Madge Maguire - Mega Thread

[Harvey]

Interesting that Todd Payten literally delivered a very Madge like post press conference by calling out his players and mentioning that they are not sustaining the pressure for long enough periods of time. We are here criticizing Madge for not showing good man management skills, yet have suggested Payten as a person that we would prefer as a coach for some of us.

Madge has his faults and I do raise concern over some but I think can be at least mitigated by bringing in some quality assistants and not just loyal men. Both sides of the spectrum, Those who defend him and those that want him gone are going to nit pick anything to suit their agenda. I think the reality of the matter is, I don't think this roster can go places unless Craig Bellamy is coaching the joint. The self-entitled players who have essentially felt like they run the club need to go, keep weeding the rot out. This club was always going to take a long time to turn around.

I don't see calling out the players as a major issue. The "ebbs & flow comments" and the complete lack of structure and gameplan are much bigger problems.

Major reason I don't want the club to sack Madge is because of our history and how that has not helped the club progress one bit. Like you, I raise concern over the lack of structure and gameplan. Which is why I think getting in better assistants might assist in that regard. Sacking the coach should really be the last resort if this club wants to move forward, me thinks.

Agree it is embarrassing. It was a stupid decision to extend his contract at the end of last year.

His should not be the only head on the block.

 

[Krammy]

https://www.triplem.com.au/story/players-starting-to-turn-on-michael-maguire-after-post-match-comments-178079

Chammas whiney voice..

Players Starting To Turn On Michael Maguire After Post-Match
FOX LEAGUE

Wests Tigers coach Michael Maguire is facing an uphill battle to keep his job at the club.

Brent Read and Michael Chammas revealed on the Triple M Saturday Scrum, players at the club are unhappy with comments Maguire made post-match following the side's loss to the Rabbitohs.

You never sack your coach unless you have someone better waiting.

MMM team spoke about Ciraldo. Is he better? We don't know, he isn't proven.

I do think the appointment of Tim Sheens was quite astute. Yes he can build the pathways program but I would imagine if the decision is made to move Madge on, he would also make an excellent mentor or Director of coaching should they choose to go with an inexperienced or rookie coach.

Totally agree with your ideas on Sheens. Whether it be Madge or a younger, less experienced coach, they will need to be able to work with Sheens. If Madge is at all questioning his appointment, as suggested in the Tele article, then things will only get worse. Time for a change of coach.

 

[tigerap]

Interesting that Todd Payten literally delivered a very Madge like post press conference by calling out his players and mentioning that they are not sustaining the pressure for long enough periods of time. We are here criticizing Madge for not showing good man management skills, yet have suggested Payten as a person that we would prefer as a coach for some of us.

Madge has his faults and I do raise concern over some but I think can be at least mitigated by bringing in some quality assistants and not just loyal men. Both sides of the spectrum, Those who defend him and those that want him gone are going to nit pick anything to suit their agenda. I think the reality of the matter is, I don't think this roster can go places unless Craig Bellamy is coaching the joint. The self-entitled players who have essentially felt like they run the club need to go, keep weeding the rot out. This club was always going to take a long time to turn around.

I don't see calling out the players as a major issue. The "ebbs & flow comments" and the complete lack of structure and gameplan are much bigger problems.

Not to mention the lack of wins

 

[Rugba]

Can I say I listened to that radio segment .. really hate how media talk about culture and look at top performing Clubs before i get to that point ..performance only has to do with quality of player and the coach that’s it.

Let’s look at the panthers .. such a top club ..
- video tape saga
- tic tic during pandemic
- player on rec drugs for grand final last year
Terrific culture

Roosters - 2 off field incidents by the inflictor this year

Storm - Munster known for being a “larrikin “ , didn’t Welch break covid protocols last year ? Nelson in Bali

Spare me the culture crap that is thrown about .
You either have the cattle if you don’t you need a coach that can coach , teach and bring the best out of the plodders you have in the squad

 

[BAGNF05]

If they sack Madge please also sack the following players:

Edit: it’s easier to list the ones we should keep,

Daine Laurie
Stefano
Brooks
Twal
Doueihi

That is all.

 

[Lauren]

I don't think it's as easy as 'all players are sooks now they should be treated better' because you would never ever see it at any of the top clubs

Agree.
Idk who are we going to replace them with either - as suggested by some.
He's unable to demote certain players now due to our depth issues plus with our culture and leadership currently being scrutinised in the media, who knows how this influences what perception is being formed by any potential recruits.
The relationship between the WT coach and players is as probably as vital to look at - for them - as our team performances and the club's goals.
It's why I've specifically singled out upper management and our management systems of late, as the the core issues which are impacting our recruitment are not being addressed and Madge clearly needs additional help with managing any team conflict.

 

[Telltails]

Like most, I hate the notion of sooky players and would love nothing more than to give them a flogging.

Reality is, we're dealing with a different generation of players. Madge has been let down by his approach and by those he has put around him (I've asked an numerous occasions and am repeatedly told his staff are his appointments).

With that in mind, the results are his and ultimately I think it's time a change is made.

The playing group have regressed - no two ways about it. So while we can all say, get rid of them and replace them with those willing to play for this coach - we know that's easier said than done.

For me, the fact that the team has regressed is reason enough for a change. Structures have not improved and effort is not there. Effort is entwined with belief and the players simply don't appear to believe in what they have to follow (Game plan or Structures).

We havnt regressed we are just lacking in quality. This has all manifested after we played three of the best teams in the competition. Two weeks ago the Roosters were also smashed by one of those teams - despite their structures culture etc. The fact is the current Roosters squad even though it's still a sight better than ours is also vulnerable to getting smashed by Melbourne. Cowboys were smashed by an under strength South's last night. You can't measure the performance of our side alone without evaluating the quality of the competition.
This squad is not worth sacking a coach for - and all it does is reinforce the concept that we are incapable of effecting real change and just keep talking the talk and no one is buying it.

 

[tiger_one]

Can I say I listened to that radio segment .. really hate how media talk about culture and look at top performing Clubs before i get to that point ..performance only has to do with quality of player and the coach that’s it.

Let’s look at the panthers .. such a top club ..
- video tape saga
- tic tic during pandemic
- player on rec drugs for grand final last year
Terrific culture

Roosters - 2 off field incidents by the inflictor this year

Storm - Munster known for being a “larrikin “ , didn’t Welch break covid protocols last year ? Nelson in Bali

Spare me the culture crap that is thrown about .
You either have the cattle if you don’t you need a coach that can coach , teach and bring the best out of the plodders you have in the squad

Some cant handle the truth.

 

[Kul]

The thing is, Madge looks to be the only one who's fired up and want's to win.

 

[Tiger5150]

https://www.triplem.com.au/story/players-starting-to-turn-on-michael-maguire-after-post-match-comments-178079

Chammas whiney voice..

Players Starting To Turn On Michael Maguire After Post-Match
FOX LEAGUE

Wests Tigers coach Michael Maguire is facing an uphill battle to keep his job at the club.

Brent Read and Michael Chammas revealed on the Triple M Saturday Scrum, players at the club are unhappy with comments Maguire made post-match following the side's loss to the Rabbitohs.

Why is our playing group always full of sooks?

Because Chammas said so?

 

[Tiger5150]

https://www.triplem.com.au/story/players-starting-to-turn-on-michael-maguire-after-post-match-comments-178079

Chammas whiney voice..

Players Starting To Turn On Michael Maguire After Post-Match
FOX LEAGUE

Wests Tigers coach Michael Maguire is facing an uphill battle to keep his job at the club.

Brent Read and Michael Chammas revealed on the Triple M Saturday Scrum, players at the club are unhappy with comments Maguire made post-match following the side's loss to the Rabbitohs.

This is the tigers circle of life. Well sack the coach. Then next season end up 9th, then 11th then 14th then sack the coach again and start it all over.

And attract no one

 

[Tiger5150]

‘Whispers are getting louder’: Madge given timeline to save job as dressing room turns

From Fox


Pressure is mounting on Wests Tigers coach Michael Maguire amid claims members of the playing group were taken aback by his press conference comments last week.

Maguire described his team’s performance against the Rabbitohs as “garbage” after the 38-22 loss, adding that he “needs to find men who are going to be accountable”.

Those comments did not go down well with some players though.

“I think we are all starting to hear the rumblings around the Tigers and a little bit of unrest at the club in regards to the way they go forward,” the Sydney Morning Herald’s Michael Chammas toldTriple M on Saturday.

“Quite a few of the players had their noses out of joint a little offended by Michael Maguire’s comments last week.”

The Tigers currently sit in 14th position with just five wins from 16 games and are yet to qualify for the finals under Maguire, who took the Rabbitohs to a premiership in 2014.

Maguire’s role in the club’s poor form has been excused at times with suggestions his hard edge is needed to address the soft underbelly at the Tigers.

But now he and the club face a stark reality.

“I’m not defending the players because I think there’s an element that the players are partly to blame,” Chammas said.

“It’s the reality of the situation that if he’s starting to lose them and comments like that, sending text messages amongst each other about ‘what’s the coach saying here about us’ and they’re taking offence to it.

“Whether they are right or wrong that is the reality of the situation Madge now finds himself in. How you overturn that, given their start to the year, given they are struggling to recruit players. I’m starting to feel he is losing a lot of support with the people that matter.”

It comes as the Daily Telegraph believes Maguire has six games to save his job and a defeat to the Broncos in their next match could prove fatal.

“They play Brisbane on the back of a bye, have lost to Melbourne and South Sydney which most people expected, but if they lose to Brisbane things could start to unravel pretty quickly,” Chammas added.

“The club is waiting for Tim Sheens to arrive, he probably won’t be out of quarantine until August but the whispers are getting louder.”

Sheens will be returning to the Tigers as head of football performance but The Australian’s Brent Read worries it may be too late to save Maguire’s job.

“The sense I get is they’ll wait until Tim gets here and gets his feet under the desk and a feel for the environment,” he said.

“I’ve been one of Madge’s biggest fans and I cop flak for it but even I acknowledge now the sense is unless things change dramatically in the next month or two, he can’t survive. They’re just making no headway, they’re actually going backwards.


“The players have to take a lot of responsibility for it but as we always see in these situations, it is easier to get rid of a coach than to clean out the dressing room. So ultimately if Tim Sheens gets there and they lose a couple more. If they lose that game [Broncos], that is another mark against him.

“If Tim gets there in August and things haven’t changed, I don’t see how Madge can be there next year.”

However, one of the other questions the club needs to ask itself is that if Maguire is not the coach to lead the Tigers forward, then who is?

Shane Flanagan, Paul Green and Paul McGregor are three high-profile former coaches looking for a full-time gig but Chammas is hearing another name.

“When I speak to people in the NRL about who the best coach the one name I keep hearing is Cameron Ciraldo,” he said.

Ciraldo was pursued by Cronulla to work as assistant coach alongside Craig Fitzgibbon but declined the offer, instead opting to stay put at Penrith.

Panthers great Mark Geyer though believes a head coaching gig would be enough to see Ciraldo leave the foot of the mountains.

“The hype is real,” he said.

“I think he’d leave for a first-grade job. I know that Fitzy wanted to headhunt him at the Sharks as an assistant but ultimately he stayed at Penrith and that got approved with a roar of cheers. The players love him.

“He’s the Fitzgibbon of Origin. Fitzy does all the talking to the players, Freddie will go on the record and say that. Freddie has that aura where he doesn’t need to say much and when he says it they jump. He’s got the whole squad juggling – one bloke who has gone to the next level juggling is Nathan Cleary – hand-eye coordination.”

When you combine Ciraldo’s open mindset with his strong communication skills, Geyer said the 36-year-old would thrive in head coaching role.

“He thinks outside the box, has a great demeanour,” he added.

“He’s a softly spoken bloke but when he talks you listen. He says it in a way that you want to run through walls for him and that’s what I’m trying to get back to.

“Respecting whose authority is above you. If you’ve got respect for them you’ll do anything, you won’t turn up to training drunk.”

Geyer is referring to reports David Nofoaluma was stood down from the Tigers leadership group after attending training hungover.

It was the morning after the wedding of chairman Lee Hagipantelis’ daughter.

He believes that incident speaks to the broader problems at not just the Tigers but other clubs struggling for form at the moment.

“Look at the Dragons with what happened to them last Saturday, the Bulldogs with what happened the week before, David Nofoaluma coming to training hungover - it doesn’t happen to Penrith, the Roosters and the Storm – the good clubs,” he said.

“It starts right at the top and filters its way down to the players. If you have respect for those who are above you, who are in command, you don’t stuff up. If you give a damn about who has the whistle in the hand you’re going to act accordingly.

“Is Madge the right man for the job? I think he is. Has he got a roster he doesn’t want at the moment? Half of it – yeah – they’re rugby league players who do this for a living.

“Some of the performances they’ve put up this year, they should be unemployed some of them, that’s just not up to first-grade standards. Something is wrong.

“Hopefully Tim Sheens who has an aura about him, if he can come straighten the Tigers out which I think he can, if you start winning it becomes infectious. That’s all the Tigers need a couple of back-to-back and they need to get one soon.”

If that does not come next week against Brisbane it will spell trouble for Maguire.

OK, thats great, Chamas has laid his agenda out for all to see.

 

[BAGNF05]

https://www.triplem.com.au/story/players-starting-to-turn-on-michael-maguire-after-post-match-comments-178079

Chammas whiney voice..

Players Starting To Turn On Michael Maguire After Post-Match
FOX LEAGUE

Wests Tigers coach Michael Maguire is facing an uphill battle to keep his job at the club.

Brent Read and Michael Chammas revealed on the Triple M Saturday Scrum, players at the club are unhappy with comments Maguire made post-match following the side's loss to the Rabbitohs.

This is the tigers circle of life. Well sack the coach. Then next season end up 9th, then 11th then 14th then sack the coach again and start it all over.


And attract no one

Can’t see how we get 9th next year with these pea hearts.

 

[Telltails]

If the club allow journos to influence the path we should take then we might as well give it away now.

 

[Needaname]

Tigers players over 45 maches: Twal (82), Mikaele (54), Liddle (57), Luch (79), Garner (54), Douiehi (64), MCK (88).
Total = 7
Over 100: Tamou (284), Jet (162), Packer (184), Ofa (123), Nofo (155), Mbye (150), Maumolo (108), BJ (225), Brooks (164),
Total = 9

Who in the >100 club is playing well? As I said Tamou is OK 6/10, Ofa I think 7/10, Brooks 7.5/10, rest hopeless - that's coming on 1000 games of experience with poor 2021 output. Maumolo gets a pass because he's just arrived.

The 50+ match club haven't really kicked on - Twal is alright, Mikaele inconsistent, Liddle has only recently strung matches together. Luch is our best attacker and worst defender, Garner is middling (how did he already get to 54 matches?), Douiehi good, MCK career benchie.

So Madge not getting output from these experienced players. They are the backbone of the side. He inherited almost all of them, but you would also hope he could coach a good number of them to play to their best ability.

However I'll argue that the "best" output of these 50+ match players has never really been that good. Guys like Mikaele, Garner, MCK, Packer, their career-best football has been short-lived, a year at most, so it can't only be Madge as a coach. E.g. you'd hope Madge could get the best out of Luch, and for a good while that has been the case, but also St George didn't let him go because he was an easy player to get results out of.

Barely any of the experienced players are hand-selected juniors - they are almost entirely cast-offs and some-risk players that Tigers hope to turn around. Brooks is one, Twal arguably was poached, so was Luch. The rest were basically released / unwanted by former clubs. I don't know if that is specifically on Madge, that his most experienced players could only be bought off clubs that didn't want them any longer, and he doesn't have a core of experienced club juniors.

By comparison to Melbourne Storm, best team going around.

Storm 2021 players over 45 matches: Hughes (75), Jacks (48), G Jennings (49), Kamikamica (49), Olam (54), Cheese (78), Reimis Smith (65), Paps (48).
Total = 8
Over 100: JAC (121), NAS (138), J Bromwich (266), K Bromwich (184), Finucane (212), Kaufusi (146), Munster (144), Welch (110).
Total = 8

Of the +100 club, 6/8 were Melbourne Storm junior selections, 2 were head-hunted from other clubs. Of the ~50s, about half are juniors/debutants, 1 head-hunted (Paps).

Of the +100 players, 100% are rep players. So Bellamy is getting very good value out of his experience, and his highest paid / most experienced players are also the best performers.

So is that entirely the coach, or does he have some luxury of having head-hunted or junior-base players forming the core of his experienced group? Aren't many rejects from other clubs there, although of course you take into account that Storm are so successful they don't really need to look at rejects.

Storm's junior players also have been able to wait patiently and come through a successful system, mentored by experienced rep-level players (in some cases, hall-of-fame players).

Whether or not Madge has the skills, he doesn't have the luxury of that back-history that the Storm have, both in terms of smart long-term recruitment, junior development in a successful environment, no need to sign rejects, top-level experienced players whose best football is elite-level. Madge's most experienced players have almost never been elite-level, not under any coach or any club.

Now Bellamy developed all that himself, so you can't wipe it aside as being an achievement. BUT, when Bellamy joined Storm had played finals 3 times already, missed it twice (years before him), were being bankrolled by News Ltd, not allowed to fail/linger due to NRL multi-city strategy. Bellamy inherited Matt Orford, Billy Slater, Cam Smith, Scott Hill, Rodney Howe, Matt Geyer, Robbie Kearns, Stephen Kearney.

A year later he had Cronk, a year later Inglis - they were both already in the Norths Devils system (Storm feeder) when Bellamy arrived. Any of these named Storm players have played at a high level at other clubs too, so it's not just the coach, they are inherently good in other systems.

And within 8 seasons, Bellyache's side were done for systematic salary cap cheating, which tells you after his first several seasons, they conspired to set up and retain an illegal level of players, to either hold onto experienced elites or experienced juniors, i.e. keep the leadership whilst not losing the new rep-quality juniors.

This isn't to defend Madge, just contrasting the rosters and where the rosters came from.

Can I suggest you put this comment into a new thread?

I’ve done some reading on the 100-150 games target that we have set for recruitment and have found some very common parallels.

A lot in that range and importantly in an age range of between 23-26 have been crucial signings for their respective clubs.

I found it very interesting that for Melbourne that all their players in that range are current rep players.

It might take some time but I’d like to go through the list and assess which ones were good recruits and which ones weren't and similarly who would be great for us.

 

[Harvey]

My other concern with Madge is whether he is the coach that will improve the players in what is basically a young squad.

His record at souths
Year Record
2012 16w-8l
2013 18w-6l
2014 15w-9l
2015 13w-11l
2016 9w-15l
2017 9w 15l

I still have the view he fired up a squad the John Lang had built and slowly took it backwards. Unfortunately what he inherited here was not as good, but it is getting worse.

 

[Tiger5150]

Interesting that Todd Payten literally delivered a very Madge like post press conference by calling out his players and mentioning that they are not sustaining the pressure for long enough periods of time. We are here criticizing Madge for not showing good man management skills, yet have suggested Payten as a person that we would prefer as a coach for some of us.

Madge has his faults and I do raise concern over some but I think can be at least mitigated by bringing in some quality assistants and not just loyal men. Both sides of the spectrum, Those who defend him and those that want him gone are going to nit pick anything to suit their agenda. I think the reality of the matter is, I don't think this roster can go places unless Craig Bellamy is coaching the joint. The self-entitled players who have essentially felt like they run the club need to go, keep weeding the rot out. This club was always going to take a long time to turn around.

Payten is a pretender and is pulling this out 6 months into his contract. He will not see out his contract and will have a short career

 

[Tiger5150]

Bet you it's Nofa leading the player revolt

Our players have no accountability it's a joke lol. They DID play bad and they chuck a sook about being called out about it

Do Storm players cry if Bellamy sprays them? Or do they fix their games.

To be fair, the only evidence that they are "chucking a sook" is from an article written by a bloke with a clear agenda.

 

[mike]

I have heard on numerous occassions in pre match comments by Maguire that the team has trained well and practiced what they have to do and then they come out on to the field and play like headless chooks with no pattern / system to defence and little to no planning.

So, doesnt the truth then have to be that on the field of battle they are falling apart under pressure? Could it be that the leadership group isnt leading by example, the captain is not inspiring them (or not on the field), and the halfback is not organising, or most worryingly, the team is dogging it. While it is true there are many young-uns in the 17, there are also enough experienced old-uns to be able to take the pressure and help the others. Yet, they are not.

If they are doing totally opposite to what has been practised on training the culprit players are in the wrong and should be sacked. Surely contracts have in them undertaking coaches instructions. If the players think they n=know better tit cant go on.

Im all for replacing Maguire if we can find someone better, but the players behind all this should not, cannot, escape the axe. If they do get a new coach, they would have to accept the direction the club is going in and not go through another massive rebuild.

Questions are being asked of the coach about why he is reporting to the club that training is going well but that is not transferring to gameday.

That’s an interesting one. It feels like we have a pretty disconnected group which I’d imagine would also be fairly obvious through the week. Do people from the senior admin not go to training and watch? What are they doing? Certainly not winning in their meetings with player managers.

Going and watching training and understanding what is happening, whether the goals of the session are being achieved, if players are hitting data etc are different things. I don't expect Pascoe to be able to go to training and determine of the training session was successful. I would also be disappointed if he is spending all day at training.

With the right experience it’s easy to tell the difference between a really connected team and one that’s got issues. I think everything would just be humming if you watched Melbourne train. I imagine some of our fellas would stroll in and probably not even acknowledge each other. That’s how they’re playing anyway.

Yes but that is not the senior management role to see that, it is Madges role. That is why he is being asked those questions.

This is where we disagree mate, from top down I’d want football nous. They’re on big money and what exactly are they doing to win us games?

Edit: This is why I like the Sheens appointment.

Maybe you do but I don’t. This is not a sole trader or small business organisation where 1 person does everything. You have specialists for each area of the organisation. Not everyone has or should have football nous, that would not be a well functioning organisation.

 

[pawsandclaws1]

Interesting to note Todd Payten calling out his senior playing roster after another loss.

Saying that besides one or two players the senior guys are not doing enough to play tough and help the younger players through the game.

Last week Maguire had the 'men' comment after months of public praise for his under performing senior roster. Seems Toddy is not as patient.

Both clubs have a very similar issue. Will be interesting to see how the respective coaches handle the situation and who achieves success.

Where's @pawsandclaws1, we need someone on the case of employee management, another coach making public comments about his under-performing players, not on, that can apparently only be done in private.

Don't worry Jirskyr, the press and the players are aware of the comment made by Maguire as you can read in the DT article. As I posted previously, will Maguire say that again? I suspect not.

Aah, look over there what is happening at the Cowboys! Sorry it is not relevant to this discussion.