The halves problem

[TIGERS]

You just highlighted all my points while trying to say they were wrong lol. You are only seeing the highlight plays, plays which Doueihi has a lot of because he is a very good player. Your not seeing the importance of the subtle ones just like AD Doesn't and thats why he isnt a 7.

I like Doueihi. I think he is a very good player. He simply isnt a 7. His kicking game is great because he had 2 good kicks when under no pressure??? Lol, thats a terrible argument mate. Under any sort of pressure his kicking are average, not bad, but not good either. Adam Doueihi is a very important part of this team IMO, but as a first choice 7 he is sitting at 16th or 17th in the comp.

He can play a good role for us as a 6, 3, or off the bench

I see just fine. Your points are wrong. Just because I highlight one thing to make a point doesn't mean I completely ignore another. You're making a really boring and pointless straw man argument. Maybe you can pitch an NRL Lowlights package to Fox and you can make clips of Mitchell Moses subtly milking penalties and playing short balls to his front rowers coming out of possession.

AD can absolutely play halfback. To say he wasn't under pressure taking kicks against the Rabbitohs is really strange. We dominated possession and field position from AD's kicking. Lost count of how many times we kept possession after knock ons from his kicks. We were losing and going nowhere in the 1st half. His kick changed the game out of nowhere. He and Api got sh1t going individually for us and you can't ask for much more than that from your senior pros. Ideally if Bula was as good as his writeups on here he'd have contributed couple of legit moments too and then we wouldn't even be having this argument.

Besides, why the hell would you say that AD should play 6 when we have an all time great in Luai to play in that position. It's the classic WT Forum fetish of eternal, banal ruminating over what is or isn't a 6 or 7, and blaming our halves for everything while we are turning up to games completely outclassed by our opponents outside backs. Without strike we are just going to be way, way too easy to read and easy to stop.

Did you notice that we got beat by Bud Sullivan, who IS a 16th place halfback. Why? Because their outside backs outgunned ours in and out of possession.

 

[king_sirro]

I see just fine. Your points are wrong. Just because I highlight one thing to make a point doesn't mean I completely ignore another. You're making a really boring and pointless straw man argument. Maybe you can pitch an NRL Lowlights package to Fox and you can make clips of Mitchell Moses subtly milking penalties and playing short balls to his front rowers coming out of possession.

AD can absolutely play halfback. To say he wasn't under pressure taking kicks against the Rabbitohs is really strange. We dominated possession and field position from AD's kicking. Lost count of how many times we kept possession after knock ons from his kicks. We were losing and going nowhere in the 1st half. His kick changed the game out of nowhere. He and Api got sh1t going individually for us and you can't ask for much more than that from your senior pros. Ideally if Bula was as good as his writeups on here he'd have contributed couple of legit moments too and then we wouldn't even be having this argument.

Besides, why the hell would you say that AD should play 6 when we have an all time great in Luai to play in that position. It's the classic WT Forum fetish of eternal, banal ruminating over what is or isn't a 6 or 7, and blaming our halves for everything while we are turning up to games completely outclassed by our opponents outside backs. Without strike we are just going to be way, way too easy to read and easy to stop.

Did you notice that we got beat by Bud Sullivan, who IS a 16th place halfback. Why? Because their outside backs outgunned ours in and out of possession.

Why should i bother engaging if your not gonna read what i write. Not once i said AD should play 6, not once did I say he was not under pressure for all his kicks against Souths. My points about him as a 7 are all 100% correct. His kicking game when under pressure isnt as good as we need, he doesn't square up the defence enough, he doesn't organise enough to put shape on. You keep harping on about one kick, and yep, it was a great kick and its a weapon we should use no matter what position he is playing. My take on him as a halfback doesn't mean he isnt a very good player, and it doesn't mean he cant have a lot of good games at 7 like he did against a pathetic Cowboys team. Howevere, it does mean we won't beat any good teams that are switched defensively because we have no way of breaking them down with his style at 7 .

Everything you have mentioned about Doueihi as a footballer in general i agree with.

Theres not much worse on this forum when someone twists and misrepresents what you wrote to win an argument, its pathetic when guys like you do that. Read the post, respond to what is actually written.

You really tried to bring Sullivan in to make your point? Lol....he came off the bench.

 

[innsaneink]

Looking like it.may be
6 Latu
7 AD
According to one of the pods

 

[Vicious]

Looking like it.may be
6 Latu
7 AD
According to one of the pods

Geez I hope not, we desperately need to see Jock Madden at 7, either Latu or Doueihi at 6 and the other at 14.

 

[tig_prmz]

He is a terrible halfback. Doesn't position the team to create good shape, has a rushed and average kicking game, struggles to play straight and create space for runners, and finally, he doesn't have the mindset for 7. IMO your halfback needs to get pleasure out of others taking the limelight. Someone who's purpose is to do subtle things that go unnoticed to some, but create opportunities for others. Its my belief AD is the one who wants the big plays, not the little subtle plays. Your 7 needs to be a 100% team player and Doueihi is not that. I can see him as a 6, but most definitely not a 7. In fact, out of all 17 clubs first choice 7, he is by far the worst.

A bit harsh there.

He's not your typical halfback, but we have close to $3m invested in our 1,6 and 9. We are paying our back up half $500k a year, for what he's probably getting paid, he's providing enough so far.

Every team needs to adapt to the squad they have. AD has a good kicking game, can execute 3 on 2s and defends reasonably well. Are we going to win the comp with him there, probably not, but he's the best halfback at this club right now.

Luai and Api need to be the ones organising the team around and getting AD in a good kicking position. Yes, it's up to AD to put himself there, but getting the support runners, blockers etc ready should be Api and Luai's job as much as it's AD.

Is that the ideal way to do it? No. But based on the squad we have, that's what we need. Luai and Api have the runs and the brains on the board to carry out 4th and 5th tackle options whereas AD has the skill.

I would have agreed with you at the start of last year that AD has selfish plays in him, but off late, he has actually walked the talk and gotten rid of risky cut out balls or hospital passes. If he's doing the big play, it's usually at a time when we need something to happen, not in the first 20-30 minutes of each half.

 

[tig_prmz]

You just highlighted all my points while trying to say they were wrong lol. You are only seeing the highlight plays, plays which Doueihi has a lot of because he is a very good player. Your not seeing the importance of the subtle ones just like AD Doesn't and thats why he isnt a 7.

I like Doueihi. I think he is a very good player. He simply isnt a 7. His kicking game is great because he had 2 good kicks when under no pressure??? Lol, thats a terrible argument mate. Under any sort of pressure his kicking are average, not bad, but not good either. Adam Doueihi is a very important part of this team IMO, but as a first choice 7 he is sitting at 16th or 17th in the comp.

He can play a good role for us as a 6, 3, or off the bench

But that's true for every single halfback if they're kicking from the 40m and backwards except Moses and Cleary.

The issue is that he doesn't put himself and other in a good enough position for that kick. But, it shouldn't be just up to him when we have much better players in Luai and Api doing that.

Mitch Kenny is probably sitting at 11th or 12th best hooker in the comp but he's doing his job every single day.

No one else in the team has the boot AD does and we don't have the money to buy someone.

 

[king_sirro]

But that's true for every single halfback if they're kicking from the 40m and backwards except Moses and Cleary.

The issue is that he doesn't put himself and other in a good enough position for that kick. But, it shouldn't be just up to him when we have much better players in Luai and Api doing that.

Mitch Kenny is probably sitting at 11th or 12th best hooker in the comp but he's doing his job every single day.

No one else in the team has the boot AD does and we don't have the money to buy someone.

Madden has a better boot beside the torpedo bomb that AD does every now and then. Appreciate your fair critique and opinion

 

[Tiger Stripes]

Geez I hope not, we desperately need to see Jock Madden at 7, either Latu or Doueihi at 6 and the other at 14.

That 8 point try by Maka was not because of a brilliant kick by AD----it was a dropped catch by Souths player No 20 whoever that was. Pure arse.
King Siro is the only one that sees the lack of management without those rose-coloured glasses on.
AD and Luai had no management skills to get passed the Souths defence. No plan B.
How long were we camped in the red zone with no points. That's lack of management!
Madden 7. Management, goal kicker, long -low kicks to grass [because they are strong and low they get there quicker and harder for defenders to cover them], close in bombs or kicks behind the defence.
Give him a go. If it fails, we tried. My judgement was wrong.
Doueihi or Latu 6 or Andrews

 

[Vicious]

Madden has a better boot beside the torpedo bomb that AD does every now and then. Appreciate your fair critique and opinion

Jock Madden playing with structure and digging into the line should really compliment and bring out the best of the very good running games of either Douehi or Latu.

 

[Lestronge]

I see just fine. Your points are wrong. Just because I highlight one thing to make a point doesn't mean I completely ignore another. You're making a really boring and pointless straw man argument. Maybe you can pitch an NRL Lowlights package to Fox and you can make clips of Mitchell Moses subtly milking penalties and playing short balls to his front rowers coming out of possession.

AD can absolutely play halfback. To say he wasn't under pressure taking kicks against the Rabbitohs is really strange. We dominated possession and field position from AD's kicking. Lost count of how many times we kept possession after knock ons from his kicks. We were losing and going nowhere in the 1st half. His kick changed the game out of nowhere. He and Api got sh1t going individually for us and you can't ask for much more than that from your senior pros. Ideally if Bula was as good as his writeups on here he'd have contributed couple of legit moments too and then we wouldn't even be having this argument.

Besides, why the hell would you say that AD should play 6 when we have an all time great in Luai to play in that position. It's the classic WT Forum fetish of eternal, banal ruminating over what is or isn't a 6 or 7, and blaming our halves for everything while we are turning up to games completely outclassed by our opponents outside backs. Without strike we are just going to be way, way too easy to read and easy to stop.

Did you notice that we got beat by Bud Sullivan, who IS a 16th place halfback. Why? Because their outside backs outgunned ours in and out of possession.

What do you mean we got beat by Sullivan ? I’m confused by that ? Because he did noting . It’s like saying Alex Seyfarth beat the cowboys ../ actually Seyfarth has a way better case for that to be true .

 

[tig_prmz]

Jock Madden playing with structure and digging into the line should really compliment and bring out the best of the very good running games of either Douehi or Latu.

Digging into the line works if you're a genuine threat. I don't think Madden is a threat like AD.

Madden has a better short kicking game (which usually Luai does) but AD is better long kicking.

However, our structure relies heavily on offload, quick PTB or tackle busting instead of genuine sweeping backline plays.

Our structure has Luai staying on L and AD on R most of the time. The sweeping backline plays happen when the PTB is on one edge of the field. For those times, I'd still want AD to learn how to straighten the line instead of Madden who's not a genuine threat and the defence will just keep sliding. Madden doesn't have the slight of hand or deception that you need for a halfback.

In pure terms, I agree that Madden is more of a traditional halfback but with Luai at 5/8, you need someone who's going to attract defenders and give Luai space. And when the PTB is on the L, you need someone who's able to take advantage of the space created by Luai's deception at first receiver.

 

[Lestronge]

That 8 point try by Maka was not because of a brilliant kick by AD----it was a dropped catch by Souths player No 20 whoever that was. Pure arse.
King Siro is the only one that sees the lack of management without those rose-coloured glasses on.
AD and Luai had no management skills to get passed the Souths defence. No plan B.
How long were we camped in the red zone with no points. That's lack of management!
Madden 7. Management, goal kicker, long -low kicks to grass [because they are strong and low they get there quicker and harder for defenders to cover them], close in bombs or kicks behind the defence.
Give him a go. If it fails, we tried. My judgement was wrong.
Doueihi or Latu 6 or Andrews

I think there was management , it just wasn’t traditional .. so it looked clunky .
The reason I say this is because the forwards worked towards the right spot , shifts happened when they should , had chances the ball got to where the gap is etc. that’s what actual game management is . Thats what there talking about . And it’s different for every team.
Like the Storm game manage for getting thier forwards to thier front , and leaving bodies on the floor .. for grant to jump out , and then the team goes off the back of that working towards exploited tired defences to usually kick to the edges if the breaks don’t happen . They score a lot of kicks behind retreating defences . But it starts in the ruck with grant .
The broncos Play the pretty monotonous IMO, work towards exploiting Walsh on block plays where he’s attacking the 3 man , hoping the 4 is lazy coming across . So they build towards that looking to get to right hand post on a quick play the ball , get another guy off the ruck to find his front , then sweep . Thats all managed by Reynolds .
We seem confused IMO , we have the cattle and skill to play like Storm adjacent , but because we have soo much strike down our left , we seem to be way too keen to run that block shape . Especially when everyone is fit and it’s a left edge of Masi, may , luai, Fainu , maybe AD or Latu at 13/7 interchangeable , with Bula sweeping . Thats chefs kiss dangerous . But like on Saturday , if we don’t have the cattle all out there and a great defender , we don’t have a plan B. Which IMO , should be simply ruck through the middle forward constantly playing short and getting in behind the ruck , and just running teams into the ground . Eventually one of two things happen . The edges compress or gaps appear . I think we did that for maybe minute 25-60 ish and we came back in the game , but when we were chasing points , we went away from it looking to hit the edges . I think we should have been patient and kept grinding . But ultimately you’re right that’s on AD , who started to chase the game , after that last try .

 

[wstigers11]

That 8 point try by Maka was not because of a brilliant kick by AD----it was a dropped catch by Souths player No 20 whoever that was. Pure arse.
King Siro is the only one that sees the lack of management without those rose-coloured glasses on.
AD and Luai had no management skills to get passed the Souths defence. No plan B.
How long were we camped in the red zone with no points. That's lack of management!
Madden 7. Management, goal kicker, long -low kicks to grass [because they are strong and low they get there quicker and harder for defenders to cover them], close in bombs or kicks behind the defence.
Give him a go. If it fails, we tried. My judgement was wrong.
Doueihi or Latu 6 or Andrews

Totally get what you’re saying about the halves but that bomb was absolutely on purpose. It’s a low percentage play which is why AD doesn’t do it often - like just Burton’s. Gotta give credit there.

 

[Vicious]

Digging into the line works if you're a genuine threat. I don't think Madden is a threat like AD.

Madden has a better short kicking game (which usually Luai does) but AD is better long kicking.

However, our structure relies heavily on offload, quick PTB or tackle busting instead of genuine sweeping backline plays.

Our structure has Luai staying on L and AD on R most of the time. The sweeping backline plays happen when the PTB is on one edge of the field. For those times, I'd still want AD to learn how to straighten the line instead of Madden who's not a genuine threat and the defence will just keep sliding. Madden doesn't have the slight of hand or deception that you need for a halfback.

In pure terms, I agree that Madden is more of a traditional halfback but with Luai at 5/8, you need someone who's going to attract defenders and give Luai space. And when the PTB is on the L, you need someone who's able to take advantage of the space created by Luai's deception at first receiver.

Yeah I’m not convinced Luai is the most suitable style of 5/8 to play alongside Doueihi at 7.
They will work at times as they did against the Cowboys when everything went our way, but they could be a problem when trying to breakdown a well structured defence.
As I keep saying Jock Madden if played at 7 and allowed to take control should be perfect to unlock the very good running games of either Latu or AD.
I think we all agree Latu is our halve with the most potential, but due to AD spending the whole offseason in the halves, it is probably fair to keep him at 5/8 while Luai is out injured and ease Latu back into it initially as our 14.
In saying this I would like to see Latu at 6 with Jock at 7, it just looks to be a perfect halves combination.

 

[Telltails]

Crikey the trust in Jock has certainly shifted on here compared to when he was signed. I maintain few teams have their attack working atm with plenty of talented combos not clicking and the fatigue factor taking it's toll. And while Jock is a solid replacement any expectation that he will provide some significant improvement is premature imo

 

[stevied]

The ideal scenario would be he has a week off, Jock and Latu light it up in the halves, and AD spends the rest of the year at right centre.

or at 13

 

[Lestronge]

Totally get what you’re saying about the halves but that bomb was absolutely on purpose. It’s a low percentage play which is why AD doesn’t do it often - like just Burton’s. Gotta give credit there.

I think the issue is definitions . Some people say game management is controlling the team and getting them around the field , others say it’s controlling the tempo and getting the ball to the right spot , kicking to corners etc.
I don’t think the latter is game management . I thinks it’s defined wrong . I think that’s more outcome management , and usually it’s either employed Flanno style from the first whistle … which I think doesn’t work anymore like it did in when the nrl could have rebadged to Gracie Barra in the 2010s, or when the game is on the line like when we got back to 16 all.
I think guys are having an issue with ADs ability to manage outcomes . Guys like Cooper Cronk made a career on it . Even really Cleary .

 

[Tom Shines]

Crikey the trust in Jock has certainly shifted on here compared to when he was signed. I maintain few teams have their attack working atm with plenty of talented combos not clicking and the fatigue factor taking it's toll. And while Jock is a solid replacement any expectation that he will provide some significant improvement is premature imo

Yeah ..I agree with this …now he is gunna be our $350k a year saviour,,,.No pressure Jock..😂

Also ..all offseason no one wanted a bar of Latu in the starting halves…he was looked upon as bench only …how quickly things can change

 

[tig_prmz]

Crikey the trust in Jock has certainly shifted on here compared to when he was signed. I maintain few teams have their attack working atm with plenty of talented combos not clicking and the fatigue factor taking it's toll. And while Jock is a solid replacement any expectation that he will provide some significant improvement is premature imo

Agreed

 

[Chunk]

If AD has trained there all pre season then he deserves more then two games. On paper he seems to have all the attributes to be a good half but thats on paper.

If not give Madden a go, he is an out and out halfback but I can't be as confindent as others because of two trial games against reserve grade teams. He also will need to of improved a fair bit from when he was here last time, we hope so.

He may well have but he is obviously the second string halfback, he would be starting now if he wasn't