Ivan Cleary - THREAD..

[momo_amp_medo]

Job descriptions would be included in his contract, some thing along the lines of 'NRL coach Wests Tigers'
Punting him to reserve grade assistant isnt an option….LOL, or even illegal

So hold on, no worker can ever be demoted??? It’s an option for every employee to be demoted by his employer. The only thing he is entitled to is his wages. Oh dear tweedle dee, you always jump the gun to show your smartness and it always seems to backfire on you lol lol .

Robbie farah comes to mind.

Big Difference
An NRL contract states that you will play for the club.
In most , if not all , they do Not State that you can’t be dropped.

A first grade coach is employed to coach First Grade, very clearly.
There’s not any similarities between RF’s situation and Ivan’s
And Ink is right
It may be you TP,that jumped the gun :rant

Yep, know a bit about employment contracts and Ink is right.

 

[Nelson]

Not sure when you became able to throw stones about a change of opinion. You were his biggest defender, then was one of the first to turn on him.

I changed my opinion on Cleary after I found he wanted to coach the panthers and I’ve wanted him gone since.

You just stated that you never wanted him out. So your lying to defend yourself. On Wednesday you said you wanted him gone. It’s one thing to change your opinion it’s another thing to lie and get caught doing it. Now stop embarrasing yourself and run along.

Christ, who cares, you are arguing sematics. You shifted the conversation cos you were getting nowhere with the Cleary to reserve grade talk. The only one who seems to think i should be embarrassed over something so trivial is you. No one else cares. Too busy debunking your claims that the club can dump Ivan to reserve grade.

At least I don’t lie to support my position on a topic lol. Any employee can be demoted it’s common sense, you can keep arguing it as long as you want.

Listen whatever your anecdotal experience might be your statement that any employee can be demoted is just wrong as a matter of employment law and contract law. You should let it go.

 

[momo_amp_medo]

Finding it quite odd that many more are now agitated about Cleary likely going to Penrith in two years time. Particularly because some of those same people were having a go at me and others when some two months ago he commenced discussions to leave WT as early as next year.

This situation has already derailed the end of our season, affected the fan base, whilst almost certainly curtailing recruitment and retention. It seems that the club is about to put a stop to the haemorrhaging, but I still think it should have been handled much more thoroughly and honestly in the initial days.

I don’t hear the Fat Lady song …... yet!
We all need to save our gunpowder on who is right and who is a smart tea leaves reader.

 

[supercoach]

Every possible thing on Cleary gate has been discussed fifty times. Basically there are two options.
1 we keep him for two years or more
2 we do a deal with Gus the fat toad

Iam one of the few that have no problems with him staying just the two years and finishing the re build. On the other hand I am okay with starting it fresh with a new guy.

The one thing that must happen…..This has to be resolved very very quickly so the place can return to normal business. One last thing...if Cleary stays, both him and the club have to do plenty of repair work and not a 30 second prepared statement

 

[GNR4LIFE]

I changed my opinion on Cleary after I found he wanted to coach the panthers and I’ve wanted him gone since.

You just stated that you never wanted him out. So your lying to defend yourself. On Wednesday you said you wanted him gone. It’s one thing to change your opinion it’s another thing to lie and get caught doing it. Now stop embarrasing yourself and run along.

Christ, who cares, you are arguing sematics. You shifted the conversation cos you were getting nowhere with the Cleary to reserve grade talk. The only one who seems to think i should be embarrassed over something so trivial is you. No one else cares. Too busy debunking your claims that the club can dump Ivan to reserve grade.

At least I don’t lie to support my position on a topic lol. Any employee can be demoted it’s common sense, you can keep arguing it as long as you want.

Listen whatever your anecdotal experience might be your statement that any employee can be demoted is just wrong as a matter of employment law and contract law. You should let it go.

It’s a very simplistic view. I posted a link earlier to the announcement where it was stated he would be the head coach of the NRL side. Unlike when players sign, they are not announced as simply first graders. There is zero precedent of a club demoting a coach to reserve grade. Not even in 2006 when Michael Hagen and Brian Smith switched roles at Newcastle and Parramatta for 2007\. But a couple random posters on the internet swear blind it’s possible. Lol righto.

 

[Tim Sheens]

Finding it quite odd that many more are now agitated about Cleary likely going to Penrith in two years time. Particularly because some of those same people were having a go at me and others when some two months ago he commenced discussions to leave WT as early as next year.

This situation has already derailed the end of our season, affected the fan base, whilst almost certainly curtailing recruitment and retention. It seems that the club is about to put a stop to the haemorrhaging, but I still think it should have been handled much more thoroughly and honestly in the initial days.

I don’t hear the Fat Lady song …... yet!
We all need to save our gunpowder on who is right and who is a smart tea leaves reader.

Nothing ultimate in my post M&M, as the issues have not changed. Simply observation of the altered dynamics, despite the relatively stagnant situation.

 

[WT2K]

Luke brooks quoted in fox sports saying it would be difficult to play under Ivan Cleary if I he had signed to be at the panthers in 2021.

Good on Luke for not sugar coating it. I'd guess there are a few more players within the group that would be feeling the same way.

 

[jirskyr]

Every possible thing on Cleary gate has been discussed fifty times. Basically there are two options.
1 we keep him for two years or more
2 we do a deal with Gus the fat toad

Iam one of the few that have no problems with him staying just the two years and finishing the re build. On the other hand I am okay with starting it fresh with a new guy.

The one thing that must happen…..This has to be resolved very very quickly so the place can return to normal business. One last thing...if Cleary stays, both him and the club have to do plenty of repair work and not a 30 second prepared statement

I agree.

Does nobody think it's a bit ironic that most on here were happy to sign NC as halfback from 2020, but a significant number of those folks wouldn't want to keep Ivan if he had signed somewhere else from 2021? Is Nathan Cleary not going do his job at Penrith in 2019 if he's going to the Tigers a year later? Would Ivan not do his job at Tigers if he was leaving a few years later?

In fact for me, the idea that it's 2 years from now and not 1, that's even more stability; yet some people think that is untenable.

The point I continue to make is look at the current contract situation for all NRL coaches - very few of them have their futures sewn up beyond 2020, which is the Ivan situation - only Bellamy, Green and Robinson, and they are all extensions done in 2018.

Every other coach has contract ending 2019 or 2020 - Bennett has an option for 2019?

So whilst you might make an argument that having a coach sign elsewhere in advance impacts recruitment in a way that signing a player in a similar timeframe does not, what player can truly sign a long-term deal with any club and "expect" that the coach doesn't change?

If you sign for Tigers right now for 2 years, that's the entire length of Cleary's current contract. If you sign for 3 years until end 2021, then you skip over him by 1 year and you know he's leaving. But that would also be true of most clubs - signing a 3-year deal 2019-2021 for 13/16 NRL clubs would mean you have no assurances that the current coach will still be there when you finish up.

And then with the way coaches get culled these days, not even short-term player contracts have any guarantees that a coach will see out his contract.

What would actually be worse would be if we cut Cleary right now, in terms of assuring players, because most of them have signed on for terms equivalent to Cleary's coaching contract. So yes maybe the speculation impacts future signings, but what of Matulino, Packer, Matterson, Mbye, Farah, Benji, Brooks etc. - real current players, not future speculative players - who all signed on with the understanding that Cleary would be the coach for the term of their contract?

I agree that I'd like this sorted for certain as soon as possible, publicly, but not for future signings, for the stability of the current roster.

 

[gallagher]

If he stays on and has agreed to terms with the panthers for 2021 then we need a coaching director to handle all player retention/recruitment above Cleary. Someone who could also fill in on a temporary role if Cleary wants out mid season.

I've always thought Sheens would have been great at this role, hes the smartest bloke ever to be involved with the club, including the current mob.

 

[jadtiger]

If he stays on and has agreed to terms with the panthers for 2021 then we need a coaching director to handle all player retention/recruitment above Cleary. Someone who could also fill in on a temporary role if Cleary wants out mid season.

I've always thought Sheens would have been great at this role, hes the smartest bloke ever to be involved with the club, including the current mob.

Sheens refused coaching director in the past which is why he was terminated,besides he would only sign 92k back row forwards to play in every position in the pack.

 

[izotope]

Its pretty much game, set, match Gould unfortunately.
He may be a slug but he's no dummy.

If Ivan signs for 2021 he knows we will have to replace Ivan so that puts the Panthers in the box seat to wait it out.
We will have to get a new coach ASAP if we want any future signings.
Gould will just wait it and out and keep beating up media stories.

Can't see us getting much compo other then a few "small sundae" tickets.

 

[old_man_tiger]

The club could say to Ivan, you will continue to be known as head coach for the remainder of your contract, but we only want you to turn up on game day and do the presso, meantime get someone else in and call him assistant NRL coach, expensive, but not giving in to Gould

This ^

No-one said we can only have one head coach. There's only meant to be one captain, hey Ivan? If Ivan signs with Penrith for 2021, he can stay as head coach, and he can go and sit in the corner and play with all his friends whilst we get down to business.

Expensive? Yes, sure. But do you really think a man of such high integrity as Ivan claims to be would dig his heels in after unloading all this on us? His reputation would take an even bigger hit.

I see a market for us. 5 head coaches and 5 captains. Maybe we can have 5 teams on the field to help improve the win %?

 

[Pawsandclaws]

Every possible thing on Cleary gate has been discussed fifty times. Basically there are two options.
1 we keep him for two years or more
2 we do a deal with Gus the fat toad

Iam one of the few that have no problems with him staying just the two years and finishing the re build. On the other hand I am okay with starting it fresh with a new guy.

The one thing that must happen…..This has to be resolved very very quickly so the place can return to normal business. One last thing...if Cleary stays, both him and the club have to do plenty of repair work and not a 30 second prepared statement

His tenure at the club it seems is now dependent upon him agreeing to an extension. Things have moved further now with at least one of our high profile players advising that it would be difficult to play under him if he was intending to go to the Panthers. I applaud the player for having the integrity to tell it as it is and avoid the PC talk wo are subjected to in the NRL.

 

[weststigers]

Its pretty much game, set, match Gould unfortunately.
He may be a slug but he's no dummy.

If Ivan signs for 2021 he knows we will have to replace Ivan so that puts the Panthers in the box seat to wait it out.
We will have to get a new coach ASAP if we want any future signings.
Gould will just wait it and out and keep beating up media stories.

Can't see us getting much compo other then a few "small sundae" tickets.

Yeah it's hard to watch, but we are in a corner.

If we're stubborn and make Cleary stay the situation will be untenable over time.

Gould knows if he waits long enough, we will release Cleary and there won't be any compensation to speak of.

We don't need this dragging into next pre-season. I hope we get some news soon.

 

[Abraham]

I actually think that its a really dumb move by the club to make this sort of ultimatum to Cleary - either sign an extension of we will give you the boot.

What if he signs the extension, and we run dead last for the next two years? Do we just say oh well, it didnt work out, here's a suitcase full of cash to walk away from the contract extension?

Coaching extensions should be earned by on-field success… not knee jerk reactions to approaches by rivals.

I get they want this resolved, but there are other ways to go about this.

 

[TonyTiger]

If he stays on and has agreed to terms with the panthers for 2021 then we need a coaching director to handle all player retention/recruitment above Cleary. Someone who could also fill in on a temporary role if Cleary wants out mid season.

I've always thought Sheens would have been great at this role, hes the smartest bloke ever to be involved with the club, including the current mob.

Sheens left in controversial circumstances, having to fight for a payout - very capable but we don’t need to unearth skeletons in our closet, managing the current sook is likely to take a toll.

 

[andrew 474]

Ivan got us off the bottom , playing some good Footy , defending well , extension at this point may not be perfect but it would if he signs it be here for 2 extra years , young CLEARY will sign with Panthers no doubt about it , but if there is a clause from 2021 and the Panthers start to go backwards he may just jump ship and come on board , it would be a win win for us , Young CLEARY said he has un finished work at Penrith plus his mates are there , good for him but if they go backwards he will come over and join his father here because we are going forward next year again
Just my thoughts

 

[innsaneink]

So hold on, no worker can ever be demoted??? It’s an option for every employee to be demoted by his employer. The only thing he is entitled to is his wages. Oh dear tweedle dee, you always jump the gun to show your smartness and it always seems to backfire on you lol lol .

Robbie farah comes to mind.

Big Difference
An NRL contract states that you will play for the club.
In most , if not all , they do Not State that you can’t be dropped.

A first grade coach is employed to coach First Grade, very clearly.
There’s not any similarities between RF’s situation and Ivan’s
And Ink is right
It may be you TP,that jumped the gun :rant

Yep, know a bit about employment contracts and Ink is right.

Thank you…. Yes he should just let it go

 

[851]

Every possible thing on Cleary gate has been discussed fifty times. Basically there are two options.
1 we keep him for two years or more
2 we do a deal with Gus the fat toad

Iam one of the few that have no problems with him staying just the two years and finishing the re build. On the other hand I am okay with starting it fresh with a new guy.

The one thing that must happen…..This has to be resolved very very quickly so the place can return to normal business. One last thing...if Cleary stays, both him and the club have to do plenty of repair work and not a 30 second prepared statement

His tenure at the club it seems is now dependent upon him agreeing to an extension. Things have moved further now with at least one of our high profile players advising that it would be difficult to play under him if he was intending to go to the Panthers. I applaud the player for having the integrity to tell it as it is and avoid the PC talk wo are subjected to in the NRL.

Spot on, and a big thank you to Brooks for saying if Ivan is going than it will be hard to work under him.
If Brooks has said it, you can bet there are plenty more thinking it.
And to those saying it is like a player who has signed for another team, no it’s not. We are talking two full seasons away, no players sign that far ahead to change teams.
Also comparing it to other coaches is also flawed, sure other coaches are only signed two years ahead, but they do not have a club to move to in two years.
Also how can you be doing your job properly when you are preparing two teams future, you can’t do it properly.
Cleary either commits or is moved on, we can’t play second fiddle to Penrith with future planning. And we would, Cleary is going to more eager to sort Penrith future knowing he is going there rather than ours, it is a really simple decision in my eyes

 

[innsaneink]

I actually think that its a really dumb move by the club to make this sort of ultimatum to Cleary - either sign an extension of we will give you the boot.

What if he signs the extension, and we run dead last for the next two years? Do we just say oh well, it didnt work out, here's a suitcase full of cash to walk away from the contract extension?

Coaching extensions should be earned by on-field success… not knee jerk reactions to approaches by rivals.

I get they want this resolved, but there are other ways to go about this.

Agree…