Recruitment

[facepalmer]

I mapped out the way I would handle recruitment strategy in a post back in April. I actually think now I'd probably even just completely ditch targeting marquees at all because our club is forced to pay premiums for any of them if we want them and we just really shouldn't do it. Maybe one day we can land marquee talent at market value but not while our club is in the shape it is.

https://weststigersforum.com/topic/32217/recruitment-strategy-for-2021-and-beyond?_=1626863349472

What’s your call on Newcastle?
Interesting how you mentioned you only go all out if you think you have a shot at the premiership.
Did they ditch their initial rebuild strategy too early. Which was through their juniors whilst recruiting quality experienced players around them.
In one year they went from signing Kurt Mann and Jacob Lillyman to signing Mitchell Pearce and David Klemmer.
Did they jump the premiership window gun too soon?
Would they been better off holding out a couple more years for some of those young players they ditched to build a better squad core and depth?

I ask because I feel like we are at that point right now where they were, ‘crying foul that even though Jack Bird promised them the world he went for a higher profile club with a perceived better outcome.’

From that moment though they hit the switch and just bought every discard.

100% correct. They should never have signed Klemmer especially on big money. Nor probably Connor Watson either. They are in a very similar boat to us, but they have further to go to get out of it.

I agree with everything you said here.

 

[facepalmer]

What makes everyone so sure that the current roster will play for a different coach...

Shouldn't they want to play for personal performance and some pride in the jersey they put on..

Sure the Dogs recruitment has been out of this world on paper as was the Knights a few year back..it's got them nowhere really..basically they went away from junior development to trying to buy success..hasn't really worked out yet..doesn't look like it's going too

It's yet to be seen if it does at the Dogs..could work..could flop massively..

Building from within does produce results if done properly.. You develop Jake Simpkin to be our Harry Grant, Stefano Utoikamanu to be our Payne Hass, Tuki Simpkins to be our Pangia Jnr and so on.. Sure that doesn't mean if quality becomes available you don't have a crack or even pay overs if they are exceptional quality Brandon Smith like..

Buying comps has never been as successful as building them..

Our club is great at finding and developing promising juniors. Unfortunately we are terrible at retaining them

Tim Sheens didn't have that issue in retaining them... We were only terrible through the Potter/Taylor/Voldamort years..

That needs to change clearly they are putting measures in place to rectify those shortfalls..

Here's an analogy.

You are the best at what you do. You win industry awards. But the company doesn't grow and you can't grow because of it. You look around you and your managers are dinosaurs or idiots with bad reputations. Suddenly GOOGLE sends you a message on LinkedIn. "We want you and will make you the highest paid employee in your entire industry".

Do you leave or stay?

How many times in the Sheens era did we hear Farah and Benji state they stayed for less than they could have got elsewhere.. yes it turned sour at the end..mainly because Sheens wanted to refresh the boys Club ..The downhill slide really began and the Wests Tigers have never recovered..

If you believe in what you are doing you stay and make your mark but that's me..

Farah and Benji stayed because they were paid a TON, massive overs, backloaded overs and we did that because we had a wide open premiership window between 2010 and 2012.

The main reason it turned sour is because we sacked Sheens after a single down year that mostly caused by injuries when in reality if you look at the Roosters (and ignore Melbourne), single down years when you have backloaded stars are a given eventually anyway. We chose to listen to the players and sacked Sheens whose long term plan to build us into a consistent contending team had actually just started to work (even though he was no doubt unusual and frustrating at times).

You will never stay at an organisation you don't believe in, on unders. You may stay for massive overs. An exception would be if you were on the back nine and cared more about stability and security, didn't believe you had much else to accomplish etc.

 

[Geo]

What makes everyone so sure that the current roster will play for a different coach...

Shouldn't they want to play for personal performance and some pride in the jersey they put on..

Sure the Dogs recruitment has been out of this world on paper as was the Knights a few year back..it's got them nowhere really..basically they went away from junior development to trying to buy success..hasn't really worked out yet..doesn't look like it's going too

It's yet to be seen if it does at the Dogs..could work..could flop massively..

Building from within does produce results if done properly.. You develop Jake Simpkin to be our Harry Grant, Stefano Utoikamanu to be our Payne Hass, Tuki Simpkins to be our Pangia Jnr and so on.. Sure that doesn't mean if quality becomes available you don't have a crack or even pay overs if they are exceptional quality Brandon Smith like..

Buying comps has never been as successful as building them..

Our club is great at finding and developing promising juniors. Unfortunately we are terrible at retaining them

Tim Sheens didn't have that issue in retaining them... We were only terrible through the Potter/Taylor/Voldamort years..

That needs to change clearly they are putting measures in place to rectify those shortfalls..

Here's an analogy.

You are the best at what you do. You win industry awards. But the company doesn't grow and you can't grow because of it. You look around you and your managers are dinosaurs or idiots with bad reputations. Suddenly GOOGLE sends you a message on LinkedIn. "We want you and will make you the highest paid employee in your entire industry".

Do you leave or stay?

How many times in the Sheens era did we hear Farah and Benji state they stayed for less than they could have got elsewhere.. yes it turned sour at the end..mainly because Sheens wanted to refresh the boys Club ..The downhill slide really began and the Wests Tigers have never recovered..

If you believe in what you are doing you stay and make your mark but that's me..

Farah and Benji stayed because they were paid a TON, massive overs, backloaded overs and we did that because we had a wide open premiership window between 2010 and 2012.

The main reason it turned sour is because we sacked Sheens after a single down year that mostly caused by injuries when in reality if you look at the Roosters (and ignore Melbourne), single down years when you have backloaded stars are a given eventually anyway. We chose to listen to the players and sacked Sheens whose long term plan to build us into a consistent contending team had actually just started to work (even though he was no doubt unusual and frustrating at times).

You will never stay at an organisation you don't believe in, on unders. You may stay for massive overs. An exception would be if you were on the back nine and cared more about stability and security, didn't believe you had much else to accomplish etc.

Yes there where on a ton but your hypothetical was if someone else offered more would you take it..they claimed they were offered more..

 

[Jedi_Tiger]

The recruitment has been a bit of a shambles for almost the whole existence of the club tbh. We had a couple of good crops that wielded results, but even then we've only had three finals series (albeit we won a comp and could/should have won another).

Since 2011 the club has gone from panic move to panic move, resulting in lots of failed short term moves. Who can forget old mate Grant Mayer speculating that we'd make a GF in the mid 2010s?

I am a bit more confident in the club's direction over the last year or two. We've made some shrewd buys for the first time in a while, and some very promising youngsters on top of that. There have still been mis-steps (e.g. BJ) but I can at least see what we're building towards now. Hopefully we continue along that route in picking up these young guys and developing them into frontline FGers.

Of course, we'll still need to recruit elite players on top of that. The COE should help - I can't imagine the current/past facilities have sold the club very well.
But it's the old conundrum: you can't sign elite players until you have an elite team. And you can't have an elite team until you have elite players.

There is so much denial in this forum. This comment is a great example.

How have the Bulldogs signed Addo Carr, Tevita, and Burton then?

They do not have an elite team. What about the Titans signing Tino and Fifita? Did they have an elite team?

There are more factors at play here. Our location, our lack of success (3 finals in 21 years), our inability to locate and keep talent, our disregard of campbelltown, a lack of identity etc etc etc

If I was an NRL player right now, with my love of the Tigers, and had an option of the Tigers or any one else, I would not go to this club.

Tigers are the last Sydney club you'd choose. No home ground, no identity, it's not prime area to live, there's really nothing much there to attract people off the field let alone our decade of failure and drama. This is why we need to win games and make finals because we are behind other clubs in those other areas.


There are only 2 possible reasons we can’t get our player to sign on, you’ve mentioned one, the players don’t see the club as a reputation building club. A club with no home ground. Every time I think about that, it leads me to believe that the club’s administration just don’t get it.
The other reason could be, simply that our negotiating team simply don’t have the skill to close the deal? Now this is more likely the case considering that we are often the front runners for the signature.

I don’t believe the “no home ground” thing is an issue for players as much as it is for some fans, players will play where ever they are told, I would have thought?

I think the negotiation team is fine imo, we have a policy of not going over a value we have put on a players worth, other clubs put that worth higher than us. There is a long way to go to next season, I would be confident that the recruitment team have other players in there sights, so all is not lost.


Sure the players will play wherever, but having a home offers another inspirational level. If it didn’t then the other 15 clubs would follow the WT lead and have no home ground. Not having a home ground sends a message of instability and lack of longevity, it’s an integral part of the WT story.
There is a huge difference in having other players in their sights and actually signing players. They get deep into discussions, then decide to move in a different direction. Other clubs seem to be more focussed on achieving their goals.




The club has to make the decision if staying with a strategy that was initiated over 20yrs ago when the club was formed or moving forward now the entity is owned by one . Until the truth of the situation is laid bare nothing will change the failure will continue.
This club is not a joint venture club anymore and there is no need to play out of multiple grounds , this club is owned by ONE entity and therefore should have one home ground this is the reality of the situation this is the truth ,board members should face the facts of the situation it’s called leadership and this club really needs some !
GIVE US A HOME!

so they make it Leichardt then campbletown fans are unhappy campbletown then Leichardt fans are unhappy
make one of the big stadiums and a boutique game at CSS and LO

 

[Russell]

The recruitment has been a bit of a shambles for almost the whole existence of the club tbh. We had a couple of good crops that wielded results, but even then we've only had three finals series (albeit we won a comp and could/should have won another).

Since 2011 the club has gone from panic move to panic move, resulting in lots of failed short term moves. Who can forget old mate Grant Mayer speculating that we'd make a GF in the mid 2010s?

I am a bit more confident in the club's direction over the last year or two. We've made some shrewd buys for the first time in a while, and some very promising youngsters on top of that. There have still been mis-steps (e.g. BJ) but I can at least see what we're building towards now. Hopefully we continue along that route in picking up these young guys and developing them into frontline FGers.

Of course, we'll still need to recruit elite players on top of that. The COE should help - I can't imagine the current/past facilities have sold the club very well.
But it's the old conundrum: you can't sign elite players until you have an elite team. And you can't have an elite team until you have elite players.

There is so much denial in this forum. This comment is a great example.

How have the Bulldogs signed Addo Carr, Tevita, and Burton then?

They do not have an elite team. What about the Titans signing Tino and Fifita? Did they have an elite team?

There are more factors at play here. Our location, our lack of success (3 finals in 21 years), our inability to locate and keep talent, our disregard of campbelltown, a lack of identity etc etc etc

If I was an NRL player right now, with my love of the Tigers, and had an option of the Tigers or any one else, I would not go to this club.

Tigers are the last Sydney club you'd choose. No home ground, no identity, it's not prime area to live, there's really nothing much there to attract people off the field let alone our decade of failure and drama. This is why we need to win games and make finals because we are behind other clubs in those other areas.

The inner west is a highly desirable area in which to live. Balmain, Glebe, Leichhardt, Ashfield and Strathfield just to name a few good suburbs.

But you don't have to live where you play, not since the 70's so it doesn't matter?

There are those who live in Balmain and those who wish they could.

Used to be true. I loved Balmain growing up, envied the Wayne Pearce story more than anything. But I walk around now and don't really like the place. I was there last week and I thought how I was sort of glad we merged with wests because at least we're geographically connected to a community I'm proud the club represents. That's not Balmain anymore. Beautiful by the water and all, but the bankers and lawyers and marketing people are turning the suburb into double bay with their spiffy renovations and audis. Place has lost its character.

I grew up in Balmain and loved every second of it, when asked at the time, where you lived, you said Balmain, the reply would be "Oh! from the slums eh!"

Have been back quite a few times over the years and watched it deteriorate at an alarming rate. that is to say after the "Trendies" moved in, now the "Wankers" and "Would be's if they could be's."

I return even less now - most of the people who live there now are pretty much selfish, for themselves types, very few Tigers supporters in the area.

If you were in trouble in the old days, people would come from everywhere to help - now they would leave you on the footpath bleeding and go home to sit on their verandah and drink their Chardonnay.

How the mighty suburb has fallen.

 

[facepalmer]

What makes everyone so sure that the current roster will play for a different coach...

Shouldn't they want to play for personal performance and some pride in the jersey they put on..

Sure the Dogs recruitment has been out of this world on paper as was the Knights a few year back..it's got them nowhere really..basically they went away from junior development to trying to buy success..hasn't really worked out yet..doesn't look like it's going too

It's yet to be seen if it does at the Dogs..could work..could flop massively..

Building from within does produce results if done properly.. You develop Jake Simpkin to be our Harry Grant, Stefano Utoikamanu to be our Payne Hass, Tuki Simpkins to be our Pangia Jnr and so on.. Sure that doesn't mean if quality becomes available you don't have a crack or even pay overs if they are exceptional quality Brandon Smith like..

Buying comps has never been as successful as building them..

Our club is great at finding and developing promising juniors. Unfortunately we are terrible at retaining them

Tim Sheens didn't have that issue in retaining them... We were only terrible through the Potter/Taylor/Voldamort years..

That needs to change clearly they are putting measures in place to rectify those shortfalls..

Here's an analogy.

You are the best at what you do. You win industry awards. But the company doesn't grow and you can't grow because of it. You look around you and your managers are dinosaurs or idiots with bad reputations. Suddenly GOOGLE sends you a message on LinkedIn. "We want you and will make you the highest paid employee in your entire industry".

Do you leave or stay?

How many times in the Sheens era did we hear Farah and Benji state they stayed for less than they could have got elsewhere.. yes it turned sour at the end..mainly because Sheens wanted to refresh the boys Club ..The downhill slide really began and the Wests Tigers have never recovered..

If you believe in what you are doing you stay and make your mark but that's me..

Farah and Benji stayed because they were paid a TON, massive overs, backloaded overs and we did that because we had a wide open premiership window between 2010 and 2012.

The main reason it turned sour is because we sacked Sheens after a single down year that mostly caused by injuries when in reality if you look at the Roosters (and ignore Melbourne), single down years when you have backloaded stars are a given eventually anyway. We chose to listen to the players and sacked Sheens whose long term plan to build us into a consistent contending team had actually just started to work (even though he was no doubt unusual and frustrating at times).

You will never stay at an organisation you don't believe in, on unders. You may stay for massive overs. An exception would be if you were on the back nine and cared more about stability and security, didn't believe you had much else to accomplish etc.

Yes there where on a ton but your hypothetical was if someone else offered more would you take it..they claimed they were offered more..

My analogy was more about James Tedesco anyway. The Roosters being Google and our show being a joke at the time. You can't really compete with the Roosters when they really want a player. It's just something we have to live with. Losing Papenhuyzen was really sad in hindsight but every team loses good young players (we have been feasting on other team's juniors lately). The biggest misfire that we probably should cop on the chin is Addo-Carr given he apparently loved the club but again I put that down to the head coach at the time also for persistently not picking him in first grade. Moses leaving was completely on the head coach at the time so can't really be counted against us (nor does anyone miss the dude, nor has he won a comp since or really achieved much). In my opinion Matterson and Aloiai both left because they were not treated like the marquees they thought they both were, and that's an extension of how we treat new signings. Don't pay overs just because they're already at the club. Matterson has gone on to be worse at Parramatta and Aloiai is off the bench at Manly. No losses either of them really. Keeping either of them changes our fortunes none in my view.

Look at some of the other players we've moved on. Marsters has gone nowhere. McIntyre isn't doing much.

My main point here is that even retention isn't as bad as it looks. The biggest single reason we are suffering right now is because we made the mistake of giving Cleary carte blanche to make signings when we had a war chest and he went and paid massive overs on long contracts for players that were valued exceedingly badly. Doesn't mean he's a bad coach but he made a terrible mistake and cost us bigly. So long as we have the right coaches in our club actually developing our talent, and our systems and processes are on an equal playing field Hartigan's approach to roster management is sustainable and will work. I am pretty dang sure of it.

 

[TigerWest]

What makes everyone so sure that the current roster will play for a different coach...

Shouldn't they want to play for personal performance and some pride in the jersey they put on..

Sure the Dogs recruitment has been out of this world on paper as was the Knights a few year back..it's got them nowhere really..basically they went away from junior development to trying to buy success..hasn't really worked out yet..doesn't look like it's going too

It's yet to be seen if it does at the Dogs..could work..could flop massively..

Building from within does produce results if done properly.. You develop Jake Simpkin to be our Harry Grant, Stefano Utoikamanu to be our Payne Hass, Tuki Simpkins to be our Pangia Jnr and so on.. Sure that doesn't mean if quality becomes available you don't have a crack or even pay overs if they are exceptional quality Brandon Smith like..

Buying comps has never been as successful as building them..

Our club is great at finding and developing promising juniors. Unfortunately we are terrible at retaining them

Tim Sheens didn't have that issue in retaining them... We were only terrible through the Potter/Taylor/Voldamort years..

That needs to change clearly they are putting measures in place to rectify those shortfalls..

Here's an analogy.

You are the best at what you do. You win industry awards. But the company doesn't grow and you can't grow because of it. You look around you and your managers are dinosaurs or idiots with bad reputations. Suddenly GOOGLE sends you a message on LinkedIn. "We want you and will make you the highest paid employee in your entire industry".

Do you leave or stay?

How many times in the Sheens era did we hear Farah and Benji state they stayed for less than they could have got elsewhere.. yes it turned sour at the end..mainly because Sheens wanted to refresh the boys Club ..The downhill slide really began and the Wests Tigers have never recovered..

If you believe in what you are doing you stay and make your mark but that's me..

Farah and Benji stayed because they were paid a TON, massive overs, backloaded overs and we did that because we had a wide open premiership window between 2010 and 2012.

The main reason it turned sour is because we sacked Sheens after a single down year that mostly caused by injuries when in reality if you look at the Roosters (and ignore Melbourne), single down years when you have backloaded stars are a given eventually anyway. We chose to listen to the players and sacked Sheens whose long term plan to build us into a consistent contending team had actually just started to work (even though he was no doubt unusual and frustrating at times).

You will never stay at an organisation you don't believe in, on unders. You may stay for massive overs. An exception would be if you were on the back nine and cared more about stability and security, didn't believe you had much else to accomplish etc.

Yes there where on a ton but your hypothetical was if someone else offered more would you take it..they claimed they were offered more..

My analogy was more about James Tedesco anyway. The Roosters being Google and our show being a joke at the time. You can't really compete with the Roosters when they really want a player. It's just something we have to live with. Losing Papenhuyzen was really sad in hindsight but every team loses good young players (we have been feasting on other team's juniors lately). The biggest misfire that we probably should cop on the chin is Addo-Carr given he apparently loved the club but again I put that down to the head coach at the time also for persistently not picking him in first grade. Moses leaving was completely on the head coach at the time so can't really be counted against us (nor does anyone miss the dude, nor has he won a comp since or really achieved much). In my opinion Matterson and Aloiai both left because they were not treated like the marquees they thought they both were, and that's an extension of how we treat new signings. Don't pay overs just because they're already at the club. Matterson has gone on to be worse at Parramatta and Aloiai is off the bench at Manly. No losses either of them really. Keeping either of them changes our fortunes none in my view.

Look at some of the other players we've moved on. Marsters has gone nowhere. McIntyre isn't doing much.

My main point here is that even retention isn't as bad as it looks. The biggest single reason we are suffering right now is because we made the mistake of giving Cleary carte blanche to make signings when we had a war chest and he went and paid massive overs on long contracts for players that were valued exceedingly badly. Doesn't mean he's a bad coach but he made a terrible mistake and cost us bigly. So long as we have the right coaches in our club actually developing our talent, and our systems and processes are on an equal playing field Hartigan's approach to roster management is sustainable and will work. I am pretty dang sure of it.

I think the Cleary signings were the catalyst to change our recruitment system, I understand also that our big signings during his time were all with the same manager as he was?

 

[facepalmer]

Recruitment - Don't pay overs. Sign young players from other clubs that have great qualities that are stuck behind quality first graders. Preferably good clubs. If you can get quality culture guys at good prices do it. We aren't the Roosters, if we try to sign a top 10 NRL player we will pay a premium and ruin our cap.

Retention - Reward performance. Reward culture oriented behaviour. Don't pay overs just because they are at your club.

Development - The prime focus of the Wests Tigers. Success in junior rep teams will breed success at the top grade. Poach quality kids from other clubs at a young age and develop them through our junior teams. Take advantage of our extremely large catchment. Continue to poach the eyeballs out of the massive SEQ catchment. Add more pathways in country NSW and NZ. Actually put energy and effort into winning the Matts, SG Ball and the Flegg. Maybe even worth running Wests Tigers teams in the former two comps so that our best players come up together rather than having the separation.

Don't sign marquees. Stop actually trying to because it just frustrates the fans. Never pay overs whether to retain or sign. Keep poaching the eyeballs out of juniors.

I am confident that Hartigan is playing his part. That Pascoe is bringing Sheens back and signed Kimmorley indicates he is putting the focus on development too! Great stuff.

 

[diedpretty]

The recruitment has been a bit of a shambles for almost the whole existence of the club tbh. We had a couple of good crops that wielded results, but even then we've only had three finals series (albeit we won a comp and could/should have won another).

Since 2011 the club has gone from panic move to panic move, resulting in lots of failed short term moves. Who can forget old mate Grant Mayer speculating that we'd make a GF in the mid 2010s?

I am a bit more confident in the club's direction over the last year or two. We've made some shrewd buys for the first time in a while, and some very promising youngsters on top of that. There have still been mis-steps (e.g. BJ) but I can at least see what we're building towards now. Hopefully we continue along that route in picking up these young guys and developing them into frontline FGers.

Of course, we'll still need to recruit elite players on top of that. The COE should help - I can't imagine the current/past facilities have sold the club very well.
But it's the old conundrum: you can't sign elite players until you have an elite team. And you can't have an elite team until you have elite players.

There is so much denial in this forum. This comment is a great example.

How have the Bulldogs signed Addo Carr, Tevita, and Burton then?

They do not have an elite team. What about the Titans signing Tino and Fifita? Did they have an elite team?

There are more factors at play here. Our location, our lack of success (3 finals in 21 years), our inability to locate and keep talent, our disregard of campbelltown, a lack of identity etc etc etc

If I was an NRL player right now, with my love of the Tigers, and had an option of the Tigers or any one else, I would not go to this club.

Tigers are the last Sydney club you'd choose. No home ground, no identity, it's not prime area to live, there's really nothing much there to attract people off the field let alone our decade of failure and drama. This is why we need to win games and make finals because we are behind other clubs in those other areas.

The inner west is a highly desirable area in which to live. Balmain, Glebe, Leichhardt, Ashfield and Strathfield just to name a few good suburbs.

Yea i thought it was funny that he threw that in - and i'm sure JAC, TPJ and Burton will enjoy living in Lakemba or Punchbowl.

 

[Needaname]

I mapped out the way I would handle recruitment strategy in a post back in April. I actually think now I'd probably even just completely ditch targeting marquees at all because our club is forced to pay premiums for any of them if we want them and we just really shouldn't do it. Maybe one day we can land marquee talent at market value but not while our club is in the shape it is.

https://weststigersforum.com/topic/32217/recruitment-strategy-for-2021-and-beyond?_=1626863349472

What’s your call on Newcastle?
Interesting how you mentioned you only go all out if you think you have a shot at the premiership.
Did they ditch their initial rebuild strategy too early. Which was through their juniors whilst recruiting quality experienced players around them.
In one year they went from signing Kurt Mann and Jacob Lillyman to signing Mitchell Pearce and David Klemmer.
Did they jump the premiership window gun too soon?
Would they been better off holding out a couple more years for some of those young players they ditched to build a better squad core and depth?

I ask because I feel like we are at that point right now where they were, ‘crying foul that even though Jack Bird promised them the world he went for a higher profile club with a perceived better outcome.’

From that moment though they hit the switch and just bought every discard.

100% correct. They should never have signed Klemmer especially on big money. Nor probably Connor Watson either. They are in a very similar boat to us, but they have further to go to get out of it.

I agree with everything you said here.

Thanks.
It’s hard to say whether some of Newcastle’s recent recruitment choices were building blocks to give time to development or whether they were crucially bad decisions.
You could make a case for Klemmer being a leader for Safiti to build into the force his become.
Young Brailey is a talent and like Ponga was bought with a long term goal in mind after moving on from Levi and not giving Starling much opportunity.
Pearce though; they moved on their talented halves in Cocker, Lamb, and even young Madden and kept only Crossland.
Same goes for Meany being discarded as nothing but a backup for Ponga.
I believe in recruiting Frizzell last year they were expecting to be well in the race this year. Sure injuries have crippled them. As did it to Manly last year and 2018 where the teams depth was exposed.
The same thing is happening to the Knights this year. They’ve over spent on the top end of the cap and it’s affected the quality of the remainder of the squad.

In part I see the Bulldogs either going down that path next year or following a similar trend to the Eels in 2018. On paper they looked top 4. But it didn’t work out that way for them.

Although there is also a chance they pull off a 2013 bought premiership but. The big factor that needs to change is the club itself. They are not the Roosters. Do they have it in them to think and achieve excellence and do each of their recruits believe it’s possible.

 

[facepalmer]

I mapped out the way I would handle recruitment strategy in a post back in April. I actually think now I'd probably even just completely ditch targeting marquees at all because our club is forced to pay premiums for any of them if we want them and we just really shouldn't do it. Maybe one day we can land marquee talent at market value but not while our club is in the shape it is.

https://weststigersforum.com/topic/32217/recruitment-strategy-for-2021-and-beyond?_=1626863349472

What’s your call on Newcastle?
Interesting how you mentioned you only go all out if you think you have a shot at the premiership.
Did they ditch their initial rebuild strategy too early. Which was through their juniors whilst recruiting quality experienced players around them.
In one year they went from signing Kurt Mann and Jacob Lillyman to signing Mitchell Pearce and David Klemmer.
Did they jump the premiership window gun too soon?
Would they been better off holding out a couple more years for some of those young players they ditched to build a better squad core and depth?

I ask because I feel like we are at that point right now where they were, ‘crying foul that even though Jack Bird promised them the world he went for a higher profile club with a perceived better outcome.’

From that moment though they hit the switch and just bought every discard.

100% correct. They should never have signed Klemmer especially on big money. Nor probably Connor Watson either. They are in a very similar boat to us, but they have further to go to get out of it.

I agree with everything you said here.

Thanks.
It’s hard to say whether some of Newcastle’s recent recruitment choices were building blocks to give time to development or whether they were crucially bad decisions.
You could make a case for Klemmer being a leader for Safiti to build into the force his become.
Young Brailey is a talent and like Ponga was bought with a long term goal in mind after moving on from Levi and not giving Starling much opportunity.
Pearce though; they moved on their talented halves in Cocker, Lamb, and even young Madden and kept only Crossland.
Same goes for Meany being discarded as nothing but a backup for Ponga.
I believe in recruiting Frizzell last year they were expecting to be well in the race this year. Sure injuries have crippled them. As did it to Manly last year and 2018 where the teams depth was exposed.
The same thing is happening to the Knights this year. They’ve over spent on the top end of the cap and it’s affected the quality of the remainder of the squad.

In part I see the Bulldogs either going down that path next year or following a similar trend to the Eels in 2018. On paper they looked top 4. But it didn’t work out that way for them.

Although there is also a chance they pull off a 2013 bought premiership but. The big factor that needs to change is the club itself. They are not the Roosters. Do they have it in them to think and achieve excellence and do each of their recruits believe it’s possible.

Exactly. For the Dogs strategy to work requires them to not have to test their depth because there isn't going to be much. They're going to have to gut their roster to fit the signings they've made in. Even then they just simply might not get over the hump. They may not gel. They may have culture issues. They may have off field concerns. JAC and TPJ in Sydney sounds fun!

 

[GarryOwen]

The recruitment has been a bit of a shambles for almost the whole existence of the club tbh. We had a couple of good crops that wielded results, but even then we've only had three finals series (albeit we won a comp and could/should have won another).

Since 2011 the club has gone from panic move to panic move, resulting in lots of failed short term moves. Who can forget old mate Grant Mayer speculating that we'd make a GF in the mid 2010s?

I am a bit more confident in the club's direction over the last year or two. We've made some shrewd buys for the first time in a while, and some very promising youngsters on top of that. There have still been mis-steps (e.g. BJ) but I can at least see what we're building towards now. Hopefully we continue along that route in picking up these young guys and developing them into frontline FGers.

Of course, we'll still need to recruit elite players on top of that. The COE should help - I can't imagine the current/past facilities have sold the club very well.
But it's the old conundrum: you can't sign elite players until you have an elite team. And you can't have an elite team until you have elite players.

There is so much denial in this forum. This comment is a great example.

How have the Bulldogs signed Addo Carr, Tevita, and Burton then?

They do not have an elite team. What about the Titans signing Tino and Fifita? Did they have an elite team?

There are more factors at play here. Our location, our lack of success (3 finals in 21 years), our inability to locate and keep talent, our shit house facilities, our disregard of campbelltown, a lack of identity etc etc etc

If I was an NRL player right now, with my love of the Tigers, and had an option of the Tigers or any one else, I would not go to this club. It would be career suicide.

I'm not denying anything - we need to coax elite players here, but I'm just acknowledging it's difficult, especially with the shit the club has brought upon itself over the last 20 years.
But whilst doing that, we need to develop from within as well, and the last 18-24 months is the first time in a long time that we've actually managed to pull in some promising youngsters from further afield. Some of these are already proving their worth, and others will hopefully do so in due course.
It's not enough, but at least we're going in the right direction, and clearing the extremely low bar previously set.

As for those you've mentioned - Fifita went to the GC as close to, if not the highest paid player in the game, and Tino went there to be closer to home.
Regarding the Dogs guys, Burton was effectively a Laurie level signing with a bit more exposure, Foxx went for huge money, especially as a winger, and theres a thousand pages on the TPJ stuff.
We absolutely need to do better in this space - absolutely no doubt. But these guys will pop up pretty regularly. It's only really Mitchell and McInnes that I'm upset that we missed out on, the latter in particular given it was a sideways move, and it's still a position of need.

Hopefully the current team goes on a bit of a run over the remainder of the season to show that we're building towards something. Obviously will be great to make the 8, but also to show prospective players that there's something there.
But there'll be plenty of opportunities to pick up quality players between now and rd 1, 2022. We need to get it right.

 

[GarryOwen]

The recruitment has been a bit of a shambles for almost the whole existence of the club tbh. We had a couple of good crops that wielded results, but even then we've only had three finals series (albeit we won a comp and could/should have won another).

Since 2011 the club has gone from panic move to panic move, resulting in lots of failed short term moves. Who can forget old mate Grant Mayer speculating that we'd make a GF in the mid 2010s?

I am a bit more confident in the club's direction over the last year or two. We've made some shrewd buys for the first time in a while, and some very promising youngsters on top of that. There have still been mis-steps (e.g. BJ) but I can at least see what we're building towards now. Hopefully we continue along that route in picking up these young guys and developing them into frontline FGers.

Of course, we'll still need to recruit elite players on top of that. The COE should help - I can't imagine the current/past facilities have sold the club very well.
But it's the old conundrum: you can't sign elite players until you have an elite team. And you can't have an elite team until you have elite players.

There is so much denial in this forum. This comment is a great example.

How have the Bulldogs signed Addo Carr, Tevita, and Burton then?

They do not have an elite team. What about the Titans signing Tino and Fifita? Did they have an elite team?

There are more factors at play here. Our location, our lack of success (3 finals in 21 years), our inability to locate and keep talent, our shit house facilities, our disregard of campbelltown, a lack of identity etc etc etc

If I was an NRL player right now, with my love of the Tigers, and had an option of the Tigers or any one else, I would not go to this club. It would be career suicide.

I'm not denying anything - we need to coax elite players here, but I'm just acknowledging it's difficult, especially with the shit the club has brought upon itself over the last 20 years.
But whilst doing that, we need to develop from within as well, and the last 18-24 months is the first time in a long time that we've actually managed to pull in some promising youngsters from further afield. Some of these are already proving their worth, and others will hopefully do so in due course.
It's not enough, but at least we're going in the right direction, and clearing the extremely low bar previously set.

As for those you've mentioned - Fifita went to the GC as close to, if not the highest paid player in the game, and Tino went there to be closer to home.
Regarding the Dogs guys, Burton was effectively a Laurie level signing with a bit more exposure, Foxx went for huge money, especially as a winger, and theres a thousand pages on the TPJ stuff.
We absolutely need to do better in this space - absolutely no doubt. But these guys will pop up pretty regularly. It's only really Mitchell and McInnes that I'm upset that we missed out on, the latter in particular given it was a sideways move, and it's still a position of need.

Hopefully the current team goes on a bit of a run over the remainder of the season to show that we're building towards something. Obviously will be great to make the 8, but also to show prospective players that there's something there.
But there'll be plenty of opportunities to pick up quality players between now and rd 1, 2022. We need to get it right.

Further to the above, I don't think the home ground thing is an issue in the slightest. Plenty of teams play out of multiple grounds - they don't seem to care.
The training facilities are a far bigger issue, but that's being sorted out as we know.

 

[TigerTone]

The recruitment has been a bit of a shambles for almost the whole existence of the club tbh. We had a couple of good crops that wielded results, but even then we've only had three finals series (albeit we won a comp and could/should have won another).

Since 2011 the club has gone from panic move to panic move, resulting in lots of failed short term moves. Who can forget old mate Grant Mayer speculating that we'd make a GF in the mid 2010s?

I am a bit more confident in the club's direction over the last year or two. We've made some shrewd buys for the first time in a while, and some very promising youngsters on top of that. There have still been mis-steps (e.g. BJ) but I can at least see what we're building towards now. Hopefully we continue along that route in picking up these young guys and developing them into frontline FGers.

Of course, we'll still need to recruit elite players on top of that. The COE should help - I can't imagine the current/past facilities have sold the club very well.
But it's the old conundrum: you can't sign elite players until you have an elite team. And you can't have an elite team until you have elite players.

There is so much denial in this forum. This comment is a great example.

How have the Bulldogs signed Addo Carr, Tevita, and Burton then?

They do not have an elite team. What about the Titans signing Tino and Fifita? Did they have an elite team?

There are more factors at play here. Our location, our lack of success (3 finals in 21 years), our inability to locate and keep talent, our disregard of campbelltown, a lack of identity etc etc etc

If I was an NRL player right now, with my love of the Tigers, and had an option of the Tigers or any one else, I would not go to this club.

Tigers are the last Sydney club you'd choose. No home ground, no identity, it's not prime area to live, there's really nothing much there to attract people off the field let alone our decade of failure and drama. This is why we need to win games and make finals because we are behind other clubs in those other areas.


There are only 2 possible reasons we can’t get our player to sign on, you’ve mentioned one, the players don’t see the club as a reputation building club. A club with no home ground. Every time I think about that, it leads me to believe that the club’s administration just don’t get it.
The other reason could be, simply that our negotiating team simply don’t have the skill to close the deal? Now this is more likely the case considering that we are often the front runners for the signature.

I don’t believe the “no home ground” thing is an issue for players as much as it is for some fans, players will play where ever they are told, I would have thought?

I think the negotiation team is fine imo, we have a policy of not going over a value we have put on a players worth, other clubs put that worth higher than us. There is a long way to go to next season, I would be confident that the recruitment team have other players in there sights, so all is not lost.


Sure the players will play wherever, but having a home offers another inspirational level. If it didn’t then the other 15 clubs would follow the WT lead and have no home ground. Not having a home ground sends a message of instability and lack of longevity, it’s an integral part of the WT story.
There is a huge difference in having other players in their sights and actually signing players. They get deep into discussions, then decide to move in a different direction. Other clubs seem to be more focussed on achieving their goals.




The club has to make the decision if staying with a strategy that was initiated over 20yrs ago when the club was formed or moving forward now the entity is owned by one . Until the truth of the situation is laid bare nothing will change the failure will continue.
This club is not a joint venture club anymore and there is no need to play out of multiple grounds , this club is owned by ONE entity and therefore should have one home ground this is the reality of the situation this is the truth ,board members should face the facts of the situation it’s called leadership and this club really needs some !
GIVE US A HOME!

GIVE US A BREAK, not having one home ground is not the reason we are in our current predicament.
Edit: BTW, if we went to one ground, which one would you choose?

If we went to one home ground it would have to be neither Leichhardt or Campbelltown to maintain the spirit of a joint venture.
Even if you dispute that it's still a joint venture the fact is that Wests own 90% so Leichhardt as a sole home ground is out of the question.
Campbelltown just doesn't seem to have the supporter base any more, so it's out.
Which only leaves Homebush or Parra's home ground.
So nobody would be happy

Wests own 90% , i think Leichhardt would have to be most profitable out of the two.
And this is coming from someone who goes to both campbelltown and leichhardt on game days.

 

[Crucible]

Leichhardt for Balmain Supporters and Tamworth for Wests Supporters !!!!!! Where we play is irrelevant. If we are winning ,I'll go to Balranald.....But we will never be a winning team until we stop shooting ourselves in the foot and that starts with the Chairman. Lee keep out of Recruitment.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

The recruitment has been a bit of a shambles for almost the whole existence of the club tbh. We had a couple of good crops that wielded results, but even then we've only had three finals series (albeit we won a comp and could/should have won another).

Since 2011 the club has gone from panic move to panic move, resulting in lots of failed short term moves. Who can forget old mate Grant Mayer speculating that we'd make a GF in the mid 2010s?

I am a bit more confident in the club's direction over the last year or two. We've made some shrewd buys for the first time in a while, and some very promising youngsters on top of that. There have still been mis-steps (e.g. BJ) but I can at least see what we're building towards now. Hopefully we continue along that route in picking up these young guys and developing them into frontline FGers.

Of course, we'll still need to recruit elite players on top of that. The COE should help - I can't imagine the current/past facilities have sold the club very well.
But it's the old conundrum: you can't sign elite players until you have an elite team. And you can't have an elite team until you have elite players.

There is so much denial in this forum. This comment is a great example.

How have the Bulldogs signed Addo Carr, Tevita, and Burton then?

They do not have an elite team. What about the Titans signing Tino and Fifita? Did they have an elite team?

There are more factors at play here. Our location, our lack of success (3 finals in 21 years), our inability to locate and keep talent, our disregard of campbelltown, a lack of identity etc etc etc

If I was an NRL player right now, with my love of the Tigers, and had an option of the Tigers or any one else, I would not go to this club.

Tigers are the last Sydney club you'd choose. No home ground, no identity, it's not prime area to live, there's really nothing much there to attract people off the field let alone our decade of failure and drama. This is why we need to win games and make finals because we are behind other clubs in those other areas.

The inner west is a highly desirable area in which to live. Balmain, Glebe, Leichhardt, Ashfield and Strathfield just to name a few good suburbs.

But you don't have to live where you play, not since the 70's so it doesn't matter?

There are those who live in Balmain and those who wish they could.

Used to be true. I loved Balmain growing up, envied the Wayne Pearce story more than anything. But I walk around now and don't really like the place. I was there last week and I thought how I was sort of glad we merged with wests because at least we're geographically connected to a community I'm proud the club represents. That's not Balmain anymore. Beautiful by the water and all, but the bankers and lawyers and marketing people are turning the suburb into double bay with their spiffy renovations and audis. Place has lost its character.

I grew up in Balmain and loved every second of it, when asked at the time, where you lived, you said Balmain, the reply would be "Oh! from the slums eh!"

Have been back quite a few times over the years and watched it deteriorate at an alarming rate. that is to say after the "Trendies" moved in, now the "Wankers" and "Would be's if they could be's."

I return even less now - most of the people who live there now are pretty much selfish, for themselves types, very few Tigers supporters in the area.

If you were in trouble in the old days, people would come from everywhere to help - now they would leave you on the footpath bleeding and go home to sit on their verandah and drink their Chardonnay.

How the mighty suburb has fallen.

A mate of mine lives about 40-50 steps from the Mary St gate. He loves the club. Just because it's an affluent area, doesn't mean people don't follow the club.

 

[barra]

Recruitment does need a win though.
Lift our morale and give us some hope.

At this stage if we just swapped Garner and got rid of mbye and BJ I’d be much more chipper

I dont know what garners problem is, he was improving rapidly the start of this year, after a dissapointing 2020, now he is meh

His form in 2019 was amazing

Maybe he's not totally happy? There was talk of him going to Manly and maybe that's what he wanted... in any case, we need to upgrade him as he certainly appears to have hit his ceiling with us. TPJ would have been a great upgrade.

 

[Celtic_Tiger]

Our valuations are not realistic. It’s all very noble saying we won’t pay overs but any player is worth what a given club is willing to pay him.

You've only just glanced off the depth of this possibility.

Firstly, no, any player is not worth what a given club is willing to pay him. Ben Hunt is not worth a reported million bucks, neither is Milford.

But to the valuations - it may be possible that our valuations are realistic, but we are simply in a dangerous market against more desperate or reckless clubs.

It's like the Sydney housing market - I don't think anyone thinks house prices in Sydney are good value, but go to any auction and there are a hundred idiots throwing money at property.

Now maybe you just need to join the idiots and throw cash at the problem, or maybe you stick to your budget and play the long game. I would argue that Tigers have already had significant experience throwing cash at roster issues, and it has worked out badly. They are choosing a different approach under the restrictions of a salary cap.

Because if we are talking high-profile targets, it distills to a pretty clear scenario - we have only lost out to Bulldogs and Souths recently? If Tigers were interested in Latrell, JAC, Jai Arrow and TPJ, they either went to Wayne Bennett, or huge cash offers from the Bulldogs.

I personally don't think it's wise to try and compete with Bulldogs, because they truly appear to be bringing out the chequebook for any notable player on the market, and applying very blunt strokes to address their own problems. Have Bulldogs signed a decent half to pair with Burton? No. Have they signed a decent hooker? No. Have they ironed out their preferred fullback? No. Have they got any decent juniors? I haven't really seen them, maybe this Biondi fellow, and Averillo is worth persisting with.

Have any of the Bulldogs 2019-2021 signings come good? No not really; actually it's been a bit of a horror show - Meaney, Allan, Napa, Flanagan, Britt, Stimson, Jesse Sue, Christian Crichton, Jack Cogger, DWZ, Foran, Hetherington, Tim Lafai, Cotric, Corey Waddell, Sione Katoa. All average to terrible signings. Pass mark maybe for Luke Thompson.

Actually any player is worth what a given club is willing to pay him. West Tigers might think tpj is worth 600k per year but he is actually worth 2.2 over three years that is what the dogs have paid for him

So Mbye is worth $850k

There's a difference between worth and value for money and when trying to recruit players the players worth is dictated by the market for that player.

Any player acquisition comes with risk.

For example, most people who say that Kalyn Ponga was worth the contract Knights gave him but if he had done an ACL in his first week and or didn't develop they way he has they wouldn't. What they are really referring to is value for money.

Regardless of the either scenario he was worth what they paid him as that's the price the market set to sign him.

 

[tigerballs]

Brandon Smith is off contract 2022 when we are able WT'S should throw an offer to him up to a Max 1.1m a season say 4 year deal by that time Packers gone Mbyes gone.
Harry Grant maybe Storms starting hooker by then with Smith peed off if we pushed hard enough may get him for 2022

agree Brandon Smith needs to be the big target

Nope. Brandon Smith needs to stay at Melbourne or go to the Roosters or his days winning comps are over unless he goes to somewhere on under which nobody does.

No player of his quality goes to another club and wins a comp. I literally mapped it out in the posts above.

We only get Brandon Smith on roster crippling overs. The only reason you make a signing like that is if you are just that desperate to make the finals and get mopped up week 1 just so we can say we finally made it there.

Palmer, you are far and away the most sensible bloke in the whole forum. What the hell are you doing here?

 

[tigerballs]

The recruitment has been a bit of a shambles for almost the whole existence of the club tbh. We had a couple of good crops that wielded results, but even then we've only had three finals series (albeit we won a comp and could/should have won another).

Since 2011 the club has gone from panic move to panic move, resulting in lots of failed short term moves. Who can forget old mate Grant Mayer speculating that we'd make a GF in the mid 2010s?

I am a bit more confident in the club's direction over the last year or two. We've made some shrewd buys for the first time in a while, and some very promising youngsters on top of that. There have still been mis-steps (e.g. BJ) but I can at least see what we're building towards now. Hopefully we continue along that route in picking up these young guys and developing them into frontline FGers.

Of course, we'll still need to recruit elite players on top of that. The COE should help - I can't imagine the current/past facilities have sold the club very well.
But it's the old conundrum: you can't sign elite players until you have an elite team. And you can't have an elite team until you have elite players.

There is so much denial in this forum. This comment is a great example.

How have the Bulldogs signed Addo Carr, Tevita, and Burton then?

They do not have an elite team. What about the Titans signing Tino and Fifita? Did they have an elite team?

There are more factors at play here. Our location, our lack of success (3 finals in 21 years), our inability to locate and keep talent, our disregard of campbelltown, a lack of identity etc etc etc

If I was an NRL player right now, with my love of the Tigers, and had an option of the Tigers or any one else, I would not go to this club.

Tigers are the last Sydney club you'd choose. No home ground, no identity, it's not prime area to live, there's really nothing much there to attract people off the field let alone our decade of failure and drama. This is why we need to win games and make finals because we are behind other clubs in those other areas.

The inner west is a highly desirable area in which to live. Balmain, Glebe, Leichhardt, Ashfield and Strathfield just to name a few good suburbs.

But you don't have to live where you play, not since the 70's so it doesn't matter?

There are those who live in Balmain and those who wish they could.

Used to be true. I loved Balmain growing up, envied the Wayne Pearce story more than anything. But I walk around now and don't really like the place. I was there last week and I thought how I was sort of glad we merged with wests because at least we're geographically connected to a community I'm proud the club represents. That's not Balmain anymore. Beautiful by the water and all, but the bankers and lawyers and marketing people are turning the suburb into double bay with their spiffy renovations and audis. Place has lost its character.

I grew up in Balmain and loved every second of it, when asked at the time, where you lived, you said Balmain, the reply would be "Oh! from the slums eh!"

Have been back quite a few times over the years and watched it deteriorate at an alarming rate. that is to say after the "Trendies" moved in, now the "Wankers" and "Would be's if they could be's."

I return even less now - most of the people who live there now are pretty much selfish, for themselves types, very few Tigers supporters in the area.

If you were in trouble in the old days, people would come from everywhere to help - now they would leave you on the footpath bleeding and go home to sit on their verandah and drink their Chardonnay.

How the mighty suburb has fallen.

Take it easy Russell, I was born in Balmain hospital and still live there now. It's still a great place to live but you are on the money about the trendies and the wankers. I suppose a bonus is I don't have to fight my way out of the Bald Rock or the Unity Hotel any more. That said, when the Tigers were going well in the Sheens years, the buzz around when they were playing at Leichhardt was unbelievable. The streets were full of Black and Gold and everyone was keen to go to the games. Even the trendies and wankers love the Tigers!