Salary Cap Rorting | Ideas on a Potential Solution

[newtiger]

I found out the other day that Group 10 has a point system in place to even up the competition, to stop the larger cities of Bathurst and Orange buying all the best players and basically buying a comp.
The smaller town get 2 extra points per season over the bigger cities.
Points are allocated to players on a varied scale eg: Ex NRL players Group players etc and it works really good.
Can’t see why it wouldn’t work in the NRL as well, except the powerbrokerd wouldn’t like it as it evens up the competition.

 

[magpiecol]

From the NRL's website:

**What players can earn outside the salary cap:**

**_Unlimited - Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club and who do not use the game's intellectual property (no club logos, jerseys or emblems) provided these are pre-approved by both a Player’s Club and the NRL. These agreements may not be negotiated by the club as an incentive for a player to sign a contract, nor can they be guaranteed by the club._**

It's common knowledge that the clubs doing well have corporate "friends" that will top up a player's salary. No amount of policing or penalties will level the playing field as long as this happens.

The best we could hope for is a draft, but Terry Hill ruined the chances of that back in the 90s.

Dennis Tutty.

 

[sheer64]

Did the Rorters have Ferguson on their books for $150k this season? No rorting here, nothing to see!

 

[Harvey]

Stand the players down for the length of the dodgy contract.

The full value of that contract is included in the clubs cap despite the player not being available and not being paid.

Any manager involved is banned for 10 years minimum.

The club has their cap reduced by at least twice the breach amount.

The NRL will not register a contract for any player the club signs from outside their system for at least 5 years.

2-10 points taken for up to 5 years.

Board sacked and banned.

CEO and anyone else with knowledge sacked, deregistered and banned.

Basically leave the club as a basket case for the next 5 years at least.

 

[jadtiger]

From the NRL's website:

**What players can earn outside the salary cap:**

**_Unlimited - Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club and who do not use the game's intellectual property (no club logos, jerseys or emblems) provided these are pre-approved by both a Player’s Club and the NRL. These agreements may not be negotiated by the club as an incentive for a player to sign a contract, nor can they be guaranteed by the club._**

It's common knowledge that the clubs doing well have corporate "friends" that will top up a player's salary. No amount of policing or penalties will level the playing field as long as this happens.

The best we could hope for is a draft, but Terry Hill ruined the chances of that back in the 90s.

Dennis Tutty.

it was Terry Hill that destroyed the draft Tutty had retired well before it came in

 

[2041]

Paul Kent made a really good point last night

Every Salary cap system that works is linked to a draft system

Obviously the punishments need to be far harsher , as he said when Carlton in the AFL got done in 2002 it took them 6 years to make the finals after the punishments were invoked

It's taken the Tigers seven (and counting) and we didn't even get busted for anything.

 

[2041]

_**2\. PLAYERS**_

* Fines up to $100,000 or up to the breach amount
\

* Suspension of up to 3 months
\

* Cancellation of contract and must play with another club

I'm not a contract lawyer, but I'm guessing putting financial penalties on players might be hard to do. The clubs are the ones that have the salary cap agreement with the competition, and it would be hard to argue that it's a player's responsibility to ensure that their employer is compliant with that agreement. I'm sure there have been players that "know" their top-up payments are dodgy, especially when you're talking about literal brown envelopes full of cash, but again it's not the players that have the responsibility for the way a club runs its business.

In addition, outside of the cap there's nothing actually illegal about players receiving payments from third parties (assuming they declare them for tax and so forth - and even that would between the player, his accountant and the ATO, nothing to do with the NRL). If Nick Politis's mates want to take James Tedesco golfing and chuck him $20,000 for his time, that's not an issue so far as the law is concerned. That puts the comp in very dubious legal territory when it comes to penalising players because there would be all sorts of issues around restraint of trade, unfair dismissal and so forth.

I'm also guessing the NRL is very cautious about punishing players for this sort of stuff anyway, especially given the big cap-breach scandals started when there was a very live threat from the UK, rugby etc. The threat of losing your livelihood because you've taken a few extra quid here and there would be a pretty big incentive to sign for a rival comp or code.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

From the NRL's website:

**What players can earn outside the salary cap:**

**_Unlimited - Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club and who do not use the game's intellectual property (no club logos, jerseys or emblems) provided these are pre-approved by both a Player’s Club and the NRL. These agreements may not be negotiated by the club as an incentive for a player to sign a contract, nor can they be guaranteed by the club._**

It's common knowledge that the clubs doing well have corporate "friends" that will top up a player's salary. No amount of policing or penalties will level the playing field as long as this happens.

The best we could hope for is a draft, but Terry Hill ruined the chances of that back in the 90s.

Dennis Tutty.

Tutty was the residency rule, Hill was the draft.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

_**2\. PLAYERS**_

* Fines up to $100,000 or up to the breach amount
\

* Suspension of up to 3 months
\

* Cancellation of contract and must play with another club

I'm not a contract lawyer, but I'm guessing putting financial penalties on players might be hard to do. The clubs are the ones that have the salary cap agreement with the competition, and it would be hard to argue that it's a player's responsibility to ensure that their employer is compliant with that agreement. I'm sure there have been players that "know" their top-up payments are dodgy, especially when you're talking about literal brown envelopes full of cash, but again it's not the players that have the responsibility for the way a club runs its business.

In addition, outside of the cap there's nothing actually illegal about players receiving payments from third parties (assuming they declare them for tax and so forth - and even that would between the player, his accountant and the ATO, nothing to do with the NRL). If Nick Politis's mates want to take James Tedesco golfing and chuck him $20,000 for his time, that's not an issue so far as the law is concerned. That puts the comp in very dubious legal territory when it comes to penalising players because there would be all sorts of issues around restraint of trade, unfair dismissal and so forth.

I'm also guessing the NRL is very cautious about punishing players for this sort of stuff anyway, especially given the big cap-breach scandals started when there was a very live threat from the UK, rugby etc. The threat of losing your livelihood because you've taken a few extra quid here and there would be a pretty big incentive to sign for a rival comp or code.

Good points, a different perspective there.

Reporting them to the ATO is probably the only real threat there, assuming they are not declaring it.

 

[Cairnstigers]

Sack Greenberg
Put someone in with big🏐🏐

 

[Donald_Trump]

Where there is a will, there is a way.

As long as club's are willing to rort the system, they will find ways to do so.

The best way to counter this is by making the punishment so severe that clubs, players, and player managers will be so scared of being caught that they won't engage in under the table deals.

Clubs-
Fining them 10x the amount of the illegal benefit paid, and an automatic deduction of points, say 4 points for every $100,000.00 they are over the cap, would be a great start. Also a permanent life ban of any club official found complicit in the matter would be enough to deter most club personnel from taking part.

Players-
Fining players the amount of the illegal benefit, and suspending them for a period equal to the illegal benefit they received, would make sure that all players declare every cent of cash and non cash payment they received form clubs.

Player Managers-
A life ban from representing NRL players if their client is found to have benefited from illegal benefits.

All of the above is easily enforced if the club, player, and manager each have to sign a stat dec provided to the NRL declaring all direct and indirect benefits a player is receiving from the club. Anything outside of what has been signed off on is met with the above punishment.

As I say, if you’re not cheating, you’re not trying

 

[yeti]

From the NRL's website:

**What players can earn outside the salary cap:**

**_Unlimited - Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club and who do not use the game's intellectual property (no club logos, jerseys or emblems) provided these are pre-approved by both a Player’s Club and the NRL. These agreements may not be negotiated by the club as an incentive for a player to sign a contract, nor can they be guaranteed by the club._**

It's common knowledge that the clubs doing well have corporate "friends" that will top up a player's salary. No amount of policing or penalties will level the playing field as long as this happens.

The best we could hope for is a draft, but Terry Hill ruined the chances of that back in the 90s.

Dennis Tutty.

Tutty was the residency rule, Hill was the draft.

Dennis Tutty took the NSWRL to court over the Transfer fees clubs put in place on players who had finished their contracts. Prior to his stance, if a player wanted to go to another club - even after his contract had ended - that club was able to impose a transfer fee that the new club had to pay. He actually sat out the '69 season - the year Balmain won the Grand Final. He said it was the only time he actually cried due to anything related to footy. Every player that has played since that time owes Tutty a debt of gratitude.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

From the NRL's website:

**What players can earn outside the salary cap:**

**_Unlimited - Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club and who do not use the game's intellectual property (no club logos, jerseys or emblems) provided these are pre-approved by both a Player’s Club and the NRL. These agreements may not be negotiated by the club as an incentive for a player to sign a contract, nor can they be guaranteed by the club._**

It's common knowledge that the clubs doing well have corporate "friends" that will top up a player's salary. No amount of policing or penalties will level the playing field as long as this happens.

The best we could hope for is a draft, but Terry Hill ruined the chances of that back in the 90s.

Dennis Tutty.

Tutty was the residency rule, Hill was the draft.

Dennis Tutty took the NSWRL to court over the Transfer fees clubs put in place on players who had finished their contracts. Prior to his stance, if a player wanted to go to another club - even after his contract had ended - that club was able to impose a transfer fee that the new club had to pay. He actually sat out the '69 season - the year Balmain won the Grand Final. He said it was the only time he actually cried due to anything related to footy. Every player that has played since that time owes Tutty a debt of gratitude.

Ah OK. I thought it was to do with residency as well. I.e. you could not play for another area unless the area you resided released you. Seems sort of what you're talking about in a roundabout way. Unless where you're resided just happened to be who you generally played for back in the day.

 

[weststigers]

From the NRL's website:

**What players can earn outside the salary cap:**

**_Unlimited - Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club and who do not use the game's intellectual property (no club logos, jerseys or emblems) provided these are pre-approved by both a Player’s Club and the NRL. These agreements may not be negotiated by the club as an incentive for a player to sign a contract, nor can they be guaranteed by the club._**

It's common knowledge that the clubs doing well have corporate "friends" that will top up a player's salary. No amount of policing or penalties will level the playing field as long as this happens.

The best we could hope for is a draft, but Terry Hill ruined the chances of that back in the 90s.

Wow…

Club says “no room on the jersey for sponsorship, but why not have a chat with x player. They might be interested and you’ll get your brand up on the big screen every time they run into the field”

The sponsor isn’t associated with the club, so it’s a free reign!

Smaller sponsers with no naming rights would lap this up.

 

[weststigers]

_**2\. PLAYERS**_

* Fines up to $100,000 or up to the breach amount
\

* Suspension of up to 3 months
\

* Cancellation of contract and must play with another club

I'm not a contract lawyer, but I'm guessing putting financial penalties on players might be hard to do. The clubs are the ones that have the salary cap agreement with the competition, and it would be hard to argue that it's a player's responsibility to ensure that their employer is compliant with that agreement. I'm sure there have been players that "know" their top-up payments are dodgy, especially when you're talking about literal brown envelopes full of cash, but again it's not the players that have the responsibility for the way a club runs its business.

In addition, outside of the cap there's nothing actually illegal about players receiving payments from third parties (assuming they declare them for tax and so forth - and even that would between the player, his accountant and the ATO, nothing to do with the NRL). If Nick Politis's mates want to take James Tedesco golfing and chuck him $20,000 for his time, that's not an issue so far as the law is concerned. That puts the comp in very dubious legal territory when it comes to penalising players because there would be all sorts of issues around restraint of trade, unfair dismissal and so forth.

I'm also guessing the NRL is very cautious about punishing players for this sort of stuff anyway, especially given the big cap-breach scandals started when there was a very live threat from the UK, rugby etc. The threat of losing your livelihood because you've taken a few extra quid here and there would be a pretty big incentive to sign for a rival comp or code.

If that was the case, I’d argue that salary cap rorting is on par with match fixing.

It’s about the integrity of sport in this country and should be covered under the same laws as match fixing laws.

Fines, contract cancellations and criminal proceedings should not be off the table.

 

[weststigers]

Why cant the NRL introduce a system along the lines of Super Coach or a points rated system if a players value increases during the year he stays on his original value until his contract expires if he wishes to opt out of his contract the present value kicks in could stop the current situation were players are kept on book figures proped up by TPA s a committee could be formed to assess player values with no input from the players club.

I think what would flush out the hidden payments is if the NRL enforced a rule where:

* Players must go to the highest bidding club.

Loyalty would be dead, but the rorting would stop.

Perhaps put salary cap concessions in place for each year a player stays with the club to avoid a merry-go-round each year.

 

[prattenparkchild]

I'm sick of hearing about the innocent players. In the past- players signing 2 x contracts with one a false one for the front office, underhand payments directly to players in envelopes aside from their regular paid into bank account salaries. PLayer managers signing players names and then later when something blows up the player says thats not my signature. Thats all illegal methods now punishable by courts and tax investigators.

Yes, player managers are under the gun now, but players have to be made accountable now too. Theyre potentially as complicit as the clubs and player managers.

 

[gallagher]

I'm sick of hearing about the innocent players. In the past- players signing 2 x contracts with one a false one for the front office, underhand payments directly to players in envelopes aside from their regular paid into bank account salaries. PLayer managers signing players names and then later when something blows up the player says thats not my signature. Thats all illegal methods now punishable by courts and tax investigators.

Yes, player managers are under the gun now, but players have to be made accountable now too. Theyre potentially as complicit as the clubs and player managers.

Absolutely. If one player gets suspended for the duration of their contract for cheating and this all ends straight away.

 

[2041]

_**2\. PLAYERS**_

* Fines up to $100,000 or up to the breach amount
\

* Suspension of up to 3 months
\

* Cancellation of contract and must play with another club

I'm not a contract lawyer, but I'm guessing putting financial penalties on players might be hard to do. The clubs are the ones that have the salary cap agreement with the competition, and it would be hard to argue that it's a player's responsibility to ensure that their employer is compliant with that agreement. I'm sure there have been players that "know" their top-up payments are dodgy, especially when you're talking about literal brown envelopes full of cash, but again it's not the players that have the responsibility for the way a club runs its business.

In addition, outside of the cap there's nothing actually illegal about players receiving payments from third parties (assuming they declare them for tax and so forth - and even that would between the player, his accountant and the ATO, nothing to do with the NRL). If Nick Politis's mates want to take James Tedesco golfing and chuck him $20,000 for his time, that's not an issue so far as the law is concerned. That puts the comp in very dubious legal territory when it comes to penalising players because there would be all sorts of issues around restraint of trade, unfair dismissal and so forth.

I'm also guessing the NRL is very cautious about punishing players for this sort of stuff anyway, especially given the big cap-breach scandals started when there was a very live threat from the UK, rugby etc. The threat of losing your livelihood because you've taken a few extra quid here and there would be a pretty big incentive to sign for a rival comp or code.

If that was the case, I’d argue that salary cap rorting is on par with match fixing.

It’s about the integrity of sport in this country and should be covered under the same laws as match fixing laws.

Fines, contract cancellations and criminal proceedings should not be off the table.

You've missed the point.

Match fixing is something a player does for themselves. It breaks a contract with the player's employer, which presumably contains clauses about integrity and appropriate effort.

The difference is that complying with the salary cap is a club's responsibility, not a player's. For one thing, it would be very hard to prove that a player knows that money they take that would otherwise be legal is in fact outside the cap. The NRL doesn't have the right to demand players' tax returns, and even if it did it would struggle to prove that amount X was paid to player Y for playing for club Z rather than just for services rendered unrelated to the game.

Even if the NRL is pretty damn certain a player or players knew they were being paid outside the cap, as I say the player(s) would have a decent case if they sued the NRL, because it's not up to them to ensure clubs are cap compliant.

It's all well and god talking tough about player penalties for cap breaches, but in practice it would be much harder to do than you think. There's a reason why the NRL has never gone after players.

 

[2041]

Why cant the NRL introduce a system along the lines of Super Coach or a points rated system if a players value increases during the year he stays on his original value until his contract expires if he wishes to opt out of his contract the present value kicks in could stop the current situation were players are kept on book figures proped up by TPA s a committee could be formed to assess player values with no input from the players club.

I think what would flush out the hidden payments is if the NRL enforced a rule where:

* Players must go to the highest bidding club.

Loyalty would be dead, but the rorting would stop.

Perhaps put salary cap concessions in place for each year a player stays with the club to avoid a merry-go-round each year.

Also impossible; this would be a clear restraint of trade. The NRL doesn't have absolute power to ignore employment law. If I want to take less money to live and work in Bondi because the extra $5,000 I'v been offered doesn't seem enough to compensate for having to live in Canberra that should be up to me.

It also doesn't account for TPAs, which are legal according to the rules of the game. If a company wants to give a player $300,000 a year but says it's only worthwhile to them if the player is, say, a Rabbitoh rather than a Cowboy should that count towards the blanket rule of "go to whoever offers most money"? If the Cowboys are offering $500,000 a year and Souths are offering $400,000 a year, surely the player should be able to consider what additional value he might get from signing the lesser contract?