St George Illawarra chase compensation over Tim Moltzen cont

[Yossarian]

Why have the Tigers told Molzten and Tauber to look elsewhere if they were never going to release him?

Because you need to free up $x, not knowing who may get offers and who may not you choose 4 or 5 players who collectively are on $y which is above the $x needed to free up, because you only really need to shed 2 or 3 of those players you allow them to test the waters to see if they can get interest by other clubs but to come back and formally get a release from the club if and when there was a genuine offer from the other club.

Correct. Permission to talk is a precursor to signing, it is not the permission to sign elsewhere. It's like putting your house on the market and being obliged to accept any offer. Yes it is highly unusual a club would grant someone permission to talk to other clubs and then not grant a release but it is not illegal. Yes St Geo-Ill can feel annoyed and hard done by but that's hardly grounds for legal action otherwise we'd all have a class action against the NRL referees.

None of this changes the fact that the Tigers were prepared to release Tim Moltzen at the point they allowed him to talk to other clubs.

It's not they have said "Hey Tim, for the fun of it, why don't you go see what you are worth on the market? Odds are there will be a couple of clubs that are prepared to pay you much more than we are going to pay you - but oh well - we are just going to laugh and refuse a release when you come back to us with an offer".

An intention to do something is not the same as agreeing to do it. Continuing my analogy, if I list my home I may have every intention of selling it but until I sign a contract that counts for nothing. If someone pays off my mortgage the next day I might change my mind. As I said I'm not disputing that our handling of it was lousy and that St Geo-Ill should be dirty, I'm just suggesting that isn't grounds for a lawsuit.

 

[Yossarian]

They won't win any law suits. I agree on that but they win a far greater victory by dragging the Wests Tigers name through the dirt by constant media spotlight on the highly convoluted and suspect way in which WT, Moltzen and Tauber carried themselves throughout this fiasco.

I suspect WT will arrange some compensation to make this issue go away as there are column inches to fill before the season starts and this story is a stayer and the club is open to having their name dragged through the mud repeatedly if it is not resolved

I think you give the bad publicity this generates too much weight. Since all this we've already shopped Lui of Townsville. Clubs only care about themselves and what players they want. If they have to start talks with a team run by neo-Nazis and devil worshippers they will do it if it means they get the player they want.
I'd also suggest the general level of arrogance demonstrated by the Dragons since the mid 1950s would stop most clubs feeling at all sorry for them.

 

[PrattenParkMagpie]

None of this changes the fact that the Tigers were prepared to release Tim Moltzen at the point they allowed him to talk to other clubs.

It's not they have said "Hey Tim, for the fun of it, why don't you go see what you are worth on the market? Odds are there will be a couple of clubs that are prepared to pay you much more than we are going to pay you - but oh well - we are just going to laugh and refuse a release when you come back to us with an offer".

How about "Hey Tim, why don't you go see what you are worth on the market?, if you do find an offer come back a let us know as we will be in a better position to know if we still need to free up the cash or can keep you on and we can make a better informed decision then if and when the situation arises”

and when trying off load players it is not a mere formality to release them as if they get an offer below their current contract amount their current club would likely be liable to make up the difference, in these cases I think a confirmed Ok to the new club or player manager from their current club would always be a mandatory requirement before any deal is signed with a new club.

 

[Tigersmurf]

So Centaur St George got Gazumped!

 

[Centaur]

None of this changes the fact that the Tigers were prepared to release Tim Moltzen at the point they allowed him to talk to other clubs.

It's not they have said "Hey Tim, for the fun of it, why don't you go see what you are worth on the market? Odds are there will be a couple of clubs that are prepared to pay you much more than we are going to pay you - but oh well - we are just going to laugh and refuse a release when you come back to us with an offer".

How about "Hey Tim, why don't you go see what you are worth on the market?, if you do find an offer come back a let us know as we will be in a better position to know if we still need to free up the cash or can keep you on and we can make a better informed decision then if and when the situation arises”

and when trying off load players it is not a mere formality to release them as if they get an offer below their current contract amount their current club would likely be liable to make up the difference, in these cases I think a confirmed Ok to the new club or player manager from their current club would always be a mandatory requirement before any deal is signed with a new club.

I still don't think you tell a player to scope out the market unless you are prepared to release them. You wouldn't hear about the club telling the likes of Marshall, Farah or Lawrence to test the market. At the time Moltzen would have felt unwanted and he signed a contract with another club accordingly.

 

[innsaneink]

The dragqueens are the innocent victims really but really it just shows what everyone has been saying for years, the nrl clubs are poorly managed and have poor administration, **its not a done deal until a realese form is given with the contract…** why wasnt that chased up straight away by the dragons side? regardless of what molzten does its not a valid contract till the realese document is handed over to the new club they should never have announced it until the form was handed over...

They are the victims of all this but dumb victims in my opinion

Its common practice apparently to sign with another club before the release is given….players dont want to be released before signing new deals, they dont want to be unsigned for any period ( hanging in limbo in no mans land) just in case one of the partys party change their minds

Its OK to do it to them but if it happens to us well watch the sparks fly....funny how sports bring out highly biased irrationality in some (this not directed at you adam)

 

[Marshall_magic]

I probably sound like a traitor here but the Wests Tigers would be doing exactly the same if the shoe was on the other foot.

I personally feel the Dragons have every right to compensation for what has been a massive shambles. Out of the four parties involved (Tigers, Dragons, Manager and Moltzen) I honestly think the Dragons are worthy of the least blame.

I actually agree with you. If anyone should be compensating the Dragons though, I think it's Tim and Tauber, they're the ones who entered into the contract WITHOUT a formal release from a conflicting one.

 

[benji_6]

I think this has more to do with Josh Dugan more than anything else….

 

[Chris]

- Months go by, Dragons have signed Moltzen, they have released key players and are building a side in 2012 around Moltzen.

Who did the Dragons release and sign to build a team around Moltzen?

I personally believe the Dragons wont win any compensation battle because the Tigers have the upper hand with not signing any release papers. Legally, Wests Tigers are protected in that sense but morally, as Ink pointed out, the Tigers are in the wrong because they backed out of a gentleman's agreement. A practice occurring through out the player trade world.

I personally believe that the Tigers had every intention to release Tim Moltzen and Tim Moltzen had every intention to go to the Dragons. I personally believed two things happened and everything went pear shaped.

1\. After Signing with the Dragons, Moltzen was told by Price that he didnt have a guaranteed position in the team. He was not a guaranteed walk up start to any position.

2\. Robert Lui.

When both incidents occured, Tauber and the Tigers got together and said "whoops! We need you as much as you need us, how do we get out of this one now?" So they found a loop hole with the non release excuse. Legally, nothing wrong but as I said before, morally, it's very poor form on the club's part as well as Tim Moltzen and Martin Tauber.

I'm not saying this is exactly what happen and these are just my own personal opinions. If I'm wrong and the truth comes out one day, I'll stand up and say "yeah, I was wrong" but I cant get this bad taste out of my mouth. No matter how much you sugar coat this whole situation to make, yes, St. George look like whingers and sore losers, at the end of the day, we look a whole lot worse than that. There is no doubt this situation will probably change the way players are signed now.

 

[happy_tiger]

Well Centaur if the Dragons thought they were right why didn't they wait for Schubert's decision and then use that as a bargaining tool against the Tigers

And how did the Tigers shaft the Dragons the imbecile Dragons shafted themselves if anything Tauber has played his part you are right there but the Dragons are the ones in the wrong in all of this and if you think otherwise then maybe I should organize a Red V package for you in 2012 .

Sigh.

What a waste of time and effort. :crazy

Yeah good comeback Notice you still haven't found any official statements stating where the Tigers were going to release Moltzen

Have you actually thought that Moltzen and Tauber may have done this off their own back trying to force the Tigers into extending his contract before they had initially planned . Might explain why the Tigers aren't rushing into giving him a contract extension now as was stated by the Tigers early last week

 

[innsaneink]

Happy…......... Sheens, Marshall, Moltzen and many many others in the months after were all quoted saying things in numerous interviews and articles that implied everyone believed he was a Dragon in 2012

 

[Chadman_s_Ghost]

Ok, so under the letter of the law, the Tigers did no wrong.

Wonderful.

Even the multitude of legal-eagles that have emerged on this site during this post must know- even if they don't want to admit it- that Moltzen was told to go find another club. He did. Then Lui acted like a moron. Then the Tigers looked at their options & used 'the letter of the law' as a get out of jail free card.

I like Tim Moltzen. I love the Tigers. But I think it stinks. If it was done in reverse, and the Dragons used 'the letter of the law' against us, we'd be up in arms about 'doing the right thing'. The Dragons built their roster based on the knowledge that Moltzen was part of their club. Poor form to pull the carpet from under them- EVEN IF THE TIGERS ELUDED TO IT EARLIER IN THE YEAR. It should never have been left open like it was after the Dragons announced his signing. Tigers should have, at that point, said- "you know what? We are not releasing him". They didn't. They let the sham roll on. I can only believe it was because they fully intended to let him go.

Until Lui.

If nothing else- I've learned 2 things out of this. 1- the Tigers can disappoint me away from the playing field as much as on it at times.

2- don't do any business deals with Happy Tiger. :laughing:

 

[LaT]

Moltzen staying was something that emerged before Mad Monday, and before Lui was arrested for the 2nd time.

And we don't know that Moltzen was "told to go find another club", we know he was given permission to talk to other clubs, which is a small but important difference. Clubs do this for a variety of reasons, it doesn't always result in the player leaving the club.

I don't condone how we acted, it was poor form. But there are some wild "facts" being thrown around in here that are off the mark.

 

[Team_Tiger]

I think they need the money to fix the roof on Win Stadium :slight_smile:

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

The dragqueens are the innocent victims really but really it just shows what everyone has been saying for years, the nrl clubs are poorly managed and have poor administration, **its not a done deal until a realese form is given with the contract…** why wasnt that chased up straight away by the dragons side? regardless of what molzten does its not a valid contract till the realese document is handed over to the new club they should never have announced it until the form was handed over...

They are the victims of all this but dumb victims in my opinion

Its common practice apparently to sign with another club before the release is given….players dont want to be released before signing new deals, they dont want to be unsigned for any period ( hanging in limbo in no mans land) just in case one of the partys party change their minds

Its OK to do it to them but if it happens to us well watch the sparks fly....funny how sports bring out highly biased irrationality in some (this not directed at you adam)

Ink, it looks as though the majority of us agree on a number of points here:

1\. Legally, (not ethically,) the WT have done nothing wrong;
2\. Tauber has a lot to answer for;
3\. The Dragons have every right to feel hard done by, but they are guilty of stupidity.

For the record Ink, if the shoe was on the other foot, I'd be furious. My stance on this is that while the Dragons have every right to feel like they've been shafted, they're out of line requesting compensation from WT, because from a legal standpoint, we've done nothing wrong. They should be gunning for Tauber.

In no way am I impressed with how WT handled this. I still believe Tim should have stuck to his word and went.

 

[Centaur]

Well Centaur if the Dragons thought they were right why didn't they wait for Schubert's decision and then use that as a bargaining tool against the Tigers

And how did the Tigers shaft the Dragons the imbecile Dragons shafted themselves if anything Tauber has played his part you are right there but the Dragons are the ones in the wrong in all of this and if you think otherwise then maybe I should organize a Red V package for you in 2012 .

Sigh.

What a waste of time and effort. :crazy

Yeah good comeback Notice you still haven't found any official statements stating where the Tigers were going to release Moltzen

Have you actually thought that Moltzen and Tauber may have done this off their own back trying to force the Tigers into extending his contract before they had initially planned . Might explain why the Tigers aren't rushing into giving him a contract extension now as was stated by the Tigers early last week

There would not be very many people that try and deny the fact that Moltzen was going to the Dragons in 2012 - but please feel free to continue your delusion.

All I have said is that the Tigers would do exactly the same thing if the shoes was on the other foot, the whole scenario was a shambles, the Dragons have a right to seek compensation and the Dragons are the least to blame.

I never said the Tigers should pay the compenstation- I won't even bother trying to determine who is 'legally' liable for the mess. But I do believe the Tigers, Moltzen and Tauber are all more to blame than the Dragons - unfortunately.

Quite interestingly though, I will quote this excerpt from the salary cap rules:

_"Where a person wishes to enter into an NRL PLaying Contract…with a Club and that person is a party to a current NRL Playing Contract with another club...that person must ensure, prior to entering into the NRL Playing Contract...he has forever been released from his obligations under the Playing Agreement..."_

Sounds like a Moltzen/Tauber issue to me.

 

[simonthetiger]

I call them merge as most of their fans are in complete denial ofthis fact!!
\
\
Posted using RoarFEED

Which is why calling them the Steelers is a more accurate insult

I actually call them Illawarras socks….as it seems to be the only recognisable bit of the steelers!!!

[edited by Mods]

 

[Tiger_Watto]

They won't win any law suits. I agree on that but they win a far greater victory by dragging the Wests Tigers name through the dirt by constant media spotlight on the highly convoluted and suspect way in which WT, Moltzen and Tauber carried themselves throughout this fiasco.

I suspect WT will arrange some compensation to make this issue go away as there are column inches to fill before the season starts and this story is a stayer and the club is open to having their name dragged through the mud repeatedly if it is not resolved

^^^ This ^^^

'Compensation' doesnt nessasary have to be a legal matter… As Smeg has pointed out, the longer the Dragons keep this matter alive through the media, the longer the Tigers look poor!

 

[happy_tiger]

Well Centaur if the Dragons thought they were right why didn't they wait for Schubert's decision and then use that as a bargaining tool against the Tigers

And how did the Tigers shaft the Dragons the imbecile Dragons shafted themselves if anything Tauber has played his part you are right there but the Dragons are the ones in the wrong in all of this and if you think otherwise then maybe I should organize a Red V package for you in 2012 .

Sigh.

What a waste of time and effort. :crazy

Yeah good comeback Notice you still haven't found any official statements stating where the Tigers were going to release Moltzen

Have you actually thought that Moltzen and Tauber may have done this off their own back trying to force the Tigers into extending his contract before they had initially planned . Might explain why the Tigers aren't rushing into giving him a contract extension now as was stated by the Tigers early last week

There would not be very many people that try and deny the fact that Moltzen was going to the Dragons in 2012 - but please feel free to continue your delusion.

All I have said is that the Tigers would do exactly the same thing if the shoes was on the other foot, the whole scenario was a shambles, the Dragons have a right to seek compensation and the Dragons are the least to blame.

I never said the Tigers should pay the compenstation- I won't even bother trying to determine who is 'legally' liable for the mess. But I do believe the Tigers, Moltzen and Tauber are all more to blame than the Dragons - unfortunately.

Quite interestingly though, I will quote this excerpt from the salary cap rules:

_"Where a person wishes to enter into an NRL PLaying Contract…with a Club and that person is a party to a current NRL Playing Contract with another club...that person must ensure, prior to entering into the NRL Playing Contract...he has forever been released from his obligations under the Playing Agreement..."_

Sounds like a Moltzen/Tauber issue to me.

Yeah totally agree that the buck probably stops with Tauber ,but you can't go past the fact if The Saints had crossed their t's and dotted their i's this would have come out far sooner than it did which explains why their was so much time between the "illegal" Moltzen contract and everything that went down much later
I can understand how so people are upset at the way the Tigers handled it , but we knew we had the upper hand from step 1 and (if it was a case that we changed or minds about keeping Moltzen or we sat on our hands and did nothing) they we were in a win win situation You may think I have a deluded sense of business sense but let me tell you that is how a lot of business goes on and you have got to accept that in the world of big business Sorry for the reality check Centaur

 

[Centaur]

Yeah good comeback Notice you still haven't found any official statements stating where the Tigers were going to release Moltzen

Have you actually thought that Moltzen and Tauber may have done this off their own back trying to force the Tigers into extending his contract before they had initially planned . Might explain why the Tigers aren't rushing into giving him a contract extension now as was stated by the Tigers early last week

There would not be very many people that try and deny the fact that Moltzen was going to the Dragons in 2012 - but please feel free to continue your delusion.

All I have said is that the Tigers would do exactly the same thing if the shoes was on the other foot, the whole scenario was a shambles, the Dragons have a right to seek compensation and the Dragons are the least to blame.

I never said the Tigers should pay the compenstation- I won't even bother trying to determine who is 'legally' liable for the mess. But I do believe the Tigers, Moltzen and Tauber are all more to blame than the Dragons - unfortunately.

Quite interestingly though, I will quote this excerpt from the salary cap rules:

_"Where a person wishes to enter into an NRL PLaying Contract…with a Club and that person is a party to a current NRL Playing Contract with another club...that person must ensure, prior to entering into the NRL Playing Contract...he has forever been released from his obligations under the Playing Agreement..."_

Sounds like a Moltzen/Tauber issue to me.

Yeah totally agree that the buck probably stops with Tauber ,but you can't go past the fact if The Saints had crossed their t's and dotted their i's this would have come out far sooner than it did which explains why their was so much time between the "illegal" Moltzen contract and everything that went down much later
I can understand how so people are upset at the way the Tigers handled it , but we knew we had the upper hand from step 1 and (if it was a case that we changed or minds about keeping Moltzen or we sat on our hands and did nothing) they we were in a win win situation You may think I have a deluded sense of business sense but let me tell you that is how a lot of business goes on and you have got to accept that in the world of big business Sorry for the reality check Centaur

Oh no, no need to apologise - I am extremely priviledged to have been enlightened on how big business operates by such a wise and highly regarded member of the Wests Tigers Forum.

After all, I am uneducated, unemployed and lacking in real life experience.