The LEICHHARDT Myth

[innsaneink]

No.
They only go to L.O.
Non travellers

That's crap and you know it.

Gee… You really proved me wrong Russell.
We've had people on here admit they only attend one venue... Don't know why you cannot accept it

Your talking about 17,000 that were at Leichhardt not going to CSS - how do you know that?

However you state a few people on here don't go to CSS ????

I'll accept it if you can give me the evidence that the 17,000 yesterday won't go to CSS Ink.

No, Im not talking about 17,000, not all of them, a percentage….I didnt think that needed clarifying though if your argument is weak i guess youll try and twist things.
There is a %age of fans that dont...both ways
Its clear the inner west has a larger fan base going on crowd averages.
I was involved in Balmain JRL for over 10 years and many people I knew only attended LO, some had never been to a game at CSS, people here have admitted it.
Its obvious the fanbase is split, we have memberships that cater for this for christs sake.
Its as plain as the nose on your face.
We are supposed to be one but we are not...we go where it suits us, the club caters for this having many grounds and even more membership options.
If we ALL went to ALL the games at ALL the grounds then the figures would be roughly ALL the same, but theyre not.
You dont have to be Einstein to figure out why
:deadhorse:

 

[Glennb]

Is three finals appearances in 19 season good? Come off it.

No of course not, but you said we would not make finals **_because of Leichhardt_**. Didnt matter those years obviously.

I am not saying anything is wrong with yesterdays event/crowd. I am saying those days come around every few years. We run at a loss playing at LO and CSS. We cant expect anything to change while we continue to lose money.

We do not lose money at Leichhardt. Break even is about 11K, we are averaging 13K over the last 3 years. This year we are averaging 15K at Leichhardt when we are averaging 17K all grounds. There is a _potential_ opportunity cost in that potentially we could get a bigger deal with ANZ if the Leichhardt / CSS games were at ANZ but that is not a a real cost as we have an existing firm lump sum deal for 5 years. As Ive said a few times there are also positives for Leichhardt (Leichhardt only members, Sunday arvo blow ins etc).

You say we would have got less at Homebush, but thats a guess. Since 2004 weve averaged 18k at Homebush and 12k at LO.
Do you think 3 home grounds in Sydney makes sense?

Not really a guess. This time last year we got 9000 at CSS for the same game. We average 18k at Homebush but what you have to realise is all of our "high draw" games are at Homebush. Local derbies, games v Sydney teams where opposition numbers turn up etc. We usually play the easter monday game v Parra at Homebush where we get so many walk ins from the Easter Show, there was 30K there for that game this year. Leichhardt & CSS are usually kept for playing low drawing out of town oppositions (Dragons this year a weird anomaly). When you take into account the high draw games at ANZ v out of towners at Leichhardt and we average 18K at Homebush & 15K at leichhardt (this year), i'd argue that Leichhardt is beating Homebush for attendance.

I think in the future, there will come a time when the benefits of Leichhardt are offset by potential crowds elsewhere. For that to happen we would have to be averaging 30k at ANZ and every game a sell out at Leichhardt. But we are not there yet. If you took leichhardt away now it would be a negative once you strip out the Leichhardt only members, Sunday arvo event goers and the marketing goodwill. Potentially the Western Sydney Stadium may be the catalyst but bear in mind ANZ stadium own the WSS and they may not be happy to give up a 5year contracted tenant at Homebush.

The elephant in the room in this discussion about the merits of Leichhardt is CSS. I have intentionally not mentioned it because to do so invites division and this shouldnt be Wests v Balmain or Leichhardt v CSS but whilst Leichhardt is averaging 15K, CSS is averaging 10K over the same period and 9.5K over the last two years. This is not sustainable and ultimately the two grounds will be lumped together and if CSS continues to perform poorly it will probably be the cause of the end of Leichhardt.

This is genuinely not a divisive point. As a Tigers fan I want Leichhardt to continue and I would love CSS to outstrip it and I hope that crowds there can pick up. (Yes I go to both)

 

[Glennb]

60% win rate doesnt offset the money we lose by playing there.

Whilst we are averaging 15K, we are NOT losing money there. Simply not true.

 

[gallagher]

Is three finals appearances in 19 season good? Come off it.

No of course not, but you said we would not make finals **_because of Leichhardt_**. Didnt matter those years obviously.

I am not saying anything is wrong with yesterdays event/crowd. I am saying those days come around every few years. We run at a loss playing at LO and CSS. We cant expect anything to change while we continue to lose money.

We do not lose money at Leichhardt. Break even is about 11K, we are averaging 13K over the last 3 years. This year we are averaging 15K at Leichhardt when we are averaging 17K all grounds. There is a _potential_ opportunity cost in that potentially we could get a bigger deal with ANZ if the Leichhardt / CSS games were at ANZ but that is not a a real cost as we have an existing firm lump sum deal for 5 years. As Ive said a few times there are also positives for Leichhardt (Leichhardt only members, Sunday arvo blow ins etc).

You say we would have got less at Homebush, but thats a guess. Since 2004 weve averaged 18k at Homebush and 12k at LO.
Do you think 3 home grounds in Sydney makes sense?

Not really a guess. This time last year we got 9000 at CSS for the same game. We average 18k at Homebush but what you have to realise is all of our "high draw" games are at Homebush. Local derbies, games v Sydney teams where opposition numbers turn up etc. We usually play the easter monday game v Parra at Homebush where we get so many walk ins from the Easter Show, there was 30K there for that game this year. Leichhardt & CSS are usually kept for playing low drawing out of town oppositions (Dragons this year a weird anomaly). When you take into account the high draw games at ANZ v out of towners at Leichhardt and we average 18K at Homebush & 15K at leichhardt (this year), i'd argue that Leichhardt is beating Homebush for attendance.

I think in the future, there will come a time when the benefits of Leichhardt are offset by potential crowds elsewhere. For that to happen we would have to be averaging 30k at ANZ and every game a sell out at Leichhardt. But we are not there yet. If you took leichhardt away now it would be a negative once you strip out the Leichhardt only members, Sunday arvo event goers and the marketing goodwill. Potentially the Western Sydney Stadium may be the catalyst but bear in mind ANZ stadium own the WSS and they may not be happy to give up a 5year contracted tenant at Homebush.

The elephant in the room in this discussion about the merits of Leichhardt is CSS. I have intentionally not mentioned it because to do so invites division and this shouldnt be Wests v Balmain or Leichhardt v CSS but whilst Leichhardt is averaging 15K, CSS is averaging 10K over the same period and 9.5K over the last two years. This is not sustainable and ultimately the two grounds will be lumped together and if CSS continues to perform poorly it will probably be the cause of the end of Leichhardt.

This is genuinely not a divisive point. As a Tigers fan I want Leichhardt to continue and I would love CSS to outstrip it and I hope that crowds there can pick up. (Yes I go to both)

22,500 average at Homebush this year. But no one ever goes there.

 

[gallagher]

60% win rate doesnt offset the money we lose by playing there.

Whilst we are averaging 15K, we are NOT losing money there. Simply not true.

Not this year no. 12k average over 19 seasons though is true.

 

[Glennb]

22,500 average at Homebush this year. But no one ever goes there.

Well I never said that, and I havent read anyone here in this thread suggest that. If more people didnt go to ANZ, then EVERY game would be at Leichhardt/CSS. Of course we have to play out of ANZ but Im saying (and backing it up with facts) that Leichhardt has its place and that is as a boutique ground for playing out of town, low drawing teams and yet still provide an event atmosphere thats adds to the experience of being a member/supporter of the Tigers. I think on every level it achieves this. Cowboys & Titans this year, there is no way known they would have drawn those crowds at ANZ and there are the many other benefits to go with it that I have added previously. No down side and I have yet to been shown one.

 

[Glennb]

60% win rate doesnt offset the money we lose by playing there.

Whilst we are averaging 15K, we are NOT losing money there. Simply not true.

Not this year no. 12k average over 19 seasons though is true.

Yep and that would be break even this year (not sure what previous years, assume cheaper).

 

[gallagher]

60% win rate doesnt offset the money we lose by playing there.

Whilst we are averaging 15K, we are NOT losing money there. Simply not true.

Not this year no. 12k average over 19 seasons though is true.

Yep and that would be break even this year (not sure what previous years, assume cheaper).

A trail of CEO's have said we lose money playing there. But lets go on your break even.
So youre happy with 60% win ratio and breaking even every year? What lofty goals you expect from the club.
As I said before, enjoy missing the 8 year after year. We know thats what they will deliver.

 

[Telltails]

That's crap and you know it.

Gee… You really proved me wrong Russell.
We've had people on here admit they only attend one venue... Don't know why you cannot accept it

Your talking about 17,000 that were at Leichhardt not going to CSS - how do you know that?

However you state a few people on here don't go to CSS ????

I'll accept it if you can give me the evidence that the 17,000 yesterday won't go to CSS Ink.

No, Im not talking about 17,000, not all of them, a percentage….I didnt think that needed clarifying though if your argument is weak i guess youll try and twist things.
There is a %age of fans that dont...both ways
Its clear the inner west has a larger fan base going on crowd averages.
I was involved in Balmain JRL for over 10 years and many people I knew only attended LO, some had never been to a game at CSS, people here have admitted it.
Its obvious the fanbase is split, we have memberships that cater for this for christs sake.
Its as plain as the nose on your face.
We are supposed to be one but we are not...we go where it suits us, the club caters for this having many grounds and even more membership options.
If we ALL went to ALL the games at ALL the grounds then the figures would be roughly ALL the same, but theyre not.
You dont have to be Einstein to figure out why
:deadhorse:

There is truth in that. Will committ to Leichhardt games due to logistics - within walking distance.. Only time would consider CSS is a Sunday arvo preferably at 2pm.
I would assume that those living near CSS have similar challenges with Leichardt games.
Hats off to those who make it to all at both grounds but it is not feasible for me so I go to the games I can.

 

[Glennb]

A trail of CEO's have said we lose money playing there. But lets go on your break even.

Well this year will not be break even, we will make money same as previous two years. A trail of CEO's have said we lose money as opportunity cost as I explained previously but if we get more than 11K we do not lose money. Im not sure you understand how the ANZ deal works. Do you know how much extra money we would make if yesterdays game was at ANZ instead of Leichhardt and 60,000 people turned up? We would have LOST money. The deal with ANZ is a lump sum where as tenants the loss risk is transferred to them. They pay us $X and that is it, thats all we get and they collect and keep all takings. Doesnt matter if they get 80,000 or 5, Tigers get the same $X. Now $X is way more than they make out of playing at Leichhardt but that doesnt transfer because its not included in the deal.

As you say, a trail of CEO's have discussed this many times and assessed and renegotiated many times. Why do you think we still play out of Leichhardt & CSS? Not out of generosity. Every contract ANZ weigh it up because THEY take the risk. I have no idea what their break even is but they assess that they will lose $$ for Tigers V Titans so they are happy to let that go and Tigers carry the risk and have to get more than 11-12K to make it work.

So youre happy with 60% win ratio and breaking even every year? What lofty goals you expect from the club.
As I said before, enjoy missing the 8 year after year. We know thats what they will deliver.

Mate, I would sign up to a 60% win ratio today. We would be in top 4\. As Ive explained the breaking even things is a furphy.

 

[gallagher]

I'll leave it there then Glenn. I think youre on another planet.
Enjoy the season.

 

[diedpretty]

I really dont get this thread. Doesnt make sense at all. It was a sell out, against an out of town team and people are bagging the crowd?

**The only motivation I can see for this thread would be Magpies diehards who are defensive about the fact that Campbo crowds have been poor but that would be ridiculous. As a Tigers fan we should be happy about this surely?**

**_Of course you would_** - why don't you actually read the OP's original post - it was nothing about crowds - it was about the false belief that the ground provides a fortress mentality for WT.

Why of course I would? This thread genuinely doesnt make sense.

I did read the OP. It was wrong. Since WT existed we have won 45 and lost 34\. Compared to our overall success rate this is a stunning rate of victories. Our previous game there was a great crowd and a great victory. Again, this thread makes no sense.

Despite the OP post, this thread has somehow degenerated into criticising a full house at Leichhardt.

Please point out where this thread makes sense?

My point was it wasn't about crowds or which ground is better. Had you put forward this argument in the first place it would have been a well constructed argument against the OP:

Its closer to 60% at Leichhardt whereas Campbelltown & ANZ are a pretty steady 44%. That is a 50% greater chance of victory at Leichhardt which based on our crap win rate forever is a STUNNING victory rate. A veritable fortress.

Instead you posted this which was just a derogative remark which had no relation to the argument :

The only motivation I can see for this thread would be Magpies diehards who are defensive about the fact that Campbo crowds have been poor but that would be ridiculous. As a Tigers fan we should be happy about this surely?

 

[Glennb]

I really dont get this thread. Doesnt make sense at all. It was a sell out, against an out of town team and people are bagging the crowd?

**The only motivation I can see for this thread would be Magpies diehards who are defensive about the fact that Campbo crowds have been poor but that would be ridiculous. As a Tigers fan we should be happy about this surely?**

**_Of course you would_** - why don't you actually read the OP's original post - it was nothing about crowds - it was about the false belief that the ground provides a fortress mentality for WT.

Why of course I would? This thread genuinely doesnt make sense.

I did read the OP. It was wrong. Since WT existed we have won 45 and lost 34\. Compared to our overall success rate this is a stunning rate of victories. Our previous game there was a great crowd and a great victory. Again, this thread makes no sense.

Despite the OP post, this thread has somehow degenerated into criticising a full house at Leichhardt.

Please point out where this thread makes sense?

My point was it wasn't about crowds or which ground is better. Had you put forward this argument in the first place it would have been a well constructed argument against the OP:

Its closer to 60% at Leichhardt whereas Campbelltown & ANZ are a pretty steady 44%. That is a 50% greater chance of victory at Leichhardt which based on our crap win rate forever is a STUNNING victory rate. A veritable fortress.

Instead you posted this which was just a derogative remark which had no relation to the argument :

The only motivation I can see for this thread would be Magpies diehards who are defensive about the fact that Campbo crowds have been poor but that would be ridiculous. As a Tigers fan we should be happy about this surely?

Well put DP. I genuinely wasnt trying to be a smart arse or be clever or anything. I was actually perplexed to the point of the thread and struggling to see the motivation behind it. That last paragraph was and is genuinely the only reason I could see for people arguing. I can see that my last paragraph may have been inflammatory and I genuinely didnt mean that. I think I have set Gallaghers defence mechanism off as well and I can see why. Again, genuinely didnt mean it. Kudos for explaining yourself in a reasoned manner.

 

[Glennb]

I'll leave it there then Glenn. I think youre on another planet.
Enjoy the season.

Happy to leave it there if you like Gallagher and please believe me I am genuinely trying to discuss this reasonably without malice or arguing personally. Would be happy for you to refute any of my points where it explains your point of view.

 

[gallagher]

**_Of course you would_** - why don't you actually read the OP's original post - it was nothing about crowds - it was about the false belief that the ground provides a fortress mentality for WT.

Why of course I would? This thread genuinely doesnt make sense.

I did read the OP. It was wrong. Since WT existed we have won 45 and lost 34\. Compared to our overall success rate this is a stunning rate of victories. Our previous game there was a great crowd and a great victory. Again, this thread makes no sense.

Despite the OP post, this thread has somehow degenerated into criticising a full house at Leichhardt.

Please point out where this thread makes sense?

My point was it wasn't about crowds or which ground is better. Had you put forward this argument in the first place it would have been a well constructed argument against the OP:

Its closer to 60% at Leichhardt whereas Campbelltown & ANZ are a pretty steady 44%. That is a 50% greater chance of victory at Leichhardt which based on our crap win rate forever is a STUNNING victory rate. A veritable fortress.

Instead you posted this which was just a derogative remark which had no relation to the argument :

The only motivation I can see for this thread would be Magpies diehards who are defensive about the fact that Campbo crowds have been poor but that would be ridiculous. As a Tigers fan we should be happy about this surely?

Well put DP. I genuinely wasnt trying to be a smart arse or be clever or anything. I was actually perplexed to the point of the thread and struggling to see the motivation behind it. That last paragraph was and is genuinely the only reason I could see for people arguing. I can see that my last paragraph may have been inflammatory and I genuinely didnt mean that. I think I have set Gallaghers defence mechanism off as well and I can see why. Again, genuinely didnt mean it. Kudos for explaining yourself in a reasoned manner.

No defensive mechanism Glenn. I dont think we should be playing at CSS either. Neither are NRL standard IMO.
I base my opinion on multiple CEO's ssying thst we lose money when we get crowds of 12k.

 

[Byron_Bay_Fan]

As someone has already mentioned some people need to get to the loo urgently, no queues and no mobile toilets.

 

[TCL]

Like it, don't like makes no difference. If the club puts games on there I'm going.

Remember one year maybe 2007 early in the year, was away for work drove home 6hrs a Saturday, picked the family up and we drove out to LO. It was pissing down, we lost the game but we had a great day. Kids still talk about it. We drove home in our undies wrapped in beach towels and blankets we were soaked.

We're tigers supporters. When life gives you lemons we make lemonade.

 

[sideline_eye]

from my seat at CSS, in the western stand, I can see every part of the field. Why do people want to stand on a sloping paddock with very limited views to watch a game? Atmosphere? I'd call it torture and if I want to see my team get flogged, I'd rather do it in some comfort.

Now, what was that about a fortress?

Well 17k people enjoyed it.
\
\
And im sure they will again.
\
\
But yeah stay at home where its more comforable you flog.

I didn't realise that you were so childish, having to resort to name calling to back up your point… if you have one to make. By the way, I don't sit at home watching, I go to every game at CSS and ANZ and travel 200-250 kilometres to do it but I grew out of outdated facilities many years ago.

Back to the real point, you say that there was crowd of 17000 who enjoyed watching the display of football garbage put on by the Wests Tigers on Sunday? I'd say the majority of the crowd won't be back again after that.

Best wishes,
The Flog

 

[magpiecol]

:smiling_imp:

Finally can the Myth of Liechtdardt oval be put to bed as a fortress and other teams hate playing there….this truely is false and somewhat of a Myth!

Wash your mouth out.
It's the greatest place to be on earth

You poor bugger.

 

[Needaname]

Are we tigers supporters?
Or are we Leichhardt supporters.

I think the point being made here is that Leichhardt has become a place for an event. Not a game of football.

I grew up in the inner west and guys from my schooling years would not have the tigers as their 1st choice team.
However, they all flock to Leichhardt for that nostalgic Sunday game.
There are the diehards there don’t get me wrong.

But I agree that the crowd is full of people more satisfied with having cans on the hill and watching footy than being their to support the tigers.

Difference between Campbelltown and Leichhardt.
Everyone goes there for the team.
Crowds might be less, but they are there for the football.
You can tell in when the team list is named. Everyone claps and cheers and yahoos, same goes at ANZ. But at Leichhardt it’s like your surrounded by people that don’t even know the team.