Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

[Cultured_Bogan]

Unfortunately Happy, it doesn't matter who our treasurer was during the GFC, I think the outcome would have been the same. The approach would have been different perhaps by the Libs, but that's where the differences end.

Given the scope of the nations economy and the largely the fact that we rely on natural resources, without that only then would the mettle of either Costello and Swan truly be tested.

The collapsing/collapsed economies in the US and Europe will give an insight as to how real problems are dealt with. No matter who is in power, on the large scale we really don't know how lucky we are…

 

[cunno]

By all reports we are lucky and doing well compared to other countries, it's a pity though that our 'luckiness' doesn't make life a little easier for Australians through things like lower interest rates, a halt to escalating electricity and water bills, less dramas with hospitals, a lot less congestion on our roads in peak hour e.g the M5 carpark. Don't get me wrong I'm glad I live in this country but it would be nice if governments would lift their game.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

I agree somewhat Cunno, we're all after the Utopian society. However, there's a large flow and effect on a great deal of issues. Utilities companies are raising rates, so we reduce consumption, which in turn creates rate increases again to deliver dividends for the shareholders. As a consumer it's a double edged sword, weighing up consumption vs. sustainability. I'm in the position where we use bugger all electricity but if we don't use a certain amount, it only means that it will drive up prices.

It's the same with essential services such police, roads & hospitals. If they could guarantee that every cent of the carbon tax would go into these services, you wouldn't hear a whimper from me. However, I'd expect state-of-the-art services from here on in for absolutely everybody.

In regards to roads, we're in the unfortunate position that we're a poorly laid out city. That is definitely something Melbourne has on us.

 

[cunno]

You are right about Melbourne CB it was easier to drive around last time I was down there. I have concerns about the carbon tax, at this stage it looks more like a political move rather than one that will aid the environment or Australians. If it looked like it was going to make a difference to our world and our standard of living I would be all for it but at the moment, based on the information I'm aware of, it looks more like an expensive nothing decision.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

Anyone who knows better will see its the way that Labor will get back into surplus in 2013 like they promised. It's been well documented that it isn't a quick path to counter emissions or global warming.

As I've said repeatedly, we need a GENUINE third party as an alternative. I don't who will put their hand up, but hopefully someone gives the electorate some inkling at the next election that the Greens aren't a viable third party. I pray that the Dems come back in some respectable capacity…

 

[happy_tiger]

Unfortunately Happy, it doesn't matter who our treasurer was during the GFC, I think the outcome would have been the same. The approach would have been different perhaps by the Libs, but that's where the differences end.

Given the scope of the nations economy and the largely the fact that we rely on natural resources, without that only then would the mettle of either Costello and Swan truly be tested.

The collapsing/collapsed economies in the US and Europe will give an insight as to how real problems are dealt with. No matter who is in power, on the large scale we really don't know how lucky we are…

No doubt we are the lucky country Bogan
But to say that Swan is responsible for our ability to cope far better than many other countries in drawing an extremely long bow
If it hadn't been for the actions of the former coalition govt and their monetary responsibility during the good times we would not have ridden the GFC anywhere near as well as we did

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

Unfortunately Happy, it doesn't matter who our treasurer was during the GFC, I think the outcome would have been the same. The approach would have been different perhaps by the Libs, but that's where the differences end.

Given the scope of the nations economy and the largely the fact that we rely on natural resources, without that only then would the mettle of either Costello and Swan truly be tested.

The collapsing/collapsed economies in the US and Europe will give an insight as to how real problems are dealt with. No matter who is in power, on the large scale we really don't know how lucky we are…

No doubt we are the lucky country Bogan
But to say that Swan is responsible for our ability to cope far better than many other countries in drawing an extremely long bow
If it hadn't been for the actions of the former coalition govt and their monetary responsibility during the good times we would not have ridden the GFC anywhere near as well as we did

And without trying to look like a pre-emptive smartarse, I make the argument without our resource exports would Costello have had the surplus available for Rudd to spend? He was a responsible treasurer but is a government who has a surplus in the billions truly responisble enough? Are they spending enough on infrastructure and other projects?

As a backnote to the resources pitch also, as the son and grandson of dairy farmers, Australia isn't carried on the sheep's back anymore unfortunately, thanks largely to the current supermarket duopoly. I'm happy to whinge about that elsewhere though.

 

[Yossarian]

Unfortunately Happy, it doesn't matter who our treasurer was during the GFC, I think the outcome would have been the same. The approach would have been different perhaps by the Libs, but that's where the differences end.

Given the scope of the nations economy and the largely the fact that we rely on natural resources, without that only then would the mettle of either Costello and Swan truly be tested.

The collapsing/collapsed economies in the US and Europe will give an insight as to how real problems are dealt with. No matter who is in power, on the large scale we really don't know how lucky we are…

No doubt we are the lucky country Bogan
But to say that Swan is responsible for our ability to cope far better than many other countries in drawing an extremely long bow
If it hadn't been for the actions of the former coalition govt and their monetary responsibility during the good times we would not have ridden the GFC anywhere near as well as we did

Come on Happy. Normally you're on the mark but be fair - you give all credit to the Coalition treasurers but none to Keating who did the hard stuff Howard wouldn't/couldn't do as treasurer or Swan who was treasurer during the worst financial crisis since the depression and avoided a recession? I'm not saying Costello was a bad treasurer but he had the mining boom going and spent most of it on tax cuts to win elections rather than spending on infrastructure.
I know as always I'm on a hiding to nothing in these threads but someone has to argue the other side!! :smiley:

 

[happy_tiger]

Unfortunately Happy, it doesn't matter who our treasurer was during the GFC, I think the outcome would have been the same. The approach would have been different perhaps by the Libs, but that's where the differences end.

Given the scope of the nations economy and the largely the fact that we rely on natural resources, without that only then would the mettle of either Costello and Swan truly be tested.

The collapsing/collapsed economies in the US and Europe will give an insight as to how real problems are dealt with. No matter who is in power, on the large scale we really don't know how lucky we are…

No doubt we are the lucky country Bogan
But to say that Swan is responsible for our ability to cope far better than many other countries in drawing an extremely long bow
If it hadn't been for the actions of the former coalition govt and their monetary responsibility during the good times we would not have ridden the GFC anywhere near as well as we did

And without trying to look like a pre-emptive smartarse, I make the argument without our resource exports would Costello have had the surplus available for Rudd to spend? He was a responsible treasurer but is a government who has a surplus in the billions truly responisble enough? Are they spending enough on infrastructure and other projects?

As a backnote to the resources pitch also, as the son and grandson of dairy farmers, Australia isn't carried on the sheep's back anymore unfortunately, thanks largely to the current supermarket duopoly. I'm happy to whinge about that elsewhere though.

Definitely right that the farmers are treated like garbage My Brother in law is a beef farmer and it is a joke
Everyone says infrastructure but the problems aren't so much infrastructure but who will man the infrastructure once it is put in place
We don't have enough Docs and Nuses for hospitals ,We don't have enough people to run our councils We don't have enough tradesman for the infrastructure
Businesses and companies really have to utilize the 457 workplace far better than we do

 

[happy_tiger]

Unfortunately Happy, it doesn't matter who our treasurer was during the GFC, I think the outcome would have been the same. The approach would have been different perhaps by the Libs, but that's where the differences end.

Given the scope of the nations economy and the largely the fact that we rely on natural resources, without that only then would the mettle of either Costello and Swan truly be tested.

The collapsing/collapsed economies in the US and Europe will give an insight as to how real problems are dealt with. No matter who is in power, on the large scale we really don't know how lucky we are…

No doubt we are the lucky country Bogan
But to say that Swan is responsible for our ability to cope far better than many other countries in drawing an extremely long bow
If it hadn't been for the actions of the former coalition govt and their monetary responsibility during the good times we would not have ridden the GFC anywhere near as well as we did

Come on Happy. Normally you're on the mark but be fair - you give all credit to the Coalition treasurers but none to Keating who did the hard stuff Howard wouldn't/couldn't do as treasurer or Swan who was treasurer during the worst financial crisis since the depression and avoided a recession? I'm not saying Costello was a bad treasurer but he had the mining boom going and spent most of it on tax cuts to win elections rather than spending on infrastructure.
I know as always I'm on a hiding to nothing in these threads but someone has to argue the other side!! :smiley:

Yoss we still have a mining boom which in fact is slowly tearing our country apart due to the two speed economy
Keating was a good treasurer don't get me wrong but Swan could not tie his shoelaces

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

Unfortunately Happy, it doesn't matter who our treasurer was during the GFC, I think the outcome would have been the same. The approach would have been different perhaps by the Libs, but that's where the differences end.

Given the scope of the nations economy and the largely the fact that we rely on natural resources, without that only then would the mettle of either Costello and Swan truly be tested.

The collapsing/collapsed economies in the US and Europe will give an insight as to how real problems are dealt with. No matter who is in power, on the large scale we really don't know how lucky we are…

No doubt we are the lucky country Bogan
But to say that Swan is responsible for our ability to cope far better than many other countries in drawing an extremely long bow
If it hadn't been for the actions of the former coalition govt and their monetary responsibility during the good times we would not have ridden the GFC anywhere near as well as we did

Come on Happy. Normally you're on the mark but be fair - you give all credit to the Coalition treasurers but none to Keating who did the hard stuff Howard wouldn't/couldn't do as treasurer or Swan who was treasurer during the worst financial crisis since the depression and avoided a recession? I'm not saying Costello was a bad treasurer but he had the mining boom going and spent most of it on tax cuts to win elections rather than spending on infrastructure.
I know as always I'm on a hiding to nothing in these threads but someone has to argue the other side!! :smiley:

I try to see myself as a "centrist" Yoss, and I totally agree. The Keating government opened us up to the Asian market also, didn't they?

I also believe that Swan was exposed to a far more volatile global economy than Costello which kind of makes the two comparisons like chalk and cheese.

 

[happy_tiger]

CB and Yoss I'm not picking on Labor
I'm not a big fan of either side of politics at this moment in time
My point is how and why was Swan named Best treasurer in the world
I could name 5 better treasurers (on both sides of politics) in the last 25 years

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

CB and Yoss I'm not picking on Labor
I'm not a big fan of either side of politics at this moment in time
My point is how and why was Swan named Best treasurer in the world
I could name 5 better treasurers (on both sides of politics) in the last 25 years

Happy, not denying that there's been better. Just saying that Swan has probably done the best he can within the means he had, and in saying that, Costello has also played his part in leaving behind that surplus to utilise.

Being only 26 myself, you could probably name 5 better and I'd probably believe you. I'm severely lacking when it comes to politics before the 90's, and even then I'd say my knowledge wouldn't be that you could rely on.

The point of my argument is that I'm glad that he got us through a terrible patch, despite not being a Labor voter. Everyone needs to remember also that our lovely friends at the banks also shielded us from any real threat also.

 

[Flippedy]

CB and Yoss I'm not picking on Labor
I'm not a big fan of either side of politics at this moment in time
My point is how and why was Swan named Best treasurer in the world
I could name 5 better treasurers (on both sides of politics) in the last 25 years

Happy, not denying that there's been better. Just saying that Swan has probably done the best he can within the means he had, and in saying that, Costello has also played his part in leaving behind that surplus to utilise.

Being only 26 myself, you could probably name 5 better and I'd probably believe you. I'm severely lacking when it comes to politics before the 90's, and even then I'd say my knowledge wouldn't be that you could rely on.

The point of my argument is that I'm glad that he got us through a terrible patch, despite not being a Labor voter. Everyone needs to remember also that our lovely friends at the banks also shielded us from any real threat also.

You are smart beyond your years, CB.

 

[tigerdan]

CB and Yoss I'm not picking on Labor
I'm not a big fan of either side of politics at this moment in time
My point is how and why was Swan named Best treasurer in the world
I could name 5 better treasurers (on both sides of politics) in the last 25 years

Happy, your dislike of swan intrigues me. While i am not a fan of the current goverment, he seems to be one of the few to have been gaff free and actually seems quite competent. Considering the current cabinent there is no one a would prefer there than swan. As for why he got the award, its for the strength of australia's economy (which we can contribute to sound regulations the the banking system from both parties and the mining boom)

As for your 5, here a list to here a list of treasurers in the last 25 years to choose from

Peter Costello
Ralph Willis (lost position when ALP lost goverment)
John Dawkins (keating treasure, very unpopular and quite because cabinet rejected his views)
John Kerrin (6 months, between keating going to back bench and successful challenge)
Bob Hawke (for 1 day)
Paul Keating

Considering this, surly swan comes 3rd (a very distant 3rd)

 

[happy_tiger]

CB and Yoss I'm not picking on Labor
I'm not a big fan of either side of politics at this moment in time
My point is how and why was Swan named Best treasurer in the world
I could name 5 better treasurers (on both sides of politics) in the last 25 years

Happy, your dislike of swan intrigues me. While i am not a fan of the current goverment, he seems to be one of the few to have been gaff free and actually seems quite competent. Considering the current cabinent there is no one a would prefer there than swan. As for why he got the award, its for the strength of australia's economy (which we can contribute to sound regulations the the banking system from both parties and the mining boom)

As for your 5, here a list to here a list of treasurers in the last 25 years to choose from

Peter Costello
Ralph Willis (lost position when ALP lost goverment)
John Dawkins (keating treasure, very unpopular and quite because cabinet rejected his views)
John Kerrin (6 months, between keating going to back bench and successful challenge)
Bob Hawke (for 1 day)
Paul Keating

Considering this, surly swan comes 3rd (a very distant 3rd)

Maybe you might like to include the opposition treasurers as well that was what I was alluding too
Don't like Swan Was fortunate enough to be able to give it to him a few years ago when he was on the same flight as my sister when she was returning from Mexico
Seeing he hopped of by himself I asked was he getting off with all the people that were going to vote for him at the next election
It got a lot of laughs

 

[tigerdan]

CB and Yoss I'm not picking on Labor
I'm not a big fan of either side of politics at this moment in time
My point is how and why was Swan named Best treasurer in the world
I could name 5 better treasurers (on both sides of politics) in the last 25 years

Happy, your dislike of swan intrigues me. While i am not a fan of the current goverment, he seems to be one of the few to have been gaff free and actually seems quite competent. Considering the current cabinent there is no one a would prefer there than swan. As for why he got the award, its for the strength of australia's economy (which we can contribute to sound regulations the the banking system from both parties and the mining boom)

As for your 5, here a list to here a list of treasurers in the last 25 years to choose from

Peter Costello
Ralph Willis (lost position when ALP lost goverment)
John Dawkins (keating treasure, very unpopular and quite because cabinet rejected his views)
John Kerrin (6 months, between keating going to back bench and successful challenge)
Bob Hawke (for 1 day)
Paul Keating

Considering this, surly swan comes 3rd (a very distant 3rd)

Maybe you might like to include the opposition treasurers as well that was what I was alluding too
Don't like Swan Was fortunate enough to be able to give it to him a few years ago when he was on the same flight as my sister when she was returning from Mexico
Seeing he hopped of by himself I asked was he getting off with all the people that were going to vote for him at the next election
It got a lot of laughs

Fair enough, that broadens the pool a bit.

As for your call, it just got snother life.

 

[happy_tiger]

CB and Yoss I'm not picking on Labor
I'm not a big fan of either side of politics at this moment in time
My point is how and why was Swan named Best treasurer in the world
I could name 5 better treasurers (on both sides of politics) in the last 25 years

Happy, not denying that there's been better. Just saying that Swan has probably done the best he can within the means he had, and in saying that, Costello has also played his part in leaving behind that surplus to utilise.

Being only 26 myself, you could probably name 5 better and I'd probably believe you. I'm severely lacking when it comes to politics before the 90's, and even then I'd say my knowledge wouldn't be that you could rely on.

The point of my argument is that I'm glad that he got us through a terrible patch, despite not being a Labor voter. Everyone needs to remember also that our lovely friends at the banks also shielded us from any real threat also.

You are smart beyond your years, CB.

Yeah CB is a cluey bugger That is why sometimes it is easier just to agree with him :laughing: But then I would miss the intellectual banter between us (well my rantings and CB 's common sense)
But he does like yoghurt so you have to raise your eyebrows to that :unamused:

 

[underdog]

Im only 29 myself, and much like CB, my knowledge of politics before 1989 is a tad hazy, but iv'e read the odd book or two about it…

I don't mind Swann. He's kinda like the Mitch Brown of Labor politics - Unremarkable, solid, reliable and has glimpses of potential here and there - but the guy hardly makes a mistake.

He's hardly a Costello, however Costello was given a MASSIVE Leg up by the previous Labor Government, both in what they setup (and were subsequently crucified for at the 1996 election), and the minerals boom which followed, where Swann has come on board during a real tough time, and shown great restraint, and level headed-ness.

Costello did however capitalize (as only a liberal government can) on the fortunate situation of the minerals boom, and kept it going, where lesser treasurers would have squandered it.

In short the Australian government IMO has had sound fiscal policy since Keating. Unpopular that this opinion may be, he did get the ball rolling to get us out of recession (at the expense of Labor staying in government) and subsequent Liberal and Labor governments have worked well with what we have had since.

Unfortunately I think Labor will be rolled in the next election irrespective of the leader they have at the time and the idea of Joe "I'm your mate!" Hockey controlling the purse strings scares me.

 

[hammertime]

Im only 29 myself, and much like CB, my knowledge of politics before 1989 is a tad hazy, but iv'e read the odd book or two about it…

I don't mind Swann. He's kinda like the Mitch Brown of Labor politics - Unremarkable, solid, reliable and has glimpses of potential here and there - but the guy hardly makes a mistake.

He's hardly a Costello, however Costello was given a MASSIVE Leg up by the previous Labor Government, both in what they setup (and were subsequently crucified for at the 1996 election), and the minerals boom which followed, where Swann has come on board during a real tough time, and shown great restraint, and level headed-ness.

Costello did however capitalize (as only a liberal government can) on the fortunate situation of the minerals boom, and kept it going, where lesser treasurers would have squandered it.

In short the Australian government IMO has had sound fiscal policy since Keating. Unpopular that this opinion may be, he did get the ball rolling to get us out of recession (at the expense of Labor staying in government) and subsequent Liberal and Labor governments have worked well with what we have had since.

Unfortunately I think Labor will be rolled in the next election irrespective of the leader they have at the time and the idea of Joe "I'm your mate!" Hockey controlling the purse strings scares me.

I think you are being a bit unkind to Mitch Brown mate to compare him to Swan. The thing about Swan was part of the 'gang of 4' that conceptualized all the failed policy over the last few years. e.g. The overpriced halls that do nothing to increase output, the batts that killed people etc. He has made plenty of mistakes. Including $2billion out on overoptimistic projections recently.

Pumping heaps of cash into the economy, with low unemployment, has also triggered wage inflation. Our Mining companies can't get staff because people are laying pipes for the NBN, or still building a halls in schools. Hence our interest rates. There is arguments that could be weighed against how much was spent, was it necessary? was it used productively to reduce future budgetary burdens (i.e. boomers)? I think they spent too much and on the wrong things. School Halls aren't going to help us when the boomers retire, but new Australian made medical equipment and hospitals would have. Or how about a handout that had to be spent on education? learning a new skill? rather than imported TV's from China.

… and it still keeps coming. The latest spending is maternity leave for Parents. It's spending for spending's sake and it puts a further burden on businesses when they don't need it. I sometimes wonder if they want places to continue closing down. Unions, Inflation... not to mention an ETS in a shaky economy.

There is a reason why people are fearful now. Nothing labor has done has been inspiring or even well thought through. All we have is a massive debt. Each and every one of us now has to pay back now and quickly. We have a lot of tough times ahead with the boomers.

Labor have just thrown a lot of cash around because they could. Any monkey, even the worlds best, can do that.