Qantas War

[Yossarian]

Yes this whole issue is certainly split down the middle
The 9 msn site is running a poll asking do you think Qantas made the right call
It has had 116000 hits It is 58000 apiece with a 200 vote difference

lol… gota love Nine's online polls. They have had a smear campaign for 3 years on Qantas. I laughed so hard this morning when I heard Lisa Wilkins spin as a headline "Qantas Ordered Back In The Air"... That should be enough to get the 'emotional' voters on thier poll.

The real pollswill be held at the next Shareholders Meeting, followed by a landslide win to the Liberal Party in the next Federal Election!!!

Her spin? There's plenty of spin flying around here Watto. In my opinion Joyce has taken a frustrating yet hardly devestating series of union/professional body industrual action and turned it into a massive black eye for the airline and its reputation. You think he handled it well? If I was a shareholder I'd be pretty annoyed that not only has he overseen Qantas' market share plummet, now he's managed to drop their share price and profit. The guy is a goose - yes some of the demands made on Qantas are neither feasible or realistic but they had some very serious matters to raise.

1 - Is it really worth sending maintenance offshore to boost your profits? Do we really want Qantas to go down the Tiger way of doing business?
2 - Is it really fair that a company sets up a wholly-owned subsidiary to pay their staff less?

I'm not commenting one way or another but they are reasonable questions.

 

[happy_tiger]

I've got pros and cons of how both sides have handled the situation.

- The Unions demands are a little bit over the top. Yes, job security is a major part of their concern and I totally agree that as employees, you have the right to be provided with terms of security. What I don't agree with is some of the other demands like pilots who fly domestic legs should be paid the same amount as international pilots. Every industry pays according to experience and role. Same as why the person who puts the peanuts in the packets is on much less than what Joyce is on.
- Alan Joyce's handling of the whole situation has been pathetic. I watched his press conference two weeks ago when he announced they were grounding four aircraft, and the way Joyce spoke about the unions in such a negative way was doing no one any favours. It doesn't matter if you disagree with their demands or their reactions like strike action, one of the worst things you can do is to publicly criticise in such obvious ways. I recall him saying something along the lines of "the unions are acting very immaturely". Don't quote me on that as I'm not sure if it is 100% to the word, but anything along the lines of that is not helping anyone and will do more harm than good.
- I seriously wonder how the Board came to this drastic decision. Not only will the cost of ceasing operations be extreme, you can say a big seeyalater to intangible assets like goodwill and brand name. This is the same way Ansett and PanAm went down.

Why people are comparing Ansett and Qantas ??
Ansett were badly let down by the government of the time and CASA

Ansett were let down by Air New Zealand who were too busy avoiding getting wound up themselves to worry about looking after Ansett.

Yoss you don't think that The Govt of the day could have helped keep Ansett afloat
It was very convenient when CASA decided to ground Ansett on the two occasions
Everyone knew that Qantas was the golden child of the Govt and they were openly targeting Ansett

 

[hammertime]

Yes this whole issue is certainly split down the middle
The 9 msn site is running a poll asking do you think Qantas made the right call
It has had 116000 hits It is 58000 apiece with a 200 vote difference

lol… gota love Nine's online polls. They have had a smear campaign for 3 years on Qantas. I laughed so hard this morning when I heard Lisa Wilkins spin as a headline "Qantas Ordered Back In The Air"... That should be enough to get the 'emotional' voters on thier poll.

The real pollswill be held at the next Shareholders Meeting, followed by a landslide win to the Liberal Party in the next Federal Election!!!

Her spin? There's plenty of spin flying around here Watto. In my opinion Joyce has taken a frustrating yet hardly devestating series of union/professional body industrual action and turned it into a massive black eye for the airline and its reputation. You think he handled it well? If I was a shareholder I'd be pretty annoyed that not only has he overseen Qantas' market share plummet, now he's managed to drop their share price and profit. The guy is a goose - yes some of the demands made on Qantas are neither feasible or realistic but they had some very serious matters to raise.

1 - Is it really worth sending maintenance offshore to boost your profits? Do we really want Qantas to go down the Tiger way of doing business?
2 - Is it really fair that a company sets up a wholly-owned subsidiary to pay their staff less?

I'm not commenting one way or another but they are reasonable questions.

Yoss, I think a worthy question is.

3 - Are our IR laws appropriate for this day in age? Would the GDP have taken so much hit over the last few days if we had laws that were able to resolve disputes better? Should unions exist in this day and age or are they a tool for years gone by when economies weren't as globalized?

Joyce allowed the industrial action to continue for a long period of time. What was he supposed to do when he couldn't find an impasse with unions? There wasn't too many options open to him when unions also control the government!

The thing about Joyce is he has support of the Board and Shareholders. He can't be too much of a goose.

 

[Yossarian]

Yes this whole issue is certainly split down the middle
The 9 msn site is running a poll asking do you think Qantas made the right call
It has had 116000 hits It is 58000 apiece with a 200 vote difference

lol… gota love Nine's online polls. They have had a smear campaign for 3 years on Qantas. I laughed so hard this morning when I heard Lisa Wilkins spin as a headline "Qantas Ordered Back In The Air"... That should be enough to get the 'emotional' voters on thier poll.

The real pollswill be held at the next Shareholders Meeting, followed by a landslide win to the Liberal Party in the next Federal Election!!!

Her spin? There's plenty of spin flying around here Watto. In my opinion Joyce has taken a frustrating yet hardly devestating series of union/professional body industrual action and turned it into a massive black eye for the airline and its reputation. You think he handled it well? If I was a shareholder I'd be pretty annoyed that not only has he overseen Qantas' market share plummet, now he's managed to drop their share price and profit. The guy is a goose - yes some of the demands made on Qantas are neither feasible or realistic but they had some very serious matters to raise.

1 - Is it really worth sending maintenance offshore to boost your profits? Do we really want Qantas to go down the Tiger way of doing business?
2 - Is it really fair that a company sets up a wholly-owned subsidiary to pay their staff less?

I'm not commenting one way or another but they are reasonable questions.

Yoss, I think a worthy question is.

3 - Are our IR laws appropriate for this day in age? Would the GDP have taken so much hit over the last few days if we had laws that were able to resolve disputes better? Should unions exist in this day and age or are they a tool for years gone by when economies weren't as globalized?

Joyce allowed the industrial action to continue for a long period of time. What was he supposed to do when he couldn't find an impasse with unions? There wasn't too many options open to him when unions also control the government!

The thing about Joyce is he has support of the Board and Shareholders. He can't be too much of a goose.

Should unions exist? Of course they should. Having the right to organise is a basic fundamental right. Management has the power that comes from being part of a larger group, so why not workers.
Are the IR laws appropriate? A worthy debate but really I don't think they are that far off the pace. The problem here was more to do with the beheviour of the parties.
Joyce allowed the industrial campaign to go on because he made no genuine attempt to engage his staff and try to negotiate. He made a press announcement about the future direction of the company that had obvious impacts on the staff and then basically ignored there concerns.
Board and shareholder support doesn't stop you being a goose. His handling of the whole situation has been a disaster. But hey, that's just my opinion…

 

[Yossarian]

I've got pros and cons of how both sides have handled the situation.

- The Unions demands are a little bit over the top. Yes, job security is a major part of their concern and I totally agree that as employees, you have the right to be provided with terms of security. What I don't agree with is some of the other demands like pilots who fly domestic legs should be paid the same amount as international pilots. Every industry pays according to experience and role. Same as why the person who puts the peanuts in the packets is on much less than what Joyce is on.
- Alan Joyce's handling of the whole situation has been pathetic. I watched his press conference two weeks ago when he announced they were grounding four aircraft, and the way Joyce spoke about the unions in such a negative way was doing no one any favours. It doesn't matter if you disagree with their demands or their reactions like strike action, one of the worst things you can do is to publicly criticise in such obvious ways. I recall him saying something along the lines of "the unions are acting very immaturely". Don't quote me on that as I'm not sure if it is 100% to the word, but anything along the lines of that is not helping anyone and will do more harm than good.
- I seriously wonder how the Board came to this drastic decision. Not only will the cost of ceasing operations be extreme, you can say a big seeyalater to intangible assets like goodwill and brand name. This is the same way Ansett and PanAm went down.

Why people are comparing Ansett and Qantas ??
Ansett were badly let down by the government of the time and CASA

Ansett were let down by Air New Zealand who were too busy avoiding getting wound up themselves to worry about looking after Ansett.

Yoss you don't think that The Govt of the day could have helped keep Ansett afloat
It was very convenient when CASA decided to ground Ansett on the two occasions
Everyone knew that Qantas was the golden child of the Govt and they were openly targeting Ansett

Well this is one of the arguments why the government shouldn't own an airline. But really what can a government do to prop up an airline in that situation? It's not really the government's place to provide financial support to a business that was broke because it was poorly run and that has no major impact on the national economy.

 

[happy_tiger]

So Yoss it was just "fate " that CASA decided to pull the shutters down on Ansett over the two busiest times of the year leading up to their demise . I think not .

 

[Yossarian]

So Yoss it was just "fate " that CASA decided to pull the shutters down on Ansett over the two busiest times of the year leading up to their demise . I think not .

Don't about fate. Coincidental maybe, unfortunate yes. I'm not convinced there was a deliberate strategy but I'll be honest and say it's something I haven't looked into too much. CASA seem like a law to themselves so I'd doubt the government were instructing them (if they were I find it hard to believe someone wouldn't have leaked that by now).

CASA may have played some role in Ansett going under but the far greater damage was done by Air NZ's amazingly inept management.

 

[stryker]

So Industrial action has been terminated, planes will be back in the air this afternoon, both parties are obliged to work out the eba's over the next 6 weeks or the IR umpire will do it for them, the government has proven themselves to be useless and the share market price has jumped 4.5%.

Not a bad result for Joyce. One of the ballsiest management decisions in recent memory.

 

[AndTheKungFoSing]

Leaving aside the predictable political rhetoric, the act of grounding the fleet with absolutely no notice will not only cost Qantas immediate market share, but threaten their very survival. The key stakeholders in this imbroglio are not the employees, nor the shareholders, they're the customers. The people that make a commitment with their hard earned cash have been treated with indifference and contempt. They're the casualties of what is clearly a dysfunctional board.

Do yourself of a favor and examine the CV's of the board members. They're mostly engineers or those with a scientific background. Unbelievable that would have a board of that make up in a customer driven industry.

I feel sorry for not just their paying customers, but for the frontline staff that would have delivered the news of the grounding to thousands who were expecting their flights to leave. Gutless management, you could have had the bottle to come to the terminals yourself, but you left the staff take the heat.

spot on ct …. unions have to give 72hr notice of intention to strike yet ' management ' can pull this action at will without consequence. imagine if the unions did the action of a no notice strike. i could not imagine the bleating from qantas mgmt, news ltd press and that machiovellian mysogeonous middle-aged master of malicious misleading mis-information mr jones. but no doubt the media bias will once again paint those evil unions and their members as the villians with no criticism whatsoever of the ceo of qantas. wonderful place oz !!

What a load of crap. These mongrels have been striking and carrying on for months now. Joyces actions will imediately bring an end to this non sense.

I don't think it's a load of crap at all. It is true. All strike action has been well advised since this whole thing started. Mongrels? They are representing their workers. Your arrogance astounds me.

Can you answer me one thing Stryker… just one thing.

Do you think its is just that this mongrel Joyce has gone about "tightening belts" and "cutting back" consistently, especially during the industrial action taken by the unions, yet 24hrs before he calls all operations to a halt he gives himself a pay rise of 71%? What has he done to earn this?

Whatever side of the political spectrum you reside, sure you don't believe these actions are just?

 

[hammertime]

So Industrial action has been terminated, planes will be back in the air this afternoon, both parties are obliged to work out the eba's over the next 6 weeks or the IR umpire will do it for them, the government has proven themselves to be useless and the share market price has jumped 4.5%.

Not a bad result for Joyce. One of the ballsiest management decisions in recent memory.

Actually, the more light that has been shed on it, the more I understand the decision. Joyce didn't have any assistance from the government, so he used the legislation. Which says that the Fair Work tribunal comes into play only when there is substantial impact to the economy.

The union action wasn't enough, so he stopped all flights so that he received immediate action from the tribunal.

I hope they amend the legislation so that a company doesn't have to resort to that action next time!

 

[Tiger_Watto]

Do you think its is just that this mongrel Joyce has gone about "tightening belts" and "cutting back" consistently, especially during the industrial action taken by the unions, yet 24hrs before he calls all operations to a halt he gives himself a pay rise of 71%? What has he done to earn this?

Whatever side of the political spectrum you reside, sure you don't believe these actions are just?

Kaiser, I think Executive Salaries are irrelevant to the actions… They are a seperate issue, have NO bearing on the current industrial dispute, and is only for the Shareholders of Qantas to decide...

Your bringing in a different debate which carries emotion for many Australians who live on a minimum wage and cant fathom Executive Salaries and thier worth...

 

[hammertime]

Do you think its is just that this mongrel Joyce has gone about "tightening belts" and "cutting back" consistently, especially during the industrial action taken by the unions, yet 24hrs before he calls all operations to a halt he gives himself a pay rise of 71%? What has he done to earn this?

Whatever side of the political spectrum you reside, sure you don't believe these actions are just?

The chairmen and shareholders decide on his salary.

…and I think the bloke having the balls to do this and put up with death threats deserves every cent. He turning a ship around that is on course towards an iceberg that should have been turned around a long time ago.

If the unions want to make a real impact, then they need to look at the balance sheet and market data to come up with a plan that will keep the $80k that the baggage handlers are getting paid, viable.

Joyce has a long-term plan to save Qantas, the unions are doing nothing constructive but trying to hold management to ransom with a plan that will not work.

 

[stryker]

Kaiser, i believe Joyce has been running a company that is really struggling to keep its head afloat with external pressures constantly applying pressure to the bottom line.

With the upgraded costs associated with global terrorism, fuel pricing, the GFC and the high Australian dollar he has been up against it for his whole tenure. Obviously I havent seen the balance sheets but it stands to reason that changes have to be made.

The timing of the executive pay bumps is unfortunate as it does look bad…however Joyces payrise has increased his salary to just under 50% of what his predecessor was on. He has been underpaid for years now. He is still earning $5miliion less than he was in 2007\. Now if you and I were earning half of what we were earning 4 years ago we would have left the industry. He has stuck around and tried his best to increase profits. This earned him a pay bump that is still less than what he deserves.

Then the time for eba upgrades has come around and I would assume he has relayed information that targets could not be met at this time. Instead of working with management so that all employees stay in work, the unions have taken their usual hard line which resulted in industrial action. Couple this with the fact that the current government is jam packed with ex union officials and he knew he was up against it.

His solution? an immediate and devastating counter attack that took all players by surprise and forced the situation into checkmate. He has taken the power from the unions and government and restored his authority as the BOSS. The workers will get their upgrades...maybe not exactly what they want but what can be afforded and the company continues trading. The workers arent doing it tough, they are well compensated by industry standards and there is some gaurantee that these claims can be settled as if management and union negotiations again fail, an IR umpire will step in and sort things out.

The unions are screaming more about their power struggle loss than the rights of their workers. They were fully prepared to ramp up their industrial action and some claimed it would last for another year. How could this have resulted in anything less than mass redundancies? The workers should be greatful they have a boss who has the mettle to fight for the companies future and allow them to continue having a job which is currently paying above industry standards.

So in a nutshell...yes I think he has done the right thing even though it has cost the company $40Million in lost revenue, untold harm to the company brand and untold harm to him personally.

 

[Yossarian]

Do you think its is just that this mongrel Joyce has gone about "tightening belts" and "cutting back" consistently, especially during the industrial action taken by the unions, yet 24hrs before he calls all operations to a halt he gives himself a pay rise of 71%? What has he done to earn this?

Whatever side of the political spectrum you reside, sure you don't believe these actions are just?

The chairmen and shareholders decide on his salary.

…and I think the bloke having the balls to do this and put up with death threats deserves every cent. He turning a ship around that is on course towards an iceberg that should have been turned around a long time ago.

If the unions want to make a real impact, then they need to look at the balance sheet and market data to come up with a plan that will keep the $80k that the baggage handlers are getting paid, viable.

Joyce has a long-term plan to save Qantas, the unions are doing nothing constructive but trying to hold management to ransom with a plan that will not work.

Death threats? Oh come now… There was one vaguely worded email that contained no direct threat at all. Once again, as others have also said, this is not a union-led campaign directed by the ACTU or some big wig. These are staff members making these calls - Qantas staff members. So its a bit rich to blame the "unions" (assuming you consider the AIPA a union). Blame the staff members if you want but the union bashing is out of place here.

 

[happy_tiger]

Do you think its is just that this mongrel Joyce has gone about "tightening belts" and "cutting back" consistently, especially during the industrial action taken by the unions, yet 24hrs before he calls all operations to a halt he gives himself a pay rise of 71%? What has he done to earn this?

Whatever side of the political spectrum you reside, sure you don't believe these actions are just?

The chairmen and shareholders decide on his salary.

…and I think the bloke having the balls to do this and put up with death threats deserves every cent. He turning a ship around that is on course towards an iceberg that should have been turned around a long time ago.

If the unions want to make a real impact, then they need to look at the balance sheet and market data to come up with a plan that will keep the $80k that the baggage handlers are getting paid, viable.

Joyce has a long-term plan to save Qantas, the unions are doing nothing constructive but trying to hold management to ransom with a plan that will not work.

Death threats? Oh come now… There was one vaguely worded email that contained no direct threat at all. Once again, as others have also said, this is not a union-led campaign directed by the ACTU or some big wig. These are staff members making these calls - Qantas staff members. So its a bit rich to blame the "unions" (assuming you consider the AIPA a union). Blame the staff members if you want but the union bashing is out of place here.

I suppose until you recieve a death threat even if it is remotely pointed in your direction you can't be sure how you'll react Yoss Especially when you have wife kids etc

 

[Yossarian]

Death threats? Oh come now… There was one vaguely worded email that contained no direct threat at all. Once again, as others have also said, this is not a union-led campaign directed by the ACTU or some big wig. These are staff members making these calls - Qantas staff members. So its a bit rich to blame the "unions" (assuming you consider the AIPA a union). Blame the staff members if you want but the union bashing is out of place here.

I suppose until you recieve a death threat even if it is remotely pointed in your direction you can't be sure how you'll react Yoss Especially when you have wife kids etc

I'm saying it wasn't a death threat. It was interpreted by one very reactionary news organisation as a death threat. As per usual it was a beat-up. But in any case its got nothing to do with his salary. I used to work in a line-of-work that posed some danger but I didn't get paid danger money.

 

[stryker]

this is not a union-led campaign directed by the ACTU or some big wig. These are staff members making these calls - Qantas staff members. So its a bit rich to blame the "unions" (assuming you consider the AIPA a union). Blame the staff members if you want but the union bashing is out of place here.

I dont think you can definitevely make the statement mate….I noticed Paul Howse was involved with Saturday nights arbitration. He has proven time and again to be a weasel working the system from behind the scenes. It is not at all out of place to assume the big boys were pulling the strings or at least keeping the momentum going.

Its like the old saying - 'a person is smart but people are irrational and easily led' the unions know this and they are experts at whipping up fear and loathing. I know this through many personal experiences where stop work and tool box meetings have very quickly turned into a rally as some official grandstands for the masses.

 

[hammertime]

Death threats? Oh come now… There was one vaguely worded email that contained no direct threat at all. Once again, as others have also said, this is not a union-led campaign directed by the ACTU or some big wig. These are staff members making these calls - Qantas staff members. So its a bit rich to blame the "unions" (assuming you consider the AIPA a union). Blame the staff members if you want but the union bashing is out of place here.

Mate, even one of the posters on here was saying he could be assassinated. Imagine being thought of in that vein? I certainly couldn't handle it.

As far as I know, any collection of employees is defined as a union. But the TWU, AIPA and ALAEA are involved. Maybe every newspaper, TV and other media commentators have it all wrong?

Collective Industrial action is the problem and any type of union cause this. That's what the bashing is based on. Not talking about the even greater power plays that players like the ACTU are involved in.

 

[Yossarian]

Could be assassinated? Okay here is the "threat". Make of it what you will, I'm not going to debate whether the guy is in danger, I'm just suggesting the publicised threat was overblown. Anyway here it is:

"It's coming soon Paddy. You can't even see it!

"The Unions will fight you … Qantas is our airline, started & staffed by Australians, not foreign filth like you.

"All your evil plans ... will come back to you very swiftly, & kick you (sic) Irish FOREIGN ARSE out of the country."

 

[Yossarian]

this is not a union-led campaign directed by the ACTU or some big wig. These are staff members making these calls - Qantas staff members. So its a bit rich to blame the "unions" (assuming you consider the AIPA a union). Blame the staff members if you want but the union bashing is out of place here.

I dont think you can definitevely make the statement mate….I noticed Paul Howse was involved with Saturday nights arbitration. He has proven time and again to be a weasel working the system from behind the scenes. It is not at all out of place to assume the big boys were pulling the strings or at least keeping the momentum going.

Its like the old saying - 'a person is smart but people are irrational and easily led' the unions know this and they are experts at whipping up fear and loathing. I know this through many personal experiences where stop work and tool box meetings have very quickly turned into a rally as some official grandstands for the masses.

Paul Howse has a special talent for sticking his nose in when it is not needed. As per usual something as nothing to do with him or his union but when you're a media tart like him you'll bob up at the drop of a hat. You can think what you want (obviously) but even if there is some input from these people, the push is coming from the floor