Should we scream at the WT's with our wallets in 2020

[the_scene]

Pacoe's performance on 360 was fine. He clearly explained our process for managing the cap which involves the coach, the head of football and the CEO. They also have a moneyball type stats guru who provides advice on performance and valuations.

As Pascoe stated Cleary was 1.5 years into a 4 year contract. Every coach should be allowed some leeway to shape the squad to their choosing. The contracts we offered to Reynolds, Packer , Matoulino were not deemed massive overs at the time. Many on the forum supported these signings.

We now have a new coach who has his own ideas about how he wants the team to play and the players he needs to achieve his style. I personally believe Madge is doing a good job and believe he is the coach to take us forward.

We are hamstrung by the current squad, but we are still performing decently. There is light at the end of the tunnel with plenty of cap space available in 2021. That said from all reports Madge does not use this as an excuse and expects the team to make the finals. I am excited to see the club head in the direction of signing and bringing through young talent. I also look forward to us being in a position to attract quality signings for the 2021 season.

 

[jirskyr]

@happy_tiger said in [Should we scream at the WT's with our wallets in 2020](/post/1027420):
>I’ve quite regularly in the past sent emails to the club and coaches voicing my issues with the club …and if I pull my membership I will let them know …I’ve even mentioned to the club to read the Forums and see what the opinions of the fans are

I'm glad you email the club (truly, not sarcastically), but question is what the club actually does about it. Do they keep a big pile of negative email, sort it into appropriate baskets and then collate the metrics to present to the Board?

"Good news everyone, we are 12% down this quarter on emails with anti-CEO messages, and 4% down on "I'm cancelling my membership because of XYZ" text messages".

Or in other words, how does the club sort out your specific concerns from all the noise? By all means, shout, placard, demonstrate - it's a public right and may make you feel better. I am reminded of those folks who went down to the HQ to protest against Robbie Farah being ousted and it even made the news, but did it really do anything?

I am sure the club does read the forum, but also the forum is just a fraction of the total supporter base and it's not very scientific or statistically valid to read text and try to ascribe some summary outcome of the "vibe" of the place.

So if you, happy, cancel your membership, that's one of about 20,000 persons. I doubt very much they'll ascribe a "reason for cancel", but you never know. If 1,000 people cancel, maybe that's normal or maybe Tigers get concerned.

If 10,000 people cancel, well now we're talking. But probably at that stage the singular "reason" is unclear and instead it becomes a KPI for the CEO - to figure out why the numbers are down and fix it, or be sacked.

Is that what you are after? What outcome gets your membership continued? Guaranteed ongoing success? Sack the CEO? Does sacking really fix anything at all? Does Pascoe need to specifically acknowledge and apologise to fans because he hired a bloke who backstabbed the club? If he apologises, does that make everything else ok?

 

[jirskyr]

Who cares …how about admitting he was your choice …you were undermining the current coach 3 months before Taylor was sacked to gte Ivan here
And then you fail to ask arguably the most important question to YOUR mate and YOUR choice that costs us probably many millions of dollars once this mess is finally over
Then we have Farahgate …you can argue that we were able to cover the salary cap fine and still recruit Robert Jennings …but who could we have brought in if we weren’t dealing with this stupid oversight , I’ve no idea what we paid for Jennings , but we may have put ourselves in a great position to have brought possibly Drinkwater …who knows

I still don't get the big deal here, though you are not alone in your thoughts. Yes Cleary was Pascoe's choice, obviously, but also he was the Board's choice too. Should we remove the Board because Ivan Cleary deserted us? Was Cleary actually a bad coach, or just a bad an unpredictable outcome?

Are we possibly in a better position now with Maguire and, if so, isn't that also Pascoe's choice? Does Pascoe get -1 for Cleary and +1 for Maguire, so neutral outcome?

What if Tigers win a comp in the next 4-5 years under Madge, and then we look back and realise the only reason we got Madge was because Cleary backstabbed us? Or to put it on another club, what if Souths win the comp under Bennett, who only became head coach because Seibold back-stabbed Souths?

"The Question" - is that about Nate Cleary? Do you truly believe that you can ask a coach and father, who is signing on in April 2017, whether his son is going to join in 2020 (i.e. two and a half years later)? Do you make that a selection criterion? "Ah how many NRL-quality sons do you have and when will they join Tigers?"

Do you really think it's appropriate to negotiate employment with someone for the position of head coach and start discussing the long-term future of their son? Do you even think Ivan Cleary would agree to discuss the future of his son, a grown and independent man of his own right?

And finally, how do you even know that it wasn't discussed? Because Pascoe said so on television? You think Pascoe is going to reveal the actual content of hiring discussions with Ivan Cleary?

I don't get it, who cares if Pascoe and Ivan discussed Nathan during the interview? They had 2.5 years to figure that out.

Farahgate - yep that's on Pascoe but let's all say out loud what we already agree, that it was a technical over-reaction from NRL that does not seem consistent with their other rulings, e.g. Greg Inglis.

Or to put it another way, I'm not surprised Pascoe made a mistake with the possible Farah offer, considering it actually never was signed off and the NRL's draconian reaction to what they deem fair or otherwise. Navigating the "current rules" as set by NRL must be a never-ending quagmire of politics, "asking the right people" and phoning up the Salary Cap Help Desk to ask for advice "Is this ok? What about this? What about if we do this AND this?"

Pascoe got in trouble for not disclosing a possible though unconfirmed deal that everyone already knew about. It would be like NASA getting in trouble from Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon in a year from now, for not making it clear to him that Mars was actually quite far away.

No - Farahgate was complete BS in my opinion and we only accepted responsibility on the back of significantly reduced penalties against the cost and pain of going to court. Ultimately, it's very hard to fight against the NRL for sanctions imposed by the NRL under rules inducted by the NRL. At some point you accept a lesser penalty and move on.

 

[Tiger_Steve]

Guess it far easier to follow @Geo method .....stick your head in the sand..... and hope we somehow in the next 20 seasons we stumble onto a magic wand or a Jeannie's bottle perhaps

lol..Iv'e said 3 times now if people think your proposal will work and magically turn things around go for it..I'm telling you it won't make one bit of difference to those running the Club or the decisions that they make...

We aren't travelling to bad ATM as it is on the field still have the destiny in our own hands with half a season to go

Maybe just have a Bex and a good lie down you might feel better..

If the club lost 1 in say 4 members they wouldn't care ....is that what your saying

Thanks for exactly making my point Geo .....

Yep ..Membership is a very very small part of financial bottom line...

What you should do is tell the Corprates to start withdrawing their support you might get somewhere then...

I'll give you the prime example the Rorters...they would be lucky to receive 1/10th of 1/5th in membership...lucky to get 3 men and a Rooster to most of their home games until finals roll around ..could not give two hoots if the have members or not..

If you would upset their Corprates watch what would change in the blink of an eye..

Geo 1

Happy 0
?

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

It's also a possibility (actually, closer to a certainty,) that when Madge accepted the job he made it clear that the current squad would not play finals football under him and he'd need the ability to offload players. Bennett would have made the same demands if he signed here. Any coach worth their salt would have come here, looked at the roster and said "Yeah, nah. This needs work, I'll need to be able to make changes." Otherwise we're back to the Potter/JT bargain basement buys for mediocre return.

I'm not going to listen to politician speak on FoxSports and conclude that they have their heads in the sand. I'd be more concerned if Pascoe airs our dirty laundry on air.

I would be hoping now that Pascoe has returned that things will right again for the club. He was suspended and Go departed in close proximity and since then the place has returned to it's old ways.

 

[Snake]

Happy it is good to feel the passion and good for you to raise the concerns of many .. I personally know many Tiger supporters that are not happy with the governance of our club these are the silent majority. Year after year nothing changes still the same mistakes time after time .. it is interesting that the general consensus is how Big Baza a failed politician could be given the Chairman’s roll.If there ever was a decision made by this board that vindicates us the silent majority in starting to question them this was it !
Pascoe last night added we should be able to add to our roster in 2021 what the heck ... these people know no bounds in treating us supporters as fools ,Pascoe should be shown the door immediately he was one of the main instigators that has cost the club salary cap issues and uncertainty and now talks with a straight face saying up yours supporters !...it will be a couple of seasons before it gets any better . Good luck to you Pascoe lovers he would be at Centrelink if I had my way ! Well Happy you are not alone mate there are many that want change and soon !

 

[Zach]

I also look forward to us being in a position to attract quality signings for the 2021 season.

thats TWO years away......

All good seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, but far out, we as fans should NEVER be put into a position where we have to wait for yearly cycles of when we can actually perform and compete as a club. its a disgrace.

having said that, i think that fundamentally we are clearly a very unattractive club to many players, and until we sort that perception out, it doesn't matter how good are cap will be in the future.

 

[happy_tiger]

modules:composer.user_said_in, @the_scene, [Should we scream at the WT's with our wallets in 2020](/post/1027445)
Pacoe's performance on 360 was fine. He clearly explained our process for managing the cap which involves the coach, the head of football and the CEO. They also have a moneyball type stats guru who provides advice on performance and valuations.

As Pascoe stated Cleary was 1.5 years into a 4 year contract. Every coach should be allowed some leeway to shape the squad to their choosing. The contracts we offered to Reynolds, Packer , Matoulino were not deemed massive overs at the time. Many on the forum supported these signings.

We now have a new coach who has his own ideas about how he wants the team to play and the players he needs to achieve his style. I personally believe Madge is doing a good job and believe he is the coach to take us forward.

We are hamstrung by the current squad, but we are still performing decently. There is light at the end of the tunnel with plenty of cap space available in 2021. That said from all reports Madge does not use this as an excuse and expects the team to make the finals. I am excited to see the club head in the direction of signing and bringing through young talent. I also look forward to us being in a position to attract quality signings for the 2021 season.

A good footballer is a good footballer no matter who the coach is, amazingly enough many adapt to many different coaches

Cleary signings were good , but they needed to be surrounded by the right players ....Reynolds doesn't suit Brooks , Packer was arguably a Top 5 prop when he signed from the Saints ,Matulino was going to be a massive risk coming off an ACL surgery

Madge surely should be able to get the same level of performance out of these players if he has the man management skills

Pascoe has made many errors in the job and must be on very shaky ground and yesterday didn't fill me with confidence

When you are asked about our next premiership and you don't answer .....really

 

[Strider]

We are still miles of the beginning of tunnel, then its going to be a very long stretch from there =/

 

[TrueTiger]

@Snake If Pascoe is shown the door he will be no different to the previous CEOs,Noyce,Mayer in particular deserved to get the boot because of their ineptness at that level and as business managers..Pascoe has done very well compared to the others and we showed that we can trade in the black with hard work..people try to blame him for everything that happens..to me he has been hoodwinked by IC and he was suspended on a technicality if what has been said is true re.Robbie..
Other than that he is trying to do his best within an organisation that has been poorly managed for years..
Before you and others tar me as a Pascoe lover..Im not..I see things for what they are,not what people want to see...yes we do appear stuck between a rock and a hard place,but,Pascoe and this board along with recruitment and coaching have to be given the chance with a clean slate to get us in a competative platform for years to come,its not easy or as quick as some would like but it can happen..if we finish the season off well then 20/21 will be good years for us...
The club will get my wholehearted support as always.....no one knows the future and we can only travel along the road to get to where we need to be,there will be potholes and hurdles as in life itself...but we should never quit ...we should become stronger not weaker...:v:

 

[the_scene]

@Zach

I also look forward to us being in a position to attract quality signings for the 2021 season.

thats TWO years away......

All good seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, but far out, we as fans should NEVER be put into a position where we have to wait for yearly cycles of when we can actually perform and compete as a club. its a disgrace.

having said that, i think that fundamentally we are clearly a very unattractive club to many players, and until we sort that perception out, it doesn't matter how good are cap will be in the future.

I agree that we shouldn't be in this position of needing to rebuild again. However I blame this purely on the last coach. He was building his own roster with players who suited him, offering them enticing deals to get them to sign on with a club who had just lost 3 of their 4 superstars. Please note that an enticing deal isn't necessarily a negligent deal. Clubs in our position have to pay a little bit more to entice players of a certain caliber.

The only reason we are going through this again is because Ivan walked out on us. If Madge has a different game plan and values different attributes in certain positions then it is his prerogative to manage the roster in order to build the squad that he needs to achieve results playing his brand of football.

 

[gallagher]

We are still miles of the beginning of tunnel, then its going to be a very long stretch from there =/

I fear the tunnel is just a long deep hole.

 

[kiwitiger]

We are still miles of the beginning of tunnel, then its going to be a very long stretch from there =/

I fear the tunnel is just a long deep hole.

I'm starting to think it's just a long drop. However deep we go we just find more effluent

 

[kiwitiger]

@Snake If Pascoe is shown the door he will be no different to the previous CEOs,Noyce,Mayer in particular deserved to get the boot because of their ineptness at that level and as business managers..Pascoe has done very well compared to the others and we showed that we can trade in the black with hard work..people try to blame him for everything that happens..to me he has been hoodwinked by IC and he was suspended on a technicality if what has been said is true re.Robbie..
Other than that he is trying to do his best within an organisation that has been poorly managed for years..
Before you and others tar me as a Pascoe lover..Im not..I see things for what they are,not what people want to see...yes we do appear stuck between a rock and a hard place,but,Pascoe and this board along with recruitment and coaching have to be given the chance with a clean slate to get us in a competative platform for years to come,its not easy or as quick as some would like but it can happen..if we finish the season off well then 20/21 will be good years for us...
The club will get my wholehearted support as always.....no one knows the future and we can only travel along the road to get to where we need to be,there will be potholes and hurdles as in life itself...but we should never quit ...we should become stronger not weaker...:v:

What did noyce do that was so bad? I remember he went to the roosters but can't remember what mess he left behind.
Other question is are we only in the black because of the payment for ic? Being in the black because someone pocketed your coach is not really an achievement

 

[mike]

Love your passion @happy_tiger. I don’t agree with you but love your passion.

 

[gallagher]

@Snake If Pascoe is shown the door he will be no different to the previous CEOs,Noyce,Mayer in particular deserved to get the boot because of their ineptness at that level and as business managers..Pascoe has done very well compared to the others and we showed that we can trade in the black with hard work..people try to blame him for everything that happens..to me he has been hoodwinked by IC and he was suspended on a technicality if what has been said is true re.Robbie..
Other than that he is trying to do his best within an organisation that has been poorly managed for years..
Before you and others tar me as a Pascoe lover..Im not..I see things for what they are,not what people want to see...yes we do appear stuck between a rock and a hard place,but,Pascoe and this board along with recruitment and coaching have to be given the chance with a clean slate to get us in a competative platform for years to come,its not easy or as quick as some would like but it can happen..if we finish the season off well then 20/21 will be good years for us...
The club will get my wholehearted support as always.....no one knows the future and we can only travel along the road to get to where we need to be,there will be potholes and hurdles as in life itself...but we should never quit ...we should become stronger not weaker...:v:

What did noyce do that was so bad? I remember he went to the roosters but can't remember what mess he left behind.
Other question is are we only in the black because of the payment for ic? Being in the black because someone pocketed your coach is not really an achievement

Good questions.

 

[jadtiger]

@kiwitiger Noyce was the one who stated to go set the timers and lit the fuse with backended long term contracts putting pressure on our cap.It was his culpabiliity which forced Fulton to be cast aside to ESL for a season.It is worth noting that every organisation i believe Noyce moved to also removed him out of the club before the end of his contract.
He was certainly not the only CEO to stuff it up with us but he was the one who started it

 

[hammertime]

The coach is gone and so is the head of football, those are the two that should be held accountable for the roster for the most part.

Pascoe has managed to bring us to profit, fix the back loaded cap situation and get the funding to build a very expensive COE, without us having any substantial cash reserves or backing. All govt grants. That's an amazing feat.

I'm firmly on pascoes side. Anyone who thinks instability is better for the club right now, and those feats above shouldn't be rewarded, must be as thick as mud.

 

[hobbo1]

Bring back Humphrys

 

[happy_tiger]

@Zach

I also look forward to us being in a position to attract quality signings for the 2021 season.

thats TWO years away......

All good seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, but far out, we as fans should NEVER be put into a position where we have to wait for yearly cycles of when we can actually perform and compete as a club. its a disgrace.

having said that, i think that fundamentally we are clearly a very unattractive club to many players, and until we sort that perception out, it doesn't matter how good are cap will be in the future.

I agree that we shouldn't be in this position of needing to rebuild again. However I blame this purely on the last coach. He was building his own roster with players who suited him, offering them enticing deals to get them to sign on with a club who had just lost 3 of their 4 superstars. Please note that an enticing deal isn't necessarily a negligent deal. Clubs in our position have to pay a little bit more to entice players of a certain caliber.

The only reason we are going through this again is because Ivan walked out on us. If Madge has a different game plan and values different attributes in certain positions then it is his prerogative to manage the roster in order to build the squad that he needs to achieve results playing his brand of football.

If you blame the coach , you have to blame the person who hired the coach as well

Same way the coach cops it if the players aren't mentally ready for a game , both are responsible