Is it time for a rethink?

[fang]

We are in a situation from bad management bad sighnings etc etc etc that there may be no getting out of it in fact I don't think we will ever be truly competitive again aside from oure bungling a comp where third party is rife no sugar daddy in sight oure condition if a patient in a hospital is terminal .

 

[tig_prmz]

I think we need to follow the NFL model:
- have scouts all around the country
- create a great junior facility, for players/coaches/admin
- lots of learning pathways, apprentices offerred through corporate members, education, get them to take control of their entire life
- players living together, like a hostel- forming like a WT academy
- I'm sure with the corporate support from Bryden and Meriton, we should be able to finance this
- a strong base like this will reflect into NRL success eventually

Last year, I wanted us to be in the top 8 no matter how but it's never going to work out that way. The cream will always rise to the top and we need to do something different that other 16 clubs aren't doing

 

[fang]

We are in the phantom zone with next to none of a chance of getting out of it

 

[Tigerlily]

We are in the phantom zone with next to none of a chance of getting out of it

Hi tigerfan I notice your having some fun trying to figure out how to reply to someone’s quote just tap the orange quote to the right of forum members name.


 

[Tigerlily]


Than @tigerfan59 you should get something like this pop up on your screen then add your reply at the end of what’s been typed. Press the arrow thing that looks similar > at the end of the blue bar to send.

 

[happy_tiger]

Yes defend our way to victories like the top sides do would be a wonderful change

I thought we had finally worked that out in 2018 after the 1st 6 weeks .....then we threw out that plan ...too hard basket me thinks

 

[cochise]

Looking back at 2005 (sigh!) the team played a brand of football that made best use of the talent we had - which let's face it, with a few exceptions, wasn't the strongest roster we've ever had. But whatever Sheens did with them, it got us to win a premiership. We won't have the forwards or the backs to be top 4 material UNLESS we work on the off season on building something that is uniquely ours, that is we start to play to whatever our strengths are - if speed, then let' use it; of defense, then let's concentrate on that, but do it in a way that doesn't follow in the traditional format of the game, which, albeit is simple, but has to be underpinned by strengths we simply don't have at present.
All I am saying is that unless we do something that is different, we are bound to repeat what we've done in the last 10 years or more.

No easy answer, I'll grant you that.

Terrific points you make. And, what you're referring to is an essential part of that mysterious thing called club "culture". Most people would simplify it to try your guts out every week and win more than you lose.

But there's a whole lot of values and personnel-management that underpins a culture, and it must include all stakeholders "knowing" (as opposed to thinking) what we're good at and what we stand for and accept in demonstrating and exploiting our unique strengths.

Almost all clubs are strving to be successful by following the same paths as the others, even though they have different talents, strengths, leaders, systems, players.

Maybe the best example of a "rethink" in coaching rugby league would be the Walker brothers approach in QRL? And, I'm not clever enough to know if they have been a success or not.

I can't think of any others, apart from those inflicted upon clubs by Vlandy's bastardisation of the rules of rugby league for a better TV product.

Yeah Vlandy's is the 1st to change the rules of Rugby League, so glad we still play under the unlimted tackle rule.

 

[bbobb]

Looking back at 2005 (sigh!) the team played a brand of football that made best use of the talent we had - which let's face it, with a few exceptions, wasn't the strongest roster we've ever had. But whatever Sheens did with them, it got us to win a premiership. We won't have the forwards or the backs to be top 4 material UNLESS we work on the off season on building something that is uniquely ours, that is we start to play to whatever our strengths are - if speed, then let' use it; of defense, then let's concentrate on that, but do it in a way that doesn't follow in the traditional format of the game, which, albeit is simple, but has to be underpinned by strengths we simply don't have at present.
All I am saying is that unless we do something that is different, we are bound to repeat what we've done in the last 10 years or more.

No easy answer, I'll grant you that.

Some good points but I think the issue is the “coach and cattle” argument. In the world of NRL we often have coaches who choose players to play a certain style but have different tenures. Case in point is Madge has inherited this squad from Ivan. Clearly Madge doesn’t want it because it doesn’t suit his style and as others have pointed out, doesn’t believe adapting to the style that suits the players will bring about success.

If Madge gets the team he wants but is poached or punted for whatever reason, there is a reasonable probability that the new coach will struggle with the cattle at his disposal. I really believe that the coaching recruitment process needs to be very vigorous with one of the key points being a plan for the current squad.

 

[Tigerwould]

I don’t think Madge’s gameplans have been that far off. With the roster we had in 2019/2020 we honestly were never going to be a top 4 team which is where you need to be aiming.

Melbourne have reinvented themselves this year. Speed and getting out of their own half quickly has worked for them. Penrith’s driving defence and still having energy in attack has got them to the GF.
We had good success in the oppositions 20. But struggled to get out of our own. Defensively we were poor. James Tamou was an astute buy. A couple more are needed, then we can start to build a better style

 

[The_Patriot]

More important than style is club culture and good halves.

The 2005 team had both. it was a really tight unit and had a 6 and 7 who were at the top of their game.

Maguire may be single minded and old school but im glad he is.

Lots of work to be done on both the halves and the culture that has set in the last 10 years.

 

[earl]

Yes defend our way to victories like the top sides do would be a wonderful change

I thought we had finally worked that out in 2018 after the 1st 6 weeks .....then we threw out that plan ...too hard basket me thinks

I don't think that any teams can do this over the course of the season. Sure defense is really important but you need to score points consistently especially in this comp.

 

[earl]

. Case in point is Madge has inherited this squad from Ivan. Clearly Madge doesn’t want it because it doesn’t suit his style and as others have pointed out, doesn’t believe adapting to the style that suits the players will bring about success.

I don't think we would be winning though if Cleary was the coach. We desperately need a couple of quality players added to our squad.

@The_Patriot - we really need better halves but I think the whole spine needs massive improvements. Grant was our best spine player as well last season.

To be fair I see us as a team close to the top 8. We need to step up a couple of rungs from where we are now though and we need the cattle. I also think the club including Madge appear to be signing better players and that will make a difference.

 

[pawsandclaws1]

I think we need to follow the NFL model:
- have scouts all around the country
- create a great junior facility, for players/coaches/admin
- lots of learning pathways, apprentices offerred through corporate members, education, get them to take control of their entire life
- players living together, like a hostel- forming like a WT academy
- I'm sure with the corporate support from Bryden and Meriton, we should be able to finance this
- a strong base like this will reflect into NRL success eventually

Last year, I wanted us to be in the top 8 no matter how but it's never going to work out that way. The cream will always rise to the top and we need to do something different that other 16 clubs aren't doing

We need to scout PNG and the Pacific Islands.

 

[Telltails]

I think we had the formula that fitted best with our club in 2005 but when we bowed out in 2011 we began to dismantle what made us successful - building a nucleus of a squad from within and promoting juniors. We threw big dollars at one player, at the expense of great club men being moved on who still had plenty of football in them, and in Fifita a future international. It didnt work and we have been back pedalling ever since. Now our best juniors instead of wanting to come through the ranks are open to opportunity with other clubs. Imo we need to get back to that formula to match the better financial position that the club has worked hard to rectify.

 

[jirskyr]

Walking on eggshells. After hearing a lot about the Panthers approach this year and their laid back attitudes I am wondering if Madge is a little too tough on his players. This cost him his job at Souths too. I’ve also heard Panthers generally don’t have a specific game plan, just more about knowing their jobs and their opposition and playing what they see

I don't buy into this at all.

Panthers players aren't currently "walking on eggshells" because they are in the winning groove and there's less pressure on a side that's confident and playing well every week.

Totally different scenario in 2019 when they finished 10th. By and large the roster 2019-2020 is the same, except Maloney out and Koroisau in, with some "dead wood" being released, although frankly that dead wood performed pretty well for Parramatta in 2020.

So what I am saying is it's much easier to be laid back when you successfully follow the coach's game plan, or even better, there isn't much of a game plan but everyone plays to the best of their ability and performs as a cohesive unit. Same as it's much easier to win a football game if you don't drop the football or miss tackles.

It's a bit "chicken and egg" - you can't be a relaxed confident football side if you aren't.

Penrith have basically got all their players playing well at the same time. Same players couldn't manage it in 2019. It's about getting the feel and the culture right, and that bit of magic dust (a la 2005) that helps it all fall together. In that respect Ivan has done well with what he has at Penrith, much as I felt he was building towards doing well with what he put together at Tigers. I'm pretty confident he's a good coach, and his results over time are more about polishing his roster so they are a good team, and sometimes he manages it and sometimes he doesn't.

 

[Red88_Tiger]

Walking on eggshells. After hearing a lot about the Panthers approach this year and their laid back attitudes I am wondering if Madge is a little too tough on his players. This cost him his job at Souths too. I’ve also heard Panthers generally don’t have a specific game plan, just more about knowing their jobs and their opposition and playing what they see

I don't buy into this at all.

Panthers players aren't currently "walking on eggshells" because they are in the winning groove and there's less pressure on a side that's confident and playing well every week.

Totally different scenario in 2019 when they finished 10th. By and large the roster 2019-2020 is the same, except Maloney out and Koroisau in, with some "dead wood" being released, although frankly that dead wood performed pretty well for Parramatta in 2020.

So what I am saying is it's much easier to be laid back when you successfully follow the coach's game plan, or even better, there isn't much of a game plan but everyone plays to the best of their ability and performs as a cohesive unit. Same as it's much easier to win a football game if you don't drop the football or miss tackles.

It's a bit "chicken and egg" - you can't be a relaxed confident football side if you aren't.

Penrith have basically got all their players playing well at the same time. Same players couldn't manage it in 2019. It's about getting the feel and the culture right, and that bit of magic dust (a la 2005) that helps it all fall together. In that respect Ivan has done well with what he has at Penrith, much as I felt he was building towards doing well with what he put together at Tigers. I'm pretty confident he's a good coach, and his results over time are more about polishing his roster so they are a good team, and sometimes he manages it and sometimes he doesn't.

To add to that I believe COVID has helped them aswell. All their young players are totally concentrated on footy. Not chasing skirt or seeing what’s going on at the pub at midnight or mixing with dubious people around the club.
Long time ago had a mate in flegg there was very much a party club.

 

[twentyforty]

I think we had the formula that fitted best with our club in 2005 but when we bowed out in 2011 we began to dismantle what made us successful - building a nucleus of a squad from within and promoting juniors. We threw big dollars at one player, at the expense of great club men being moved on who still had plenty of football in them, and in Fifita a future international. It didnt work and we have been back pedalling ever since. Now our best juniors instead of wanting to come through the ranks are open to opportunity with other clubs. Imo we need to get back to that formula to match the better financial position that the club has worked hard to rectify.

Could this be a case of one size fits all?
I mean, if you have a solid business case why try modifying it? We’re not tailors making suits.
I find it interesting that both teams playing GF footy are strongly represented by players who played their first nrl game at the club. The importance of this cannot be underestimated. The clubs which have poor junior development, or lose their juniors to better organised clubs aren’t playing finals footy. It’s really hard to build a team around rejects from successful teams.

 

[twentyforty]

We simply need to find a way to develop junior pathways ensuring a constant flow of young enthusiastic loyal talent. If the team is short on talent in a particular position, then target the best player in that position without compromising on the objective. Keep the coaching team. If someone leaves, don’t stop the program. Tell the new guy..this is how we do things here.
The alternative is unthinkable really. We turn the organisational chart upside down and allow the players to hire and fire the coach. Following this, we sign rejects from other clubs by offering them a loading. They reluctantly agree to come on board and we repeat this process until it gets harder to win , all the time wondering why we’re not making the playoffs.

 

[crazycat]

There seems to be two kinds of Coaches in the NRL.

One that adapts to the squad. Des Haslier is a great example of this because his coaching style changed massively with the Bulldogs. (his recruitment style... well no, but handing out money like it's candy does work until the NRL busts you). Wayne Bennett can seem to get the most out of a side and get people playing well, though not sure how much he changes players to play his way and how much he just gets the players playing best.

Flip it, some coaches have their formula and get the players playing to it.
The better examples are Ricky Stuart and Craig Bellamy. Ricky was lost at Cronulla once his good people left and useless at Parra, give him a squad he can mould and Canberra take off. Bellamy has done wonders at Melbourne yet he was lost with the Origin Squad.

The worst examples are Trent Barrett and Jason Taylor. Trent at Manly had to have the club redone in his way with his trainers and his mould, Des gets back the next year and the club is a finals threat with the same players. We all know the story with JT and how the halves have to play his way. JT biggest sin IMHO was punting Pat Richards, who JT just could not handle a ball playing winger (let alone a Hooker who gets involved like Farah...).

Yes we want some Flexibility in our coach, moreover we want a plan that works. Madge seems to have a plan and is not too flexible but clearly better then most coaches out there.

 

[supercoach]

It all comes down to cattle. It would not matter what style we played this year, nothing much would have changed. It’s not all negative, last year we recruited well, AD Lucy AJ and the Harry loan deal were all good signings, but to make the next step we need a couple of top shelve players, and I guess that has little chance of happening with our cap in a mess