Lack of signings
- Thread starter white
- Start date
ElleryHanley
Well-known member
The real issue is that this is very long term...
In our 25 years we have never been able to sign a current Kangaroo or NSW player.
Our biggest signing NRL wise has been Adam Blair. Think about that...25 years = Adam Blair.
Even at their lowest points the Dogs, Manly, Parra, Panthers, Saints...even the Titans...have all been able to sign current rep players.
Yet we never have.
It is an issue. Those denying it are half the problem, by doing so it just adds to the lack of accountability.
In our 25 years we have never been able to sign a current Kangaroo or NSW player.
Our biggest signing NRL wise has been Adam Blair. Think about that...25 years = Adam Blair.
Even at their lowest points the Dogs, Manly, Parra, Panthers, Saints...even the Titans...have all been able to sign current rep players.
Yet we never have.
It is an issue. Those denying it are half the problem, by doing so it just adds to the lack of accountability.
GNR4LIFE
Well-known member
@ElleryHanley said in [Lack of signings](/post/1097718) said:
Where are you getting 25 years from? It’s 20.
crazycat
Well-known member
@tiga4eva said in [Lack of signings](/post/1097713) said:
True. Also some decent talent around these 4. Great forwards that could build some momentum.
Although the 2005 final was so weird. I remember thinking "the cows are stronger, faster, tougher then us and we are beating them by playing insane football. this is good".
Benji in his prime was great till other teams learned to target him, then sadly he was a turnstyle for a fair few years.
We could definately target a great touch footy playmaker again and have them learn tricks from Benji... Benji is unique but he has experienced a lot and will be such an asset to our club.
Meanwhile we need top shelf players if we are ever going to repeat 2005. Prince really was an underrated player of his time, I remember one SOO where he replaced Lockyer and Thurston had no idea what to go (in fairness he was being targetted by the Blues). Prince stepped up and won the game. Honestly he was like maybe a mark off that Lockyer/Thurston level and would get a guaranteed run in most clubs now. Hodgo was awesome for Parra and such a cunning fullback, love him. Farah, other then Smith is the halfback of that decade.
ElleryHanley
Well-known member
@GNR4LIFE said in [Lack of signings](/post/1097719) said:
Typo.....still way too long mate.
ElleryHanley
Well-known member
@crazycat said in [Lack of signings](/post/1097720) said:
Prince was great, but even he came as a last resort. Multiple bad injuries, tragic death of his father, in any other world Prince would have been a career Bronco.
It was not like he was the current QLD and Broncos 7 and went 'hey, I want to join the Tigers. Where do I sign?'
gallagher
Well-known member
@ElleryHanley said in [Lack of signings](/post/1097726) said:
It's worse that the fans are still talking about it.
ElleryHanley
Well-known member
@gallagher said in [Lack of signings](/post/1097728) said:
Yes...I can see us all here in 20 years time saying stuff like 'it has been 30 years since we signed Adam Blair' and someone saying 'Wrong, it has been only 28. Give the club time'
4jtigers
Well-known member
Good luck finding the answer to your thread... I didn't think it deserves a thread on it's own... there's plenty of negativity already on the other threads on the very same subject... but wait let's add to it more aye? 😂
I'll wait for your (white) suggestions or answers on how it's "easily" fixed 😉
I'll wait for your (white) suggestions or answers on how it's "easily" fixed 😉
Cairnstigers
New member
@tiga4eva said in [Lack of signings](/post/1097713) said:
It all has to start somewhere
We just need a couple of new players to fire and a couple of old heads to lift
If Talau, Musgrove and Luciano can offer some spark in attack and defence and Packer can stay on the Paddock it will go a long way to helping us improve in 2020
As far as not signing a marquee player goes, it's because not one of them that has the balls to prove their worth at our club
They need other very good players around them so they can continue to look good and are just not willing to take the risk with us
Its a bit of a joke really
gallagher
Well-known member
@4jtigers said in [Lack of signings](/post/1097731) said:
Did he say it was easily fixed?
4jtigers
Well-known member
@gallagher said in [Lack of signings](/post/1097734) said:
No, that's why I added inverted commas (to point out my sarcasm) so this thread will go on forever again... why can't football start now? It's a very long off season... ?
We are all experts at identifying the problems - we discuss them enough - but finding the solutions is not so easy. One thing I know for sure our lack of success has been coupled with being cash strapped. That has only recently changed and if we are ever going to become a successful club getting our finances in a healthy position is the first step moving forward.
gallagher
Well-known member
@Telltails said in [Lack of signings](/post/1097736) said:
That's true Telltails, times due for the next step though.
hobbo1
Well-known member
@ElleryHanley said in [Lack of signings](/post/1097729) said:
At least we can crap on about 05...
What will the younger generation’s of fans have to reminisce about ...?
Not a lot I dare say !
Fraze23
Well-known member
We pretty much did what this thread is whinging about Under Cleary 2-3 years ago and we rushed out and panic bought Packer, Matulino, Reynolds and Mbye (you could probably throw in McQueen, but he was a Taylor signing). At least now it seems like the club is taking due diligence when making signings and it seems to me that we've invested in some of the best youth in the game. I'm far more excited about Simpkin, Hoffman, Madden, Cini, Seyfarth, Talau and the big lad from Parra than I would be about signing a mercenary coming for a superannuation boost and an early retirement.
We've got money to spend. I'd much rather the club take their time and make the right signings, rather rhan blowing their wad on the first player to pop up.
After 20 years I know it's hard to be patient. But these things take time.
We've got money to spend. I'd much rather the club take their time and make the right signings, rather rhan blowing their wad on the first player to pop up.
After 20 years I know it's hard to be patient. But these things take time.
@white said in [Lack of signings](/post/1097589) said:
Timing and context. Poor administration over the years (before and after the merger) and a consistent lack of funds compared to other clubs. This has contributed to average results which are attractive usually to average and below average players.
That's about it.
Titans and Newcastle have a gorgeous location. Souths have the indigenous element. All other clubs have a stack of TPAs and/or generally solid administration.
jirskyr
Well-known member
@tiga4eva said in [Lack of signings](/post/1097713) said:
I disagree to an extent. We won 2005 because Sheens got the mix right and reffing styles favoured our play type. We had a lot of average footballers who stepped up and did a great job for 1 season, very Melbourne-like, but we played finals football with guys like Elford, O'Neill, Fitzhenry, Heighington who would not necessarily have been picked for other starting sides.
Prince and Hodgo were somewhat speculative purchases - high ability players but with a recent injury history and carrying risk. Hodgo only managed 25 games in his previous 2 seasons at Parra, and Prince had only managed 9 in his last 2 years at Broncos.
Benji was mercurial and highly injury-prone, Farah was just a kid, his 2nd full season.
Sheens went on a shopping spree in 2003 and had the bulk of his premiership side available in 2004, and we only came 9th. He then got the mix just right and everything clicked for 1 single season. 2006 was basically the same side again (arguably improved, with new signings), Benji got injured and it all fell apart, finished 11th.
I think about this very often when talking about winning premierships. Roosters are the only club in the last few decades to win back-to-backs; most clubs have a premiership window and jag 1 win. Of course few players sign 1-year deals, which tells you that it's about getting the right roster playing just the right football, with reduced injuries.
You could not honestly have predicted after 2003-2004 that Tigers would click to win 2005, and yet it happened fair and square. That's what I'm looking for from Madge, to get this team of almost-finalists to click.
jirskyr
Well-known member
Got an essay here
I want to start by saying this thread prompted me to have a think about what’s going on with Tigers fans pre-season 2020. We’ve finished 9th a million times and not played finals most years, but there appears to me to be an unprecedented doom and gloom on here.
Personally, how one might have had optimism in the first year of, say, the Potter or Jason Taylor reigns, but have lost it now, I don’t know. I’m pretty convinced that Madge is a far better calibre of coach than those two and, dare I say it, the best credentialed coach we’ve ever had besides Tim Sheens.
Similarly, @avocadoontoast posted, re hoisting the white flag
>“I’d be ok hoisting it now to be honest. I’ve just about had enough.
Why this year? Tigers have struggled for as long as I’ve been alive, but why 2020 is it now too much?
Clearly the team needs to be better and that either comes from improving the current players, or improving the roster. I have a strong impression that this whole Latrell business has really gotten to some people, simply because there was this opportunity of rapidly and handsomely improving the roster in one single shot, and now it appears to have been lost, and it’s crushed a few people.
These people otherwise have no confidence in improving the current players, because that’s been a long-term strategy that hasn’t worked out, and Madge simply managed to repeat the previous middle-ground 9th, same as always. I get that.
So I was thinking about the OP for a while, and the question I ask is: how many clubs sign “elite” players at all? Assuming there’s some significant amount of elite player trade and the Tigers are one of the few teams unable to get involved.
Let’s define “elite” as Origin representative quality or better. Then let’s look at the Origin sides in Game 1 2019:
Kalyn Ponga – signed by Newy the year he debuted Origin
Corey Oates – still at original club
Michael Morgan – still at original club
Will Chambers – still at original club
Dane Gagai – signed by Newy 3 years before playing Origin, signed by Souths 3 years after playing Origin
Cameron Munster – still at original club
Daly Cherry-Evans (c) – still at original club
Jai Arrow – signed by Titans the year he debuted Origin
Ben Hunt – signed by Dragons the year after his Origin debut (debuted with original club Broncos)
Josh Papalii – still at original club
Felise Kaufusi – still at original club
Matt Gillett – still at original club
Josh McGuire – signed by Cows 4 years after Origin debut (debuted with original club Broncos)
Moses Mbye – signed by Tigers year before Origin debut
Joe Ofahengaue – still at original club
Dylan Napa – signed by Dogs 2 years after Origin debut (debuted with original club Easts)
David Fifita – still at original club
James Tedesco – signed by Easts 2 years after playing Origin (debuted with original club Tigers)
Nick Cotric – still at original club
Latrell Mitchell – still at original club
Josh Morris – signed by Bulldogs same year as Origin debut
Josh Addo-Carr – signed by Storm 1 year before Origin debut
Cody Walker – still at original club
Nathan Cleary – still at original club
David Klemmer – signed w Newy 4 years after Origin debut
Damien Cook – signed by Dogs 4 years before Origin debut, signed by Souths 2 years before debut
Paul Vaughan – signed by Dragons 1 year before Origin debut
Boyd Cordner (c) – still at original club
Tyson Frizell – signed with Dragons 3 years before Origin debut
Jake Trbojevic – still at original club
Jack Wighton – still at original club
Payne Haas – still at original club
Cameron Murray – still at original club
Angus Crichton – signed with Easts year after Origin debut
What is striking in this example is that 19/34 (56%) players are still with their debut club. A further 9 (26%) players signed with their second NRL club *before* their Origin debut, i.e. were not rep-level players at the time they signed.
That leaves just 6/34 (18%) players who moved to a second club after becoming Origin players.
You look at those in further detail, you have:
Hunt – headhunted for $1M by Dragons, you can fairly say hasn’t worked out
McGuire – signed by Cows after being released by Broncos
Napa – signed by Dogs after being released by Roosters
Tedesco – headhunted for $1M by Roosters
Klemmer – released by Dogs for personal reasons, signed for $850K
Crichton – headhunted by Roosters for close to $1M
So 50% of the players who joined a second club after their Origin debut were released by their incumbent, and the other 50% are all $1M headhunting efforts, mostly by the Roosters.
This data indicates that it’s much more likely to have an Origin player developed from within your club, than sign such a player from another club. I.e. the player either debuted for your side or joined your side before being selected for Origin.
You can argue that some players were signed on the cusp of, or with expectation of, playing Origin, which is fine, but then Moses Mbye and probably Ryan Matterson fit that description, in which case the Tigers DO sign elite-level players.
The other striking feature of these Origin players is that I believe only 3 have had more than 2 clubs – Gagai, Josh Morris and Cook, and Cook was is a technicality because he only played 2 games on debut for the Dragons. Josh Morris has only just completed 1 year with Sharks and only played 2 seasons with Dragons before leaving. Gagai is really the only example in this list of a player headhunted by a 3rd club after being an Origin rep.
Therefore even if you try to sign an Origin-calibre player, the data suggests they are unlikely to move clubs more than once.
Fundamentally, the data suggests that there isn’t a particularly large trade in elite players, and actually most rep-level players are developed from within, or tactically headhunted before they reach Origin level. This would then say that Tigers primary focus should not be signing elite players, but rather developing our own elite players, or astutely buying players who may be elite propositions within a few seasons.
To try and actually sign an existing and established elite player, you typically need $1M or need to be on the lucky end of a secured release, which is the Latrell situation. The secured release is risky, because it says that the incumbent club WANTS to be rid of the player.
And finally, to be headhunting these elite players, the only real clubs to do it successfully in the current crop of rep players are Easts, Souths and, funnily enough, Newcastle.
So is it really the situation that Tigers are consistently unable to secure elite talent, or is it more accurate to say that elite talent infrequently moves around, and when it does, there are a shortlist of clubs that have the success / pulling power to jag these elite players. And then when elite players do move, it will cost you $1M.
I want to start by saying this thread prompted me to have a think about what’s going on with Tigers fans pre-season 2020. We’ve finished 9th a million times and not played finals most years, but there appears to me to be an unprecedented doom and gloom on here.
Personally, how one might have had optimism in the first year of, say, the Potter or Jason Taylor reigns, but have lost it now, I don’t know. I’m pretty convinced that Madge is a far better calibre of coach than those two and, dare I say it, the best credentialed coach we’ve ever had besides Tim Sheens.
Similarly, @avocadoontoast posted, re hoisting the white flag
>“I’d be ok hoisting it now to be honest. I’ve just about had enough.
Why this year? Tigers have struggled for as long as I’ve been alive, but why 2020 is it now too much?
Clearly the team needs to be better and that either comes from improving the current players, or improving the roster. I have a strong impression that this whole Latrell business has really gotten to some people, simply because there was this opportunity of rapidly and handsomely improving the roster in one single shot, and now it appears to have been lost, and it’s crushed a few people.
These people otherwise have no confidence in improving the current players, because that’s been a long-term strategy that hasn’t worked out, and Madge simply managed to repeat the previous middle-ground 9th, same as always. I get that.
So I was thinking about the OP for a while, and the question I ask is: how many clubs sign “elite” players at all? Assuming there’s some significant amount of elite player trade and the Tigers are one of the few teams unable to get involved.
Let’s define “elite” as Origin representative quality or better. Then let’s look at the Origin sides in Game 1 2019:
Kalyn Ponga – signed by Newy the year he debuted Origin
Corey Oates – still at original club
Michael Morgan – still at original club
Will Chambers – still at original club
Dane Gagai – signed by Newy 3 years before playing Origin, signed by Souths 3 years after playing Origin
Cameron Munster – still at original club
Daly Cherry-Evans (c) – still at original club
Jai Arrow – signed by Titans the year he debuted Origin
Ben Hunt – signed by Dragons the year after his Origin debut (debuted with original club Broncos)
Josh Papalii – still at original club
Felise Kaufusi – still at original club
Matt Gillett – still at original club
Josh McGuire – signed by Cows 4 years after Origin debut (debuted with original club Broncos)
Moses Mbye – signed by Tigers year before Origin debut
Joe Ofahengaue – still at original club
Dylan Napa – signed by Dogs 2 years after Origin debut (debuted with original club Easts)
David Fifita – still at original club
James Tedesco – signed by Easts 2 years after playing Origin (debuted with original club Tigers)
Nick Cotric – still at original club
Latrell Mitchell – still at original club
Josh Morris – signed by Bulldogs same year as Origin debut
Josh Addo-Carr – signed by Storm 1 year before Origin debut
Cody Walker – still at original club
Nathan Cleary – still at original club
David Klemmer – signed w Newy 4 years after Origin debut
Damien Cook – signed by Dogs 4 years before Origin debut, signed by Souths 2 years before debut
Paul Vaughan – signed by Dragons 1 year before Origin debut
Boyd Cordner (c) – still at original club
Tyson Frizell – signed with Dragons 3 years before Origin debut
Jake Trbojevic – still at original club
Jack Wighton – still at original club
Payne Haas – still at original club
Cameron Murray – still at original club
Angus Crichton – signed with Easts year after Origin debut
What is striking in this example is that 19/34 (56%) players are still with their debut club. A further 9 (26%) players signed with their second NRL club *before* their Origin debut, i.e. were not rep-level players at the time they signed.
That leaves just 6/34 (18%) players who moved to a second club after becoming Origin players.
You look at those in further detail, you have:
Hunt – headhunted for $1M by Dragons, you can fairly say hasn’t worked out
McGuire – signed by Cows after being released by Broncos
Napa – signed by Dogs after being released by Roosters
Tedesco – headhunted for $1M by Roosters
Klemmer – released by Dogs for personal reasons, signed for $850K
Crichton – headhunted by Roosters for close to $1M
So 50% of the players who joined a second club after their Origin debut were released by their incumbent, and the other 50% are all $1M headhunting efforts, mostly by the Roosters.
This data indicates that it’s much more likely to have an Origin player developed from within your club, than sign such a player from another club. I.e. the player either debuted for your side or joined your side before being selected for Origin.
You can argue that some players were signed on the cusp of, or with expectation of, playing Origin, which is fine, but then Moses Mbye and probably Ryan Matterson fit that description, in which case the Tigers DO sign elite-level players.
The other striking feature of these Origin players is that I believe only 3 have had more than 2 clubs – Gagai, Josh Morris and Cook, and Cook was is a technicality because he only played 2 games on debut for the Dragons. Josh Morris has only just completed 1 year with Sharks and only played 2 seasons with Dragons before leaving. Gagai is really the only example in this list of a player headhunted by a 3rd club after being an Origin rep.
Therefore even if you try to sign an Origin-calibre player, the data suggests they are unlikely to move clubs more than once.
Fundamentally, the data suggests that there isn’t a particularly large trade in elite players, and actually most rep-level players are developed from within, or tactically headhunted before they reach Origin level. This would then say that Tigers primary focus should not be signing elite players, but rather developing our own elite players, or astutely buying players who may be elite propositions within a few seasons.
To try and actually sign an existing and established elite player, you typically need $1M or need to be on the lucky end of a secured release, which is the Latrell situation. The secured release is risky, because it says that the incumbent club WANTS to be rid of the player.
And finally, to be headhunting these elite players, the only real clubs to do it successfully in the current crop of rep players are Easts, Souths and, funnily enough, Newcastle.
So is it really the situation that Tigers are consistently unable to secure elite talent, or is it more accurate to say that elite talent infrequently moves around, and when it does, there are a shortlist of clubs that have the success / pulling power to jag these elite players. And then when elite players do move, it will cost you $1M.
