Paul Kent: Wests Tigers’ rebuild taking shape

[earl]

But, at best, Madge’s direct coaching idiosyncrasies are just a small factor in what is one, albeit key, outcome, which is winning footy games.

I'm not sold on his coaching ability. Sheens was a fantastic coach in that he would come up with these trick plays to score points.

The problem is we were under achievers with Sheensy as well.

My take is that all coaches are overpaid because they aren't actually that important to winning footy games.

 

[Spartan117]

Only one coach that I would be an upgrade on Madge. That's Bellamy.

No one has the Drive, Passion and the guts to make the long term decisions that will bring us out of these 15 years of failure.

 

[Kelce68]

There is no evidence that a new coach, particularly with who is available, could get any more out of this particular crop of players.

There is no evidence, that any of the available potential head coaches have any greater pulling power, particularly as a Tigers head coach, than Madge does.

So the old trope becomes '... well, they couldn't do any worse!'

Yes. Yes they absolutely could.

In signings, they could have missed or not identified Laurie, Stefano, Simpkins, Simpkin, Blore and AD.
In results, they could have us running dead last, on no wins.

A change could always be worse.

So if you feel it's going to be beneficial to change the head coach halfway through a rebuild, provide some evidence as to exactly how, with examples, Flanagan, Henry, Cartwright, Ryles, Ciraldo or any of the other possible suitors would improve things.

Specifically.

And you have no evidence Madge will improve the NRL team next year, he has had a million plus to throw at Latrell, big money for JAC, TPJ and Finucane, so he has money but can't attract players.
So how is he going to improve the side, he has failed to improve the side in 3 seasons, he has bought a stack of players who are now what everyone calls duds, so your reasoning is no better than those you are calling out.
I in my opinion, yes just like you I have one, Flanagan or Ciraldo would not only improve the side, but attract some better players.
Ciraldo has improved Penriths defence enormously, something Madge can't acheive here

I most certainly do.

- He has started to finalise several long term key positions.
- Laurie's positional play and attacking orientation has improved.
- Brooks' involvement and execution has improved this year.
- AD is playing straighter and has become more selective with his passing game.
- He has brought in nearly a dozen rookies for debuts in the last 12 months, many of whom will be in the setup next year and will have benefitted from the experience.
- Our attacking structures, whilst still a work in progress, rarely fail to puncture the opposition defence, something that continued combination time will undoubtedly improve.
- He has, along with the football department, reinstated or developed progression pathways in the indigenous space (Awabakal and appointment of Tahu as a mentor) and junior development (MacArthur and appointment of Kimmorley)
- He, with Hartigan, have change recruitment approach away from paying overs for players and finding those with beneficial stipulations in the club's favour, e.g. Roberts and Leilua club options, Broncos paying Joffa, etc.
- He has identified failed experiments (Leilua and Roberts) and dead-end solutions (Chee Kam, Benji, Eisenhuth) and not allowed them to be extended beyond their useable lifespan at the club.

No doubt Ciraldo has the potential to be a good coach, but he has done so as an assistant only, zero experience as a head coach and has done so with one of the most talented rosters in the league, not Wests Tigers.

 

[Demps]

@Kelce68

Great post.

🔥🔥🔥

 

[tigertuff]

There is no evidence that a new coach, particularly with who is available, could get any more out of this particular crop of players.

There is no evidence, that any of the available potential head coaches have any greater pulling power, particularly as a Tigers head coach, than Madge does.

So the old trope becomes '... well, they couldn't do any worse!'

Yes. Yes they absolutely could.

In signings, they could have missed or not identified Laurie, Stefano, Simpkins, Simpkin, Blore and AD.
In results, they could have us running dead last, on no wins.

A change could always be worse.

So if you feel it's going to be beneficial to change the head coach halfway through a rebuild, provide some evidence as to exactly how, with examples, Flanagan, Henry, Cartwright, Ryles, Ciraldo or any of the other possible suitors would improve things.

Specifically.

Correct me if im wrong but you are suggesting we hold on to the coach no matter how bad he is just because we are in a rebuild.

 

[avocadoontoast]

There is no evidence that a new coach, particularly with who is available, could get any more out of this particular crop of players.

There is no evidence, that any of the available potential head coaches have any greater pulling power, particularly as a Tigers head coach, than Madge does.

So the old trope becomes '... well, they couldn't do any worse!'

Yes. Yes they absolutely could.

In signings, they could have missed or not identified Laurie, Stefano, Simpkins, Simpkin, Blore and AD.
In results, they could have us running dead last, on no wins.

A change could always be worse.

So if you feel it's going to be beneficial to change the head coach halfway through a rebuild, provide some evidence as to exactly how, with examples, Flanagan, Henry, Cartwright, Ryles, Ciraldo or any of the other possible suitors would improve things.

Specifically.

And you have no evidence Madge will improve the NRL team next year, he has had a million plus to throw at Latrell, big money for JAC, TPJ and Finucane, so he has money but can't attract players.
So how is he going to improve the side, he has failed to improve the side in 3 seasons, he has bought a stack of players who are now what everyone calls duds, so your reasoning is no better than those you are calling out.
I in my opinion, yes just like you I have one, Flanagan or Ciraldo would not only improve the side, but attract some better players.
Ciraldo has improved Penriths defence enormously, something Madge can't acheive here

I most certainly do.

- He has started to finalise several long term key positions.
- Laurie's positional play and attacking orientation has improved.
- Brooks' involvement and execution has improved this year.
- AD is playing straighter and has become more selective with his passing game.
- He has brought in nearly a dozen rookies for debuts in the last 12 months, many of whom will be in the setup next year and will have benefitted from the experience.
- Our attacking structures, whilst still a work in progress, rarely fail to puncture the opposition defence, something that continued combination time will undoubtedly improve.
- He has, along with the football department, reinstated or developed progression pathways in the indigenous space (Awabakal and appointment of Tahu as a mentor) and junior development (MacArthur and appointment of Kimmorley)
- He, with Hartigan, have change recruitment approach away from paying overs for players and finding those with beneficial stipulations in the club's favour, e.g. Roberts and Leilua club options, Broncos paying Joffa, etc.
- He has identified failed experiments (Leilua and Roberts) and dead-end solutions (Chee Kam, Benji, Eisenhuth) and not allowed them to be extended beyond their useable lifespan at the club.

No doubt Ciraldo has the potential to be a good coach, but he has done so as an assistant only, zero experience as a head coach and has done so with one of the most talented rosters in the league, not Wests Tigers.

What do you think of our defence?

 

[TheDaBoss]

There is no evidence that a new coach, particularly with who is available, could get any more out of this particular crop of players.

There is no evidence, that any of the available potential head coaches have any greater pulling power, particularly as a Tigers head coach, than Madge does.

So the old trope becomes '... well, they couldn't do any worse!'

Yes. Yes they absolutely could.

In signings, they could have missed or not identified Laurie, Stefano, Simpkins, Simpkin, Blore and AD.
In results, they could have us running dead last, on no wins.

A change could always be worse.

So if you feel it's going to be beneficial to change the head coach halfway through a rebuild, provide some evidence as to exactly how, with examples, Flanagan, Henry, Cartwright, Ryles, Ciraldo or any of the other possible suitors would improve things.

Specifically.

And you have no evidence Madge will improve the NRL team next year, he has had a million plus to throw at Latrell, big money for JAC, TPJ and Finucane, so he has money but can't attract players.
So how is he going to improve the side, he has failed to improve the side in 3 seasons, he has bought a stack of players who are now what everyone calls duds, so your reasoning is no better than those you are calling out.
I in my opinion, yes just like you I have one, Flanagan or Ciraldo would not only improve the side, but attract some better players.
Ciraldo has improved Penriths defence enormously, something Madge can't acheive here

I most certainly do.

- He has started to finalise several long term key positions.
- Laurie's positional play and attacking orientation has improved.
- Brooks' involvement and execution has improved this year.
- AD is playing straighter and has become more selective with his passing game.
- He has brought in nearly a dozen rookies for debuts in the last 12 months, many of whom will be in the setup next year and will have benefitted from the experience.
- Our attacking structures, whilst still a work in progress, rarely fail to puncture the opposition defence, something that continued combination time will undoubtedly improve.
- He has, along with the football department, reinstated or developed progression pathways in the indigenous space (Awabakal and appointment of Tahu as a mentor) and junior development (MacArthur and appointment of Kimmorley)
- He, with Hartigan, have change recruitment approach away from paying overs for players and finding those with beneficial stipulations in the club's favour, e.g. Roberts and Leilua club options, Broncos paying Joffa, etc.
- He has identified failed experiments (Leilua and Roberts) and dead-end solutions (Chee Kam, Benji, Eisenhuth) and not allowed them to be extended beyond their useable lifespan at the club.

No doubt Ciraldo has the potential to be a good coach, but he has done so as an assistant only, zero experience as a head coach and has done so with one of the most talented rosters in the league, not Wests Tigers.

What do you think of our defence?

What defence?

 

[GCfan]

But, at best, Madge’s direct coaching idiosyncrasies are just a small factor in what is one, albeit key, outcome, which is winning footy games.

I'm not sold on his coaching ability. Sheens was a fantastic coach in that he would come up with these trick plays to score points.

The problem is we were under achievers with Sheensy as well.

My take is that all coaches are overpaid because they aren't actually that important to winning footy games.

We need trick plays to stop tries though. Our attack isn’t our problem currently

 

[Kelce68]

There is no evidence that a new coach, particularly with who is available, could get any more out of this particular crop of players.

There is no evidence, that any of the available potential head coaches have any greater pulling power, particularly as a Tigers head coach, than Madge does.

So the old trope becomes '... well, they couldn't do any worse!'

Yes. Yes they absolutely could.

In signings, they could have missed or not identified Laurie, Stefano, Simpkins, Simpkin, Blore and AD.
In results, they could have us running dead last, on no wins.

A change could always be worse.

So if you feel it's going to be beneficial to change the head coach halfway through a rebuild, provide some evidence as to exactly how, with examples, Flanagan, Henry, Cartwright, Ryles, Ciraldo or any of the other possible suitors would improve things.

Specifically.


Correct me if im wrong but you are suggesting we hold on to the coach no matter how bad he is just because we are in a rebuild.

No, I'm saying that there are improvements happening in a large number of areas that are required and that has and will bring with it some short term pain. We are in the middle of that now.

There comes a time where everyone's time is up, but after cooling my socks as the year has worn on, I'm more inclined to stay patient for now considering all the behind the scenes and small-scale improvements that are going on.

 

[Kelce68]

There is no evidence that a new coach, particularly with who is available, could get any more out of this particular crop of players.

There is no evidence, that any of the available potential head coaches have any greater pulling power, particularly as a Tigers head coach, than Madge does.

So the old trope becomes '... well, they couldn't do any worse!'

Yes. Yes they absolutely could.

In signings, they could have missed or not identified Laurie, Stefano, Simpkins, Simpkin, Blore and AD.
In results, they could have us running dead last, on no wins.

A change could always be worse.

So if you feel it's going to be beneficial to change the head coach halfway through a rebuild, provide some evidence as to exactly how, with examples, Flanagan, Henry, Cartwright, Ryles, Ciraldo or any of the other possible suitors would improve things.

Specifically.

And you have no evidence Madge will improve the NRL team next year, he has had a million plus to throw at Latrell, big money for JAC, TPJ and Finucane, so he has money but can't attract players.
So how is he going to improve the side, he has failed to improve the side in 3 seasons, he has bought a stack of players who are now what everyone calls duds, so your reasoning is no better than those you are calling out.
I in my opinion, yes just like you I have one, Flanagan or Ciraldo would not only improve the side, but attract some better players.
Ciraldo has improved Penriths defence enormously, something Madge can't acheive here

I most certainly do.

- He has started to finalise several long term key positions.
- Laurie's positional play and attacking orientation has improved.
- Brooks' involvement and execution has improved this year.
- AD is playing straighter and has become more selective with his passing game.
- He has brought in nearly a dozen rookies for debuts in the last 12 months, many of whom will be in the setup next year and will have benefitted from the experience.
- Our attacking structures, whilst still a work in progress, rarely fail to puncture the opposition defence, something that continued combination time will undoubtedly improve.
- He has, along with the football department, reinstated or developed progression pathways in the indigenous space (Awabakal and appointment of Tahu as a mentor) and junior development (MacArthur and appointment of Kimmorley)
- He, with Hartigan, have change recruitment approach away from paying overs for players and finding those with beneficial stipulations in the club's favour, e.g. Roberts and Leilua club options, Broncos paying Joffa, etc.
- He has identified failed experiments (Leilua and Roberts) and dead-end solutions (Chee Kam, Benji, Eisenhuth) and not allowed them to be extended beyond their useable lifespan at the club.

No doubt Ciraldo has the potential to be a good coach, but he has done so as an assistant only, zero experience as a head coach and has done so with one of the most talented rosters in the league, not Wests Tigers.

What do you think of our defence?

Needs work. No doubt.

But I think its less the defensive structures and tactics and more the resilience and willingness of the on field team. That is a roster issue.

For example, very rarely will we be completely out played in a set leading to a try, it is more often bad reads, one-on-one misses, poor line speed or unwillingness to enter into the contact. Those are primarily, not exclusively, but primarily player issues. Not coaching issues.

 

[tigertuff]

There is no evidence that a new coach, particularly with who is available, could get any more out of this particular crop of players.

There is no evidence, that any of the available potential head coaches have any greater pulling power, particularly as a Tigers head coach, than Madge does.

So the old trope becomes '... well, they couldn't do any worse!'

Yes. Yes they absolutely could.

In signings, they could have missed or not identified Laurie, Stefano, Simpkins, Simpkin, Blore and AD.
In results, they could have us running dead last, on no wins.

A change could always be worse.

So if you feel it's going to be beneficial to change the head coach halfway through a rebuild, provide some evidence as to exactly how, with examples, Flanagan, Henry, Cartwright, Ryles, Ciraldo or any of the other possible suitors would improve things.

Specifically.

And you have no evidence Madge will improve the NRL team next year, he has had a million plus to throw at Latrell, big money for JAC, TPJ and Finucane, so he has money but can't attract players.
So how is he going to improve the side, he has failed to improve the side in 3 seasons, he has bought a stack of players who are now what everyone calls duds, so your reasoning is no better than those you are calling out.
I in my opinion, yes just like you I have one, Flanagan or Ciraldo would not only improve the side, but attract some better players.
Ciraldo has improved Penriths defence enormously, something Madge can't acheive here

I most certainly do.

- He has started to finalise several long term key positions.
- Laurie's positional play and attacking orientation has improved.
- Brooks' involvement and execution has improved this year.
- AD is playing straighter and has become more selective with his passing game.
- He has brought in nearly a dozen rookies for debuts in the last 12 months, many of whom will be in the setup next year and will have benefitted from the experience.
- Our attacking structures, whilst still a work in progress, rarely fail to puncture the opposition defence, something that continued combination time will undoubtedly improve.
- He has, along with the football department, reinstated or developed progression pathways in the indigenous space (Awabakal and appointment of Tahu as a mentor) and junior development (MacArthur and appointment of Kimmorley)
- He, with Hartigan, have change recruitment approach away from paying overs for players and finding those with beneficial stipulations in the club's favour, e.g. Roberts and Leilua club options, Broncos paying Joffa, etc.
- He has identified failed experiments (Leilua and Roberts) and dead-end solutions (Chee Kam, Benji, Eisenhuth) and not allowed them to be extended beyond their useable lifespan at the club.

No doubt Ciraldo has the potential to be a good coach, but he has done so as an assistant only, zero experience as a head coach and has done so with one of the most talented rosters in the league, not Wests Tigers.

What do you think of our defence?

Needs work. No doubt.

But I think its less the defensive structures and tactics and more the resilience and willingness of the on field team. That is a roster issue.

For example, very rarely will we be completely out played in a set leading to a try, it is more often bad reads, one-on-one misses, poor line speed or unwillingness to enter into the contact. Those are primarily, not exclusively, but primarily player issues. Not coaching issues.

Gee your opening yourself up for some debate here.

 

[Kelce68]

There is no evidence that a new coach, particularly with who is available, could get any more out of this particular crop of players.

There is no evidence, that any of the available potential head coaches have any greater pulling power, particularly as a Tigers head coach, than Madge does.

So the old trope becomes '... well, they couldn't do any worse!'

Yes. Yes they absolutely could.

In signings, they could have missed or not identified Laurie, Stefano, Simpkins, Simpkin, Blore and AD.
In results, they could have us running dead last, on no wins.

A change could always be worse.

So if you feel it's going to be beneficial to change the head coach halfway through a rebuild, provide some evidence as to exactly how, with examples, Flanagan, Henry, Cartwright, Ryles, Ciraldo or any of the other possible suitors would improve things.

Specifically.

And you have no evidence Madge will improve the NRL team next year, he has had a million plus to throw at Latrell, big money for JAC, TPJ and Finucane, so he has money but can't attract players.
So how is he going to improve the side, he has failed to improve the side in 3 seasons, he has bought a stack of players who are now what everyone calls duds, so your reasoning is no better than those you are calling out.
I in my opinion, yes just like you I have one, Flanagan or Ciraldo would not only improve the side, but attract some better players.
Ciraldo has improved Penriths defence enormously, something Madge can't acheive here

I most certainly do.

- He has started to finalise several long term key positions.
- Laurie's positional play and attacking orientation has improved.
- Brooks' involvement and execution has improved this year.
- AD is playing straighter and has become more selective with his passing game.
- He has brought in nearly a dozen rookies for debuts in the last 12 months, many of whom will be in the setup next year and will have benefitted from the experience.
- Our attacking structures, whilst still a work in progress, rarely fail to puncture the opposition defence, something that continued combination time will undoubtedly improve.
- He has, along with the football department, reinstated or developed progression pathways in the indigenous space (Awabakal and appointment of Tahu as a mentor) and junior development (MacArthur and appointment of Kimmorley)
- He, with Hartigan, have change recruitment approach away from paying overs for players and finding those with beneficial stipulations in the club's favour, e.g. Roberts and Leilua club options, Broncos paying Joffa, etc.
- He has identified failed experiments (Leilua and Roberts) and dead-end solutions (Chee Kam, Benji, Eisenhuth) and not allowed them to be extended beyond their useable lifespan at the club.

No doubt Ciraldo has the potential to be a good coach, but he has done so as an assistant only, zero experience as a head coach and has done so with one of the most talented rosters in the league, not Wests Tigers.

What do you think of our defence?

Needs work. No doubt.

But I think its less the defensive structures and tactics and more the resilience and willingness of the on field team. That is a roster issue.

For example, very rarely will we be completely out played in a set leading to a try, it is more often bad reads, one-on-one misses, poor line speed or unwillingness to enter into the contact. Those are primarily, not exclusively, but primarily player issues. Not coaching issues.

Gee your opening yourself up for some debate here.

So there should be, I'd be astonished if we all viewed our shortcomings the same way.

 

[851]

There is no evidence that a new coach, particularly with who is available, could get any more out of this particular crop of players.

There is no evidence, that any of the available potential head coaches have any greater pulling power, particularly as a Tigers head coach, than Madge does.

So the old trope becomes '... well, they couldn't do any worse!'

Yes. Yes they absolutely could.

In signings, they could have missed or not identified Laurie, Stefano, Simpkins, Simpkin, Blore and AD.
In results, they could have us running dead last, on no wins.

A change could always be worse.

So if you feel it's going to be beneficial to change the head coach halfway through a rebuild, provide some evidence as to exactly how, with examples, Flanagan, Henry, Cartwright, Ryles, Ciraldo or any of the other possible suitors would improve things.

Specifically.

And you have no evidence Madge will improve the NRL team next year, he has had a million plus to throw at Latrell, big money for JAC, TPJ and Finucane, so he has money but can't attract players.
So how is he going to improve the side, he has failed to improve the side in 3 seasons, he has bought a stack of players who are now what everyone calls duds, so your reasoning is no better than those you are calling out.
I in my opinion, yes just like you I have one, Flanagan or Ciraldo would not only improve the side, but attract some better players.
Ciraldo has improved Penriths defence enormously, something Madge can't acheive here

I most certainly do.

- He has started to finalise several long term key positions.
- Laurie's positional play and attacking orientation has improved.
- Brooks' involvement and execution has improved this year.
- AD is playing straighter and has become more selective with his passing game.
- He has brought in nearly a dozen rookies for debuts in the last 12 months, many of whom will be in the setup next year and will have benefitted from the experience.
- Our attacking structures, whilst still a work in progress, rarely fail to puncture the opposition defence, something that continued combination time will undoubtedly improve.
- He has, along with the football department, reinstated or developed progression pathways in the indigenous space (Awabakal and appointment of Tahu as a mentor) and junior development (MacArthur and appointment of Kimmorley)
- He, with Hartigan, have change recruitment approach away from paying overs for players and finding those with beneficial stipulations in the club's favour, e.g. Roberts and Leilua club options, Broncos paying Joffa, etc.
- He has identified failed experiments (Leilua and Roberts) and dead-end solutions (Chee Kam, Benji, Eisenhuth) and not allowed them to be extended beyond their useable lifespan at the club.

No doubt Ciraldo has the potential to be a good coach, but he has done so as an assistant only, zero experience as a head coach and has done so with one of the most talented rosters in the league, not Wests Tigers.

What do you think of our defence?

Needs work. No doubt.

But I think its less the defensive structures and tactics and more the resilience and willingness of the on field team. That is a roster issue.

For example, very rarely will we be completely out played in a set leading to a try, it is more often bad reads, one-on-one misses, poor line speed or unwillingness to enter into the contact. Those are primarily, not exclusively, but primarily player issues. **Not coaching issues.**

Do you not see the parallels to Madge's time at souths, do you actually think the players are listening to him, or playing for him, I can't see it.
At souths he was sacked 3 years after winning the premiership, the players were off him, a 12th place 2 years in a row, Seibold who is no great coach, came in and took them to 3rd the next year.
Madge has done well with the juniors, but the senior team has regressed, and it looks a lot like souths circa 2016/17, he appears to have not learnt one thing from his souths demise, and good players are still avoiding coming to play for him.
3 years and it still looks like there is no defensive structure, there is definitely no improvement, it has got worse, why will this suddenly change.
And our attack is clunky at best, no one seems to know what they are doing, the only time it looks half decent is when they are 30 behind and start throwing the ball around, this to me appears a coaching issue

 

[Kelce68]

There is no evidence that a new coach, particularly with who is available, could get any more out of this particular crop of players.

There is no evidence, that any of the available potential head coaches have any greater pulling power, particularly as a Tigers head coach, than Madge does.

So the old trope becomes '... well, they couldn't do any worse!'

Yes. Yes they absolutely could.

In signings, they could have missed or not identified Laurie, Stefano, Simpkins, Simpkin, Blore and AD.
In results, they could have us running dead last, on no wins.

A change could always be worse.

So if you feel it's going to be beneficial to change the head coach halfway through a rebuild, provide some evidence as to exactly how, with examples, Flanagan, Henry, Cartwright, Ryles, Ciraldo or any of the other possible suitors would improve things.

Specifically.

And you have no evidence Madge will improve the NRL team next year, he has had a million plus to throw at Latrell, big money for JAC, TPJ and Finucane, so he has money but can't attract players.
So how is he going to improve the side, he has failed to improve the side in 3 seasons, he has bought a stack of players who are now what everyone calls duds, so your reasoning is no better than those you are calling out.
I in my opinion, yes just like you I have one, Flanagan or Ciraldo would not only improve the side, but attract some better players.
Ciraldo has improved Penriths defence enormously, something Madge can't acheive here

I most certainly do.

- He has started to finalise several long term key positions.
- Laurie's positional play and attacking orientation has improved.
- Brooks' involvement and execution has improved this year.
- AD is playing straighter and has become more selective with his passing game.
- He has brought in nearly a dozen rookies for debuts in the last 12 months, many of whom will be in the setup next year and will have benefitted from the experience.
- Our attacking structures, whilst still a work in progress, rarely fail to puncture the opposition defence, something that continued combination time will undoubtedly improve.
- He has, along with the football department, reinstated or developed progression pathways in the indigenous space (Awabakal and appointment of Tahu as a mentor) and junior development (MacArthur and appointment of Kimmorley)
- He, with Hartigan, have change recruitment approach away from paying overs for players and finding those with beneficial stipulations in the club's favour, e.g. Roberts and Leilua club options, Broncos paying Joffa, etc.
- He has identified failed experiments (Leilua and Roberts) and dead-end solutions (Chee Kam, Benji, Eisenhuth) and not allowed them to be extended beyond their useable lifespan at the club.

No doubt Ciraldo has the potential to be a good coach, but he has done so as an assistant only, zero experience as a head coach and has done so with one of the most talented rosters in the league, not Wests Tigers.

What do you think of our defence?

Needs work. No doubt.

But I think its less the defensive structures and tactics and more the resilience and willingness of the on field team. That is a roster issue.

For example, very rarely will we be completely out played in a set leading to a try, it is more often bad reads, one-on-one misses, poor line speed or unwillingness to enter into the contact. Those are primarily, not exclusively, but primarily player issues. **Not coaching issues.**

Do you not see the parallels to Madge's time at souths, do you actually think the players are listening to him, or playing for him, I can't see it.
At souths he was sacked 3 years after winning the premiership, the players were off him, a 12th place 2 years in a row, Seibold who is no great coach, came in and took them to 3rd the next year.
Madge has done well with the juniors, but the senior team has regressed, and it looks a lot like souths circa 2016/17, he appears to have not learnt one thing from his souths demise, and good players are still avoiding coming to play for him.
3 years and it still looks like there is no defensive structure, there is definitely no improvement, it has got worse, why will this suddenly change.
And our attack is clunky at best, no one seems to know what they are doing, the only time it looks half decent is when they are 30 behind and start throwing the ball around, this to me appears a coaching issue

Those are fair assessments. I disagree with the comparisons, mainly because I think there is more differences than similarities in the situations and squads of the two teams.

I get that it's frustrating (I'm not allowed to watch games around the family anymore...), but do not think they are 'clunky at best', nor 'no one seems to know what they're doing', nor that 'there is no defensive structure'. I think these are all emotional exaggerations.

But I get it. I don't entirely disagree with all that you've said, maybe just the degree to which the problems lie at Madge's feet.

 

[mike]

There is no evidence that a new coach, particularly with who is available, could get any more out of this particular crop of players.

There is no evidence, that any of the available potential head coaches have any greater pulling power, particularly as a Tigers head coach, than Madge does.

So the old trope becomes '... well, they couldn't do any worse!'

Yes. Yes they absolutely could.

In signings, they could have missed or not identified Laurie, Stefano, Simpkins, Simpkin, Blore and AD.
In results, they could have us running dead last, on no wins.

A change could always be worse.

So if you feel it's going to be beneficial to change the head coach halfway through a rebuild, provide some evidence as to exactly how, with examples, Flanagan, Henry, Cartwright, Ryles, Ciraldo or any of the other possible suitors would improve things.

Specifically.

And you have no evidence Madge will improve the NRL team next year, he has had a million plus to throw at Latrell, big money for JAC, TPJ and Finucane, so he has money but can't attract players.
So how is he going to improve the side, he has failed to improve the side in 3 seasons, he has bought a stack of players who are now what everyone calls duds, so your reasoning is no better than those you are calling out.
I in my opinion, yes just like you I have one, Flanagan or Ciraldo would not only improve the side, but attract some better players.
Ciraldo has improved Penriths defence enormously, something Madge can't acheive here

I most certainly do.

- He has started to finalise several long term key positions.
- Laurie's positional play and attacking orientation has improved.
- Brooks' involvement and execution has improved this year.
- AD is playing straighter and has become more selective with his passing game.
- He has brought in nearly a dozen rookies for debuts in the last 12 months, many of whom will be in the setup next year and will have benefitted from the experience.
- Our attacking structures, whilst still a work in progress, rarely fail to puncture the opposition defence, something that continued combination time will undoubtedly improve.
- He has, along with the football department, reinstated or developed progression pathways in the indigenous space (Awabakal and appointment of Tahu as a mentor) and junior development (MacArthur and appointment of Kimmorley)
- He, with Hartigan, have change recruitment approach away from paying overs for players and finding those with beneficial stipulations in the club's favour, e.g. Roberts and Leilua club options, Broncos paying Joffa, etc.
- He has identified failed experiments (Leilua and Roberts) and dead-end solutions (Chee Kam, Benji, Eisenhuth) and not allowed them to be extended beyond their useable lifespan at the club.

No doubt Ciraldo has the potential to be a good coach, but he has done so as an assistant only, zero experience as a head coach and has done so with one of the most talented rosters in the league, not Wests Tigers.

What do you think of our defence?

Needs work. No doubt.

But I think its less the defensive structures and tactics and more the resilience and willingness of the on field team. That is a roster issue.

For example, very rarely will we be completely out played in a set leading to a try, it is more often bad reads, one-on-one misses, poor line speed or unwillingness to enter into the contact. Those are primarily, not exclusively, but primarily player issues. **Not coaching issues.**

Do you not see the parallels to Madge's time at souths, do you actually think the players are listening to him, or playing for him, I can't see it.
At souths he was sacked 3 years after winning the premiership, the players were off him, a 12th place 2 years in a row, Seibold who is no great coach, came in and took them to 3rd the next year.
Madge has done well with the juniors, but the senior team has regressed, and it looks a lot like souths circa 2016/17, he appears to have not learnt one thing from his souths demise, and good players are still avoiding coming to play for him.
3 years and it still looks like there is no defensive structure, there is definitely no improvement, it has got worse, why will this suddenly change.
And our attack is clunky at best, no one seems to know what they are doing, the only time it looks half decent is when they are 30 behind and start throwing the ball around, this to me appears a coaching issue

Those are fair assessments. I disagree with the comparisons, mainly because I think there is more differences than similarities in the situations and squads of the two teams.

I get that it's frustrating (**I'm not allowed to watch games around the family anymore...**), but do not think they are 'clunky at best', nor 'no one seems to know what they're doing', nor that 'there is no defensive structure'. I think these are all emotional exaggerations.

But I get it. I don't entirely disagree with all that you've said, maybe just the degree to which the problems lie at Madge's feet.

hahahahaha Potty mouth?

 

[Kelce68]

There is no evidence that a new coach, particularly with who is available, could get any more out of this particular crop of players.

There is no evidence, that any of the available potential head coaches have any greater pulling power, particularly as a Tigers head coach, than Madge does.

So the old trope becomes '... well, they couldn't do any worse!'

Yes. Yes they absolutely could.

In signings, they could have missed or not identified Laurie, Stefano, Simpkins, Simpkin, Blore and AD.
In results, they could have us running dead last, on no wins.

A change could always be worse.

So if you feel it's going to be beneficial to change the head coach halfway through a rebuild, provide some evidence as to exactly how, with examples, Flanagan, Henry, Cartwright, Ryles, Ciraldo or any of the other possible suitors would improve things.

Specifically.

And you have no evidence Madge will improve the NRL team next year, he has had a million plus to throw at Latrell, big money for JAC, TPJ and Finucane, so he has money but can't attract players.
So how is he going to improve the side, he has failed to improve the side in 3 seasons, he has bought a stack of players who are now what everyone calls duds, so your reasoning is no better than those you are calling out.
I in my opinion, yes just like you I have one, Flanagan or Ciraldo would not only improve the side, but attract some better players.
Ciraldo has improved Penriths defence enormously, something Madge can't acheive here

I most certainly do.

- He has started to finalise several long term key positions.
- Laurie's positional play and attacking orientation has improved.
- Brooks' involvement and execution has improved this year.
- AD is playing straighter and has become more selective with his passing game.
- He has brought in nearly a dozen rookies for debuts in the last 12 months, many of whom will be in the setup next year and will have benefitted from the experience.
- Our attacking structures, whilst still a work in progress, rarely fail to puncture the opposition defence, something that continued combination time will undoubtedly improve.
- He has, along with the football department, reinstated or developed progression pathways in the indigenous space (Awabakal and appointment of Tahu as a mentor) and junior development (MacArthur and appointment of Kimmorley)
- He, with Hartigan, have change recruitment approach away from paying overs for players and finding those with beneficial stipulations in the club's favour, e.g. Roberts and Leilua club options, Broncos paying Joffa, etc.
- He has identified failed experiments (Leilua and Roberts) and dead-end solutions (Chee Kam, Benji, Eisenhuth) and not allowed them to be extended beyond their useable lifespan at the club.

No doubt Ciraldo has the potential to be a good coach, but he has done so as an assistant only, zero experience as a head coach and has done so with one of the most talented rosters in the league, not Wests Tigers.

What do you think of our defence?

Needs work. No doubt.

But I think its less the defensive structures and tactics and more the resilience and willingness of the on field team. That is a roster issue.

For example, very rarely will we be completely out played in a set leading to a try, it is more often bad reads, one-on-one misses, poor line speed or unwillingness to enter into the contact. Those are primarily, not exclusively, but primarily player issues. **Not coaching issues.**

Do you not see the parallels to Madge's time at souths, do you actually think the players are listening to him, or playing for him, I can't see it.
At souths he was sacked 3 years after winning the premiership, the players were off him, a 12th place 2 years in a row, Seibold who is no great coach, came in and took them to 3rd the next year.
Madge has done well with the juniors, but the senior team has regressed, and it looks a lot like souths circa 2016/17, he appears to have not learnt one thing from his souths demise, and good players are still avoiding coming to play for him.
3 years and it still looks like there is no defensive structure, there is definitely no improvement, it has got worse, why will this suddenly change.
And our attack is clunky at best, no one seems to know what they are doing, the only time it looks half decent is when they are 30 behind and start throwing the ball around, this to me appears a coaching issue

Those are fair assessments. I disagree with the comparisons, mainly because I think there is more differences than similarities in the situations and squads of the two teams.

I get that it's frustrating (**I'm not allowed to watch games around the family anymore...**), but do not think they are 'clunky at best', nor 'no one seems to know what they're doing', nor that 'there is no defensive structure'. I think these are all emotional exaggerations.

But I get it. I don't entirely disagree with all that you've said, maybe just the degree to which the problems lie at Madge's feet.

hahahahaha Potty mouth?

Haha, that's the understatement of the year

 

[851]

There is no evidence that a new coach, particularly with who is available, could get any more out of this particular crop of players.

There is no evidence, that any of the available potential head coaches have any greater pulling power, particularly as a Tigers head coach, than Madge does.

So the old trope becomes '... well, they couldn't do any worse!'

Yes. Yes they absolutely could.

In signings, they could have missed or not identified Laurie, Stefano, Simpkins, Simpkin, Blore and AD.
In results, they could have us running dead last, on no wins.

A change could always be worse.

So if you feel it's going to be beneficial to change the head coach halfway through a rebuild, provide some evidence as to exactly how, with examples, Flanagan, Henry, Cartwright, Ryles, Ciraldo or any of the other possible suitors would improve things.

Specifically.

And you have no evidence Madge will improve the NRL team next year, he has had a million plus to throw at Latrell, big money for JAC, TPJ and Finucane, so he has money but can't attract players.
So how is he going to improve the side, he has failed to improve the side in 3 seasons, he has bought a stack of players who are now what everyone calls duds, so your reasoning is no better than those you are calling out.
I in my opinion, yes just like you I have one, Flanagan or Ciraldo would not only improve the side, but attract some better players.
Ciraldo has improved Penriths defence enormously, something Madge can't acheive here

I most certainly do.

- He has started to finalise several long term key positions.
- Laurie's positional play and attacking orientation has improved.
- Brooks' involvement and execution has improved this year.
- AD is playing straighter and has become more selective with his passing game.
- He has brought in nearly a dozen rookies for debuts in the last 12 months, many of whom will be in the setup next year and will have benefitted from the experience.
- Our attacking structures, whilst still a work in progress, rarely fail to puncture the opposition defence, something that continued combination time will undoubtedly improve.
- He has, along with the football department, reinstated or developed progression pathways in the indigenous space (Awabakal and appointment of Tahu as a mentor) and junior development (MacArthur and appointment of Kimmorley)
- He, with Hartigan, have change recruitment approach away from paying overs for players and finding those with beneficial stipulations in the club's favour, e.g. Roberts and Leilua club options, Broncos paying Joffa, etc.
- He has identified failed experiments (Leilua and Roberts) and dead-end solutions (Chee Kam, Benji, Eisenhuth) and not allowed them to be extended beyond their useable lifespan at the club.

No doubt Ciraldo has the potential to be a good coach, but he has done so as an assistant only, zero experience as a head coach and has done so with one of the most talented rosters in the league, not Wests Tigers.

What do you think of our defence?

Needs work. No doubt.

But I think its less the defensive structures and tactics and more the resilience and willingness of the on field team. That is a roster issue.

For example, very rarely will we be completely out played in a set leading to a try, it is more often bad reads, one-on-one misses, poor line speed or unwillingness to enter into the contact. Those are primarily, not exclusively, but primarily player issues. **Not coaching issues.**

Do you not see the parallels to Madge's time at souths, do you actually think the players are listening to him, or playing for him, I can't see it.
At souths he was sacked 3 years after winning the premiership, the players were off him, a 12th place 2 years in a row, Seibold who is no great coach, came in and took them to 3rd the next year.
Madge has done well with the juniors, but the senior team has regressed, and it looks a lot like souths circa 2016/17, he appears to have not learnt one thing from his souths demise, and good players are still avoiding coming to play for him.
3 years and it still looks like there is no defensive structure, there is definitely no improvement, it has got worse, why will this suddenly change.
And our attack is clunky at best, no one seems to know what they are doing, the only time it looks half decent is when they are 30 behind and start throwing the ball around, this to me appears a coaching issue

Those are fair assessments. I disagree with the comparisons, mainly because I think there is more differences than similarities in the situations and squads of the two teams.

I get that it's frustrating (**I'm not allowed to watch games around the family anymore...**), but do not think they are 'clunky at best', nor 'no one seems to know what they're doing', nor that 'there is no defensive structure'. I think these are all emotional exaggerations.

But I get it. I don't entirely disagree with all that you've said, maybe just the degree to which the problems lie at Madge's feet.

hahahahaha Potty mouth?

Haha, that's the understatement of the year

No different at my place either mate

 

[TrueTiger]

There is no evidence that a new coach, particularly with who is available, could get any more out of this particular crop of players.

There is no evidence, that any of the available potential head coaches have any greater pulling power, particularly as a Tigers head coach, than Madge does.

So the old trope becomes '... well, they couldn't do any worse!'

Yes. Yes they absolutely could.

In signings, they could have missed or not identified Laurie, Stefano, Simpkins, Simpkin, Blore and AD.
In results, they could have us running dead last, on no wins.

A change could always be worse.

So if you feel it's going to be beneficial to change the head coach halfway through a rebuild, provide some evidence as to exactly how, with examples, Flanagan, Henry, Cartwright, Ryles, Ciraldo or any of the other possible suitors would improve things.

Specifically.

And you have no evidence Madge will improve the NRL team next year, he has had a million plus to throw at Latrell, big money for JAC, TPJ and Finucane, so he has money but can't attract players.
So how is he going to improve the side, he has failed to improve the side in 3 seasons, he has bought a stack of players who are now what everyone calls duds, so your reasoning is no better than those you are calling out.
I in my opinion, yes just like you I have one, Flanagan or Ciraldo would not only improve the side, but attract some better players.
Ciraldo has improved Penriths defence enormously, something Madge can't acheive here

I most certainly do.

- He has started to finalise several long term key positions.
- Laurie's positional play and attacking orientation has improved.
- Brooks' involvement and execution has improved this year.
- AD is playing straighter and has become more selective with his passing game.
- He has brought in nearly a dozen rookies for debuts in the last 12 months, many of whom will be in the setup next year and will have benefitted from the experience.
- Our attacking structures, whilst still a work in progress, rarely fail to puncture the opposition defence, something that continued combination time will undoubtedly improve.
- He has, along with the football department, reinstated or developed progression pathways in the indigenous space (Awabakal and appointment of Tahu as a mentor) and junior development (MacArthur and appointment of Kimmorley)
- He, with Hartigan, have change recruitment approach away from paying overs for players and finding those with beneficial stipulations in the club's favour, e.g. Roberts and Leilua club options, Broncos paying Joffa, etc.
- He has identified failed experiments (Leilua and Roberts) and dead-end solutions (Chee Kam, Benji, Eisenhuth) and not allowed them to be extended beyond their useable lifespan at the club.

No doubt Ciraldo has the potential to be a good coach, but he has done so as an assistant only, zero experience as a head coach and has done so with one of the most talented rosters in the league, not Wests Tigers.

What do you think of our defence?

Needs work. No doubt.

But I think its less the defensive structures and tactics and more the resilience and willingness of the on field team. That is a roster issue.

For example, very rarely will we be completely out played in a set leading to a try, it is more often bad reads, one-on-one misses, poor line speed or unwillingness to enter into the contact. Those are primarily, not exclusively, but primarily player issues. **Not coaching issues.**

Do you not see the parallels to Madge's time at souths, do you actually think the players are listening to him, or playing for him, I can't see it.
At souths he was sacked 3 years after winning the premiership, the players were off him, a 12th place 2 years in a row, Seibold who is no great coach, came in and took them to 3rd the next year.
Madge has done well with the juniors, but the senior team has regressed, and it looks a lot like souths circa 2016/17, he appears to have not learnt one thing from his souths demise, and good players are still avoiding coming to play for him.
3 years and it still looks like there is no defensive structure, there is definitely no improvement, it has got worse, why will this suddenly change.
And our attack is clunky at best, no one seems to know what they are doing, the only time it looks half decent is when they are 30 behind and start throwing the ball around, this to me appears a coaching issue

Those are fair assessments. I disagree with the comparisons, mainly because I think there is more differences than similarities in the situations and squads of the two teams.

I get that it's frustrating (**I'm not allowed to watch games around the family anymore...**), but do not think they are 'clunky at best', nor 'no one seems to know what they're doing', nor that 'there is no defensive structure'. I think these are all emotional exaggerations.

But I get it. I don't entirely disagree with all that you've said, maybe just the degree to which the problems lie at Madge's feet.

hahahahaha Potty mouth?

Haha, that's the understatement of the year

No different at my place either mate

And thats exactly why I was sent to my man cave up the shed when the ex and I were together...

 

[851]

There is no evidence that a new coach, particularly with who is available, could get any more out of this particular crop of players.

There is no evidence, that any of the available potential head coaches have any greater pulling power, particularly as a Tigers head coach, than Madge does.

So the old trope becomes '... well, they couldn't do any worse!'

Yes. Yes they absolutely could.

In signings, they could have missed or not identified Laurie, Stefano, Simpkins, Simpkin, Blore and AD.
In results, they could have us running dead last, on no wins.

A change could always be worse.

So if you feel it's going to be beneficial to change the head coach halfway through a rebuild, provide some evidence as to exactly how, with examples, Flanagan, Henry, Cartwright, Ryles, Ciraldo or any of the other possible suitors would improve things.

Specifically.

And you have no evidence Madge will improve the NRL team next year, he has had a million plus to throw at Latrell, big money for JAC, TPJ and Finucane, so he has money but can't attract players.
So how is he going to improve the side, he has failed to improve the side in 3 seasons, he has bought a stack of players who are now what everyone calls duds, so your reasoning is no better than those you are calling out.
I in my opinion, yes just like you I have one, Flanagan or Ciraldo would not only improve the side, but attract some better players.
Ciraldo has improved Penriths defence enormously, something Madge can't acheive here

I most certainly do.

- He has started to finalise several long term key positions.
- Laurie's positional play and attacking orientation has improved.
- Brooks' involvement and execution has improved this year.
- AD is playing straighter and has become more selective with his passing game.
- He has brought in nearly a dozen rookies for debuts in the last 12 months, many of whom will be in the setup next year and will have benefitted from the experience.
- Our attacking structures, whilst still a work in progress, rarely fail to puncture the opposition defence, something that continued combination time will undoubtedly improve.
- He has, along with the football department, reinstated or developed progression pathways in the indigenous space (Awabakal and appointment of Tahu as a mentor) and junior development (MacArthur and appointment of Kimmorley)
- He, with Hartigan, have change recruitment approach away from paying overs for players and finding those with beneficial stipulations in the club's favour, e.g. Roberts and Leilua club options, Broncos paying Joffa, etc.
- He has identified failed experiments (Leilua and Roberts) and dead-end solutions (Chee Kam, Benji, Eisenhuth) and not allowed them to be extended beyond their useable lifespan at the club.

No doubt Ciraldo has the potential to be a good coach, but he has done so as an assistant only, zero experience as a head coach and has done so with one of the most talented rosters in the league, not Wests Tigers.

What do you think of our defence?

Needs work. No doubt.

But I think its less the defensive structures and tactics and more the resilience and willingness of the on field team. That is a roster issue.

For example, very rarely will we be completely out played in a set leading to a try, it is more often bad reads, one-on-one misses, poor line speed or unwillingness to enter into the contact. Those are primarily, not exclusively, but primarily player issues. **Not coaching issues.**

Do you not see the parallels to Madge's time at souths, do you actually think the players are listening to him, or playing for him, I can't see it.
At souths he was sacked 3 years after winning the premiership, the players were off him, a 12th place 2 years in a row, Seibold who is no great coach, came in and took them to 3rd the next year.
Madge has done well with the juniors, but the senior team has regressed, and it looks a lot like souths circa 2016/17, he appears to have not learnt one thing from his souths demise, and good players are still avoiding coming to play for him.
3 years and it still looks like there is no defensive structure, there is definitely no improvement, it has got worse, why will this suddenly change.
And our attack is clunky at best, no one seems to know what they are doing, the only time it looks half decent is when they are 30 behind and start throwing the ball around, this to me appears a coaching issue

Those are fair assessments. I disagree with the comparisons, mainly because I think there is more differences than similarities in the situations and squads of the two teams.

I get that it's frustrating (**I'm not allowed to watch games around the family anymore...**), but do not think they are 'clunky at best', nor 'no one seems to know what they're doing', nor that 'there is no defensive structure'. I think these are all emotional exaggerations.

But I get it. I don't entirely disagree with all that you've said, maybe just the degree to which the problems lie at Madge's feet.

hahahahaha Potty mouth?

Haha, that's the understatement of the year

No different at my place either mate

And thats exactly why I was sent to my man cave up the shed when the ex and I were together...

This club has done it to us all, they need to lift their game so us supporters can enjoy our footy again

 

[Wildcat777]

Agreed and is a slow process. Will take 4-5 years at least, ie to be consistent over a number of years and not just a one off fluke.