Michael Maguire leaves club

[Lauren]

No ..Brooks was overhyped to start with ,he won Dally M when most halfbacks that year were poor...Madge has signed or resigned most of these blokes,but it takes time to develop the young guys,Star ,AJ,Stef,Jake Simpkins let alone the injuries to AD,Laurie as well as the seniors working better this year Offa,J tamou,Luci (who I think is playing injured just as Ken M is...
So in summation we really arent at a level playing field to get rid of Madge just because we arent where most want us to be...

I might not agree with the opinion of @Camel2281 re:Madge and think we'd be silly to get rid of Madge right now however there is truth to what they've stated and that is that the team's outcomes and results have gotten worse. Everyone with eyes can see this.
Also think it's a valid argument about the team's progress.
You keep identifying our problems at organisational level and including all our barriers however the coaches of the three club's we closely resembled last year have effectively manipulated all constraints (Cowboys, Broncos and Dragons). Other than Reynolds, Townsend and Capewell to a lesser extent, they've gained average (not elite level) players that have improved their form from last year.
I believe that's the gist of what people are stating.

IMO it was the poor recruitment and retention during and subsequent to the Taylor/Cleary years that's been the biggest hindrance for us but I feel we've turned a corner - in securing Papalii and Korisau.

 

[tony soprano]

It all comes down to Ciraldo. If he is willing to come in 2023, Madge is a dead duck. It would appear he has been approached and is giving it serious consideration.

I am sure they would go down the caretaker road for the rest of the season if Ciraldo did commit for 23. Personally I think he knock us back and stick with Riff till a big team job arrives

Yep, think it's reality we've been going after him since last year.

He has an over thinker personality type so all the stars will need to align for him to take the risk from his safe job.

 

[TrueTiger]

I might not agree with the opinion of @Camel2281 and think we'd be silly to get rid of Madge right now however there is truth to what they've stated and that is that the team's outcomes and results have gotten worse. Everyone with eyes can see this.
Also think it's a valid argument about the team's progress.
You keep identifying our problems at organisational level and including all our barriers however the coaches of the three club's we closely resembled last year have effectively manipulated all constraints (Cowboys, Broncos and Dragons). Other than Reynolds, Townsend and Capewell to a lesser extent, they've gained average (not elite level) players that have improved their form from last year.
I believe that's the gist of what people are stating.

IMO it was the poor recruitment and retention during and subsequent to the Taylor/Cleary years that's been the biggest hindrance for us but I feel we've turned a corner - in securing Papalii and Korisau.

Ok Lauren and I respect your input immensley on this forum...
1...we have gone backward this year WHY...the team has had horrific injuries to key TOP17 players..thats half your NRL side in the grandstand slurpping on beers while our limited depth have stepped up,they have lost but PLAYED FOR 80 mins with great effort something this lot couldnt do last year...
2,,organisational failure...Pascoe signed off on Clearys roster 5 blokes on big money with little input,plus cost us a huge amount in cap fine for NOT knowing his job...
3 ..I can see everyones frustrations,but Madge is trying his best to make this a far better team and club allround,if all the people that are part of this club showed the heart and loyalty that Madge has over the last 4 years then we would be one of the best teams in the NRL not one of the worst...

 

[BAGNF05]

Panthers and Sharks established Pathways and identified/recruited/retained the best young players and developed them through to the NRL.

Or they just had a stack of juniors come through at the same time through sheer coincidence. And their club was strong enough to hold onto them.

 

[TSP]

Madge ,he only has the passion,isnt the modern coach just a figure head anyway,its the D,A coaches that should b in question

👍 and other influences.

 

[Needaname]

I think most of the decisions we’ve made in terms of letting players go have been right.

Madge has an impact on player environment, but so do assistants, training and other factors and we’ve struggled to get the mix right.

By that I mean, we havent seen enough players at optimum often enough, Brooksy is the best example.

Hopefully the review will probe into all of the relevant areas.

Also, we know a lot of footy players, their opinions can be wrong. So when you interview them, sometimes they are under false impressions or just bullshit. And remember they only get a part of the whole picture.

I’d be asking them what they think makes them perform better. They may be wrong, but it’s what they think that can be the key.

As Jason Taylor said, the game is about looking at the individual as well as the team and he spoke to the equality of fitness and skill but that the mental element is critical.

Also, let’s hope the review is nothing like the fiasco last year or that a conclusion hasn’t been reached before it’s been started.

If we keep him, he should get to the end of the year without any hysteria. But the reality is we are probably talking to coaches now to suss them out.

You’d have to cater for a finding that he may not survive the review. If it’s a real review.

Cc won’t hang around for 5 long years under the Cleary terror. No chance.

By rights you’d only replace Madge with someone better, and that means some proof of service. So I could be wrong, but I don’t see a rookie coach getting a gig. Cc is not a rookie coach. He’s coached ok when left to his own devices is my understanding. But he won’t come cheap.

Whatever the decision, the rationale will come under close scrutiny, as it should and it was mentioned earlier that transparency should be the key element. Not the mush we got last year. That was a fully bastardised process with Adam paying the price with no proper explanation. It hurt us. If someone can tell me why he really got sacked, please explain.

Because Sheens arrived.

 

[TSP]

Because Sheens arrived.

Source and did His Honour give ever give a reason for his summary axing?

He hardly time to empty his draw.

 

[Needaname]

Source and did His Honour give ever give a reason for his summary axing?

He hardly time to empty his draw.

I think i was more the point that it would of been a duplicate role. He could of taken a demotion and worked alongside in place of McDonnell but I’m not sure that was of interest to him

 

[Needaname]

John Morris did well in the NRL period. He also did extremely well with Pathways.

Cobarcats and TT, Sheens has instituted Pathways at WTs so it is a big deal for our club. This comes back to my earlier comment about you putting the interests of Maguire ahead of WTs.

I’m pretty sure this was instituted long before Sheens arrived or was sorted out to return to a role at the tigers.
Brett Kimmorely and Matt Betsy were recruited prior to Sheens announced as coming back.
The following link explains that a Wests Tigers Academy has been in existence for a decade however the video in the link goes into detail about the work done in 2019 since Madge arrived in evolving the Wests Tigers Academy to include Balmain Juniors and Group 6 players all in the one camp.
I’m not sure it is entirely of a result of Madge but since signing on as our coach he has heaped importance on having strength in our pathways.
He has spoken about the importance of forming the equivalent back at Souths when he started there and you can see how the strength in their pathways has kept them competitive.
For a long time the Wests Tigers were putting no focus on our own junior pathways, St Gregg’s boys were being signed to other clubs, I can’t remember the last player since Luke Brooks and Mitch Moses to come from Holy Cross. We’ve persisted with trying to recruit the bulk of our pathways players through the one means of Keebra Park and ended up attracting second string players like Kurtis Rowe, Marion Seve, Watson Heleta, Lamar liolave, JJ Felise, Connelly Lelumu. The most recent NRL recruit out of that staple was Thomas Mikalee, whom as we’ve seen isn’t cutting It and has headed to ESL.

I believe the players from recent HM Premiership team aged 16 or 17 now and would of been a part of the academy back in 2019/2020.

Brydens Lawyers Academy

Brydens Lawyers Academy

www.weststigers.com.au

 

[Lauren]

Ok Lauren and I respect your input immensley on this forum...
1...we have gone backward this year WHY...the team has had horrific injuries to key TOP17 players..thats half your NRL side in the grandstand slurpping on beers while our limited depth have stepped up,they have lost but PLAYED FOR 80 mins with great effort something this lot couldnt do last year...
2,,organisational failure...Pascoe signed off on Clearys roster 5 blokes on big money with little input,plus cost us a huge amount in cap fine for NOT knowing his job...
3 ..I can see everyones frustrations,but Madge is trying his best to make this a far better team and club allround,if all the people that are part of this club showed the heart and loyalty that Madge has over the last 4 years then we would be one of the best teams in the NRL not one of the worst...

I'm not sure how to take your response.
I actually agree with some of what you say and have expressed the exact same things myself in the last few days, so you've missed my whole point.

Every team has obstacles but we're still the only team in the competition that cannot seem to make the 8.
Take the teams I listed for example, Cowboys in particular. Payten's sole focus for this year was to have his team playing to the best of their capabilities and to their strengths. They were 15th last year and are now sitting in 3rd position.
We can only measure the team's success in terms of onfield results - not limitations - and there's gotta be a time where people can judge Madge's ( coaching ability on the team's performance levels and not the club's past mistakes or roster problems.
We can only play with what we've got and it's his responsibility to bring out the best in them.
Not to be rude but there's nothing wrong with feedback on Madge. I don't understand why you're so easily offended when it is negative though.

 

[Merlot]

if its about instant results Madge is ggggggggggggggoooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnneeee

 

[Cobarcats]

I’m pretty sure this was instituted long before Sheens arrived or was sorted out to return to a role at the tigers.
Brett Kimmorely and Matt Betsy were recruited prior to Sheens announced as coming back.
The following link explains that a Wests Tigers Academy has been in existence for a decade however the video in the link goes into detail about the work done in 2019 since Madge arrived in evolving the Wests Tigers Academy to include Balmain Juniors and Group 6 players all in the one camp.
I’m not sure it is entirely of a result of Madge but since signing on as our coach he has heaped importance on having strength in our pathways.
He has spoken about the importance of forming the equivalent back at Souths when he started there and you can see how the strength in their pathways has kept them competitive.
For a long time the Wests Tigers were putting no focus on our own junior pathways, St Gregg’s boys were being signed to other clubs, I can’t remember the last player since Luke Brooks and Mitch Moses to come from Holy Cross. We’ve persisted with trying to recruit the bulk of our pathways players through the one means of Keebra Park and ended up attracting second string players like Kurtis Rowe, Marion Seve, Watson Heleta, Lamar liolave, JJ Felise, Connelly Lelumu. The most recent NRL recruit out of that staple was Thomas Mikalee, whom as we’ve seen isn’t cutting It and has headed to ESL.

I believe the players from recent HM Premiership team aged 16 or 17 now and would of been a part of the academy back in 2019/2020.

Brydens Lawyers Academy

Brydens Lawyers Academy

www.weststigers.com.au

Well written NAN.
I can see Paws point about the necessity of a good pathways system. It's obvious that it is crucial.
The whole debate on this topic is Madge and somehow it's been twisted that Morris should replace Madge because he has a better track record with pathways.
I don't understand how an NRL coach can have much to do with pathways other than say to Brett Kimmorley that we need a certain product.
How can he do more than that. His energy and time is solely dedicated to running first grade.
My point us Madge has been successful before with a good roster, moulding them into a premiership winning team.
He's done well here, overseas and with NZ.
We've had salary cap issues so we haven't given the squad he wants but that is changing.
I remember when the Bulldogs got Dean Pay in.
I saw in him a real bulldog and they gave him didly squat as far as recruitmenting goes.
Then they bring in Trent Barrett and gave him an open cheque book and look what that got them.
Getting back to pathways, I can see that it's crucial for success so bring in someone like Morris if he's better and put money behind him to motivate him for success.
Put our money where our mouth is and along with the COE things should inprove.

 

[Mighty_Tiger]

Well written NAN.
I can see Paws point about the necessity of a good pathways system. It's obvious that it is crucial.
The whole debate on this topic is Madge and somehow it's been twisted that Morris should replace Madge because he has a better track record with pathways.
I don't understand how an NRL coach can have much to do with pathways other than say to Brett Kimmorley that we need a certain product.
How can he do more than that. His energy and time is solely dedicated to running first grade.
My point us Madge has been successful before with a good roster, moulding them into a premiership winning team.
He's done well here, overseas and with NZ.
We've had salary cap issues so we haven't given the squad he wants but that is changing.
I remember when the Bulldogs got Dean Pay in.
I saw in him a real bulldog and they gave him didly squat as far as recruitmenting goes.
Then they bring in Trent Barrett and gave him an open cheque book and look what that got them.
Getting back to pathways, I can see that it's crucial for success so bring in someone like Morris if he's better and put money behind him to motivate him for success.
Put our money where our mouth is and along with the COE things should inprove.

I really struggle when people say he hasn’t had the team he wants. Every player on our roster was signed under Madge. It is his squad. Last year only 1 player wasn’t his in Mbye.

Last 2yrs it has been his squad.

He had his best results with another coaches team and since then has gone downhill ever since the more this team has become his.

 

[Cobarcats]

I really struggle when people say he hasn’t had the team he wants. Every player on our roster was signed under Madge. It is his squad. Last year only 1 player wasn’t his in Mbye.

Last 2yrs it has been his squad.

He had his best results with another coaches team and since then has gone downhill ever since the more this team has become his.

Mate we were in cap trouble, we had to settle for dregs and hang onto below par players imo.
But he has got some bargains, Jacko, Joffa, Stef, Laurie, Kenny. It's changing slowly and should reap rewards

 

[TSP]

Mate we were in cap trouble, we had to settle for dregs and hang onto below par players imo.
But he has got some bargains, Jacko, Joffa, Stef, Laurie, Kenny. It's changing slowly and should reap rewards

Yeah I think that’s right.

A couple of examples:

If memory serves, the cap issue is not quite extinguished and we still have some corpse awakening hangovers such as paying Mbye about $400k to place elsewhere and my Brooks theory where we are paying $850k for a $550k player.

Injuries are an interesting challenge.

Some coaches are quick to point out the unavailability of players whilst others run the line of “ it’s part of the game”

Did the injury sums a couple of weeks ago, and we have about the average number out, but obviously AD is tough especially as he’s strike and a competent defender.

We’ve all him seen kick well under pressure and his enthusiasm is infectious.

Blorey finished for the year, just tragic -but all going well he should be massive next season. Maybe our best pack for…

 

[TrueTiger]

I'm not sure how to take your response.
I actually agree with some of what you say and have expressed the exact same things myself in the last few days, so you've missed my whole point.

Every team has obstacles but we're still the only team in the competition that cannot seem to make the 8.
Take the teams I listed for example, Cowboys in particular. Payten's sole focus for this year was to have his team playing to the best of their capabilities and to their strengths. They were 15th last year and are now sitting in 3rd position.
We can only measure the team's success in terms of onfield results - not limitations - and there's gotta be a time where people can judge Madge's ( coaching ability on the team's performance levels and not the club's past mistakes or roster problems.
We can only play with what we've got and it's his responsibility to bring out the best in them.
Not to be rude but there's nothing wrong with feedback on Madge. I don't understand why you're so easily offended when it is negative though.

Thanks for your response Lauren,I only want to say one thing and that is this year we expected to be a bit better than last year around about 11/12th maybe with the roster we have,,,Laurie breaks his leg last year and made a a weary start to this year,AD does a knee,out until rnd 14 this year and was our best player until he done his knee,AJ out with a bad knee etc...
So this year Hastings out 3 weeks,more injuries to players Brooks,Laurie again,Ken M playing on one leg and all of a sudden Madge has nearly HALF his NRL side out and our fringe players get used to fill those voids...So how can Madge get top results with most of his top players out,its not that easy...Typical,tonight the Titans now have lost 8 out of 9 games this year and played finals last year..
Anyone is entitled to an opinion of course and Im not angry or negative at you at all,Im just stating that its not fair to judge Madge after all the crap he has had to manage,get the pathways active again and this year woeful injuries to start the year..

 

[twentyforty]

So we are clear:
"only won 6 of the last 23".
26%

Madge doesn't have to go today. He can run the team for a few more weeks till we find a good replacement. Heck I want to offer him "caretaker" 1 year and he can pretend to quit for another offer. We take on Ciraldo or my preference make an offer to Cooper Cronk!

While on that subject, other then Flanno (what on earth was he thinking lately, gone from a Yes to NO in my book). lets look:
Cooper Cronk
Ciraldo
Jonathan Thurston (likely cowboy for life, but also likely a good coach).
Laurie Daily

madge is meant to be the experienced coach that gets the basics right and steers us in a good path. He has failed in that respect. I want us to hire a good replacement. Madge however has failed.

You mean Robinson who had a 60% win rate with Catalans in the ESL first? Hardly came straight out of NSW cup to coach NRL.

Barrett - failed
Holbrook - failed
O'Brien - failed

The only one who has had some semblance of success is Fitzy.

I think you need to give these coaches time and consider how truly hard it is to make the top 8 there are 4 teams every year you can lock in to play finals

Rooster
Melbourne
Parra
Penrith

And a couple more you can pretty much say will be there that change every year or so. so that leaves 2 spots for all the bottom dwelling clubs to fight for this makes it so difficult for a club/coach to crack that top 8

I agree Barrett has been a complete failure
But I believe Holbrook and obrien are building toward something

Both teams will be pushing for top 8 next year

And fitzy is a smart man instead of taking the first job offered to him he just hung at the roosters learning his trade and waiting for the perfect job to pop up

I believe we are starting to look like an appealing job to coaches we have a huge jr base and Tim sheens 1 of the greatest coaches of all time is at the club to lend a hand and the coach that comes here and finally brings success we be a god in the eyes of the fans

We have that coach already.

 

[Swordy]

Every single member of our squad was signed or re-signed by Madge. And we've got worse every year. Agree about Jackson. I wasn't defending Brooks, just pointing out that under Madge he's also become a worse player

Correct. Every single player has been signed or re signed under this coach. And he did that with no more than 75% of a salary cap because of a $639k club fine coming out in his first year, and spending the next few paying for players that he did not sign.

He did the best with what he had.

I think from memory, for the first 6 months of his tenure he didn't even have a CEO? And up until 6 months ago he was trying to play the role of football manager as well because we were one of the few clubs that didn't have one. Our finances were in complete ruins because of the 10 years prior.

As for Brooks, I'm not sure he is worse, because he hasn't been that good anyway. And on top of that, he has never had a decent game managing half to work with because the Tigers couldn't afford him.

Context around the coach before you sh** on him. I'd be very interested to know from anyone, who they should have appointed instead? Everyone jumped for joy when he got here and then a select few have been stabbing him in the back ever since.

 

[Mighty_Tiger]

Mate we were in cap trouble, we had to settle for dregs and hang onto below par players imo.
But he has got some bargains, Jacko, Joffa, Stef, Laurie, Kenny. It's changing slowly and should reap rewards

Missing the point with said cap problems he got better results than when he hasn’t had cap problems he has struggled. To use it & last 2yrs it’s been his squad.

You can use the cap as an excuse but he didn’t use the full cap last year or this year but oversaw every single contract he has on the roster.

It is his squad. He even signed Hastings whilst we had Brooks, AD & Madden without a clear strategy of what position they will play.

 

[Mighty_Tiger]

Correct. Every single player has been signed or re signed under this coach. And he did that with no more than 75% of a salary cap because of a $639k club fine coming out in his first year, and spending the next few paying for players that he did not sign.

He did the best with what he had.

I think from memory, for the first 6 months of his tenure he didn't even have a CEO? And up until 6 months ago he was trying to play the role of football manager as well because we were one of the few clubs that didn't have one. Our finances were in complete ruins because of the 10 years prior.

As for Brooks, I'm not sure he is worse, because he hasn't been that good anyway. And on top of that, he has never had a decent game managing half to work with because the Tigers couldn't afford him.

Context around the coach before you sh** on him. I'd be very interested to know from anyone, who they should have appointed instead? Everyone jumped for joy when he got here and then a select few have been stabbing him in the back ever since.

639k isn’t 25% of the cap

He also signed AD to 650k which at the time he wasn’t worth that, signed Noffa and Musgrove to 5yr deals and Brooks to $1m last 2yrs contract. Signed Hastings without a clear Hastings/AD/Brooks plan. Signed BJ/JTJ/Gildart. Didn’t release Mbye a season early. The list goes on.

People can use the cap & not his squad as an excuse but his results were more positive than what they are today.

Not saying that should be grounds to be replaced, just calling out that people shouldn’t use it as an argument.

Every single new coach of a team inherits another squad but in 4yrs you just don’t see the decline of both reserves and NRL sides Madge has seen.