Tears dont cut it Mr. President

[stryker]

It's an interesting read but any article that starts from the premise that the US government is shooting 6 year old kids to advance some cause is on shaky ground. Witness statements are notoriously unreliable which is why you often get conflicting or just flat-out wrong information especially in the early stages after an event.

I'd like to think the US government would not be involved but history tells me and has shown me that they are a ruthless society…I have seen it first hand. The killing of innocents is most definetly not beyond them...in fact it often seems a tactic.
As for witnesses, yes they can be unreliable but I am more concerned with the discontinued reporting of their statements. Many witnesses said they saw the cops arrest a bloke in the woods whilst others said they saw at least one man in black fatigues wearing a bulletproof vest and ski mask. Not a single one of them identified this Lanza kid as the shooter. This was all reported on the day of the shootings and has since been capped. The whole reporting of this tragedy is a lie. That idiot coroner stated that every deceased person was shot with an AR-15 Bushmaster .223 assault rifle except Lanza. This was in stark contradiction to the earliest police media reports claiming that when Lanza was found he had 2 pistols on him and the bushmaster was in the boot of his car. This was later amended to 4 pistols. Then footage was captured by the media of the coppers 'finding' the supposed AR-15 in the boot...only problem was it was clearly and I mean CLEARLY a shotgun. This doesnt add up with the teachers claims that at least 100 rounds were let off in 2 minutes.

A similar thing happened with the Batman theatre shootings. Many survivers stated that a man was talking loudly on his mobile than stood up and opened a door that could be only opened from the inside to let the shooter in. There were also reports that gas canastas and shots were coming from "in front and behind us". There was also a second gas mask found in the back alley.

..and again with the temple shootings. People are on the record saying there were 4 white shooters dressed in black who entered the temple and began unloading.

I'm not sure where the benefit is in having a second shooter at Port Arthur. The witness accounts all support the conclusion that one lone nutter did all that.

No they dont…not all of them. There are many conflicting reports about where the shooter was at certain times. Forget about his apparent pin point accuracy (with a kill rate that special forces soldiers would envy), Martin Bryant was also able to be in two places shooting at the same time.

I dont fully buy into the theory that it is an organised effort to disarm the people...that is an unattainable aim. However there is more factors at play in nearly all of these massacres than what we are being fed. What I dont believe is that these cases are simply the fact that some loon wigged out and went on a rampage. That to me is utter garbage. These shootings have always been highly organised, well coordinated, methodical, succesful ventures that have delivered to us a loser patsy and a dozen mysteries.

 

[brk53y]

Stryker, it's a little bit off topic but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on 9/11.
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[happy_tiger]

2 questions now Stryker , I have heard the 2 shooters at Port Arthur rumours in the past

Have you read or seen any of the survivors stories that back those claims up ,I haven't ever seen any or read any and would be interested to hear their thoughts or reasons why ??

I imagine that most people in these situations first impulse is to run for their lives and have their backs to the shooter so most info would be scratchy at best

Its like a robbery , you think you know how you will react once you are robbed , but until it happens you have no idea and you react completely different than you thought

 

[Yossarian]

No they dont…not all of them. There are many conflicting reports about where the shooter was at certain times. Forget about his apparent pin point accuracy (with a kill rate that special forces soldiers would envy), Martin Bryant was also able to be in two places shooting at the same time.

I think you need to look at the police reports. For one thing this myth about him being some sort of sharpshooter is just that - a myth. Close to 2/3 of his victims were a few metres away in a confined space. To quote http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4253:

_Some conspiracy theorists claim that Bryant displayed extraordinary combat skills that could only belong to a highly trained expert, and not to an intellectually challenged kid with no firearms experience. One noted that the true perpetrator must be one of the top 10 or 20 shooters in the entire world. In fact Bryant displayed no special skills, killing nearly all of his victims within just a few meters, and some with the muzzle of his gun actually touching them._

This is supported by the police reports which I don't have time to dig up now. His accuracy is really not that impressive and about what you'd expect from someone with no training.

Many conflicting reports? Not from what I've read. Bryant was the only person conclusively identified as firing that day. It's not surprising that eye witnesses reports vary sharply. When a nutter is firing bullets everywhere you don't really have time to get a good look. Even is a best case scenario (no weapons, static witness) eye witness descriptions are notoriously poor.

On what basis was he in two places at one time? The official report is able to track Bryant's movements fairly precisely before during and after his time at Port Arthur.

Many witnesses said they saw the cops arrest a bloke in the woods whilst others said they saw at least one man in black fatigues wearing a bulletproof vest and ski mask. Not a single one of them identified this Lanza kid as the shooter.

Again this more a product of unreliable civillian witnesses and the tendency of news organisations to report every bit of information without checking for accuracy. It all seems pretty clear cut - Lanza shot himself as the police arrived. I really doubt another masked killer was able to shoot Lanza and evade police. Keep in mind these were local police too. I've not seen any mainstream news sites mention this ski mask dude…

A similar thing happened with the Batman theatre shootings. Many survivers stated that a man was talking loudly on his mobile than stood up and opened a door that could be only opened from the inside to let the shooter in. There were also reports that gas canastas and shots were coming from "in front and behind us". There was also a second gas mask found in the back alley.

I was in the US when this happened and didn't see any of those things reported. Here is what CNN http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2012/07/us/aurora.shooting/index.html says:

_Suspect James Holmes purchases a ticket and walks into the movie theater. He sneaks out an exit door and leaves it propped open, gathers his weapons and gear, and walks back into Theater 9 through the exit door._

That is, Holmes opened the door from inside and propped it open for himself to come back into the theatre. If you've seen reports (proper ones not conspiracy theorists) to support any of the other stuff I would like to see them. If you're indoors and people are running around like crazy and shots are going off you're not going to get good reports of where shots are coming from. In any case the early witness reports were sufficient for police to find Holmes who still had the gear he used with him.

 

[stryker]

Stryker, it's a little bit off topic but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on 9/11.
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That’s a very hot topic Brk53y that to this day still divides the planet. It will I am sure, open a can of worms on this forum as well if we go into it…Suffice to say, I like many untold numbers of people who don’t swallow what we are fed, do our own research and have our eyes open believe 100% that

the 9/11 attacks were an inside job… EVERY...DAY...OF...THE...WEEK.

In fact after 11 years now, we are still to be presented with any irrefutable evidence that Al Queada was involved whatsoever.

The way that those 3 buildings came down was laughable. Laughable that is if almost 3000 people hadn’t perished along with them.

Bush and his administration knew about the attacks previous to that day. Bush was caught on camera saying that he saw the 1st plane hit the north tower. The whole world saw the 2nd plane hit. None of us saw the 1st hit. He knew.

I have read over 30 books on the attacks and they all contain the same line of thought….Osama Bin Laden was a patsy, the towers were demolished – not from plane hits but from explosives….tower 7 was untouched and still collapsed and the Bush family and the Bin Laden’s were extremely tight. The 19 ‘high-jackers’ were fake - not a single one of them appear on any flight manifest and at least 7 have been tracked down and interviewed by the BBC and the Guardian in the UK since they apparently died that day.

Just on tower 7, Larry Silverstein who had the 99 year lease on the WTC complex, gave an interview where he stated he made the decision to pull the building down. It was demolished around 5.30pm on September 11\. This implies that he had prior knowledge of the attacks as well otherwise how did he organise the explosives to be installed to ‘pull’ the tower in less than a day with NYC in a state of utter chaos? It is not even remotely possible. The story was eventually changed during the 9/11 commission to state that tower 7 was irreparably damaged due to trough fire from debris following the plane hits. BS!

I believe that 9/11 was a false flag operation that set up Bin laden and Al Queada and this was followed by months of psy-ops where the western world was bombarded with a campaign of fear….we had a number of tapes saying more attacks were to come from Bin Laden, everything was a potential target. Every day there was new reports about biological and nuclear WMD’s that were being made to destroy us all. This resulted in the ongoing war on terror that saw America and its allies perform an unprovoked attack on Iraq…meanwhile the so called head of the snake Osama Bin Laden evaded capture for a decade.

The whole thing was a lie. It still is.

 

[Glen_McWilliams]

There is no shortage of retarded conspiracy theories, and theorists, all over the internet.
This is just from a very simple search:

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/12/16/sandy-hook-shooting-discrepancies-not-conspiracies-yet/

and a summation/debunking

http://gawker.com/5969532/the-insane-sandy-hook-conspiracy-theories-that-are-already-flooding-facebook-and-twitter
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/12/newtown-shooting-conspiracy-theories/60126/

Some people really need to get a life. You will always have conflicting detail in eye witness accounts because of the enormous stress and mayhem of the situation. These are average people at a school witnessing kids being massacred, they aren't going to get up close to look at the serial number or branding on the shooter's weapon. They are not trained to deal with this kind of situation. But still the chin scratchers will off to their blogs to pick apart any possible inconsistency and immedaitely link that to a higher, more sinister motive, other than that of a mentally deranged kid with easy access to an arsenal. If that's what you need to do to feel good about yourself I feel sorry for you.

And to critique a parent's grief reaction? I really don't know how to respond to that.

The internet is a great place for gathering and sharing knowledge but it really is hijacked by some cretins.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

I watched a documentary the other day on the National Geographic channel regarding memories. They selected a panel of people and staged a bag snatching and then sat those people down in a group and asked them all to recall certain details of the event, some details more obvious (such as the crime itself,) others more specific (certain items of clothing the perpetrator and victim were wearing.) They all had different eyewitness accounts as your memory omits details, changes your recollection and even creates false memories, particularly under stressful conditions.

Let's not forget that the media in this day and age indulge in extreme sensationalism and are not above reporting incorrect facts and speculation as legitimate news. Whenever events like this happen, they will run with whatever tidbits of "information" that they have at hand simply for the sake of having something to report, leading to a poor representation of actual events which eventually give birth to conspiracy theories.

Anders Breivik blew up 8 people in one place and shot 69 others 40km away within the space of two hours, and that version of events is widely accepted. Why is it so hard for people to believe that one disturbed person could shoot 20 children and 6 adults in the one place? The kids were 5 or 6 years old, not quite fully equipped with the same survival instincts as an adolescent or adult, they would have been sitting ducks.

America had a very frightening attitude and culture towards firearms and as such is a place where just about ANYONE can get their hands on an automatic weapon. When people with mental illnesses & violent streaks have access to that sort of weaponry in a country where a gun culture is promoted, tragedies like Aurora, Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech & Columbine are begging to happen.

 

[Yossarian]

There is no shortage of retarded conspiracy theories, and theorists, all over the internet.
This is just from a very simple search:

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/12/16/sandy-hook-shooting-discrepancies-not-conspiracies-yet/

and a summation/debunking

http://gawker.com/5969532/the-insane-sandy-hook-conspiracy-theories-that-are-already-flooding-facebook-and-twitter
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/12/newtown-shooting-conspiracy-theories/60126/

Some people really need to get a life. You will always have conflicting detail in eye witness accounts because of the enormous stress and mayhem of the situation. These are average people at a school witnessing kids being massacred, they aren't going to get up close to look at the serial number or branding on the shooter's weapon. They are not trained to deal with this kind of situation. But still the chin scratchers will off to their blogs to pick apart any possible inconsistency and immedaitely link that to a higher, more sinister motive, other than that of a mentally deranged kid with easy access to an arsenal. If that's what you need to do to feel good about yourself I feel sorry for you.

And to critique a parent's grief reaction? I really don't know how to respond to that.

The internet is a great place for gathering and sharing knowledge but it really is hijacked by some cretins.

Correct Glen. I don't have time to go through, point-by-point, the analysis of 9/11 crackpot theories above but the topic was discussed in another thread so brk53y might want to check that out. Just quickly, there is a stack of evidence that Al Qaeda were involved, in particular from AQ members.
Larry Silverstein did not say in an interview that he wanted the buildings pulled down. The exact quote is this:

_"I remember getting a call from the fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse."_

He has explained subsequently that he meant, pull the operation to save the building, that is withdraw the firefighters before the building collapsed. There are a stack of reports from various agencies that set out the facts with regards to that building collapsing. There is zero evidence that explosives were involved. He's also still paying $102 mil a year rent on the place.

The evidence supporting the timeline of a group of hijackers boarding planes and flying them into buildings is, IMO, extremely conclusive and frankly not worth debating. All this talk of holograms and explosives is just tin foil stuff.

 

[brk53y]

Yoss I can see how he has been misquoted there. But like Stryker I don't believe everything we have been fed. How can 3 buildings fall in nearly identical fashion, one without being hit by a plane? I am not convinced by the official explanation. Ill try and dig it up later when I have time, but I have read that independent testing of the dust left over from the collapse ( or demolition, depending which way you look at it ) had traces of explosives in it, thermite if I remember correctly. The other thing I find odd is what happened at the pentagon. That place would possibly have to be one of the heaviest guarded places on earth. And yet no footage of a plane hitting there? I'm not suggesting that it was a missile or spy plane or whatever, but how can that possibly not be on tape? The video that was released does nothing to convince me that it was an American Airlines passenger jet.
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[stryker]

LOL Yoss my closed minded friend… my "crackpot" theories have every bit as much evidence as do your "crackpot" beliefs that a bunch of goat farmers managed to infiltrate America, learn to fly there and pulled off one the most astonishing acts of terrorism ever seen without the yanks knowing a damned thing about it.

I agree it is not worth debating, you seem 100% convinced that the powers that be have your best interests at heart....IMO that is a sign of lunacy.

 

[brk53y]

Mysteries of the twin towers
[Www.seattle911visibilityproject.org](http://Www.seattle911visibilityproject.org)
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[Yossarian]

There is footage of the plane hitting the Pentagon. The plane was moving at a considerable speed before it hit the building which was a bit beyond the ability of the cameras to capture it. It's unfortunate that you're not convinced - perhaps you can discuss this with the relatives of the passengers on that flight.

It's not a matter of being "fed" anything. It's about a careful analysis of facts in order to work out the most logical explanation for things happening. WTC 7 damaged by the fallout from two planes hitting the tallest buildings in the USA at full speed. Debris caused it to catch on fire without any means of effective controlling it.

The buildings fell in "identical" fashion because they had the same basic problem - a catestrophic failure of the building's structural integrity causing successive floors to collapse onto the one below it. Fire is pretty powerful force on metal not designed to withstanding that sort of intense heat over an extended period. In any case it is not merely government reports, pretty much every reputable engineer dismisses the explosives theory as implausable.

Take any incident and look at a few details in isolation and you can come up with any number of theories. Consider the evidence as a whole and the true picture emerges.

1 - Al Qaeda (or variants thereof) had previously tried to destroy the WTC buildings.
2 - There is considerable information about the hijackers entering the USA and attending flight schools.
3 - There is footage of the hijackers passive through security etc
4 - There is audio and other evidence of the actual hijackings.
5 - Those 4 planes are not accounted for apart from the evidence they crashed or were ditched. Same for the people on board.
6 - A large number of witnesses sighted the planes in various locations. The two that hit the WTC were captured on film.
7 - Captured AQ suspects have given details that support the above.

 

[Yossarian]

LOL Yoss my closed minded friend… my "crackpot" theories have every bit as much evidence as do your "crackpot" beliefs that a bunch of goat farmers managed to infiltrate America, learn to fly there and pulled off one the most astonishing acts of terrorism ever seen without the yanks knowing a damned thing about it.

I agree it is not worth debating, you seem 100% convinced that the powers that be have your best interests at heart....IMO that is a sign of lunacy.

Not really. Mine are based on evidence rather than psuedo-science and conjecture. What exactly is your evidence? An ambiguous quote from the owner of one of the WTC buildings? Where have all the missing passengers gone? Which one of the 19 was a goat farmer? The Americans had information about a planned attack but didn't connect the dots in time.

Your last sentence is a stretch. I'm simply discussing these events - to expand it further is really not helpful. I'm sceptical enough about the intentions of government but rejecting facts in favour of fantasy isn't lunacy.

 

[brk53y]

Discuss it with the relatives? Lol. Your taking me the wrong way mate. Just as there is evidence that nut job hi jackers ploughed planes into the towers with the intent of murdering as many innocent people as they could, there is also evidence that there was explosives in the building. I've read quite a few statements from various experts, engineers, mechanical engineers and demolition experts that say they have no doubt that explosives were used to bring down those buildings. Why are you so quick to dismiss their theories but accept the official explanation? Just watching the video of the towers collapsing, it seems there are Explosions happening well below where the collapse is happening. I Dont know what those explosions are but it Doesnt make sense to me.I'm aware that both towers suffered massive structural damage. But how both can fall perfectly on top of itself doesn't make sense to me either.
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[Newtown]

More Interesting Theories;

1\. The footage of Americans landing on the moon was fake.
2\. Lee Harvey Oswald did not shoot President Kennedy.
3\. Elvis and Hitler are both still alove and living somewhere in South America

 

[stryker]

I think you need to look at the police reports. For one thing this myth about him being some sort of sharpshooter is just that - a myth. Close to 2/3 of his victims were a few metres away in a confined space. To quote http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4253:

Please tell me you have more evidence to back up your claims than the rantings of some blogger???? Witnesses…EYE witnesses said the shooter shot from the hip from a distance at or above 12 feet. I dont know if you have any weapons experience mate but that is remarkable shooting to hit so many head targets aiming like this.

I was in the US when this happened and didn't see any of those things reported. Here is what CNN http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2012/07/us/aurora.shooting/index.html says:

_Suspect James Holmes purchases a ticket and walks into the movie theater. He sneaks out an exit door and leaves it propped open, gathers his weapons and gear, and walks back into Theater 9 through the exit door._

That is, Holmes opened the door from inside and propped it open for himself to come back into the theatre. If you've seen reports (proper ones not conspiracy theorists) to support any of the other stuff I would like to see them. If you're indoors and people are running around like crazy and shots are going off you're not going to get good reports of where shots are coming from. In any case the early witness reports were sufficient for police to find Holmes who still had the gear he used with him.

Here is a couple of news grabs that I was able to find searching for only a couple of minutes.

http://youtu.be/kXxYQBwo7aU

http://youtu.be/k-GvVRvrLkE

http://youtu.be/EEXn1RHRYok

http://youtu.be/QpbPy7TKe7E

http://youtu.be/W1-T5XkC7Cc
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I dont know how you can sit there claim that everything is as it seems. Taking the media reports as gospel is very dangerous.

 

[Yossarian]

As I've said it is not the "explanation" I'm talking about, it is the basic evidence. To quote one academic review who state that the fact fire and the impact of the planes caused the eventual failure is:

"generally accepted by the community of specialists in structural mechanics and structural engineering though not by a few outsiders claiming a conspiracy with planted explosives"

The "evidence" for explosives is limited to a substance that might be found in explosives but which is also used in the construction process.

Why am I so quick to dismiss them? Because of seen the footage of the planes hitting the building and I've read a lot of the witness accounts and the evidence. And the vast majority if not all the conspiracy "evidence" falls apart on examination.

The buildings fell on top of itself because the internal structure was weakened. It is the same theory as an implosion but it was the heat from the fire combined with the damage done by the plane. The momentum is pushing down. I'm sorry but to suggest planes didn't hit the building is tin foil stuff.

 

[stryker]

LOL Yoss my closed minded friend… my "crackpot" theories have every bit as much evidence as do your "crackpot" beliefs that a bunch of goat farmers managed to infiltrate America, learn to fly there and pulled off one the most astonishing acts of terrorism ever seen without the yanks knowing a damned thing about it.

I agree it is not worth debating, you seem 100% convinced that the powers that be have your best interests at heart....IMO that is a sign of lunacy.

Not really. Mine are based on evidence rather than psuedo-science and conjecture. What exactly is your evidence? An ambiguous quote from the owner of one of the WTC buildings? Where have all the missing passengers gone? Which one of the 19 was a goat farmer? The Americans had information about a planned attack but didn't connect the dots in time.

Your last sentence is a stretch. I'm simply discussing these events - to expand it further is really not helpful. I'm sceptical enough about the intentions of government but rejecting facts in favour of fantasy isn't lunacy.

Yeah right. There is every bit as much evidence that explosives were used. Those towers fell unnaturally and extremely quickly. Have you seen schematics of how the building was built? I will try and find them for you. There is no way with the layout of the structural steel that those buildings could have fallen like they did. If anything the tops would have tilted and toppled over. They fell perfectly - all 3 of them. WTC 7 was nowhere near as damaged as the other two and it fell identically.

..and you really believe that the US government, who spend billions yearly on national security and counter intelligence, who have thousands of field agents and undercover operatives "couldnt connect the dots in time"? Give me a break.

 

[brk53y]

Your right yoss to suggest planes didn't hit the towers is ridiculous. I don't buy into the laser weapons theory either. But I don't believe that the damage from the planes is what causes the towers to fall
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[Yossarian]

I think you need to look at the police reports. For one thing this myth about him being some sort of sharpshooter is just that - a myth. Close to 2/3 of his victims were a few metres away in a confined space. To quote [http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4253](http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4253):

Please tell me you have more evidence to back up your claims than the rantings of some blogger???? Witnesses…EYE witnesses said the shooter shot from the hip from a distance at or above 12 feet. I dont know if you have any weapons experience mate but that is remarkable shooting to hit so many head targets aiming like this.

I was in the US when this happened and didn't see any of those things reported. Here is what CNN http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2012/07/us/aurora.shooting/index.html says:

_Suspect James Holmes purchases a ticket and walks into the movie theater. He sneaks out an exit door and leaves it propped open, gathers his weapons and gear, and walks back into Theater 9 through the exit door._

That is, Holmes opened the door from inside and propped it open for himself to come back into the theatre. If you've seen reports (proper ones not conspiracy theorists) to support any of the other stuff I would like to see them. If you're indoors and people are running around like crazy and shots are going off you're not going to get good reports of where shots are coming from. In any case the early witness reports were sufficient for police to find Holmes who still had the gear he used with him.

Here is a couple of news grabs that I was able to find searching for only a couple of minutes.

http://youtu.be/kXxYQBwo7aU

http://youtu.be/k-GvVRvrLkE

http://youtu.be/EEXn1RHRYok

http://youtu.be/QpbPy7TKe7E

http://youtu.be/W1-T5XkC7Cc
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I dont know how you can sit there claim that everything is as it seems. Taking the media reports as gospel is very dangerous.

I didn't say I took media reports as gospel but the CNN report is based on the police account.

Bryant killed what 35 people? 2 before he went to PA and 2 or 3 afterwards? Out of the other 30 or so people, 20 of them were killed in the small rooms where he started from a metre or so away. Where is this other guy? Who put him up to it? Why is there no solid evidence?

Give me a break will you? Martin Bryant killed those people… By himself...
You can believe a conspiracy if you want. Maybe Elvis shot them. Or Lord Lucan.