Seyfarth

[pawsandclaws1]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

I do understand, and for a grade 2, it's a minimum of 4 weeks not 2-4 weeks. I'm not blaming a physio or a coach or S&C co-ordinator. It was a collective decision which was wrong. No one is going to be fired over it, but someone does need to be held accountable.

If it is 4 weeks, can you imagine a medical professional giving him clearance after 2 weeks? I cannot especially with only a couple of games left in the season. Someone really needs to be disciplined.

 

[Madge]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

I do understand, and for a grade 2, it's a minimum of 4 weeks not 2-4 weeks. I'm not blaming a physio or a coach or S&C co-ordinator. It was a collective decision which was wrong. No one is going to be fired over it, but someone does need to be held accountable.

If it is 4 weeks, can you imagine a medical professional giving him clearance after 2 weeks? I cannot especially with only a couple of games left in the season. Someone really needs to be disciplined.

I thought he came back after 5 weeks?

 

[TillLindemann]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

I do understand, and for a grade 2, it's a minimum of 4 weeks not 2-4 weeks. I'm not blaming a physio or a coach or S&C co-ordinator. It was a collective decision which was wrong. No one is going to be fired over it, but someone does need to be held accountable.

If it is 4 weeks, can you imagine a medical professional giving him clearance after 2 weeks? I cannot especially with only a couple of games left in the season. Someone really needs to be disciplined.

I thought he came back after 5 weeks?

Yeah but facts don't matter, let's pile in on the club and accuse them of medical negligence regardless!

 

[Kelce68]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

Do you think it would have been more sensible to focus on getting himself 100% right instead? There was no upside to having him play yesterday, only downside.

I think he would have been 100% right for him to have been cleared to play.

So the heavy strapping from groin to ankle was for show or confidence? It looked like he could not change direction.

It was not strapping from groin to ankle. It was a medial ligament cross strap as a precaution for a player returning from a medial strain.

Standard procedure in ALL rehab. It does not affect lateral movement, if anything, it may stop a degree or two of knee extension, meaning the hamstring mightve been a little sore after the game.

 

[Telltails]

Questions have to be asked of the medical staff for clearing him to play here.

Hope he is fit and healthy before pre-season. He is quite critical along with Stefano and Blore for our forward stocks next year.

I trust the medical staff would put all injured players through a series of tests before medically clearing them to play - and would not put themselves or the players at risk if they did not pass by allowing them to take the field

I trust them too, infact our injury rates this year have been awesome. However, the fact stands that this was rushed with no upside. MCL re-injury rates are pretty high, or a significant injury to affected or unaffected knee. Just because you have passed the physical tests doesn't always mean you're ready. Again, we aren't professionals but we have to think that there should be some type of questions asked.

I have no knowledge or facts to presume or question anything, other than to believe the club have people in place to manage injuries, with medical knowledge and procedures that are followed and assessed before clearing a player fit to play.

 

[Kelce68]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

I do understand, and for a grade 2, it's a minimum of 4 weeks not 2-4 weeks. I'm not blaming a physio or a coach or S&C co-ordinator. It was a collective decision which was wrong. No one is going to be fired over it, but someone does need to be held accountable.

I am a physio. That is incorrect.

 

[tig_prmz]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

I do understand, and for a grade 2, it's a minimum of 4 weeks not 2-4 weeks. I'm not blaming a physio or a coach or S&C co-ordinator. It was a collective decision which was wrong. No one is going to be fired over it, but someone does need to be held accountable.

I am a physio. That is incorrect.

I'm a physio too mate. As far as I know the latest guidelines are Grade 1= 2 weeks, Grade 2= 2 weeks locked from 30-90 in ROM brace and then rehab (min 2 weeks).. Grade 3 can be anything as we all know.

But your or I credentials are irrelevant as Kenny etc are doing a good job (as mentioned previously). As I said, questions need to be raised and someone needs to be held accountable- I didn't say that fire someone over it. Because this decision was proved to be wrong.

 

[JC99]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

I do understand, and for a grade 2, it's a minimum of 4 weeks not 2-4 weeks. I'm not blaming a physio or a coach or S&C co-ordinator. It was a collective decision which was wrong. No one is going to be fired over it, but someone does need to be held accountable.

I am a physio. That is incorrect.

I'm a physio too mate. As far as I know the latest guidelines are Grade 1= 2 weeks, Grade 2= 2 weeks locked from 30-90 in ROM brace and then rehab (min 2 weeks).. Grade 3 can be anything as we all know.

But your or I credentials are irrelevant as Kenny etc are doing a good job (as mentioned previously). As I said, questions need to be raised and someone needs to be held accountable- I didn't say that fire someone over it. Because this decision was proved to be wrong.

It's not a coincidence he did the exact same injury on the exact same knee. Clearly wasn't ready to play again, sure it's a bit unlucky but with our season over and a game we were always losing why even bother playing him? Literally no point in him running out there, should've just let him recover and played it safe

 

[Snake]

Another off season he is going to kill it next season can feel it .. a great on field attitude!

 

[Kelce68]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

I do understand, and for a grade 2, it's a minimum of 4 weeks not 2-4 weeks. I'm not blaming a physio or a coach or S&C co-ordinator. It was a collective decision which was wrong. No one is going to be fired over it, but someone does need to be held accountable.

I am a physio. That is incorrect.

I'm a physio too mate. As far as I know the latest guidelines are Grade 1= 2 weeks, Grade 2= 2 weeks locked from 30-90 in ROM brace and then rehab (min 2 weeks).. Grade 3 can be anything as we all know.

But your or I credentials are irrelevant as Kenny etc are doing a good job (as mentioned previously). As I said, questions need to be raised and someone needs to be held accountable- I didn't say that fire someone over it. Because this decision was proved to be wrong.

Yeh, that's fair enough, but as you'd well know, reinjury is not indicative of functional capacity of a rehabbed joint. This injury, from what I can see, was an impact mechanism of injury, not a stability issue.

If this was soft tissue, then, yep, I agree.

It's more bad luck than anything.

 

[jirskyr]

However, the fact stands that this was rushed with no upside.

I'm afraid that isn't a fact.

 

[hank37w]

A little off topic, but while some physios are about the place, anyone know what the story is with Zane Musgrove?

 

[Kelce68]

A little off topic, but while some physios are about the place, anyone know what the story is with Zane Musgrove?

Last I heard it was a lisfranc? But I can't confirm as the club haven't given a lot of updates.

Lisfranc's can be anything is terms of time frames, but up to and including 12 months. If that's indeed what he suffered earlier this year, then it's not surprising we haven't heard anything for a long time.

 

[Kelce68]

A little off topic, but while some physios are about the place, anyone know what the story is with Zane Musgrove?

Last I heard it was a lisfranc? But I can't confirm as the club haven't given a lot of updates.

Lisfranc's can be anything is terms of time frames, but up to and including 12 months. If that's indeed what he suffered earlier this year, then it's not surprising we haven't heard anything for a long time.

To confirm, from the club's official release mid - July, conservative treatment has been unsuccessful and he was due to undergo surgery mid august. Where that stands with COVID is anyone's guess as he remained in Sydney and orthopaedic surgeries are off the table (so to speak) atm.

It will then be a full rehab protocol from there, presuming it is a lisfranc after all.

 

[hank37w]

Thanks for that.
Was just consulting Dr Google to learn something about it.

 

[tig_prmz]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

I do understand, and for a grade 2, it's a minimum of 4 weeks not 2-4 weeks. I'm not blaming a physio or a coach or S&C co-ordinator. It was a collective decision which was wrong. No one is going to be fired over it, but someone does need to be held accountable.

I am a physio. That is incorrect.

I'm a physio too mate. As far as I know the latest guidelines are Grade 1= 2 weeks, Grade 2= 2 weeks locked from 30-90 in ROM brace and then rehab (min 2 weeks).. Grade 3 can be anything as we all know.

But your or I credentials are irrelevant as Kenny etc are doing a good job (as mentioned previously). As I said, questions need to be raised and someone needs to be held accountable- I didn't say that fire someone over it. Because this decision was proved to be wrong.

Yeh, that's fair enough, but as you'd well know, **reinjury is not indicative of functional capacity of a rehabbed joint.** This injury, from what I can see, was an impact mechanism of injury, not a stability issue.

If this was soft tissue, then, yep, I agree.

It's more bad luck than anything.

Lots of recent research would argue against that mate, but that's more of a physio discussion.

 

[Kelce68]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

I do understand, and for a grade 2, it's a minimum of 4 weeks not 2-4 weeks. I'm not blaming a physio or a coach or S&C co-ordinator. It was a collective decision which was wrong. No one is going to be fired over it, but someone does need to be held accountable.

I am a physio. That is incorrect.

I'm a physio too mate. As far as I know the latest guidelines are Grade 1= 2 weeks, Grade 2= 2 weeks locked from 30-90 in ROM brace and then rehab (min 2 weeks).. Grade 3 can be anything as we all know.

But your or I credentials are irrelevant as Kenny etc are doing a good job (as mentioned previously). As I said, questions need to be raised and someone needs to be held accountable- I didn't say that fire someone over it. Because this decision was proved to be wrong.

Yeh, that's fair enough, but as you'd well know, **reinjury is not indicative of functional capacity of a rehabbed joint.** This injury, from what I can see, was an impact mechanism of injury, not a stability issue.

If this was soft tissue, then, yep, I agree.

It's more bad luck than anything.

Lots of recent research would argue against that mate, but that's more of a physio discussion.

I should rephrase, I mean it is not necessarily indicative. Meaning it may be the cause, but is not necessarily the cause. Particularly with a common mcl MOA, lateral impact. But yeh, these topics can be good fun to break down over a couple of beers.

 

[tig_prmz]

There was nothing reckless about him playing.

He was cleared following a legitimate rehab protocol and testing regime for the appropriate amount of time for an MCL (2-4 weeks for a Grade 2). The mechanism of reinjury was an accident and had nothing to do with the ligament not being sufficiently rehabbed. He would have been functionally sound for the clearance to go ahead.

Stop throwing ridiculous pejoratives at people on the staff when you don't understand the basics of the this type of process.

I do understand, and for a grade 2, it's a minimum of 4 weeks not 2-4 weeks. I'm not blaming a physio or a coach or S&C co-ordinator. It was a collective decision which was wrong. No one is going to be fired over it, but someone does need to be held accountable.

I am a physio. That is incorrect.

I'm a physio too mate. As far as I know the latest guidelines are Grade 1= 2 weeks, Grade 2= 2 weeks locked from 30-90 in ROM brace and then rehab (min 2 weeks).. Grade 3 can be anything as we all know.

But your or I credentials are irrelevant as Kenny etc are doing a good job (as mentioned previously). As I said, questions need to be raised and someone needs to be held accountable- I didn't say that fire someone over it. Because this decision was proved to be wrong.

Yeh, that's fair enough, but as you'd well know, **reinjury is not indicative of functional capacity of a rehabbed joint.** This injury, from what I can see, was an impact mechanism of injury, not a stability issue.

If this was soft tissue, then, yep, I agree.

It's more bad luck than anything.

Lots of recent research would argue against that mate, but that's more of a physio discussion.

I should rephrase, I mean it is not necessarily indicative. Meaning it may be the cause, but is not necessarily the cause. Particularly with a common mcl MOA, lateral impact. But yeh, these topics can be good **fun to break down over a couple of beers.**

What do you think I can do in my free time :nerd_face:

 

[tig_prmz]

However, the fact stands that this was rushed with no upside.

I'm afraid that isn't a fact.

It is. Even the medical department would agree.

We are assuming this was a Grade 2 which as I mentioned requires at least 2 weeks in a brace. How much running, sprinting, change of direction, impact training and proprioception training do you think Alex had time to do within possibly 6 sessions with the team in 2-3 weeks?

Yes if you're a wonderful trainer, do night and day rehab- it may be possible. But I don't think he would have done more than 2 contact sessions with the team. Passing protocols is sometimes not that hard.

Again, the medical staff would have learnt from this and let's see how they handle the next major injury. Lids was rehabbed by Peter Moussa then Kenny and Gray. The high performance team and S&C team although must have done a great job since we've been very good with injuries this year.

Luck isn't a massive factor with injuries... not just soft tissues, even ligament injuries or impact injuries. There is a reason they happen usually late in the game when you're fatigued.

Anyway rant over, let's see how they manage the next one. Gray has had a bit of "grey" in him from his day at the Sharks from what I have heard though.

 

[Kelce68]

However, the fact stands that this was rushed with no upside.

I'm afraid that isn't a fact.

It is. Even the medical department would agree.

We are assuming this was a Grade 2 which as I mentioned requires at least 2 weeks in a brace. How much running, sprinting, change of direction, impact training and proprioception training do you think Alex had time to do within possibly 6 sessions with the team in 2-3 weeks?

Yes if you're a wonderful trainer, do night and day rehab- it may be possible. But I don't think he would have done more than 2 contact sessions with the team. Passing protocols is sometimes not that hard.

Again, the medical staff would have learnt from this and let's see how they handle the next major injury. Lids was rehabbed by Peter Moussa then Kenny and Gray. The high performance team and S&C team although must have done a great job since we've been very good with injuries this year.

Luck isn't a massive factor with injuries... not just soft tissues, even ligament injuries or impact injuries. There is a reason they happen usually late in the game when you're fatigued.

Anyway rant over, let's see how they manage the next one. Gray has had a bit of "grey" in him from his day at the Sharks from what I have heard though.

It should also be noted that his reinjury came in the first 2 minutes of the second half, following the half-time break, so I think it would be a long bow to draw to argue that fatigue played a factor in this injury, particularly given Alex started from the bench and didn't get on until well after the 20 minute mark.

Whilst this issue is just about wrapped up discussion-wise, it should be noted, that Sunday's game represented 5 weeks to the day (24th July) that Seyfarth injured his MCL originally.

That is foreseeably plenty of time for return to play, **depending** on the nature of the Grade 2 and his progress of rehab. To sit out the final two games simply as a precaution is an option, but return to play protocols are in place for a reason. They are based on the literature. So if he meets those requirements and the season is still to be played out, him playing is 100% within normal, and importantly - responsible, protocols.