Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

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@Gary Bakerloo said:
@hammertime said:
The liberals are being idiots. The problem is that the average voter doesn't understand the economic flaws of Swans budget, like how he is driving inflation and interest rates,

Budget is projected to move from $50b deficit to $22b. To me that reads as contractionary as do the markets. No?

Sorry GB, don't quite get what you mean?

Any money pumped into the economy by the government, more than it takes out, will increase the money supply, therefore inflation and have pressure on interest rates. You've indicated $72 Billion there, which is also based on some very optimistic revenue estimates.

Wage inflation will be triggered too by trying to construct large infrastructure projects when employees are hard to come by. Suddenly people will be in demand and be able to demand more wages. It will run counter productive to their Mining tax if they force the mining companies expenses up by taking potential employees to dig the trenches for the NBN.

It's populist policy, not economic policy. The liberals aren't any better though.
 
i think obama is getting under donald Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon's skin, lol
http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/7roDwD/www.collegehumor.com/video/6503828/obamas-other-birth-video
 
@Yossarian said:
@alien said:
i have a simple solution. send them back to where they came from. u know it makes sense

If you read about the kind of stuff that goes on in the places these people are from you'd be less likely to say that. Say what you will about where they should go or how they got here, but many of these people have led truly awful lifes where people are killed for being from a different tribe or religion.

yeah but how do you know which ones are really refugees
 
@alien said:
@hammertime said:
But we do need a Carbon Tax

WHY :question: :question: :question:

I just think we need to start controlling Australia's emissions alien. It's a good way to promote better practices and will create new industry.

If the tax initially goes back to the polluters, we shouldn't see much of a price rise, but we should still see polluters encouraged to reduce their carbon tax expenses below their rebate.

The only downside is the trading. You'll see the finance industry take a small slice of the pie.

Its just what is right. I don't care if other countries follow suit, one needs to lead the way.
 
@hammertime said:
@Cultured Bogan said:
Does the fringe benefits tax hit people who have car allowances? I'm a total dunce when it comes to the tax system.

Depends if your employer charges you for your car use CB, and also how you use your car.

Basically the govt are trying to not encourage people to travel long distances. So the FTB tax is now a flat rate, rather than declining by your distance traveled (why people would go on long trips on June 30th..)

It will hurt blokes like tradies, salesmen, builders etc that are driving long distances out of necessity rather than clocking up mileage purely to hit the lower FBT rate by June 30.

So, if you drive it a short distance, you should be fine. If you use it extensively, your employer might have higher charges and then pass that on to you.

Thats just fantastic for the rural people again Lets slug the people who can at least afford to be slugged . Have to be the stupidest govt in the history of Australian federal politics . Seriously the people who did not vot for Rudd should be able to sue the people who did vote for Rudd in 07 . At least then people would think about the decisions they are making when they got to the polls and the importance of those decisions
 
@happy tiger said:
@hammertime said:
@Cultured Bogan said:
Does the fringe benefits tax hit people who have car allowances? I'm a total dunce when it comes to the tax system.

Depends if your employer charges you for your car use CB, and also how you use your car.

Basically the govt are trying to not encourage people to travel long distances. So the FTB tax is now a flat rate, rather than declining by your distance traveled (why people would go on long trips on June 30th..)

It will hurt blokes like tradies, salesmen, builders etc that are driving long distances out of necessity rather than clocking up mileage purely to hit the lower FBT rate by June 30.

So, if you drive it a short distance, you should be fine. If you use it extensively, your employer might have higher charges and then pass that on to you.

Thats just fantastic for the rural people again Lets slug the people who can at least afford to be slugged . Have to be the stupidest govt in the history of Australian federal politics . Seriously the people who did not vot for Rudd should be able to sue the people who did vote for Rudd in 07 . At least then people would think about the decisions they are making when they got to the polls and the importance of those decisions

x2.

I don't know the full details of the policy, but if this happens to increase the transportation costs of our rural exporters at a time when the $AUD is at an all time high, it's utterly gross incompetence.
 
@alien said:
@Yossarian said:
@alien said:
i have a simple solution. send them back to where they came from. u know it makes sense

If you read about the kind of stuff that goes on in the places these people are from you'd be less likely to say that. Say what you will about where they should go or how they got here, but many of these people have led truly awful lifes where people are killed for being from a different tribe or religion.

yeah but how do you know which ones are really refugees

There is a process. They have to apply for refugee status, make claims to support that application, and have these claims studied by DIAC. This belief that's out there that it is pretty easy to get through is simply not true.
 
Swan pulling out some massive spin yet again…

http://www.news.com.au/business/free-set-top-offer-gets-poor-reception/story-e6frfm1i-1226054409292

"But Mr Swan this week defended the plan, saying he would never apologise for supporting pensioners."

Absolute rubbish. All the retailers are saying is that there is some far cheaper and effective ways to do this. They said nothing about apologizing or that is was bad policy! For god sake, you could buy every pensioner a new digital TV for $350 each!!! Open those ears Swan. It's our money you are continually wasting, you douchebag!
 
@hammertime said:
Sorry GB, don't quite get what you mean?

Any money pumped into the economy by the government, more than it takes out, will increase the money supply, therefore inflation and have pressure on interest rates. You've indicated $72 Billion there, which is also based on some very optimistic revenue estimates.

I think you are looking at it differently to me. The relative change in position is contractionary. Moving from $50b deficit to $20b means the government, whilst in absolute terms is expansionary (ie: deficit), is actually contracting its input into the economy (deficit is getting smaller). That is a contractionary stance.
 
@Gary Bakerloo said:
@hammertime said:
Sorry GB, don't quite get what you mean?

Any money pumped into the economy by the government, more than it takes out, will increase the money supply, therefore inflation and have pressure on interest rates. You've indicated $72 Billion there, which is also based on some very optimistic revenue estimates.

I think you are looking at it differently to me. The relative change in position is contractionary. Moving from $50b deficit to $20b means the government, whilst in absolute terms is expansionary (ie: deficit), is actually contracting its input into the economy (deficit is getting smaller). That is a contractionary stance.

I see where you are getting at, but the movement doesn't really come into it. At the end of the day, if the government is printing money and increasing the money supply, they will decrease the value of each $AUD and thereby promote inflation.

Take an extreme example, if the government spent $900 billion 10-11, then $895 billion in 11-12, it's not contractionary policy. They are still pumping vast amounts in and will trigger inflation and in turn, interest rates.
 
@hammertime said:
I see where you are getting at, but the movement doesn't really come into it. At the end of the day, if the government is printing money and increasing the money supply, they will decrease the value of each $AUD and thereby promote inflation.

Take an extreme example, if the government spent $900 billion 10-11, then $895 billion in 11-12, it's not contractionary policy. They are still pumping vast amounts in and will trigger inflation and in turn, interest rates.

The movement is important and reflects the stance. Using your example, yes they spending large amounts, but based in projections, the government will take $28b more out of the economy than what it plans to spend. The net impact of fiscal policy for 11-12 is to withdraw $28b from the economy, hence you go from $50b deficit to $22b deficit.
 
@Gary Bakerloo said:
@hammertime said:
I see where you are getting at, but the movement doesn't really come into it. At the end of the day, if the government is printing money and increasing the money supply, they will decrease the value of each $AUD and thereby promote inflation.

Take an extreme example, if the government spent $900 billion 10-11, then $895 billion in 11-12, it's not contractionary policy. They are still pumping vast amounts in and will trigger inflation and in turn, interest rates.

The movement is important and reflects the stance. Using your example, yes they spending large amounts, but based in projections, the government will take $28b more out of the economy than what it plans to spend. The net impact of fiscal policy for 11-12 is to withdraw $28b from the economy, hence you go from $50b deficit to $22b deficit.

And that is obviously dependant on how much the dollar is worth on the international stage also . The more it is worth the less a debt is with another country . IE buying something on internet in US 2 years ago it would of been 40% higher in $AUD
 
@happy tiger said:
And that is obviously dependant on how much the dollar is worth on the international stage also . The more it is worth the less a debt is with another country . IE buying something on internet in US 2 years ago it would of been 40% higher in $AUD

Not sure about that. There are multitude of reasons to explain currency movements. The government fiscal position has very little impact. Monetary policy is the policy tool that affects currencies the most.
 
@hammertime said:
I just think we need to start controlling Australia's emissions alien. It's a good way to promote better practices and will create new industry.

If the tax initially goes back to the polluters, we shouldn't see much of a price rise, but we should still see polluters encouraged to reduce their carbon tax expenses below their rebate.

The only downside is the trading. You'll see the finance industry take a small slice of the pie.

Its just what is right. I don't care if other countries follow suit, one needs to lead the way.

less polution would be good but i didnt like the ets because we were going to give billions of $$$ to other countries
 
@Gary Bakerloo said:
@happy tiger said:
And that is obviously dependant on how much the dollar is worth on the international stage also . The more it is worth the less a debt is with another country . IE buying something on internet in US 2 years ago it would of been 40% higher in $AUD

Not sure about that. There are multitude of reasons to explain currency movements. The government fiscal position has very little impact. Monetary policy is the policy tool that affects currencies the most.

Gary If we had a debt to US govt for say FA16's for example the debt now in real terms due to the strength of our dollar is actually less .
 
<big>AP sources: Raiders knew mission a one-shot deal</big>
By KIMBERLY DOZIER, AP Intelligence Writer – Tue May 17, 7:06 am ET

![](http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20110517/capt.b0e6552097b74494885a66b265aea395-b0e6552097b74494885a66b265aea395-0.jpg?x=213&y=114&xc=1&yc=1&wc=407&hc=218&q=85&sig=hoGfmgoS3v3qAorWcvMxtg–)

AP – FILE - This May 3, 2011, file photo, shows a view of Osama bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan. …

WASHINGTON – Those who planned the secret mission to get Osama bin Laden in Pakistan knew it was a one-shot deal, and it nearly went terribly wrong.

The U.S. deliberately hid the operation from Pakistan, and predicted that national outrage over the breach of Pakistani sovereignty would make it impossible to try again if the raid on bin Laden's suspected redoubt came up dry.

Once the raiders reached their target, things started to go awry almost immediately, officials briefed on the operation said.

Adding exclusive new details to the account of the assault on bin Laden's hideout, officials described just how the SEAL raiders loudly ditched a foundering helicopter right outside bin Laden's door, ruining the plan for a surprise assault. That forced them to abandon plans to run a squeeze play on bin Laden — simultaneously entering the house stealthily from the roof and the ground floor.

Instead, they busted into the ground floor and began a floor-by-floor storming of the house, working up to the top level where they had assumed bin Laden — if he was in the house — would be.

They were right.

The raiders came face-to-face with bin Laden in a hallway outside his bedroom, and three of the Americans stormed in after him, U.S. officials briefed on the operation told The Associated Press. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity to describe a classified operation.

U.S. officials believe Pakistani intelligence continues to support militants who attack U.S. troops in Afghanistan, and actively undermine U.S. intelligence operations to go after al-Qaida inside Pakistan. The level of distrust is such that keeping Pakistan in the dark was a major factor in planning the raid, and led to using the high-tech but sometimes unpredictable helicopter technology that nearly unhinged the mission.

Pakistan's government has since condemned the action, and threatened to open fire if U.S. forces enter again.

On Monday, the two partners attempted to patch up relations, agreeing to pursue high-value targets jointly.

The decision to launch on that particular moonless night in May came largely because too many American officials had been briefed on the plan. U.S. officials feared if it leaked to the press, bin Laden would disappear for another decade.

U.S. special operations forces have made approximately four forays into Pakistani territory since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, though this one, some 90 miles inside Pakistan, was unlike any other, the officials say.

The job was given to a SEAL Team 6 unit, just back from Afghanistan, one official said. This elite branch of SEALs had been hunting bin Laden in eastern Afghanistan since 2001.

Five aircraft flew from Jalalabad, Afghanistan, with three school-bus-size Chinook helicopters landing in a deserted area roughly two-thirds of the way to bin Laden's compound in the Pakistani city of Abbottabad, two of the officials explained.

Aboard two Black Hawk helicopters were 23 SEALs, an interpreter and a tracking dog named Cairo. Nineteen SEALs would enter the compound, and three of them would find bin Laden, one official said, providing the exact numbers for the first time.

Aboard the Chinooks were two dozen more SEALs, as backup.

The Black Hawks were specially engineered to muffle the tail rotor and engine sound, two officials said. The added weight of the stealth technology meant cargo was calculated to the ounce, with weather factored in. The night of the mission, it was hotter than expected.

The Black Hawks were to drop the SEALs and depart in less than two minutes, in hopes locals would assume they were Pakistani aircraft visiting the nearby military academy.

One Black Hawk was to hover above the compound, with SEALs sliding down ropes into the open courtyard.

The second was to hover above the roof to drop SEALs there, then land more SEALs outside — plus an interpreter and the dog, who would track anyone who tried to escape and to alert SEALs to any approaching Pakistani security forces.

If troops appeared, the plan was to hunker down in the compound, avoiding armed confrontation with the Pakistanis while officials in Washington negotiated their passage out.

The two SEAL teams inside would work toward each other, in a simultaneous attack from above and below, their weapons silenced, guaranteeing surprise, one of the officials said. They would have stormed the building in a matter of minutes, as they'd done time and again in two training models of the compound.

The plan unraveled as the first helicopter tried to hover over the compound. The Black Hawk skittered around uncontrollably in the heat-thinned air, forcing the pilot to land. As he did, the tail and rotor got caught on one of the compound's 12-foot walls. The pilot quickly buried the aircraft's nose in the dirt to keep it from tipping over, and the SEALs clambered out into an outer courtyard.

The other aircraft did not even attempt hovering, landing its SEALs outside the compound.

Now, the raiders were outside, and they'd lost the element of surprise.

They had trained for this, and started blowing their way in with explosives, through walls and doors, working their way up the three-level house from the bottom.

They had to blow their way through barriers at each stair landing, firing back, as one of the men in the house fired at them.

They shot three men as well as one woman, whom U.S. officials have said lunged at the SEALs.

Small knots of children were on every level, including the balcony of bin Laden's room.

As three of the SEALs reached the top of the steps on the third floor, they saw bin Laden standing at the end of the hall. The Americans recognized him instantly, the officials said.

Bin Laden also saw them, dimly outlined in the dark house, and ducked into his room.

The three SEALs assumed he was going for a weapon, and one by one they rushed after him through the door, one official described.

Two women were in front of bin Laden, yelling and trying to protect him, two officials said. The first SEAL grabbed the two women and shoved them away, fearing they might be wearing suicide bomb vests, they said.

The SEAL behind him opened fire at bin Laden, putting one bullet in his chest, and one in his head.

It was over in a matter of seconds.

Back at the White House Situation Room, word was relayed that bin Laden had been found, signaled by the code word "Geronimo." That was not bin Laden's code name, but rather a representation of the letter "G." Each step of the mission was labeled alphabetically, and "Geronimo" meant that the raiders had reached step "G," the killing or capture of bin Laden, two officials said.

As the SEALs began photographing the body for identification, the raiders found an AK-47 rifle and a Russian-made Makarov pistol on a shelf by the door they'd just run through. Bin Laden hadn't touched them.

They were among a handful of weapons that were removed to be inventoried.

It took approximately 15 minutes to reach bin Laden, one official said. The next 23 or so were spent blowing up the broken chopper, after rounding up nine women and 18 children to get them out of range of the blast.

One of the waiting Chinooks flew in to pick up bin Laden's body, the raiders from the broken aircraft and the weapons, documents and other materials seized at the site.

The helicopters flew back to Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan, and the body was flown to a waiting U.S. Navy ship for bin Laden's burial at sea, ensuring no shrine would spring up around his grave.

When the SEAL team met President Barack Obama, he did not ask who shot bin Laden. He simply thanked each member of the team, two officials said.

In a few weeks, the team that killed bin Laden will go back to training, and in a couple months, back to work overseas.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110517/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden_raid
 
That's quite an interesting read. I think anyone who questions why OBL was shot instead of arrested needs to carefully think about the circumstances the SEALs were in. Everything and everyone is a potential bomb that's going to kill them.
 
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