Sick of the all the Ref bashing.

G

Goose

New member
I am sick to death of the lack of respect in our game for referees in general.

The commentators, the coaches and the players all treat the refs and their decisions abysmally.

Firstly, the game of rugby league and its rules were not designed to be adjudicated in slow motion by 30 odd cameras, to get around this we have made rods for our backs, trying to come up with consistent interpretations that differentiate all the areas of grey that exist in our game.

Secondly the coaches manipulate every advantage they can get, looking for loop holes and pushing boundaries, and permanently operate in the grey further exaggerating our need for guidelines and interpretations that ties us down to a ruling, that can be further exploited and pushed. Then complain about the refs rulings. The coaching who drive these interpretation mostly cant agree themselves on how it should work, mainly due the them trying to get a competitive advantage.

Then the inconsistency of what they all want (commentators, coachs and fans) all saying the refs need to use common sense and discretion and then next minute we need consistency from our refs,all we want is consistent decisions. It cant be both!

And due to the above we are creating infinitely smaller things that are ok and not ok as the boundaries are permanently being pushed and then clarified, they just cant win.

Then we harp on every decision. AFL and Rugby, both businesses of winning and losing have just as many mistakes, players never question the refs, coaches never talk about the decisions and call back radio rarely worries about it. Other games just seem to get on with and accept that there is grey in rules, things will be missed and over the course of a game or season it levels out, not in rugby league.

We have created a terrible culture in Rugby league where we have players at refs all game, being very demonstrative at times and than complain if the ref doesnt treat them with respect…..they havent respected refs in years.

The way that Hasler and Toovey talk about refs in particular is a disgrace. The NRL should fine anyone that uses the ref as an excuse.

For a game that claims to be the greatest of all, we spend a fair bit of time complaining about it.

2 rants in one day, not normally my style!
 
Wow Goose, for someone whose posts I look forward to reading I dont find much to agree with in this. The standard of refereeing is a blight on the game, nothing less. You have guys on and off the field that bust their guts to win games of footy, and time and again they see their efforts despatched down the drain by dodgy refereeing decisions.

I think the problem is not so much with the individual referees as with the whole refereeing structure. I will provide one example and it crops up in every single game and that is the stripping penalty. How many stripping penalties have you seen awarded over the past 5 years when there was clearly no intended strip? 150? 200? Many more? I have no idea but it is a massive number. Watching a replay on television, it is obviously easier to assess whether there has been an intended strip. But nevertheless, the indisputable approach of referees is to assume there has been a strip. There is no other explanation for the large number of penalties blown where it is blindingly obvious that no intentional strip has occurred. It seems that all too often a referee is unsited, sees a ball on the ground, panics and blows a penalty assuming there has been a strip. A penalty these days is almost a "one in three chance" of 6 points; its gold. And yet they are handed out willy nilly on non strips, more often than not when the attacking player has simply made an error!

Now back to my high level view as to where the problem is. It should be a simple, almost kindergarten matter for the director of referees (what is the official title?) to instruct referees that no penalty for strip can be blown unless they are sure and certain that they saw a strip and that it was intentional. Why has this not occurred?

There are other areas of the game where similar problems exist - forward passes being one example. And yet nothing happens and the farce continues.

Sorry Goose, I have some sense of what goes in to turning out elite athletes, as NRL players are and to see all that effort burned on incorrect decisions is something that sits very poorly with me. The ambition of the NRL should be perfection in refereeing decisions. Whilst that will obviously never be achieved, I think a process of continuous improvement is preferable to excusing, or at the least simply accepting the current situation.
 
They don't deserve the respect at the moment with poor pathetic and biased inconsistent calls.

I will support them as far as they shouldn't be physically touched but that's where I will stop.

NRL refs are of poor and inconsistent level. well most of them going around currently
 
The powers that be have allowed coaches to degenerate respect to it's current low point. The calling players by name should be stopped immediately for mine, and the wishy washy approach to players talking back to or touching officials really annoys me. Touch a ref and you should be sent and/or suspended, no exception.
 
Well, if the refs reduced the amount of blatantly wrong decisions and if the bunker was able to make calls with a bit of logic and maybe make calls on forward passes…..............there would be less ref bashing.

With the amount of technology available, I'm sure many struggle with the sheer amount of extremely wrong calls that are going on.
 
@PYMBLEPETE said:
Wow Goose, for someone whose posts I look forward to reading I dont find much to agree with in this. The standard of refereeing is a blight on the game, nothing less. You have guys on and off the field that bust their guts to win games of footy, and time and again they see their efforts despatched down the drain by dodgy refereeing decisions.

I think the problem is not so much with the individual referees as with the whole refereeing structure. I will provide one example and it crops up in every single game and that is the stripping penalty. How many stripping penalties have you seen awarded over the past 5 years when there was clearly no intended strip? 150? 200? Many more? I have no idea but it is a massive number. Watching a replay on television, it is obviously easier to assess whether there has been an intended strip. But nevertheless, the indisputable approach of referees is to assume there has been a strip. There is no other explanation for the large number of penalties blown where it is blindingly obvious that no intentional strip has occurred. It seems that all too often a referee is unsited, sees a ball on the ground, panics and blows a penalty assuming there has been a strip. A penalty these days is almost a "one in three chance" of 6 points; its gold. And yet they are handed out willy nilly on non strips, more often than not when the attacking player has simply made an error!

Now back to my high level view as to where the problem is. It should be a simple, almost kindergarten matter for the director of referees (what is the official title?) to instruct referees that no penalty for strip can be blown unless they are sure and certain that they saw a strip and that it was intentional. Why has this not occurred?

There are other areas of the game where similar problems exist - forward passes being one example. And yet nothing happens and the farce continues.

Sorry Goose, I have some sense of what goes in to turning out elite athletes, as NRL players are and to see all that effort burned on incorrect decisions is something that sits very poorly with me. The ambition of the NRL should be perfection in refereeing decisions. Whilst that will obviously never be achieved, I think a process of continuous improvement is preferable to excusing, or at the least simply accepting the current situation.
Click to expand...

How can the refs get it right?

the example you gave is a ripper. when it comes to the stripping. This rule and interpretations have been continually refined and the gap between a strip and loose carry is almost nothing.

The video scrutiny means we get a look at it from 20 angles in slow motion. Which means that we have to define exactly what is and isnt a strip. (In the old days if it looked like a strip it was strip, and the blokes on the hill cheered or booed depending if it went for or against but couldnt tell)

So define a strip? Define a loose carry? We tried that and put in indicators? Playing at the ball versus preventing promotion, and a heap of others, there was 3 indicators that decided whether it was a ripping motion! The players and coaches worked out how to push these limits, and we scrutinise every decision trying to pick out the ever so subtle differences between each in slow mo….. I read a ref guides (given to coaches one pre-season) on how things would be determined with all the key indicators and they were enormous and ridiculous trying to identify the difference between things such as a loose carry and strip. Obstruction is harder (and made deliberate more so by coaches pushing limits of acceptable).

The whole issue is that rules were not made to reffed how we now view the game, and we harp on every decision.

AFL players and Rugby Players get just as many bad calls, and it is just important to their careers if they win or lose, yet they never talk about, never complain and get on with the game.

They don't scrutinise to the level we do.

I know a coach who spent some time working with the refs, in one 15 minute conversation he changed my whole view on refereeing. He showed my what the coaches requested for the rules, seemed (fair enough)

Then asked me to watch 6 incidents and tell me what I thought. Then he showed what the coaches thought. The biggest consensus when 10-6.....

So they put in indicators, extensive, i thought it should make it easier. We dissected each incident with each indicator. It was super hard to differentiate. We were making decisions on each indicator, and couldnt agree.

Then he showed the commentary on the incident of each incident. They were lambasted on all of them. The coaches couldn't agree even with slow mo, angles, the indicators they helped develop. I couldn't even determine if the harm was moving in a different direction to his tackling motion (a key indicator on the strip)

At the end he just said as I have said up front they cant win.

The refs no as much about footy as anyone. We have just put them in a situation that they can not succeed.

As for the not deserving respect, did Cummings run up to hastings and say why didn't you pass it, you should have passed, everyone knows you should have passed it......that is the equivalent of what players and coaches are doing to refs.....would it be ok if that happened??
 
The problem with the refs is mainly because of the NRL

Make things black and white and things will get far easier

But they won't

Because they want the ability to control games and outcomes of games

Everything the NRL does has an end game , some of the endings may not be nice or what the fans want
 
As I said a few weeks ago, some teams the refs and the bunker will do everything they can do find a reason to award a no try and other teams they will do the opposite.

We have lost at least four points this year to howlers, okay the very good sides put these howlers behind them, but we need to get our fair share of fifty fifty calls and all the obvious calls.

I would love to see all replays done at real time, this slowing replays down to frame by frame is crazy. Anyway the NRL hide them behind a iron curtain and we the punters just have to cop everyone of there howlers on the chin.

The whole referring/bunker thing needs a massive overhaul, but Greenberg is just as bad as all the past head honchos.
 
I'm with you Goose. The standard of refereeing in league is just as good (or bad) as it is in union, afl, soccer, nfl etc.

The only difference is that rugby league fans/commentators/media shoot the game in the foot by constantly harping on about how bad the officiating is… It isn't any worse than any other competition!

All these commentators and ex players say how much they love the game, and yet their negative viewpoints are influencing the casual fans to take the same view, thus driving them away from the game.
 
@Goose said:
@PYMBLEPETE said:
Wow Goose, for someone whose posts I look forward to reading I dont find much to agree with in this. The standard of refereeing is a blight on the game, nothing less. You have guys on and off the field that bust their guts to win games of footy, and time and again they see their efforts despatched down the drain by dodgy refereeing decisions.

I think the problem is not so much with the individual referees as with the whole refereeing structure. I will provide one example and it crops up in every single game and that is the stripping penalty. How many stripping penalties have you seen awarded over the past 5 years when there was clearly no intended strip? 150? 200? Many more? I have no idea but it is a massive number. Watching a replay on television, it is obviously easier to assess whether there has been an intended strip. But nevertheless, the indisputable approach of referees is to assume there has been a strip. There is no other explanation for the large number of penalties blown where it is blindingly obvious that no intentional strip has occurred. It seems that all too often a referee is unsited, sees a ball on the ground, panics and blows a penalty assuming there has been a strip. A penalty these days is almost a "one in three chance" of 6 points; its gold. And yet they are handed out willy nilly on non strips, more often than not when the attacking player has simply made an error!

Now back to my high level view as to where the problem is. It should be a simple, almost kindergarten matter for the director of referees (what is the official title?) to instruct referees that no penalty for strip can be blown unless they are sure and certain that they saw a strip and that it was intentional. Why has this not occurred?

There are other areas of the game where similar problems exist - forward passes being one example. And yet nothing happens and the farce continues.

Sorry Goose, I have some sense of what goes in to turning out elite athletes, as NRL players are and to see all that effort burned on incorrect decisions is something that sits very poorly with me. The ambition of the NRL should be perfection in refereeing decisions. Whilst that will obviously never be achieved, I think a process of continuous improvement is preferable to excusing, or at the least simply accepting the current situation.

How can the refs get it right?

the example you gave is a ripper. when it comes to the stripping. This rule and interpretations have been continually refined and the gap between a strip and loose carry is almost nothing.

The video scrutiny means we get a look at it from 20 angles in slow motion. Which means that we have to define exactly what is and isnt a strip. (In the old days if it looked like a strip it was strip, and the blokes on the hill cheered or booed depending if it went for or against but couldnt tell)

So define a strip? Define a loose carry? We tried that and put in indicators? Playing at the ball versus preventing promotion, and a heap of others, there was 3 indicators that decided whether it was a ripping motion! The players and coaches worked out how to push these limits, and we scrutinise every decision trying to pick out the ever so subtle differences between each in slow mo….. I read a ref guides (given to coaches one pre-season) on how things would be determined with all the key indicators and they were enormous and ridiculous trying to identify the difference between things such as a loose carry and strip. Obstruction is harder (and made deliberate more so by coaches pushing limits of acceptable).

The whole issue is that rules were not made to reffed how we now view the game, and we harp on every decision.

AFL players and Rugby Players get just as many bad calls, and it is just important to their careers if they win or lose, yet they never talk about, never complain and get on with the game.

They don't scrutinise to the level we do.

I know a coach who spent some time working with the refs, in one 15 minute conversation he changed my whole view on refereeing. He showed my what the coaches requested for the rules, seemed (fair enough)

Then asked me to watch 6 incidents and tell me what I thought. Then he showed what the coaches thought. The biggest consensus when 10-6.....

So they put in indicators, extensive, i thought it should make it easier. We dissected each incident with each indicator. It was super hard to differentiate. We were making decisions on each indicator, and couldnt agree.

Then he showed the commentary on the incident of each incident. They were lambasted on all of them. The coaches couldn't agree even with slow mo, angles, the indicators they helped develop. I couldn't even determine if the harm was moving in a different direction to his tackling motion (a key indicator on the strip)

At the end he just said as I have said up front they cant win.

The refs no as much about footy as anyone. We have just put them in a situation that they can not succeed.

As for the not deserving respect, did Cummings run up to hastings and say why didn't you pass it, you should have passed, everyone knows you should have passed it......that is the equivalent of what players and coaches are doing to refs.....would it be ok if that happened??
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

What you have said Goose may be all very well, but without the benefit of 20 camera angles, time and again I see a penalty blown and the penalised player hasnt even gone near the ball or the arm carrying. It is pure panic/suspicion. Now that is very very simple to fix, its something that is high profile - Gould and Sterling comment on it almost every match (well until Gould got sick of doing so) and yet nothing along the lines of my simple proposed solution is implemented.
 
My other comment is we have rules in our game and amazingly enough when they are applied and penalties occur the players change their attitudes and mindsets

I reckon any player who know goes down with a head knock obviously looking for a penalty must get a concussion test and if they do it twice in a game miss a week of footy , any contact to the head goes on review , players don't take penalties on the mark they loss possession of the ball , forward passes get penalized Walking off the mark the same

These rules exist still in the game and are totally ignored by the modern ref

The other day I watched a classic match between the Gold Coast Seagulls and the Steelers from 1993

Blatant forward passes were penalized , a deliberate high tackle and a player got sent off , 10 minute sin bin was used , scrum feeds were in the middle of the scrum , players got to scrums in a hurry , players that faked injuries late in the game were ignored and they just moved the ruck

And I bet many who compared both eras of footy would agree that time frame was a better era to watch

King Wally even struck out in the play the ball and got the ball back

Utilize the rules to the full extent for 6 weeks , yeah it will be 6 weeks of crap footy , but the coaches and players will change , because if they don't they become unemployed
 
The refs are crap, there is no hiding from that fact. Enforce the rules of the game for Gods sake- not just when it suits. Have crackdowns on certain rules that last the whole season, not just 2 or 3 weeks like the play the ball with your foot rule.
No surprise the refs are so bad when you see the corrupt, spineless, unaccountable organisation they work for.
 
People bash the refs because they have to attack somebody. NRL and Rugby League in fact is not a fair game.

Think about it. If a ref wanted a certain team to win, he could easily let them hold players down in tackles longer than the other team.

And don't get me started on the draw. The NRL is NOT an equal competition. Every team doesn't play the same teams the same amount of times. Some teams even have more total resting days than others.

And the salary cap…its not transparent. From what we're led to believe, some teams are able to pay their players more due to these so called 'Third Party Agreements', whatever the hell that means.

So yeah, people have to vent their anger about this game's BS somewhere.
 
I do not think any ref goes out there to intentionally rort a side, but there is no doubt some teams for what ever reason seem to get screwed more than others.

Also of course the better teams can survive the odd crappy call, but for a team like ours it becomes the focal point of the loss. We very seldom do we harp on about crappy calls when we win.

My only concern with the refs and the bunker is the cone of silence, they can not be criticised,yet they can be praised. You only ever hear HQ defending them, in my line of work if I made a howler I was suspended on the spot till I went through a investigation and review process. Okay I am not saying we suspend a ref for a bad call but they need to be also accountable
 
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