Signings, Suggestions & Rumours Discussion

[cochise]

Couldn't be more optimistic with the current operations of the club and it's pleasing to see a number of junior talent sign with us, but the reality is that some of these players will eventually become pillars for the team and without the right type of players around them to help show them the ropes, there's a possibility little else will change.
There's only so much that coaching can do.
Look to the GF and it's easy to understand how having that one player with the experience and skills to read and control the game(let alone a group of them) was the biggest difference. Despite Penrith's success with building trust through their combinations in the team and having top tier junior talent, they lacked that player who's a leader and overall winner, at that. Even Roosters did the same with Cronk.
I agree with @bigsiro and we're not crapping on the club and content with the direction but rather saying sometimes having a player with big game experience is a necessity to help the team go up that next level. I'd be more than happy to overspend on these type of players.

In terms or GF experience we still have a few bridesmaids (BJ, Tamou, Mbye, Offahengaue) and we left the Bride at the alter at the and of last year (Benji).
While I agree that experience plays a big part in developing young players, you can't really teach a work ethic.
Not disagreeing just think that experience can be a bit over rated at times, what's important is that everyone is moving in the same direction without distraction.

Why is Tamou a bridesmaid?

Well he was last year, but on second thought he did win with the cows, so I guess he's both...

lol, Maybe he needs a divorce before he can be a bride again.

 

[AdelaideTiger]

Couldn't be more optimistic with the current operations of the club and it's pleasing to see a number of junior talent sign with us, but the reality is that some of these players will eventually become pillars for the team and without the right type of players around them to help show them the ropes, there's a possibility little else will change.
There's only so much that coaching can do.
Look to the GF and it's easy to understand how having that one player with the experience and skills to read and control the game(let alone a group of them) was the biggest difference. Despite Penrith's success with building trust through their combinations in the team and having top tier junior talent, they lacked that player who's a leader and overall winner, at that. Even Roosters did the same with Cronk.
I agree with @bigsiro and we're not crapping on the club and content with the direction but rather saying sometimes having a player with big game experience is a necessity to help the team go up that next level. I'd be more than happy to overspend on these type of players.

In terms or GF experience we still have a few bridesmaids (BJ, Tamou, Mbye, Offahengaue) and we left the Bride at the alter at the and of last year (Benji).
While I agree that experience plays a big part in developing young players, you can't really teach a work ethic.
Not disagreeing just think that experience can be a bit over rated at times, what's important is that everyone is moving in the same direction without distraction.

Why is Tamou a bridesmaid?

Well he was last year, but on second thought he did win with the cows, so I guess he's both...

lol, Maybe he needs a divorce before he can be a bride again.

:hand_with_index_and_middle_fingers_crossed:

 

[hank37w]

Wouldn't care if he was a bigamist, just need to get to the altar.

 

[gallagher]

But I agree with your post …when you continually miss the top talent questions need to be asked and answered …especially if we miss the finals again

Melbourne always miss top talent. I don't see the issue. I'd rather miss out on top talent than overpay for top talent.

No they just always grab the most talented junior and get it right virtually every time .......and then keep them 90% of the time

Someone there has a great eye for identifying junior talent. It's one thing to copy their strategy but have we got the right people identifying the talent ?

It certainly feels like we have. Hartigan is our best signing in a long time

Yes, he does. Would he be the guy identifying juniors?

Combination of madge and him i reckon

It is a combination of Scott Woodward and Hartigan primarily.

I would have thought they'd be across current NRL players and fringe players but would have others looking at juniors. It's a big job for the 2 of them scouring the country for juniors aswell.

That is exactly what they do, the information that Woodward has at his disposal is very deep across the country.

Yes, the info, but is he the talent identifier? Was he the bloke picking the talent for storm?

He is the Recruitment and List Analyst at the Wests Tigers, it is his system that is used to identify the talent that we want to look at. I can explain the process a little more if you want.

Basically I'm asking, is he the guy out there watching a lot of junior football looking at the talent? I understand there's a system used but there still needs to be a guy with an eye for talent.

 

[jrtiger]

But I agree with your post …when you continually miss the top talent questions need to be asked and answered …especially if we miss the finals again

Melbourne always miss top talent. I don't see the issue. I'd rather miss out on top talent than overpay for top talent.

No they just always grab the most talented junior and get it right virtually every time .......and then keep them 90% of the time

Someone there has a great eye for identifying junior talent. It's one thing to copy their strategy but have we got the right people identifying the talent ?

It certainly feels like we have. Hartigan is our best signing in a long time

Yes, he does. Would he be the guy identifying juniors?

Combination of madge and him i reckon

It is a combination of Scott Woodward and Hartigan primarily.

I would have thought they'd be across current NRL players and fringe players but would have others looking at juniors. It's a big job for the 2 of them scouring the country for juniors aswell.

That is exactly what they do, the information that Woodward has at his disposal is very deep across the country.

Yes, the info, but is he the talent identifier? Was he the bloke picking the talent for storm?

He is the Recruitment and List Analyst at the Wests Tigers, it is his system that is used to identify the talent that we want to look at. I can explain the process a little more if you want.

please do, I love this stuff.

 

[AdelaideTiger]

Wouldn't care if he was a bigamist, just need to get to the altar.

That's very big'a you.

 

[cochise]

But I agree with your post …when you continually miss the top talent questions need to be asked and answered …especially if we miss the finals again

Melbourne always miss top talent. I don't see the issue. I'd rather miss out on top talent than overpay for top talent.

No they just always grab the most talented junior and get it right virtually every time .......and then keep them 90% of the time

Someone there has a great eye for identifying junior talent. It's one thing to copy their strategy but have we got the right people identifying the talent ?

It certainly feels like we have. Hartigan is our best signing in a long time

Yes, he does. Would he be the guy identifying juniors?

Combination of madge and him i reckon

It is a combination of Scott Woodward and Hartigan primarily.

I would have thought they'd be across current NRL players and fringe players but would have others looking at juniors. It's a big job for the 2 of them scouring the country for juniors aswell.

That is exactly what they do, the information that Woodward has at his disposal is very deep across the country.

Yes, the info, but is he the talent identifier? Was he the bloke picking the talent for storm?

He is the Recruitment and List Analyst at the Wests Tigers, it is his system that is used to identify the talent that we want to look at. I can explain the process a little more if you want.

Basically I'm asking, is he the guy out there watching a lot of junior football looking at the talent? I understand there's a system used but there still needs to be a guy with an eye for talent.

I'm sure we have some people who do that but that is not our primary method for talent identification.

 

[Magpie1969]

So WT have 3 spots to fill. It appears one spot left for an early Laurie release.

 

[HabboTiger]

I bet these two places will be filled with train and trial players. Leaving one for mid year

 

[JC99]

Don’t forget McDonnell

I’ve heard he was given the boot a few weeks ago. He did pick us up some juniors from bulldogs though


Really??

That’s what I’ve heard, he got moved on apparently.

 

[BAGNF05]

We are not far behind being a very good side in 2022.Somone like Crichton at fullback and Luai at 5/8 along with Laurie would transform the backline.These type of players and a few upgrades from our lower ranks , are what we need and we have the money I,m not suggesting we would be that lucky to get those two. Just 2 quality players and a goalkicker is well within our reach.

I agree we need two high profile recruits who will bring a winning edge and flip the perception. That’s the great challenge facing WT as there arent any available and when they do become available they turn their nose at the club.

Hey BAGS, have a look at players off contract in 2022,there are plenty.And i don't believe that crap that we are less chance then others.Titans,Dogs,and others recruited well and they were not favourable locations not long ago.

I know mate, but look at Xavier Coates as an example. Storm, Titans and Brisbane are in the market, not us. And we’re no given to keep our best winger. For the really elite guys, they just brush us.

How on earth do you know we're not in the market?

I'm positive we are. I'm sure there's a dozen NRL clubs that have spoken to his manager about signing him.

Does his price tag and attitude fit in with how clubs rate his abilities? That's another matter.

Quite simple mate. When we make an offer that players manager goes straight to the media and tells them what we’re offering in order to drive up the price. It’s like clockwork.

That's not necessarily true at all. Only some managers do this and in specific situations.

And making an offer is the second last step in signing a player. There's a lot of work that goes in prior to that point, so just because a club doesn't end up offering a contract doesn't mean they weren't in negotiations with the player and his agent...!

I’m talking about a big fish like Coates/JAC/LM/Jai Arrow, we’ve seen it play out so many times before.

 

[BAGNF05]

Couldn't be more optimistic with the current operations of the club and it's pleasing to see a number of junior talent sign with us, but the reality is that some of these players will eventually become pillars for the team and without the right type of players around them to help show them the ropes, there's a possibility little else will change.
There's only so much that coaching can do.
Look to the GF and it's easy to understand how having that one player with the experience and skills to read and control the game(let alone a group of them) was the biggest difference. Despite Penrith's success with building trust through their combinations in the team and having top tier junior talent, they lacked that player who's a leader and overall winner, at that. Even Roosters did the same with Cronk.
I agree with @bigsiro and we're not crapping on the club and content with the direction but rather saying sometimes having a player with big game experience is a necessity to help the team go up that next level. I'd be more than happy to overspend on these type of players.

You speak so much sense Lauren, it’s not a personal attack on anyone or their methods, it’s an acknowledgment of something within the club that is a problem. You’d hope during the clubs annual review this is being discussed and addressed.

 

[tony soprano]

Don’t forget McDonnell

I’ve heard he was given the boot a few weeks ago. He did pick us up some juniors from bulldogs though


Really??

That’s what I’ve heard, he got moved on apparently.

Wow

He was brought back recently I thought

 

[cochise]

But I agree with your post …when you continually miss the top talent questions need to be asked and answered …especially if we miss the finals again

Melbourne always miss top talent. I don't see the issue. I'd rather miss out on top talent than overpay for top talent.

No they just always grab the most talented junior and get it right virtually every time .......and then keep them 90% of the time

Someone there has a great eye for identifying junior talent. It's one thing to copy their strategy but have we got the right people identifying the talent ?

It certainly feels like we have. Hartigan is our best signing in a long time

Yes, he does. Would he be the guy identifying juniors?

Combination of madge and him i reckon

It is a combination of Scott Woodward and Hartigan primarily.

I would have thought they'd be across current NRL players and fringe players but would have others looking at juniors. It's a big job for the 2 of them scouring the country for juniors aswell.

That is exactly what they do, the information that Woodward has at his disposal is very deep across the country.

Yes, the info, but is he the talent identifier? Was he the bloke picking the talent for storm?

He is the Recruitment and List Analyst at the Wests Tigers, it is his system that is used to identify the talent that we want to look at. I can explain the process a little more if you want.

please do, I love this stuff.

This is more in regards to the NRL but roster management is an ongoing process that requires planning for multiple years into the future. The club will have depth charts that extend at least 3-4 years into the future that include players we have signed up in those years including expected development. For example Kei who we have recently signed to a development contract and some of the players in the junior systems would be included in the NRL depth chart for for season 22-24.

The club will have developed Archetypes for what they are looking for in each position on the field based on the type of football we are looking to play. These would include attributes, skills and ability we are looking as a club. For example for a winger these could be things like tall, fast, low error under the high ball, ability to make a lot of yardage to start of the set. These things are all measurable and a value is assigned to these based on importance to the team.

The club would then compare our current roster to our archetypes and identify our strengths and weaknesses both on fulfilling those archetypes and the value they have assigned those skills.

In regards to retention that would allow the club to determine who they want to keep and what value they provide to the club. It allows the club to go into negotiations with not only a value on players but a reason for that value, they can say to a player that this is what we value you as and these are the reason why we have placed that value. These conversations would have occurred with both Aloiai and Nofa.

In regards to recruitment, it allows the club to identify players who fill an area of need for the club. I know speed is an attribute that the club has been very keen to address, hence the interest in JAC and the signing of Roberts. After a player has been identified as having attributes that fulfill an area of need that player would be looked at a lot more closely, that is when we will be watching a lot of game time on that player, meetings would be held to determine if they meet the culture and other aspect they can bring to club such as leadership and media presence etc. Once again the club would have a value based on what they believe the player brings to the club and negotiations would start.

When identifying talent based of the measurable data, Woodward and his systems would be providing that data to the club based off the archetypes and areas of weakness the club has determined. The data they look at goes back multiple years and across all levels of the game. Hartigan, Madge and Pascoe would be looking at more of intangible aspect of the player that are important to the club.

Hartigan has an excellent knowledge of players throughout the game and this is an area that he shines. He really is a huge asset to the club.

A couple of interesting points, when looking at Joffa for example his 2020 data is not great and is of concern until you take out the data from the games he was played out of position in the second row. With those games removed his stats improve massively.

The idea in all of this is to get as many players playing at your club on contracts that a re below their value to the club. This also allows you to maybe spend a bit more on the player that takes your team from a finge top 8 side to a genuine contender.

 

[twentyforty]

Don’t forget McDonnell

I’ve heard he was given the boot a few weeks ago. He did pick us up some juniors from bulldogs though


Really??

That’s what I’ve heard, he got moved on apparently.

Wow

He was brought back recently I thought

Cardio version?

 

[cochise]

I bet these two places will be filled with train and trial players. Leaving one for mid year

Unless something unexpected happens I think 2 spots will be left open until the end of July.

 

[earl]

For all of buy the best player on the market thinkers.Say we have $1.5mil for next year, for a start we have Laurie coming,how much cap?$400,000.Simkin plays like Harry and has to be upgraded ,how much?Many others including development players to be upgraded,how much ? Who do we keep?who do we release? A lot will depend on the performance of players in both grades.The money we have is not infinite and many hrs of planning must go into these decisions.

Exactly. It's not just about getting a player today. It's about being able to maintain a good team over a number of seasons. You don't do that by paying overs.

 

[earl]

But I agree with your post …when you continually miss the top talent questions need to be asked and answered …especially if we miss the finals again

Melbourne always miss top talent. I don't see the issue. I'd rather miss out on top talent than overpay for top talent.

No they just always grab the most talented junior and get it right virtually every time .......and then keep them 90% of the time

They lose them all the time. They lost Inglis, Korobiete, JAC, Tino etc. As soon as other clubs offer more money they let them go.

They get it right though consistently which is the hard part.

It's not easy developing a good team and it's hard to keep them. Melbourne to it better than anyone because of their ability to get top tier junior talent and keep the right ones consistently enough. When they want overs and they aren't critical players they let them go.

 

[TigerWest]

But I agree with your post …when you continually miss the top talent questions need to be asked and answered …especially if we miss the finals again

Melbourne always miss top talent. I don't see the issue. I'd rather miss out on top talent than overpay for top talent.

No they just always grab the most talented junior and get it right virtually every time .......and then keep them 90% of the time

Someone there has a great eye for identifying junior talent. It's one thing to copy their strategy but have we got the right people identifying the talent ?

It certainly feels like we have. Hartigan is our best signing in a long time

Yes, he does. Would he be the guy identifying juniors?

Combination of madge and him i reckon

It is a combination of Scott Woodward and Hartigan primarily.

I would have thought they'd be across current NRL players and fringe players but would have others looking at juniors. It's a big job for the 2 of them scouring the country for juniors aswell.

That is exactly what they do, the information that Woodward has at his disposal is very deep across the country.

Yes, the info, but is he the talent identifier? Was he the bloke picking the talent for storm?

He is the Recruitment and List Analyst at the Wests Tigers, it is his system that is used to identify the talent that we want to look at. I can explain the process a little more if you want.

please do, I love this stuff.

This is more in regards to the NRL but roster management is an ongoing process that requires planning for multiple years into the future. The club will have depth charts that extend at least 3-4 years into the future that include players we have signed up in those years including expected development. For example Kei who we have recently signed to a development contract and some of the players in the junior systems would be included in the NRL depth chart for for season 22-24.

The club will have developed Archetypes for what they are looking for in each position on the field based on the type of football we are looking to play. These would include attributes, skills and ability we are looking as a club. For example for a winger these could be things like tall, fast, low error under the high ball, ability to make a lot of yardage to start of the set. These things are all measurable and a value is assigned to these based on importance to the team.

The club would then compare our current roster to our archetypes and identify our strengths and weaknesses both on fulfilling those archetypes and the value they have assigned those skills.

In regards to retention that would allow the club to determine who they want to keep and what value they provide to the club. It allows the club to go into negotiations with not only a value on players but a reason for that value, they can say to a player that this is what we value you as and these are the reason why we have placed that value. These conversations would have occurred with both Aloiai and Nofa.

In regards to recruitment, it allows the club to identify players who fill an area of need for the club. I know speed is an attribute that the club has been very keen to address, hence the interest in JAC and the signing of Roberts. After a player has been identified as having attributes that fulfill an area of need that player would be looked at a lot more closely, that is when we will be watching a lot of game time on that player, meetings would be held to determine if they meet the culture and other aspect they can bring to club such as leadership and media presence etc. Once again the club would have a value based on what they believe the player brings to the club and negotiations would start.

When identifying talent based of the measurable data, Woodward and his systems would be providing that data to the club based off the archetypes and areas of weakness the club has determined. The data they look at goes back multiple years and across all levels of the game. Hartigan, Madge and Pascoe would be looking at more of intangible aspect of the player that are important to the club.

Hartigan has an excellent knowledge of players throughout the game and this is an area that he shines. He really is a huge asset to the club.

A couple of interesting points, when looking at Joffa for example his 2020 data is not great and is of concern until you take out the data from the games he was played out of position in the second row. With those games removed his stats improve massively.

The idea in all of this is to get as many players playing at your club on contracts that a re below their value to the club. This also allows you to maybe spend a bit more on the player that takes your team from a finge top 8 side to a genuine contender.

Good post, cheers

 

[happy_tiger]

But I agree with your post …when you continually miss the top talent questions need to be asked and answered …especially if we miss the finals again

Melbourne always miss top talent. I don't see the issue. I'd rather miss out on top talent than overpay for top talent.

No they just always grab the most talented junior and get it right virtually every time .......and then keep them 90% of the time

Someone there has a great eye for identifying junior talent. It's one thing to copy their strategy but have we got the right people identifying the talent ?

It certainly feels like we have. Hartigan is our best signing in a long time

But we won't know for 3 years at least if he is or isn't ...and even then have we got the people to then develop that talent ??