It's time to take the fight back to HBG

weststigers said:
I want to pose a comparison. Admittedly it's an exaggerated one, but serves to illustrate the point I want to make.

India and China have over 1 billion people each. Neither are well known for producing NRL talent, so just because our area is big, it doesn't automatically equal that it will be full of talent.

Something more measured to consider. When the ARL quotes participation numbers, they quote numbers that include touch football, K-2, womens league and other forms of rugby league.

That inflates the numbers and gaslights us into thinking the area is huge and brimming with playerd.

Lastly, you tell me...how many kids that are truly talented really needed "development" in any meaningful way? For example, Cooper Cronk was in the First XV for his school for many years before playing Australian Schoolboys in rugby union and went to Norths Devils after.

Cronk was not getting "development"...he was training like all the other kids 2 or 3 days a week and being coached by teachers...he was just "better". These players are refined over time, but you don't need to "develop" them.

I don't even know what people mean when they say "develop" a player...it means nothing to me because no one can identify what that looks like.
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I tend to agree with you in some aspects of what you say in development. I think if really needs to be rephrased - what we need to offer is development opportunities. As we know not many of the kids in the junior reps will make it. What we need to offer is opportunities within our system for them to be part of it and want to be part of the bigger picture in the end.

We may develop the odd unicorn that makes it but it can also develop the supporter base and coaches, people that want to be involved with the grass roots side of the house. What we shoudl be really trying to develop, along with talent, is connection and the dreaded "DNA" while pciking the eyes out of talent from outside of the catchment to fill gaps.

It is a big task for us because of our ownership model and the limited funds that are tipped in compared to others.
 
Jolls said:
I want to throw out a different scenario; while the root cause of our issues is HBG the solution does not necessarily mean we need to wrestle the ownership from them or force them to sell. I believe that this is a hail mary scenrio that is hardly likely to happen.

The issue at hand it two fold:
  • HBG are more focussed on the Leagues Clubs and the patrons side of the constitution than the support of Wests Tigers, and even then it could be argued that they are doing exaclty what the constitution says, and more by supporting Balmain in the NSWRL competition, as the wording remains support of Western Sububs in the NSWRL competion. There is no consitutional mention of Wests Tigers and the NRL.
  • The debenture holders have the power.
So while we can lay seige to the kingdom and live in hope that they grow bored of having to fight and ditch the NRL franchise to focus on the Magpies or we can initiate change. This is where the strategy gets a bit sketchy as I don't live in the region. However, I have become a member of HBG so that in two more years time I will have the right to vote. The alternate strategy is to change the attitude of the board. This is not an easy task and poking them with sticks gets their backs up.

There needs to be a concerted effort from several fronts, with consistent and key messaging. The aim being to transform HBG from being reluctant to invest in Wests Tigers to them tripping over their feet to get there. We need to work from the inside to penetrate the Debeture System and work, concurrently, to have it constitutionally removed. There needs to be consistent messaging from Wests Tigers (the Club), and the membership (Wests Tiger, Wests Ashfield and HBG) regarding the benefits to HBG and the broader membership through investment in Wests Tigers and so on.

While there was some traction gained when the independent board was won - it was very short lived. Potentially Richo moved to quickly or was too abrasive - only those on the inside know.

The proof is in the pudding - Souths have turned it around, Penrith have turned it around and SM has done it once with the Mariners. Hell, look at how China is winning the world domination fight - through economics not military might.

Someone, with the right connections, in the right location, with the right support could lead a soft takeover. And with the right strategy could be even more successful if the pitchforks at the door are the key supporting role as a deception operation. Get the right minds together and it is achievable!
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Let's keep it simple. All they have to do is follow the recommendations in the review.

I honestly don't want them gone; there are several advantages a league's club has over a private ownership model, especially in pathways. We just need to get the HBG debenture holders away from the football club and ensure we have the right connected and experienced people leading the ship. Like the panthers do; Like the roosters do; like the eels do.

The core of it is a selection process to show that our high standards even apply to our board, not just the playing group. Things aren't given to you. Otherwise, how would the players respond to that hypocrisy and culture? I'll tell you how, look at the last 20 years.

Richo missed the right level of inclusion for HBG, which I think Shaun will do better at. But the problem is that they are back on the board now. To unwind that would on rely on HBG stepping up and doing the right thing (which they have shown they can't do) or NRL intervention.
 
GNR4LIFE said:
Campbelltown has always been a great breeding ground. Israel Folau, Michael De Vere, Brett Hodgson, Ken and Kevin McGuinnes, John Skandalis, Jarryd Hayne, James Tedesco, Krisnan Inu, Chris Lawrence, Ryan Hoffman, Simon Dwyer, TDS, Jared Hayward.
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These comments are where people are deluded a bit.

It's easy to go back 30 years and pick your best, but they need to be coming through at the same time and also accept you will always lose some as players look for opportunity elsewhere.

The most recent players in this list are TDS and Hayward. TDS has done nothing and I doubt would make starting hooker for any club and Hayward is just coming through.

The rest are from 10 or 20+ years ago.

This isn't enough "breeding" to have a successful NRL team.
 
hammertime said:
Let's keep it simple. All they have to do is follow the recommendations in the review.

I honestly don't want them gone; there are several advantages a league's club has over a private ownership model, especially in pathways. We just need to get the HBG debenture holders away from the football club and ensure we have the right connected and experienced people leading the ship. Like the panthers do; Like the roosters do; like the eels do.

The core of it is a selection process to show that our high standards even apply to our board, not just the playing group. Things aren't given to you. Otherwise, how would the players respond to that hypocrisy and culture? I'll tell you how, look at the last 20 years.

Richo missed the right level of inclusion for HBG, which I think Shaun will do better at. But the problem is that they are back on the board now. To unwind that would on rely on HBG stepping up and doing the right thing (which they have shown they can't do) or NRL intervention.
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Unfortunately the only way they will be forced to look at an independent board again is if everything goes to shit and the team rips itself apart. We can probably live on the fumes of the first 8 rounds and the excuse of injuries and the Luai "betrayal" until the end of this season. So it will probably take the HBG board doing something completely stupid between now and the start of next season to get the fans and PVL riled up again to force a change.
 
weststigers said:
I want to pose a comparison. Admittedly it's an exaggerated one, but serves to illustrate the point I want to make.

India and China have over 1 billion people each. Neither are well known for producing NRL talent, so just because our area is big, it doesn't automatically equal that it will be full of talent.

Something more measured to consider. When the ARL quotes participation numbers, they quote numbers that include touch football, K-2, womens league and other forms of rugby league.

That inflates the numbers and gaslights us into thinking the area is huge and brimming with playerd.

Lastly, you tell me...how many kids that are truly talented really needed "development" in any meaningful way? For example, Cooper Cronk was in the First XV for his school for many years before playing Australian Schoolboys in rugby union and went to Norths Devils after.

Cronk was not getting "development"...he was training like all the other kids 2 or 3 days a week and being coached by teachers...he was just "better". These players are refined over time, but you don't need to "develop" them.

I don't even know what people mean when they say "develop" a player...it means nothing to me because no one can identify what that looks like.
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What do you mean no one knows what it looks like? Penrith clearly know. They have identified priorities and achieve them. Their investment has paid for itself, and will continue to do so for years to come.

Vision - To provide the best Junior Rugby League experience world wide. The best means being accountable for and delivering quality communication, service and integrity to ensure our Volunteers, Players, Officials and Families are Panthers Juniors for life.

Panthers Juniors high retention and growth statistics is based on the delivery of education on acceptable standards, behaviors and safety of its sports club members in the Penrith and Districts Junior Rugby League.

Panthers Juniors has a dedicated team of staff to delivery an unrivalled service to its members to reduce the workload and pressure of our volunteers.

Panthers Juniors deliver innovative programs based on culture, life experience and enjoyment which focuses on building great people on and off the field.

Panthers Juniors provides an Elite Panthers Pathways program from 13 years of age with highly skilled and educated coaches in ALL Rugby League areas.

Panthers Juniors has story line features from U4s through to Open Age groups, this enables members to plan and prepare for next seasons exciting phase of junior footy.

They get results. We don't.
 
hammertime said:
Let's keep it simple. All they have to do is follow the recommendations in the review.

I honestly don't want them gone; there are several advantages a league's club has over a private ownership model, especially in pathways. We just need to get the HBG debenture holders away from the football club and ensure we have the right connected and experienced people leading the ship. Like the panthers do; Like the roosters do; like the eels do.

The core of it is a selection process to show that our high standards even apply to our board, not just the playing group. Things aren't given to you. Otherwise, how would the players respond to that hypocrisy and culture? I'll tell you how, look at the last 20 years.

Richo missed the right level of inclusion for HBG, which I think Shaun will do better at. But the problem is that they are back on the board now. To unwind that would on rely on HBG stepping up and doing the right thing (which they have shown they can't do) or NRL intervention.
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I think NRL has had enough time to intervene which they haven't and I doubt they will. They sell articles, they stay in the news because of WT. The drama surrounding us pays a lot.

As you said HBG has had enough time to do the right thing but they haven't. However, I cannot speak about what happens behind closed doors at Board level. We can only hope that Shaun is able to convince the Board about what he wants to do.

The WT at the end is an independent business. HBG doesn't have the money to put into it nor will they take anything out of it.

I understand your point about earning positions rather than being given to you, but all we can do is hope the Board members don't influence us.
 
innsaneink said:
This list is from 99 and aare only those whove repped Wests Jnrs (AI)


[td]- Andrew Everingham
- Mitch Achurch
- Nathan Waters
- Daniel Fitzhenry
- Liam Fulton
- Bryce Gibbs
- Chris Lawrence
- Beau Ryan
- Simon Dwyer
- Brett Hodgson
- John Skandalis
- Harvey Howard
- Isaac DeGois
- Luke Covell
- Ben Roberts[/td]
[td]- Shane Perry
- Ryan Hoffman
- Shannon McDonnell
- Dean Collis
- Daine Laurie
- Shannon Gallant
- Peni Tagive
- Rocky Trimarchi
- Ray Cashmere
- Ken McGuiness
- Kevin McGuiness
- Ciriaco Mescia
- Steve Georgallis
- Gray Viane[/td]
[td]
- William Mataka
- James Tedesco
- Shaun Spence
- David Nofoaluma
- Matt Groat
- Jesse Sue


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Last decade approximately
- Ray Stone
- Justin Matamua
- Tallyn Da Silva
- Kit Laulilii
- Lachlan Galvin
- Jordan Miller
- Luke Laulilii
- Kit Laulilii
- Heath Mason
- Heamasi Makasini
[/td]
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Left out Connor L at the Dolphins
 
terriaa said:
What do you mean no one knows what it looks like? Penrith clearly know. They have identified priorities and achieve them. Their investment has paid for itself, and will continue to do so for years to come.

Vision - To provide the best Junior Rugby League experience world wide. The best means being accountable for and delivering quality communication, service and integrity to ensure our Volunteers, Players, Officials and Families are Panthers Juniors for life.

Panthers Juniors high retention and growth statistics is based on the delivery of education on acceptable standards, behaviors and safety of its sports club members in the Penrith and Districts Junior Rugby League.

Panthers Juniors has a dedicated team of staff to delivery an unrivalled service to its members to reduce the workload and pressure of our volunteers.

Panthers Juniors deliver innovative programs based on culture, life experience and enjoyment which focuses on building great people on and off the field.

Panthers Juniors provides an Elite Panthers Pathways program from 13 years of age with highly skilled and educated coaches in ALL Rugby League areas.

Panthers Juniors has story line features from U4s through to Open Age groups, this enables members to plan and prepare for next seasons exciting phase of junior footy.

They get results. We don't.
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Ok. If it's as simple as reading the Panthers website to understand what development is, I can't understand why our mob can't copy that and get results.

We obviously don't know what it looks like because there is nothing that defines Tigers development. That's what I was saying.

If we are copying and pasting from other teams, the All Blacks have a great system too.
 
TheEnz said:
Unfortunately the only way they will be forced to look at an independent board again is if everything goes to shit and the team rips itself apart. We can probably live on the fumes of the first 8 rounds and the excuse of injuries and the Luai "betrayal" until the end of this season. So it will probably take the HBG board doing something completely stupid between now and the start of next season to get the fans and PVL riled up again to force a change.
Click to expand...
We have had independent people on the Board before, where did that get us?

I truly don't think Board and HBG is our biggest problem.

They're crappy owners, they don't provide us with funding, connections or support. I understand that and that sucks! But, we cannot get rid of them.

The idea that they hinder our progression is something I doubt.

If we are getting another $10m from the NRL, Shaun has every right to spend it as he sees fit without Board approval. Maybe Lee H or Pascoe or Mayer or Humpty, genuine question, have they ever come out and said HBG blocked how they wanted to spend our money? Someone who's been more involved on this topic for 20 years ago may know the answer to this.
 
tig_prmz said:
We have had independent people on the Board before, where did that get us?

I truly don't think Board and HBG is our biggest problem.

They're crappy owners, they don't provide us with funding, connections or support. I understand that and that sucks! But, we cannot get rid of them.

The idea that they hinder our progression is something I doubt.

If we are getting another $10m from the NRL, Shaun has every right to spend it as he sees fit without Board approval. Maybe Lee H or Pascoe or Mayer or Humpty, genuine question, have they ever come out and said HBG blocked how they wanted to spend our money? Someone who's been more involved on this topic for 20 years ago may know the answer to this.
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Problem is that everyone else gets that additional $10m so the bar goes up across the comp while we are still playing catch up. I would argue that we did see some progress with an independent board made up of skilled professionals. It just did not last long enough to really deliver results. I would be fine with HBG if they just provided the funding we need and stayed out of footy operations matters. WT can play in a black and white jersey for all i care...just bloody win more games than we lose.
 
6
hammertime said:
Let's keep it simple. All they have to do is follow the recommendations in the review.

I honestly don't want them gone; there are several advantages a league's club has over a private ownership model, especially in pathways. We just need to get the HBG debenture holders away from the football club and ensure we have the right connected and experienced people leading the ship. Like the panthers do; Like the roosters do; like the eels do.

The core of it is a selection process to show that our high standards even apply to our board, not just the playing group. Things aren't given to you. Otherwise, how would the players respond to that hypocrisy and culture? I'll tell you how, look at the last 20 years.

Richo missed the right level of inclusion for HBG, which I think Shaun will do better at. But the problem is that they are back on the board now. To unwind that would on rely on HBG stepping up and doing the right thing (which they have shown they can't do) or NRL intervention.
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Unfortunately, an independent board is only a partial solution. Until HBG change the balance of their responsibilities to community and Wests Tigers in relation to the investment of money the realisation of what we can be as a club is not going to happen.
 
TheEnz said:
Problem is that everyone else gets that additional $10m so the bar goes up across the comp while we are still playing catch up.
Click to expand...

Yes ..the overall standard across the comp will be higher…it will need to be as there will also be three more teams in the comp meaning they will need another 20 percent more players

I think a lot of the WT problem these past 10 years starts with the lack of local talent as noted up thread … is this talent not there to begin with , as a result of coaches at that 14-17 yr level not being able to capitalise and nurture it at a critical development period, or is it there but not being identified ? Either way more money to employ more people should help..
 
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tig_prmz said:
We have had independent people on the Board before, where did that get us?

I truly don't think Board and HBG is our biggest problem.

They're crappy owners, they don't provide us with funding, connections or support. I understand that and that sucks! But, we cannot get rid of them.

The idea that they hinder our progression is something I doubt.

If we are getting another $10m from the NRL, Shaun has every right to spend it as he sees fit without Board approval. Maybe Lee H or Pascoe or Mayer or Humpty, genuine question, have they ever come out and said HBG blocked how they wanted to spend our money? Someone who's been more involved on this topic for 20 years ago may know the answer to this.
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I am not picking on you but I think you're naive and lack experience.

Read about Man United and their owners to understand how clubs can be destroyed by people that never walk onto the pitch. Better yet, apply your comment to your own workplace and see if it rings true.
 
Tom Shines said:
Yes ..the overall standard across the comp will be higher…it will need to be as there will also be three more teams in the comp meaning they will need another 20 percent more players

I think a lot of the WT problem these past 10 years starts with the lack of local talent as noted up thread … is this talent not there to begin with , as a result of coaches at that 14-17 yr level not being able to capitalise and nurture it at a critical development period, or is it there but not being identified ? Either way more money to employ more people should help..
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A better stat to prove or disprove this would be to look at how manly players across the comp were born and/or raised in our catchment areas. Not how many were in our junior system as some have been poached very early on by scouts from other NRL teams.....and we know that we are pretty thin when it comes to junior talent scouts in our club.
 
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