Simona on the move

Zillman had a horrific run of major injuries early in his career. I believe what he has achieved since has been quite impressive. I like him and always have. However, at 30, those injuries will be catching up with him. His last 2 years havent been his best although i havent watched all that closely. I still admire William immensely for the career he has carved put after it looked over as a youngster.

While i dont agree with us signing him, if he comes i will support him and hope he shuts a few mouths. If anyone has the character to do it its him.
 
If this leads to us keeping all of the big 4 then okay…we have that $1.3M centre coming through who will no doubt play NRL next year and Ryan Papenhuyzen who is a gun not to mention Connelly Leumelu...these guys could turn into top notch backline players next year....I assume we get Zillman very cheap for 2017
 
@2041 said:
@ricksen said:
@jirskyr said:
@2041 said:
And yet, the Titans have managed to emerge from cap hell to the extent that they have been able to sign Jarryd Hayne, Konrad Hurrell, Dan Sarginson and Kevin Proctor in the past nine months while the Tigers are STILL shedding first-grade players because their cap is such a mess.

I don't get the comparison? Recently Tigers have shed far fewer players than Titans have.

Since 2014 Titans have let go of 12, 15 and 10 players, including 7 retirements. In that same period Tigers moved on 13, 8 and 7 including 3 retirements.

So quite clearly Titans were still shedding large numbers of players into 2017 to afford the guys you have noted.

Tbh we probably should have shed more players as well

Bingo. If you need to shed players because they're overpaid for their performance, do it. Do it hard and do it quickly, because that's the quickest way to getting to the point where you can start to add again. The Tigers have been half pregnant since 2013 and show no sign of getting anywhere else.

For starters I don't agree you get results by cutting 10+ players every season. GC have cut around half their Top 25 each of the last 3 years. You risk losing your combinations / team experience. You talk about Tigers still shedding players, but as an example Gold Coast are clearly STILL shedding players as well.

If you shed players you have to replace them, you need a squad. So a middle-depth player really can only be replaced by another middle-depth, each club only has so much money to splash on marquees. What you need is to maximise the performance of your cheaper players, not just keep swapping them in and out.

Secondly, sure Titans signed a few good opportune players last year, but they didn't already have a Tedesco or Woods in their side. They have very young halves, picked up a returning veteran, a moved-on hooker, a kiwi backrower and an Englishman. Sounds VERY like Tigers in recent years.

Thirdly, Titans have finished exactly one spot above or behind us 4/5 previous seasons: 2016 9 v 8, 2015 14 v 15, 2014 13 v 14, 2013 15 v 9, 2012 10 v 11\. Not exactly a recipe for success.
 
@Pawsandclaws said:
But how can we be over the salary cap if we have signed Taylor, Idris and Suli? Surely their contracts would not be registered by the NRL if we were not compliant. Does anyone else share this view?

Probably for the first time ever I agree with you Paws.

Not sure how the NRL would have ratified the contracts if we were over. Just hoping that with the apparent "cap scandal" story that was run prior to Lovett getting nailed for possession that other clubs are expressing interest in our decent players and it's just sending the rumour mill into overdrive.

I'm putting little stock into it until something is done.
 
@king sirro said:
Zillman had a horrific run of major injuries early in his career. I believe what he has achieved since has been quite impressive. I like him and always have. However, at 30, those injuries will be catching up with him. His last 2 years havent been his best although i havent watched all that closely. I still admire William immensely for the career he has carved put after it looked over as a youngster.

While i dont agree with us signing him, if he comes i will support him and hope he shuts a few mouths. If anyone has the character to do it its him.

Yeah, I though he was going to be a very special player early in his career…terrific ball runner and support player.
But I dont know about now, is he what we need?
 
@innsaneink said:
@king sirro said:
Zillman had a horrific run of major injuries early in his career. I believe what he has achieved since has been quite impressive. I like him and always have. However, at 30, those injuries will be catching up with him. His last 2 years havent been his best although i havent watched all that closely. I still admire William immensely for the career he has carved put after it looked over as a youngster.

While i dont agree with us signing him, if he comes i will support him and hope he shuts a few mouths. If anyone has the character to do it its him.

Yeah, I though he was going to be a very special player early in his career…terrific ball runner and support player.
But I dont know about now, is he what we need?

NOPE

He's like a fast Clinton Shitcoughski with no goal-kicking. You know when some blokes run onto the paddock whether they have "it" or not, to compete at a good level ever week. Some blokes are pea-hearts, others just lack the overall talent.

Billy Zillman was at one time very quick, and it got him some contracts. But he doesn't have the game required.

I cannot overstate how ordinary a footballer he is.
 
@jirskyr said:
@2041 said:
@ricksen said:
@jirskyr said:
I don't get the comparison? Recently Tigers have shed far fewer players than Titans have.

Since 2014 Titans have let go of 12, 15 and 10 players, including 7 retirements. In that same period Tigers moved on 13, 8 and 7 including 3 retirements.

So quite clearly Titans were still shedding large numbers of players into 2017 to afford the guys you have noted.

Tbh we probably should have shed more players as well

Bingo. If you need to shed players because they're overpaid for their performance, do it. Do it hard and do it quickly, because that's the quickest way to getting to the point where you can start to add again. The Tigers have been half pregnant since 2013 and show no sign of getting anywhere else.

For starters I don't agree you get results by cutting 10+ players every season. GC have cut around half their Top 25 each of the last 3 years. You risk losing your combinations / team experience. You talk about Tigers still shedding players, but as an example Gold Coast are clearly STILL shedding players as well.

If you shed players you have to replace them, you need a squad. So a middle-depth player really can only be replaced by another middle-depth, each club only has so much money to splash on marquees. What you need is to maximise the performance of your cheaper players, not just keep swapping them in and out.

Secondly, sure Titans signed a few good opportune players last year, but they didn't already have a Tedesco or Woods in their side. They have very young halves, picked up a returning veteran, a moved-on hooker, a kiwi backrower and an Englishman. Sounds VERY like Tigers in recent years.

Thirdly, Titans have finished exactly one spot above or behind us 4/5 previous seasons: 2016 9 v 8, 2015 14 v 15, 2014 13 v 14, 2013 15 v 9, 2012 10 v 11\. Not exactly a recipe for success.

Look, I'm not holding the Titans up as a recipe for success. I just think that after years of mediocrity their next 2-3 years at the moment look better than ours, because they've managed to import quality at the same time instead of piecemeal. The Tigers seem to be caught in a never-ending cycle of being right on the cap because they're only shedding contracts at a painfully slow rate (often with significant freight being paid for years). As I've said before, barring a miracle in 2017 the Tigers have already wasted the opportunity Brooks, Moses and Tedesco gave them because by 2018 they will either have left or be earning market rate. Once you're paying juniors full whack they are no longer any different to any other free agent.

You're trying to compare their signings with Idris, Ballin, Blair and Ellis - but the Tigers signed those four in 2016, 2015, 2012 and 2010 and no more that two of them ever played together. AND the like-for-like comparison doesn't even include Hurrell (assuming veteran = Hayne, hooker = Peats, backrower = Proctor and Englishman = Sarginson).

In fact, it's possible to make a case that the Titans have done extraordinarily well to avoid bottoming out while they went through a rebuild. It's a testament to how quickly the likes of Elgey and - especially - Taylor settled into first grade that 2015 and 2016 were ok for them. They're taking a side that finished 8th in 2016 and adding mostly class players, including a full season of Jarryd Hayne and Konrad Hurrell. Meanwhile what they've lost is either past it or fringe quality. Look at Greg Bird: two years ago he was a rep quality player, in 2016 he was fringe average and now he's gone. If he was a Tiger you could guarantee we'd still be paying him for 2017 and 2018, probably to play for someone else.

As I say, I'd be cautious to say the Titans are going to be a juggernaut or anything. But you'd have to like their chances of finishing ahead of the Tigers in 2017\. And, frankly, for several years to come - there is categorically no indication that the Tigers will be able to add anything worthwhile to their roster once they've re-signed as many of the 'big four' as they can. If they've got no cap money now they're hardly going to free any up after they've handed out three or four big new deals.
 
The main difference between the Tits and us is the standard of the coach.They do have a good coach who seems to get them to perform.
 
@Bengal Tiger said:
Could it be possible Simona was with Lovett that night he was arrested?

Hypothetical i know, but If that was the case, sack lovett and send Simona on his way. But you can't move simon a on and keep lovett - lovett is the one that was arrested.
 
@jirskyr said:
@2041 said:
@ricksen said:
@jirskyr said:
I don't get the comparison? Recently Tigers have shed far fewer players than Titans have.

Since 2014 Titans have let go of 12, 15 and 10 players, including 7 retirements. In that same period Tigers moved on 13, 8 and 7 including 3 retirements.

So quite clearly Titans were still shedding large numbers of players into 2017 to afford the guys you have noted.

Tbh we probably should have shed more players as well

Bingo. If you need to shed players because they're overpaid for their performance, do it. Do it hard and do it quickly, because that's the quickest way to getting to the point where you can start to add again. The Tigers have been half pregnant since 2013 and show no sign of getting anywhere else.

For starters I don't agree you get results by cutting 10+ players every season. GC have cut around half their Top 25 each of the last 3 years. You risk losing your combinations / team experience. You talk about Tigers still shedding players, but as an example Gold Coast are clearly STILL shedding players as well.

If you shed players you have to replace them, you need a squad. So a middle-depth player really can only be replaced by another middle-depth, each club only has so much money to splash on marquees. What you need is to maximise the performance of your cheaper players, not just keep swapping them in and out.

Secondly, sure Titans signed a few good opportune players last year, but they didn't already have a Tedesco or Woods in their side. They have very young halves, picked up a returning veteran, a moved-on hooker, a kiwi backrower and an Englishman. Sounds VERY like Tigers in recent years.

Thirdly, Titans have finished exactly one spot above or behind us 4/5 previous seasons: 2016 9 v 8, 2015 14 v 15, 2014 13 v 14, 2013 15 v 9, 2012 10 v 11\. Not exactly a recipe for success.

Didn't they sign Josh Wallace, from the Broncos earlier. He was one who Darius's Dad didn't want to lose. A damn good Prop.
 
@2041 said:
@jirskyr said:
@2041 said:
@ricksen said:
Tbh we probably should have shed more players as well

Bingo. If you need to shed players because they're overpaid for their performance, do it. Do it hard and do it quickly, because that's the quickest way to getting to the point where you can start to add again. The Tigers have been half pregnant since 2013 and show no sign of getting anywhere else.

For starters I don't agree you get results by cutting 10+ players every season. GC have cut around half their Top 25 each of the last 3 years. You risk losing your combinations / team experience. You talk about Tigers still shedding players, but as an example Gold Coast are clearly STILL shedding players as well.

If you shed players you have to replace them, you need a squad. So a middle-depth player really can only be replaced by another middle-depth, each club only has so much money to splash on marquees. What you need is to maximise the performance of your cheaper players, not just keep swapping them in and out.

Secondly, sure Titans signed a few good opportune players last year, but they didn't already have a Tedesco or Woods in their side. They have very young halves, picked up a returning veteran, a moved-on hooker, a kiwi backrower and an Englishman. Sounds VERY like Tigers in recent years.

Thirdly, Titans have finished exactly one spot above or behind us 4/5 previous seasons: 2016 9 v 8, 2015 14 v 15, 2014 13 v 14, 2013 15 v 9, 2012 10 v 11\. Not exactly a recipe for success.

Look, I'm not holding the Titans up as a recipe for success. I just think that after years of mediocrity their next 2-3 years at the moment look better than ours, because they've managed to import quality at the same time instead of piecemeal. The Tigers seem to be caught in a never-ending cycle of being right on the cap because they're only shedding contracts at a painfully slow rate (often with significant freight being paid for years). As I've said before, barring a miracle in 2017 the Tigers have already wasted the opportunity Brooks, Moses and Tedesco gave them because by 2018 they will either have left or be earning market rate. Once you're paying juniors full whack they are no longer any different to any other free agent.

You're trying to compare their signings with Idris, Ballin, Blair and Ellis - but the Tigers signed those four in 2016, 2015, 2012 and 2010 and no more that two of them ever played together. AND the like-for-like comparison doesn't even include Hurrell (assuming veteran = Hayne, hooker = Peats, backrower = Proctor and Englishman = Sarginson).

In fact, it's possible to make a case that the Titans have done extraordinarily well to avoid bottoming out while they went through a rebuild. It's a testament to how quickly the likes of Elgey and - especially - Taylor settled into first grade that 2015 and 2016 were ok for them. They're taking a side that finished 8th in 2016 and adding mostly class players, including a full season of Jarryd Hayne and Konrad Hurrell. Meanwhile what they've lost is either past it or fringe quality. Look at Greg Bird: two years ago he was a rep quality player, in 2016 he was fringe average and now he's gone. If he was a Tiger you could guarantee we'd still be paying him for 2017 and 2018, probably to play for someone else.

As I say, I'd be cautious to say the Titans are going to be a juggernaut or anything. But you'd have to like their chances of finishing ahead of the Tigers in 2017\. And, frankly, for several years to come - there is categorically no indication that the Tigers will be able to add anything worthwhile to their roster once they've re-signed as many of the 'big four' as they can. If they've got no cap money now they're hardly going to free any up after they've handed out three or four big new deals.

A tempered view of the Titans is absolutely reasonable. I know you feel they've imported well, but in my opinion they have to because they have very limited top-flight local talent. They are not allocating big bucks to boom juniors.

The comparison between Tigers and Titans signings by me was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. The point I was making is that signings on paper are one thing, outcome is another. Blair was hailed and failed, Proctor… we'll see. I have major concerns about all Storm footballers who leave that system to carry more burden at other clubs.. Sarginson is totally untested at NRL level, Jarryd Hayne is a proven mercenary you cannot build a team around, Koni Hurrell is hardly a lock for success after so many middling years at Warriors. Tigers have signed quite similar types of players, not all at once, and similarly some worked out and some did not.

Regarding Broses and Tedesco, I would argue they are already earning near-enough market rate, it's not as if they are bargain basement right now. Really they've never been bargain, so hopes to get them for a few years on cheap contracts never would have existed. Elgey and Ash Taylor on the other hand are 16 and 23 games into their careers and quite frankly have a very long way to go. I mean Mitch Moses has almost 20 more games experience than these Titans halves combined.

And then what happens to Elgey-Taylor in 1-2 seasons when their contracts are up and their value is up. Titans have salary cap space for that future possibility? Or do they find themselves like Tigers 2017, trying to fit everyone in?

Are you sure Titans aren't paying Greg Bird at all? He was on a 4 year deal starting 2014\. He signed a 5-year deal with Catalans, whom he'd already played with before, and this is post the 2015 cocaine scandal and 2016 2 x alcohol incidents. Yeah Titans moved him on; I wish Robbie Farah had gone so easily!

So ultimately I don't get the difference between spending a large amount of your salary cap on local talent versus importing players. You end up with several expensive and hopefully star footballers. Titans have definitely been positively active in recruitment, but again, I think they have to be because their roster was really thin. 10 of the players that helped them make the 8 last year are gone. You can argue that this is a positive, that they've added better footballers to their side, but I though the same about Tigers 2006 and that obviously didn't work out.

But the proof will be in the pudding.
 
Simona looks like Tarzan plays like Jane. Too many selfies with no shirt on, cmon man….play at least two good games in a row before you pretend you are a turn yourself into a social media star.

At least zillman will try his best and not be a poser.
 
@jadtiger said:
The main difference between the Tits and us is the standard of the coach.They do have a good coach who seems to get them to perform.

GC finished half a win (or 1 point) in front of us last season didn't they? Hardly cause for hailing Henry a messiah IMO. For the most part coaches are only as good as their cattle.
 
The Titans are very quick to break the bank and are being propped up.

even now their greatest recruit is sounding out possible code changes.

They dont inspire commitment from fans or players alike.

If they die very few will care.
 
@Fade To Black said:
@jadtiger said:
The main difference between the Tits and us is the standard of the coach.They do have a good coach who seems to get them to perform.

GC finished half a win (or 1 point) in front of us last season didn't they? Hardly cause for hailing Henry a messiah IMO. For the most part coaches are only as good as their cattle.

The better measure of success would be (and it is subjective) is how did they perform based on their respective rosters and where solid football critics thought they would finish compared to where they finished.
 
I would of thought our rosters would have been pretty even and the critics would of had both WT and GC in their bottom 4 before the start of last season.
 
@Fade To Black said:
I would of thought our rosters would have been pretty even and the critics would of had both WT and GC in their bottom 4 before the start of last season.

That being the case you would have to say they are on a par. in terms of how their teams finished the year. The next thing is how do the players(their managers included) and club management feel about them and last how do the supporters feel about them.
 
I don't think anyone is holding the Titans up as a poster child - just that they managed to purge their roster of cap $$ rather quickly, allowing them to reinvest and rebuild. Admittedly, some of that was inadvertent and through their own incompetence (i.e. James Roberts).
We've been trying to rebuild for a few years, but never really purged the middling players (re-signing the likes of Kev and Lovett), and thus are in a situation where we're in a real struggle to retain our own talent, let alone look to the market.
It took us nearly TWO YEARS to get Farah off the books. Had the club gone about it the right way in the first place*, then we could have dealt with the vast majority of his dead cap space last year, and had the ability to move in 2017.
I just think you really need to bottom out when you're rebuilding - look at the bad contracts and get rid of them ASAP, stop going after fringe players and gronks. Ignore results for a year or two.
We kinda ended up somewhere in the middle, and yet nearly bottomed out on the field anyway (2015).
Penrith is a pretty decent example of the what we should be looking at, especially given they've had their own talent to retain too.

* yes I know Ayoub was a massive factor, but to be fair the vast majority of player agents are borderline crooks - the club should have handled it a lot better. JT, Reddy, Pascoe, the board - all of them.
 
Back
Top