Qantas War

@softlaw said:
joyce is purely out for the shareholders (of which he is obviously a large one). Not Australian travellers, not Australian companies who provide services to QANTAS and certainly not Australian employees. His intention is to either:
1 - turn QANTAS into an overseas based airline using cheap overseas staff, facilities and suppliers (the goal he's been talking about quite publicly for a while)
and/or
2 - ensure that the wages/ costs he has to pay for Australian workers, facilities and suppliers are as cheap as possible, preferably as cheap as those he could get in a sweat shop economy overseas.

& he is obviously prepared to play brinksmanship games until he gets his way. Now is the perfect time for him to try it on because Aus. politics is so toxic towards anything even loosely affiliated with unions, labor or social support.

I hope QANTAS change their name when they move overseas. They certainly won;t be the Queensland and Northern Territory Aerial Service anymore. The only link they'll have to those 2 places will be flying over them and doing what seagulls do.

I dont understand the point your trying to make Softlaw.

OF COURSE he has the shareholders interests at heart - thats his job. The problem with a lot of entry level employees or unskilled labourers ala the baggage handlers is that they think the company owes them a favour. Guess what? it doesnt. Qantas is not in the business of making its employees rich…that is not their problem.

If you want a better life for you and yours, GO AND GET ONE!!!!!!! Go back to study, get some qualifications, move up in the world. Dont hold a company to ransom because you are either too dumb or too lazy to make things happen. Stand on your own two feet and control your own destiny. Anyone who lives by the motto 'united we stand' is a moron who deserves everything that comes their way.

Whilst Joyces decision effects me and is a pain in the arse I support his stand.
 
@Citizen Tiger said:
Leaving aside the predictable political rhetoric, the act of grounding the fleet with absolutely no notice will not only cost Qantas immediate market share, but threaten their very survival. The key stakeholders in this imbroglio are not the employees, nor the shareholders, they're the customers. The people that make a commitment with their hard earned cash have been treated with indifference and contempt. They're the casualties of what is clearly a dysfunctional board.

Do yourself of a favor and examine the CV's of the board members. They're mostly engineers or those with a scientific background. Unbelievable that would have a board of that make up in a customer driven industry.

I feel sorry for not just their paying customers, but for the frontline staff that would have delivered the news of the grounding to thousands who were expecting their flights to leave. Gutless management, you could have had the bottle to come to the terminals yourself, but you left the staff take the heat.

spot on ct …. unions have to give 72hr notice of intention to strike yet ' management ' can pull this action at will without consequence. imagine if the unions did the action of a no notice strike. i could not imagine the bleating from qantas mgmt, news ltd press and that machiovellian mysogeonous middle-aged master of malicious misleading mis-information mr jones. but no doubt the media bias will once again paint those evil unions and their members as the villians with no criticism whatsoever of the ceo of qantas. wonderful place oz !!
 
@Blackpearl said:
@Citizen Tiger said:
Leaving aside the predictable political rhetoric, the act of grounding the fleet with absolutely no notice will not only cost Qantas immediate market share, but threaten their very survival. The key stakeholders in this imbroglio are not the employees, nor the shareholders, they're the customers. The people that make a commitment with their hard earned cash have been treated with indifference and contempt. They're the casualties of what is clearly a dysfunctional board.

Do yourself of a favor and examine the CV's of the board members. They're mostly engineers or those with a scientific background. Unbelievable that would have a board of that make up in a customer driven industry.

I feel sorry for not just their paying customers, but for the frontline staff that would have delivered the news of the grounding to thousands who were expecting their flights to leave. Gutless management, you could have had the bottle to come to the terminals yourself, but you left the staff take the heat.

spot on ct …. unions have to give 72hr notice of intention to strike yet ' management ' can pull this action at will without consequence. imagine if the unions did the action of a no notice strike. i could not imagine the bleating from qantas mgmt, news ltd press and that machiovellian mysogeonous middle-aged master of malicious misleading mis-information mr jones. but no doubt the media bias will once again paint those evil unions and their members as the villians with no criticism whatsoever of the ceo of qantas. wonderful place oz !!

What a load of crap. These mongrels have been striking and carrying on for months now. Joyces actions will imediately bring an end to this non sense.
 
@Tiger Watto said:
@king sirro said:
Qantas workers cherish their jobs. Their a certain romance about working at the irport thats worth more than money,…..theres no way they are risking all this if it isnt whats right. But lets give Joyce a huge pay. :crazy

KS, Joyce's pay increase has nothing to do with the ongoing dispute… Executive pays are derived from the airlines performance/profits and have nothing to do with day to day operations.

I find it halarious that people are whinging about the board grounding the airline over the past 24hrs, but the Unions and Employees have been grounding the airline for 4 months and thats ok?! :crazy

He has played the right card, pulled Gillards pants down and will now ultimately win this battle!!!

Totally agree Watto and you know what really pisses me off about the Unions is not so much that they are striking but when they do it

School Holidays ,football grand final weekends

They say that the employees say they love working for Qantas

Well I wouldn't do that to the place of employment that I love and I wouldn't be letting the Unions tell me when I would strike either

Just remember the Unions don't exist either if they don't have happy members
 
Stryker - my point is that a lot of posts here seem to be implying that joyce is fighting some righteous crusade against the evil unions for the good of the nation, when all he is actually trying to do is make heaps of cash.
 
@softlaw said:
Stryker - my point is that a lot of posts here seem to be implying that joyce is fighting some righteous crusade against the evil unions for the good of the nation, when all he is actually trying to do is make heaps of cash.

Which is his job Softlaw His job is to make Qantas as profitable as it can be
If he doesn't do that he will get the boot
Why not blame the shareholders as well ??

Every decision a boss makes is going to make 50% happy and 50% unhappy Whether it be rosters ,job structure , retraining, reutilising your employees strengths and weaknesses etc etc etc
 
@softlaw said:
Stryker - my point is that a lot of posts here seem to be implying that joyce is fighting some righteous crusade against the evil unions for the good of the nation, when all he is actually trying to do is make heaps of cash.

Understand.

I dont think he is fighting some righteous crusade for the good of the nation, moreso he is fighting a war to keep Qantas a viable business. The company only holds an 18% share of the market for international flights leaving Australia. If he caves in to these demands it will result in either higher prices for flights, the cutting of services and staff….or both. All this will further diminish the organisations market share. He has an extremely unenviable job. The unions are talking tough as they always do so he has taken a radical gamble to force the governments hand and end the industrial action. The damage may well already be done though which will result with everyone losing.

....except the unions. They'll just move on to the next project and swing their fat guts around demanding the world without a care as to the long term effects of their actions. They are as fake as it comes. ....
 
I've got pros and cons of how both sides have handled the situation.

- The Unions demands are a little bit over the top. Yes, job security is a major part of their concern and I totally agree that as employees, you have the right to be provided with terms of security. What I don't agree with is some of the other demands like pilots who fly domestic legs should be paid the same amount as international pilots. Every industry pays according to experience and role. Same as why the person who puts the peanuts in the packets is on much less than what Joyce is on.
- Alan Joyce's handling of the whole situation has been pathetic. I watched his press conference two weeks ago when he announced they were grounding four aircraft, and the way Joyce spoke about the unions in such a negative way was doing no one any favours. It doesn't matter if you disagree with their demands or their reactions like strike action, one of the worst things you can do is to publicly criticise in such obvious ways. I recall him saying something along the lines of "the unions are acting very immaturely". Don't quote me on that as I'm not sure if it is 100% to the word, but anything along the lines of that is not helping anyone and will do more harm than good.
- I seriously wonder how the Board came to this drastic decision. Not only will the cost of ceasing operations be extreme, you can say a big seeyalater to intangible assets like goodwill and brand name. This is the same way Ansett and PanAm went down.
 
Some unionists are fools who want nothing more than to kill the goose that lays the golden egg
Qantas want to cut costs by cutting jobs and for the conspiracy minded - Joyce reduces share price so BA or Singapore Airways can buy up cheap.

All the while the Real Estate/Finance/Insurance axis gets completely ignored - if you want to improve worker conditions then target unearned income sources that extract the economic surplus through rentier charges and tolls
 
Nice to see the union bashers out in force as usual! Yep militants like the Australian & International Pilots Association -gotta keep a lid on those Bolshies!

As for the TWA members it's important to realise they represent members. These decisions aren't imposed by Tony Sheldon or someone at the union HQ, they are voted on by the members on the ground. If you don't like what they're demanding, and fair enough if you don't, blame the staff not the unions.

My personal take on this is the "unions" are making a lot of demands that can't really be met but Qantas hardly come out of this smelling like roses. Joyce is writing the manual on how not to negotiate an agreement. I've seen little to no effort from him to negotiate - all we get is ads in the paper trying to shore up his PR. Well Alan stop talking to the press and try talking to the workers. The bloke rabbits on about how much of a financial hole Qantas are in and then gives himself a massive pay increase. For what? Losing market share? Where's his productivity?
 
@alex said:
I've got pros and cons of how both sides have handled the situation.

- The Unions demands are a little bit over the top. Yes, job security is a major part of their concern and I totally agree that as employees, you have the right to be provided with terms of security. What I don't agree with is some of the other demands like pilots who fly domestic legs should be paid the same amount as international pilots. Every industry pays according to experience and role. Same as why the person who puts the peanuts in the packets is on much less than what Joyce is on.
- Alan Joyce's handling of the whole situation has been pathetic. I watched his press conference two weeks ago when he announced they were grounding four aircraft, and the way Joyce spoke about the unions in such a negative way was doing no one any favours. It doesn't matter if you disagree with their demands or their reactions like strike action, one of the worst things you can do is to publicly criticise in such obvious ways. I recall him saying something along the lines of "the unions are acting very immaturely". Don't quote me on that as I'm not sure if it is 100% to the word, but anything along the lines of that is not helping anyone and will do more harm than good.
- I seriously wonder how the Board came to this drastic decision. Not only will the cost of ceasing operations be extreme, you can say a big seeyalater to intangible assets like goodwill and brand name. This is the same way Ansett and PanAm went down.

Why people are comparing Ansett and Qantas ??
Ansett were badly let down by the government of the time and CASA
 
@Yossarian said:
My personal take on this is the "unions" are making a lot of demands that can't really be met but Qantas hardly come out of this smelling like roses. Joyce is writing the manual on how not to negotiate an agreement.

Too true
 
THE FUNNY THING PEOPLE FORGET that it was only a few years ago that Dixon and Jackson nearly sold Qantas out to a equity company. If this had gone through QANTAS WOULD HAVE FOLDED within months. It was only the efforts of people like the aircrew and ground staff that stirred up media interest that put pressure on major share holders to reject the motion. The board members and CEO were to receive millions if this deal went through. A lot of the same people are still having their say in the way the airline is ran.

Iam not a member of any union, but I know if their was not a union presence at Qantas the staff would be in big trouble. I think as a society we have to start thinking that without jobs than people don't spend money and pay tax and the whole system comes to a screaming halt
 
Well the FWA cancelled all industrial action, they could be back in the air this afternoon

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-31/qantas-action-terminated-fair-work-rules/3609158/?site=newcastle

Qantas to fly after ruling ends dispute

Updated October 31, 2011 06:10:23
Industrial action terminated… Qantas domestic planes at Sydney airport

Industrial action terminated... Qantas domestic planes at Sydney airport

Qantas says its planes could be back in the air by early this afternoon after the workplace umpire put a stop to all industrial action by the airline and unions early this morning.

Fair Work Australia granted the Federal Government's application to halt the industrial action behind the shutdown after a marathon 15-hour hearing in Melbourne.

The ruling means that all parties have 21 days to negotiate a settlement to the dispute.

All Qantas planes were grounded on Saturday, leaving nearly 70,000 passengers stranded in 22 countries, and the airline had been threatening to lock out all employees from tonight.

In handing down the decision after two hours of deliberation, the tribunal said the temporary suspension sought by the three unions would not have provided enough certainty for the industry.

Qantas says the decision has provided certainty for its passengers.

In a statement, the company's CEO Alan Joyce apologised to all customers affected by the dispute.

He said some flights could be back up and running this afternoon if the safety regulator gives the go ahead.

The deadlock has already affected more than 68,000 passengers worldwide and there were fears a failure to get planes back in the air quickly would damage the national economy.

The Federal Government had applied to the industrial umpire for the termination or suspension of industrial disputes between Qantas and three unions - Australian Licensed Engineers Union (ALAEA), the Transport Workers Union (TWU) and the Australian and International Pilots Union (AIPA).

After almost 14 hours of evidence over two days, the tribunal, headed by Justice Geoffrey Giudice, found there was significant uncertainty arising from the protected action of the unions but in particular from the Qantas employee lockout and grounding of the fleet.

"We should do what we can to avoid significant damage to the tourism industry," Justice Giudice said.

He said the unions had sought a suspension of the protected industrial action for up to 120 days but the panel had decided that such a move would not provide sufficient protection against the risk of economic damage to the tourism and aviation industries.

Qantas and the three unions involved in the dispute will now have 21 days to resolve their impasse with the umpire's mediation. The safety regulator will need to give the go-ahead before Qantas can resume flights.
'Common sense restored'

In a press conference after the decision was handed down, Assistant Treasurer Bill Shorten said the Government was pleased with the decision.

"We are pleased after 24 hours of turmoil, common sense was restored," he told reporters.

"We believe now that Qantas and the unions will focus on getting flying as soon as they can."

Unions had wanted an 120-day suspension of all action, whereas Qantas argued for a lasting termination.

ACTU secretary Jeff Lawrence also responded to the ruling, calling for the Federal Government to ensure Qantas fulfils its obligations.

"We'll be working to make sure that those planes are in the air as soon as possible and that Qantas remains a good and viable airline that provides good jobs for Australian workers," he said.

"Fair Work Australia has recognised that it's the actions of Qantas that has the potential to cause harm to the Australian economy."

Qantas said it was losing $15 million per week due to months of strikes and other industrial action by unions.

Qantas says 447 flights have been cancelled, with furious passengers in major cities around the world vowing never to fly with Qantas again.

Mr Joyce, who ordered the lockout, made it clear he would not put his planes back in the air unless he had the "certainty" of a termination, not a suspension, of all industrial action.
\
\
\
\
//"Fair Work Australia has recognised that it's the actions of Qantas that has the potential to cause harm to the Australian economy."//

yeah no joke, stupid decision by Qantas

//Mr Joyce, who ordered the lockout, made it clear he would not put his planes back in the air unless he had the "certainty" of a termination, not a suspension, of all industrial action.//

"bawww I need to keep my pay rise and for that to happen, people need to lose jobs"
 
Yes this whole issue is certainly split down the middle
The 9 msn site is running a poll asking do you think Qantas made the right call
It has had 116000 hits It is 58000 apiece with a 200 vote difference
 
@alex said:
Can't wait to see what happens to the share price when the ASX opens this morning!

It will take a hit, but it will also skyrocket in 24 months once Joyce sets up the Off-Shore/Asian operations to make the International business profitable…

Are you a Shareholder?
 
@happy tiger said:
Yes this whole issue is certainly split down the middle
The 9 msn site is running a poll asking do you think Qantas made the right call
It has had 116000 hits It is 58000 apiece with a 200 vote difference

lol… gota love Nine's online polls. They have had a smear campaign for 3 years on Qantas. I laughed so hard this morning when I heard Lisa Wilkins spin as a headline "Qantas Ordered Back In The Air"... That should be enough to get the 'emotional' voters on thier poll.

The real pollswill be held at the next Shareholders Meeting, followed by a landslide win to the Liberal Party in the next Federal Election!!!
 
@happy tiger said:
@alex said:
I've got pros and cons of how both sides have handled the situation.

- The Unions demands are a little bit over the top. Yes, job security is a major part of their concern and I totally agree that as employees, you have the right to be provided with terms of security. What I don't agree with is some of the other demands like pilots who fly domestic legs should be paid the same amount as international pilots. Every industry pays according to experience and role. Same as why the person who puts the peanuts in the packets is on much less than what Joyce is on.
- Alan Joyce's handling of the whole situation has been pathetic. I watched his press conference two weeks ago when he announced they were grounding four aircraft, and the way Joyce spoke about the unions in such a negative way was doing no one any favours. It doesn't matter if you disagree with their demands or their reactions like strike action, one of the worst things you can do is to publicly criticise in such obvious ways. I recall him saying something along the lines of "the unions are acting very immaturely". Don't quote me on that as I'm not sure if it is 100% to the word, but anything along the lines of that is not helping anyone and will do more harm than good.
- I seriously wonder how the Board came to this drastic decision. Not only will the cost of ceasing operations be extreme, you can say a big seeyalater to intangible assets like goodwill and brand name. This is the same way Ansett and PanAm went down.

Why people are comparing Ansett and Qantas ??
Ansett were badly let down by the government of the time and CASA

Ansett were let down by Air New Zealand who were too busy avoiding getting wound up themselves to worry about looking after Ansett.
 
Back
Top