Pathways. What pathways?

[twentyforty]

I would suggest the board encourage Pascoe to recruit/contract either a HR scientist or OD professional to put in place some organisational structure and performance/procedures manual in order to create some accountability.

No offence but I find that stuff to be gobbledygook, especially in the context of running a football club.

My personal experience with HR is that, in an organisation comprised of strongly varied roles and skills, the HR department can barely keep up with the true needs and concerns of their total talent pool. So I mean the difference between managing 100 people with the same job/outcome versus a team with highly varied responsibilities.

A football club would be an organisation with highly varied skills and responsibilities - almost nobody has the same role or KPIs, not even within the football team itself.

My opinion is HR should do their fundamentals (pay, appraisals, crisis/performance management) and support the decision-makers to hire excellence.

Given that I don't even really understand what the HR scientist or OD professional roles, I tried to do some research online to find an explanation. For example (and these may be bad examples, I just took a cross-section):
https://www.hrtechnologist.com/articles/digital-transformation/the-rise-of-chief-hr-data-scientist/
https://www.visier.com/clarity/hr-data-scientist-top-skills/

Honestly I can barely understand what these articles are saying. It reads like the creme de la creme of management speak. I can only imagine how it would go down inside a football organisation, to have some HR Head come in and start talking about "procedure manuals" and "Diversity program evaluations".

I couldn't even imagine where a HR scientist would obtain a sufficiently robust dataset to be undertaking those kind of analyses, in a company of maybe 100 employees who all have different roles, and for whom half the staff mostly need to "run and tackle large men".

And apologies I don't mean this as an offence, I have an impression you know what you are talking about, but I'm thinking about this from the perspective of a football operation that has barely laid down their new plan for recruitment/performance pathways.

Hahaha, I don’t disagree with your points, but surely the club could do with some improvement in its organisational structure. These guys seem to be getting in each other’s way, even when they go on a mission as a group(Pangai ) they stuff it up. I’m thinking it’s the underlying issue which prevents players signing on and dampens the enthusiasm of existing players? Let’s face it, the organisational culture is driven from the top down. I’m not suggesting the OD consultant be there full time, just long enough to departmentalise and introduce some accountability, maybe 3 years? ?

 

[jrtiger]

Betsey and Kimmorley will be massive for our pathways. With new Matts and Ball coaches they can build it from the ground up. Hopefully Lambkin is retained in some capacity as well. I like how we're developing a style of football that will be played from first grade down. makes it far easier to integrate young kids. we won't see the results for another 5 years ala Penrith, but it futureproofs the whole organisation.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're not that far off.

Who says we're developing a single style of football that will be played from first grade down? What would this style be? Who determines it?

Noddy said it in his interview on the WT website.

 

[twentyforty]

I agree 100% in a solid pathways development program, but a prerequisite to the seamless integration and continuity of such a program is having it underpinned by a well developed organisational structure with each position in the organisation having clearly defined tasks and responsibilities. It’s ok to recruit key people like Brett, Tim and others, but if there is no positional responsibility and no clear leadership then it’s not guaranteed to succeed. Pascoe has done some good things but those things could easily have been done by a competent administrator, the club needs organisational development and leadership. I would suggest the board encourage Pascoe to recruit/contract either a HR scientist or OD professional to put in place some organisational structure and performance/procedures manual in order to create some accountability. The alternative is to replace him.

I would rather see the money spent on a better coach for one of the junior teams. One just under the level of an NRL Assistant coach or one that has just missed out on an AC job. There was a coach - name of Holland I believe that was very good with I think our juniors that moved on - wouldn't mind him back to lend a hand.

Imo HR or OD positions just make it more complicated than it should be and make the Administration top heavy.

Only if they're busy looking busy. The return of Sheens could replace the need for being a professional organisation? As I recall he told the board to but out of the footy dept. so it may be a return to the days when he was in charge? Not really a floater, filling in for others to take leave etc., but a controlling head of football.

 

[balmain boy]

Betsey and Kimmorley will be massive for our pathways. With new Matts and Ball coaches they can build it from the ground up. Hopefully Lambkin is retained in some capacity as well. I like how we're developing a style of football that will be played from first grade down. makes it far easier to integrate young kids. we won't see the results for another 5 years ala Penrith, but it futureproofs the whole organisation.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're not that far off.

Who says we're developing a single style of football that will be played from first grade down? What would this style be? Who determines it?

Brett said we are looking to implement a style from first grade down so the young ones coming in understand the WT and Michael Maguire way.

I'd honestly rather we implement a style based on Flegg and have that implemented in NSW Cup and NRL levels.

The NRL squad plays an awful brand of football.

I'd rather we develop a style from Flegg and then try get the NRL boys to play that style. Our NRL squad has no style, no idea. Madge has no tactical gameplans. We need someone else to be overseeing this process and keeping madge out of it.

 

[balmain boy]

Betsey and Kimmorley will be massive for our pathways. With new Matts and Ball coaches they can build it from the ground up. Hopefully Lambkin is retained in some capacity as well. I like how we're developing a style of football that will be played from first grade down. makes it far easier to integrate young kids. we won't see the results for another 5 years ala Penrith, but it futureproofs the whole organisation.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're not that far off.

Who says we're developing a single style of football that will be played from first grade down? What would this style be? Who determines it?

Noddy said it in his interview on the WT website.

Mustn't have heard that line, cheers.

Don't agree with it at all though. We have to define what our style is going to be and that has to suit the players we have for now.

 

[jrtiger]

Betsey and Kimmorley will be massive for our pathways. With new Matts and Ball coaches they can build it from the ground up. Hopefully Lambkin is retained in some capacity as well. I like how we're developing a style of football that will be played from first grade down. makes it far easier to integrate young kids. we won't see the results for another 5 years ala Penrith, but it futureproofs the whole organisation.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're not that far off.

Who says we're developing a single style of football that will be played from first grade down? What would this style be? Who determines it?

Noddy said it in his interview on the WT website.

Mustn't have heard that line, cheers.

Don't agree with it at all though. We have to define what our style is going to be and that has to suit the players we have for now.

doesn't have to necessarily. our first grade side doesn't have an identity. why not give them one that is club-wide?

 

[Needaname]

Betsey and Kimmorley will be massive for our pathways. With new Matts and Ball coaches they can build it from the ground up. Hopefully Lambkin is retained in some capacity as well. I like how we're developing a style of football that will be played from first grade down. makes it far easier to integrate young kids. we won't see the results for another 5 years ala Penrith, but it futureproofs the whole organisation.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're not that far off.

Who says we're developing a single style of football that will be played from first grade down? What would this style be? Who determines it?

Brett said we are looking to implement a style from first grade down so the young ones coming in understand the WT and Michael Maguire way.

I'd honestly rather we implement a style based on Flegg and have that implemented in NSW Cup and NRL levels.

The NRL squad plays an awful brand of football.

I'd rather we develop a style from Flegg and then try get the NRL boys to play that style. Our NRL squad has no style, no idea. Madge has no tactical gameplans. We need someone else to be overseeing this process and keeping madge out of it.

That’s an interesting way to look at it.

At what age do you think the players are receptive to playing a certain style?

Most play with no regard to structures and defence we’ll into there late teens.

If you start too young it might put a lot of players off if you are using them as the experiment point of which to implement the Wests Tigers way of playing.

I think they are on the right track doing it from the top down.
Doesn’t necessarily mean the 1st graders and coach are immune to changing the way they play.
The ‘Maguire way’ might just be more a comment in regards to the type of players Maguire and our senior recruitment team is looking to utilise.

We are far from the finished product. Madge alone hasn’t come in and picked Blore, Lauri, Steph and Tuki randomly. This would of been a measured approach including more than just Madge. Not saying they were head hunted but that are still young enough to mould as the core of what the Wests Tigers future will become.

 

[BAGNF05]

Betsey and Kimmorley will be massive for our pathways. With new Matts and Ball coaches they can build it from the ground up. Hopefully Lambkin is retained in some capacity as well. I like how we're developing a style of football that will be played from first grade down. makes it far easier to integrate young kids. we won't see the results for another 5 years ala Penrith, but it futureproofs the whole organisation.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're not that far off.

Who says we're developing a single style of football that will be played from first grade down? What would this style be? Who determines it?

Catch, pass and athleticism according to Kimmorley. Sounds simple but definitely an upgrade on drop, run backwards and eat Oporto.

 

[balmain boy]

Betsey and Kimmorley will be massive for our pathways. With new Matts and Ball coaches they can build it from the ground up. Hopefully Lambkin is retained in some capacity as well. I like how we're developing a style of football that will be played from first grade down. makes it far easier to integrate young kids. we won't see the results for another 5 years ala Penrith, but it futureproofs the whole organisation.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're not that far off.

Who says we're developing a single style of football that will be played from first grade down? What would this style be? Who determines it?

Noddy said it in his interview on the WT website.

Mustn't have heard that line, cheers.

Don't agree with it at all though. We have to define what our style is going to be and that has to suit the players we have for now.

doesn't have to necessarily. our first grade side doesn't have an identity. why not give them one that is club-wide?

The style is powerful forwards who dominate the ruck and get over the advantage line, smart halves that know when to play territory and when to attack, speed out wide and defending with heart, structure and technique.

What else are we going to try to do? But this is a pointless style because we don't have many NRL players capable of playing like that! And will take a couple of years to get there!

 

[tiger_one]

Betsey and Kimmorley will be massive for our pathways. With new Matts and Ball coaches they can build it from the ground up. Hopefully Lambkin is retained in some capacity as well. I like how we're developing a style of football that will be played from first grade down. makes it far easier to integrate young kids. we won't see the results for another 5 years ala Penrith, but it futureproofs the whole organisation.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're not that far off.

Who says we're developing a single style of football that will be played from first grade down? What would this style be? Who determines it?

Catch, pass and athleticism according to Kimmorley. Sounds simple but definitely an upgrade on drop, run backwards and eat Oporto.

Spot on - rugby league basics 101.

 

[Mighty_Tiger]

Betsey and Kimmorley will be massive for our pathways. With new Matts and Ball coaches they can build it from the ground up. Hopefully Lambkin is retained in some capacity as well. I like how we're developing a style of football that will be played from first grade down. makes it far easier to integrate young kids. we won't see the results for another 5 years ala Penrith, but it futureproofs the whole organisation.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're not that far off.

Who says we're developing a single style of football that will be played from first grade down? What would this style be? Who determines it?

Noddy said it in his interview on the WT website.

Mustn't have heard that line, cheers.

Don't agree with it at all though. We have to define what our style is going to be and that has to suit the players we have for now.

That makes no sense if the focus is on a strategic objective. They are training kids 5yrs before they have a chance to make the grade. Why train them based off how bad our nrl squad is? We all know our nrl squad isn’t up to it even if the game plan was vastly different. We just aren’t that good. We aren’t recruiting top nrl talent so our core focus should be strategic playing styles. What we have done in the past hasn’t worked,m what do we have to lose in taking a new direction?

It works for the Storm, Roosters and Panthers well.

 

[Merlot]

we have 2 start , somewhere,building a new winning culture does not have 2 start in 1st grade

 

[Merlot]

we have 2 start , somewhere,building a new winning culture does not have 2 start in 1st grade

 

[TheDaBoss]

Ah yes 1 style of football all the way down

Can't wait tk see koe and flegg leak 60 points

 

[twentyforty]

Betsey and Kimmorley will be massive for our pathways. With new Matts and Ball coaches they can build it from the ground up. Hopefully Lambkin is retained in some capacity as well. I like how we're developing a style of football that will be played from first grade down. makes it far easier to integrate young kids. we won't see the results for another 5 years ala Penrith, but it futureproofs the whole organisation.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're not that far off.

Who says we're developing a single style of football that will be played from first grade down? What would this style be? Who determines it?

Noddy said it in his interview on the WT website.

Mustn't have heard that line, cheers.

Don't agree with it at all though. We have to define what our style is going to be and that has to suit the players we have for now.

That makes no sense if the focus is on a strategic objective. They are training kids 5yrs before they have a chance to make the grade. Why train them based off how bad our nrl squad is? We all know our nrl squad isn’t up to it even if the game plan was vastly different. We just aren’t that good. We aren’t recruiting top nrl talent so our core focus should be strategic playing styles. What we have done in the past hasn’t worked,m what do we have to lose in taking a new direction?

It works for the Storm, Roosters and Panthers well.

Agree Mighty! I can see where this is going too. The role of a particular position being the same throughout the grades a tight control on cap management, with each Player fulfilling their contracts, gives the coach as much flexibility as he needs. This allows us to shake off the ‘retirement home’ tag and become a reputation building club for young stars of the future.

 

[sly]

This system is used at every dev club anyway. It has its advantages, like everyone being on the same page, and when guys get to first grade , they supposedly need vey little basic skill training because it’s all been done, and the head coach can work on man management and tactics etc...but it also has a lot of disadvantages. Des hasler used to use it at the bulldogs primarily to weed out any coach on the way up that was a free thinker and looked like having ability ,he rissoled any possible threat very quickly. Junior coaches would be given play books, warm up routines.... etc , he would send down kelly Egan to junior rep training and didn’t matter if Matt’s or ball were going well if Kelly thought the coach knew what he was doing, they were punted for “not following procedure”. The major thing for a coach is how you get your message across, and in this club it seems the third grade coach is the best at it, but if players like him and more importantly respond to him, he may not be here much longerunder the new system. Funny game rugby league, especially of the park.

 

[twentyforty]

This system is used at every dev club anyway. It has its advantages, like everyone being on the same page, and when guys get to first grade , they supposedly need vey little basic skill training because it’s all been done, and the head coach can work on man management and tactics etc...but it also has a lot of disadvantages. Des hasler used to use it at the bulldogs primarily to weed out any coach on the way up that was a free thinker and looked like having ability ,he rissoled any possible threat very quickly. Junior coaches would be given play books, warm up routines.... etc , he would send down kelly Egan to junior rep training and didn’t matter if Matt’s or ball were going well if Kelly thought the coach knew what he was doing, they were punted for “not following procedure”. The major thing for a coach is how you get your message across, and in this club it seems the third grade coach is the best at it, but if players like him and more importantly respond to him, he may not be here much longerunder the new system. Funny game rugby league, especially of the park.

Yes, I’m surprised that WT have not supported this coaching method, it allows decision making around roster rotation easier and would therefor create more opportunities for younger players. Seems unorthodox to sack a coach because he is good? More than likely a coach would get sacked for deviating from his job description? 🤔

 

[jirskyr]

I would suggest the board encourage Pascoe to recruit/contract either a HR scientist or OD professional to put in place some organisational structure and performance/procedures manual in order to create some accountability.

No offence but I find that stuff to be gobbledygook, especially in the context of running a football club.

My personal experience with HR is that, in an organisation comprised of strongly varied roles and skills, the HR department can barely keep up with the true needs and concerns of their total talent pool. So I mean the difference between managing 100 people with the same job/outcome versus a team with highly varied responsibilities.

A football club would be an organisation with highly varied skills and responsibilities - almost nobody has the same role or KPIs, not even within the football team itself.

My opinion is HR should do their fundamentals (pay, appraisals, crisis/performance management) and support the decision-makers to hire excellence.

Given that I don't even really understand what the HR scientist or OD professional roles, I tried to do some research online to find an explanation. For example (and these may be bad examples, I just took a cross-section):
https://www.hrtechnologist.com/articles/digital-transformation/the-rise-of-chief-hr-data-scientist/
https://www.visier.com/clarity/hr-data-scientist-top-skills/

Honestly I can barely understand what these articles are saying. It reads like the creme de la creme of management speak. I can only imagine how it would go down inside a football organisation, to have some HR Head come in and start talking about "procedure manuals" and "Diversity program evaluations".

I couldn't even imagine where a HR scientist would obtain a sufficiently robust dataset to be undertaking those kind of analyses, in a company of maybe 100 employees who all have different roles, and for whom half the staff mostly need to "run and tackle large men".

And apologies I don't mean this as an offence, I have an impression you know what you are talking about, but I'm thinking about this from the perspective of a football operation that has barely laid down their new plan for recruitment/performance pathways.

Hahaha, I don’t disagree with your points, but surely the club could do with some improvement in its organisational structure. These guys seem to be getting in each other’s way, even when they go on a mission as a group(Pangai ) they stuff it up. I’m thinking it’s the underlying issue which prevents players signing on and dampens the enthusiasm of existing players? Let’s face it, the organisational culture is driven from the top down. I’m not suggesting the OD consultant be there full time, just long enough to departmentalise and introduce some accountability, maybe 3 years? ?

I think it's impossible to judge that from the outside. Or, conversely, we don't know that they haven't hired consultants.

For example there's a new video from Kimmorley about starting his new role and who his boss is. He seems very clear on his role and responsibilities, from the outside. And given they've now installed several new pathways roles, it would make sense they'll take some time to figure out what they really want to achieve and how they will achieve that.

 

[sly]

This system is used at every dev club anyway. It has its advantages, like everyone being on the same page, and when guys get to first grade , they supposedly need vey little basic skill training because it’s all been done, and the head coach can work on man management and tactics etc...but it also has a lot of disadvantages. Des hasler used to use it at the bulldogs primarily to weed out any coach on the way up that was a free thinker and looked like having ability ,he rissoled any possible threat very quickly. Junior coaches would be given play books, warm up routines.... etc , he would send down kelly Egan to junior rep training and didn’t matter if Matt’s or ball were going well if Kelly thought the coach knew what he was doing, they were punted for “not following procedure”. The major thing for a coach is how you get your message across, and in this club it seems the third grade coach is the best at it, but if players like him and more importantly respond to him, he may not be here much longerunder the new system. Funny game rugby league, especially of the park.


Yes, I’m surprised that WT have not supported this coaching method, it allows decision making around roster rotation easier and would therefor create more opportunities for younger players. Seems unorthodox to sack a coach because he is good? More than likely a coach would get sacked for deviating from his job description? ?, You would think that would be the case wouldn’t you, put it this way, your coaching first grade, your not winning games, the lower grades are doing well, very quickly the first grade coach perceives that he’s under pressure from everywhere, internal, whether that pressure is true or not, why aren’t these players responding?why are the lower grades going well, am I not performing as a coach? Who in the club is stabbing me? Why does this player talk to me but that player won’t, is he with or against me?first grade coaches have massive egos too, I’m the first grade coach I don’t need help, I know what I’m doing. There are 2 coaches in the nrl, the Bellamy’s and the Bennett’s, they are experienced and are not threatened to have smarter people then them, running day to day operations and game day tactics etc.... I can tell you first hand that they both still ring warren Ryan and ask him his opinion about game trends, how the games being officiated, what he thinks about this player that player...etc, and there’s the Maguire, O’Brien’s, etc.... talk for the sake of talking, smash job interviews but always have that underlying doubt about what there doing, if you have played league under some good coahes, you will know after watching the West’s tigers doco, Maguire talks for the sake of talking, you can pick it a mile away. An outsider or supporter would see it as supportive and he cares about his players, I see it as talking for the sake of talking and there is way to much desperation in his approach. In the 80’s I once played under a fist grade coach who was out of the winfield cup for a couple of years, go out the there and smash them, his tactics were every week, Pretty soon you stop responding, it’s all about if players a. Think you know what your talking about and b. How you get your message across to guy’s from various backgrounds and upbringings. Don’t over complicate.

 

[twentyforty]

This system is used at every dev club anyway. It has its advantages, like everyone being on the same page, and when guys get to first grade , they supposedly need vey little basic skill training because it’s all been done, and the head coach can work on man management and tactics etc...but it also has a lot of disadvantages. Des hasler used to use it at the bulldogs primarily to weed out any coach on the way up that was a free thinker and looked like having ability ,he rissoled any possible threat very quickly. Junior coaches would be given play books, warm up routines.... etc , he would send down kelly Egan to junior rep training and didn’t matter if Matt’s or ball were going well if Kelly thought the coach knew what he was doing, they were punted for “not following procedure”. The major thing for a coach is how you get your message across, and in this club it seems the third grade coach is the best at it, but if players like him and more importantly respond to him, he may not be here much longerunder the new system. Funny game rugby league, especially of the park.


Yes, I’m surprised that WT have not supported this coaching method, it allows decision making around roster rotation easier and would therefor create more opportunities for younger players. Seems unorthodox to sack a coach because he is good? More than likely a coach would get sacked for deviating from his job description? ?, You would think that would be the case wouldn’t you, put it this way, your coaching first grade, your not winning games, the lower grades are doing well, very quickly the first grade coach perceives that he’s under pressure from everywhere, internal, whether that pressure is true or not, why aren’t these players responding?why are the lower grades going well, am I not performing as a coach? Who in the club is stabbing me? Why does this player talk to me but that player won’t, is he with or against me?first grade coaches have massive egos too, I’m the first grade coach I don’t need help, I know what I’m doing. There are 2 coaches in the nrl, the Bellamy’s and the Bennett’s, they are experienced and are not threatened to have smarter people then them, running day to day operations and game day tactics etc.... I can tell you first hand that they both still ring warren Ryan and ask him his opinion about game trends, how the games being officiated, what he thinks about this player that player...etc, and there’s the Maguire, O’Brien’s, etc.... talk for the sake of talking, smash job interviews but always have that underlying doubt about what there doing, if you have played league under some good coahes, you will know after watching the West’s tigers doco, Maguire talks for the sake of talking, you can pick it a mile away. An outsider or supporter would see it as supportive and he cares about his players, I see it as talking for the sake of talking and there is way to much desperation in his approach. In the 80’s I once played under a fist grade coach who was out of the winfield cup for a couple of years, go out the there and smash them, his tactics were every week, Pretty soon you stop responding, it’s all about if players a. Think you know what your talking about and b. How you get your message across to guy’s from various backgrounds and upbringings. Don’t over complicate.

I hear what you’re saying, and sure I imagine some coaches who haven’t reached legend status may develop various levels of paranoia, especially when the club chair publicly ensures the club’s full support haha.
I watched part 1 of the doco, and if the players are facing that verbal onslaught every game day then I can understand why they get a slow start. I can’t imagine Madge not varying his approach. I can’t imagine Bellamy not having at least one other style of delivery, I mean other than what we see in the msm. I’ve seen Jack Gibson in the shed talk to his team before a big game. Nowhere near as animated or colourful as Madge haha.
The relationship the coach has with his players to some extent will influence the way he delivers his message, I imagine.