Tigers board to undertake post-season review

[Snake]

I think we have two different requirements here-
a/ immediate decision on NRL coach as we need to recruit new players, decide is tapped on shoulder, stabilise the NRL squad and set in place the structure we have so obviously lost. Also coaching assistant staff have to be sorted. This is urgent and needs immediate decision. Although unfair, it is the CEO and GM Football that can make that call of the NRL football department.

b/ A wider review of the CEO and GM Football to look at the overall operations of the club football wise, not just the business side. Junior pathways, our recruitment and retention, salary cal usage, information from (a) can feed in to (b) but this second thing would take a lot longer and surely the rationale for (a) must be obvious n terms of decision required.

If the Board is to also go for (b), and they should, it must take longer and be a separate, but linked, review. Maguire will probably be the first domino to fall along with his assistants. The deserved close look at the CEO, GM Football and wider WT operations should come in the off season.

"These boys put in each and every week. I have no doubt about their efforts and commitment and pride for the jumper but it hasn’t translated with results on the field and it’s just not good enough.

Translation.
"Our coach is poor and he is goooooooooone.

And he takes 1/2 the under performing players with him...its easy to blame the coach if the guys on the field dont have the smarts to play NRL...
I have said it before Madge has faults,his old school coaching being one of them,but at least he is trying his best for the club...the players know they arent going to be replaced atm because we have no depth...and so builds complacency which they have in bucket loads...
I refer back to the memorial games to show what heart some of these players have for the colours....

There has to be ramifications for certain players and these are contracted !:. there is no justification sacking the coach and not holding these players to account .. these guys have trashed our jersey and disrespected the whole supporter base they need to be SACKED!

 

[Jedi_Tiger]

You know, it is simply amazing how totally ignorant some on this forum are. No ignorant is not correct, plain stupid is more accurate. For the really stupid ones,I will type slowly so even you might get it. Pascoe is NOT responsible for the football team. His responsibility is for the commercial operation of the Club. By any objective view, he has been a success. Hartigan, is Madges Boss. He has been responsible for the signing of Stefano, Blore, Dane, Adam etc including many of the undefeated Jersey Flegg Team. Madge is the Coach (who I have strongly defended) responsible for all on field performance. It is Madge who has to face scrutiny as do the players. Two of our highest paid players have consistanty failed this year. Brooks and Nofo. Madge, I reluctantly agree has to go, but Brooks and Nofo should share the Uber home with him.

So it must be Hartigan who is responsible for missing out on
JAC
Latrell
TPJ

 

[GNR4LIFE]

Maybe Sheens should bum a lift with the English cricket team when they come over for the Ashes.

 

[Jedi_Tiger]

I really hope we are not signing flannigan he is a cheat and did well with a team over the salary cap and on peptides.
Have a bad feeling it will be Flanno

 

[jadtiger]

I don't derstand why it was so hard for Sheens to do the review via zoom?

We are in lockdown, everyone is used to using zoom now.

At least he would be somewhat independent, has the footy nous and gives him a clear idea of what's needed in his role.

Also - his flight has been delayed from arriving in July to now October.

Sheens has nothing and should not have anything to do with the review.It should be external to the club and not conducted by people who are potentialy part of the problem.The conflict of interest is disgraceful and reflects badly on our management system.I said yesterday this is a Kangaroo Court set up where the result is known beforehand and the process is all about reaching the decision that excuses management.
Humphrey Applebee would proud of them

 

[shiretiger]

Never hold a review where the outcome hasn't already been determined.

 

[cochise]

I really hope we are not signing flannigan he is a cheat and did well with a team over the salary cap and on peptides.
Have a bad feeling it will be Flanno

It won't be Flanagan

 

[Jedi_Tiger]

I really hope we are not signing flannigan he is a cheat and did well with a team over the salary cap and on peptides.
Have a bad feeling it will be Flanno

It won't be Flanagan

hope you are right cochise
I wouldn't mind John Morris

 

[tony soprano]

I don't derstand why it was so hard for Sheens to do the review via zoom?

We are in lockdown, everyone is used to using zoom now.

At least he would be somewhat independent, has the footy nous and gives him a clear idea of what's needed in his role.

Also - his flight has been delayed from arriving in July to now October.

True it would be via zoom in Sydney anyway you'd think

Timing would be an issue.

 

[TigerWest]

I really hope we are not signing flannigan he is a cheat and did well with a team over the salary cap and on peptides.
Have a bad feeling it will be Flanno

It won't be Flanagan

hope you are right cochise
I wouldn't mind John Morris

How long would you give him?

 

[Geo]

Might be past Tim’s bedtime to do via Zoom…

 

[Jedi_Tiger]

I really hope we are not signing flannigan he is a cheat and did well with a team over the salary cap and on peptides.
Have a bad feeling it will be Flanno

It won't be Flanagan

hope you are right cochise
I wouldn't mind John Morris

How long would you give him?

I'd give Morris 3 years with Sheens helping him

 

[Mighty_Tiger]

We finished
2019 - 9th
2020 - 11th
2021 - 13th
If there isn’t change soon 15th or the wooden spoon is waiting for us

It is that bad.
Broncos, Bulldogs, Warriors and Cowboys will be better next year based on recruitment and injured stars back, heck the Warriors will hopefully play at home for the 1st time in 2yrs & have their full squad available week to week.

We are a disaster.


Broncos, Bulldogs and Cowboys share a common problem with WT. All poorly run organisations urgently trying to solve problems created by bad choices.
WT started turning things around before them, so I can’t see us not being ahead of that game. It may not look like it after the Hiding we got from the Bulldogs.
Our future success is more dependent on the choices of our decision makers, whom ever they may be?
A typical organisation develops a proven formula for success, establishes systems and procedures to compliment and drive toward goals of various time horizons. Has motivated people, who are fully aware of their duties and responsibilities, the value of the part they play while being dedicated to achieving the organisation’s goals.
I’m totally convinced we are using a different approach where decisions are not born from collaboration and made by the person responsible, but come about as a result of infighting. The TPJ fiasco was a classic example.
As Lauren previously eluded to, their collective problem solving skills are not inspiring any confidence. One possible reason for this is could be the focus on who is wrong, not what is wrong? Playing the man, not the ball?

Issue I have is the Broncos & Bulldogs are now infront of us.

Our strategy of being a junior haven has merit but no junior with huge talent will stay if they have no support. We are also buying a bunch of kids to jump into Reggies or NRL. The pact of growing up together and coming through the grades together doesn’t exist as such wanting to stick together means little when a club who is competitive & with a fellow support cast comes knocking.

Broncos/Bulldogs and Cowboys have bought NRL starting players, we have bought 2 players from ESL. Both will struggle with the speed & size of the NRL. They also will miss the start of preseason (ESL has 2 more rounds + finals, then they have to get into the country - which has taken Sheens 5mths now to get here, hotel isolation for 2 weeks & then find place to live etc). Add to this AD & Talau injured missing all off season & big chunk of the season. We are in a very ugly state.

Normally when you create a strategy you also develop a gliepath which has milestones/success indicators and which then also have plan a/b/c on who/how/what has to happen to get there. You have fortnightly & monthly checkpoints on progression which then leads to cause correction.

Broncos, Bulldogs, Sharks, Warriors have done this well.

We have stuffed it up in a major way to the point established players just don’t want to come here.

Madge said players do want to come, we have a massive amount of cash to spend and yet zero, not 1 NRL top 17 player from the last 3yrs has signed with us for next year. We don’t even have a player who is in the top 30 squads joining us.

Our Reggies offer little in the step up as well.

Last year we had Stefano & Laurie to look forward to seeing this year. Madge talks about bringing kids in but our recruitment on top line kids has also dried up. We don’t even have a kid to look forward to seeing.

It’s like our talent scouts are just focusing on kids to play Flegg or under and hope in 5-6yrs that some (only 9% of Flegg kids make it in NRL) jump up.

Our strategy on youth is great in theory but our operationalization of our strategy is terrible.

Our strategy to never pay overs is great once you have a team people want to join, but again our operationalization of the strategy is terrible

Our coach and coaching staff our trying to enforce structures on players who either can’t play that way or just don’t have the skill. Not once does Madge and the coaching staff coach the team based off the skills/capabilities of the players or have ability to cause correct but hey we train the best ever every week - what more can you train for?

Pascoe has alot of flaws but his business acumen in implementing the financial strategy has been executed brilliantly well considering how bad we are going but he is still able to get money in the kitty.

The reality is though we have no one at the club currently who knows how to implement a football on the park strategy. Sheens role wasn’t actually to do this - his role was on pathways. I’m glad he is now involved based on reviews. I honestly think we need someone like a Bennet with a younger coach under his wing to really drive a change needed, he knows how to transform things and knows how to operationalize a strategy and he knows how to man manage.

Madge has passion, can never deny that. He lives/breathes the game. In his head he knows what is needed to win - his support cast is crap & the way he coaches our team just won’t attrack anyone to the club anytime soon. It’s clear he is lost for ideas and doesn’t know how to cause correct & the playing squad have lost faith.

We can do a cleanout but issue is no one wants to come, if we clean out we have to pay players to play at other clubs and then play for new players undoing all the great work to have a war chest.

Right now we are lost, we have no clear path forward & no end in sight as to when we will see some positives.

 

[sleeve]

Roach hinted that the problems are just not the coach,and i would like to know if it's the whole management. Seriously, we have gone backwards since our premiership shock win. Losing key players Teddy, Moses, and Woods was massive, but we show no sign of an upward trend.
Does Managment overule Hartigan and or the coach owing to being gun shy after previous bad signings?
Why does a club with close to 2 mil dollars,miss out on TPJ, Burton, Critchton and at least 5 other players, to sides who finished behind us last year? Who signed the crap second raters and reject Souths players? The whole club needs a cleanout, but who sacks the commitee ?

 

[2005magic]

I think we have two different requirements here-
a/ immediate decision on NRL coach as we need to recruit new players, decide is tapped on shoulder, stabilise the NRL squad and set in place the structure we have so obviously lost. Also coaching assistant staff have to be sorted. This is urgent and needs immediate decision. Although unfair, it is the CEO and GM Football that can make that call of the NRL football department.

b/ A wider review of the CEO and GM Football to look at the overall operations of the club football wise, not just the business side. Junior pathways, our recruitment and retention, salary cal usage, information from (a) can feed in to (b) but this second thing would take a lot longer and surely the rationale for (a) must be obvious n terms of decision required.

If the Board is to also go for (b), and they should, it must take longer and be a separate, but linked, review. Maguire will probably be the first domino to fall along with his assistants. The deserved close look at the CEO, GM Football and wider WT operations should come in the off season.

"These boys put in each and every week. I have no doubt about their efforts and commitment and pride for the jumper but it hasn’t translated with results on the field and it’s just not good enough.

Translation.
"Our coach is poor and he is goooooooooone.

And he takes 1/2 the under performing players with him...its easy to blame the coach if the guys on the field dont have the smarts to play NRL...
I have said it before Madge has faults,his old school coaching being one of them,but at least he is trying his best for the club...the players know they arent going to be replaced atm because we have no depth...and so builds complacency which they have in bucket loads...
I refer back to the memorial games to show what heart some of these players have for the colours....


There has to be ramifications for certain players and these are contracted !:. there is no justification sacking the coach and not holding these players to account .. these guys have trashed our jersey and disrespected the whole supporter base they need to be SACKED!

Definitely agree. More than a few players should be tapped on the shoulder. I'd like to think not giving full effort in professional manner was a KPI that you could rip up a contract, however, they should go too, even without that.

 

[jirskyr]

We finished
2019 - 9th
2020 - 11th
2021 - 13th
If there isn’t change soon 15th or the wooden spoon is waiting for us

It is that bad.
Broncos, Bulldogs, Warriors and Cowboys will be better next year based on recruitment and injured stars back, heck the Warriors will hopefully play at home for the 1st time in 2yrs & have their full squad available week to week.

We are a disaster.

They can't all be better, unless you are talking very marginal changes like 10th instead of 12th.

The reality is those 4 clubs, plus St George, Tigers, Raiders are all strong odds to be in the Bottom 8 for 2022, it's just a question of where in the bottom they end up.

 

[WT2K]

Opinion piece by Andrew Webster.

The Tigers and Dragons need to stop treating their fans like fools

Is there a greater cop-out in rugby league than a club announcing it will launch an “exhausting review”? It’s the fluffy, corporate gibber-jabber management spits out when it’s run out of answers.

The Wests Tigers are about to conduct a review that will arrive at a result we already know: Michael Maguire ushered out the door and another poor soul given the NRL’s toughest job before he, too, is inevitably thrown on the scrapheap. Next!


The Dragons asked Phil Gould to conduct a review at the end of a miserable 2019, told him coach Paul McGregor couldn’t be sacked, then sacked McGregor after a miserable 2020, then brought in Anthony Griffin, who has presided over a miserable 2021.

It hasn’t just been a special year for the NRL’s joint ventures — it’s been a special decade: the Tigers haven’t played finals football since 2011, the Dragons have reached the playoffs twice.

The comparisons are compelling: two clubs featuring one partner that holds all the money (WIN Corp in the case of the Dragons, Wests Ashfield in the case of the Tigers); two dysfunctional boards with deep distrust between factions that don’t see themselves as a united entity; two rosters loaded with players whose hands should be shaking when collecting their pay packets; two football departments incapable of finding a solution, digging a deeper hole with every move they make.

Let’s start with the Dragons. Nudging back-rower Tariq Sims out the door is yet another baffling decision from a club making it up as it goes.

Sims has been told he can talk to other clubs. The messaging has been murky: is it because of salary cap problems or because, at 31, he’s too old? He’s been told both.

Griffin played down the significance of the move after the loss to Souths on Saturday night, claiming there had been nothing more than a “conversation”.

The reality is he’s been told he’s not wanted; another local junior treated like garbage by the club where he wants to retire. Sends a great message to the young stars coming through.

The bottom line is Sims wanted two more years on his deal, which expires at the end of next year, for less money than he’s on now.

Sure, he’s been inconsistent at times but name a player in that Dragons’ team who hasn’t. He played the house down for Brad Fittler’s NSW side in this year’s Origin series victory.

He also brings something you won’t find on the stats sheet. Like Sharks-bound former captain Cameron McInnes, Sims is a good player but a better club man. Now he’s been moved along to make room for … whom?

The Roosters are already eyeing him off as a great buy for the remainder of his career. Shouldn’t he be a great buy for the remainder of his career at the Dragons?

The developing Sims situation is another example of a club unsure of what it wants to be and the people it wants playing for them.

From the decision to move on McInnes, to entertaining the signing of Israel Folau, to the shabby treatment of Matt Dufty, to considering Jack de Belin as captain recently ahead of Sims, to carrying perennially suspended players like Josh McGuire on their books, to signing broken down players like George Burgess, to the coach wanting to re-sign Corey Norman before being overruled then belligerently sticking with him until the very last minute of his final match when he dropped the ball, it’s fair to say the Dragons haven’t really kicked on since sacking McGregor.

Doubtless, the Paul Vaughan barbecue will be used as an excuse for a season gone wrong, just as the de Belin situation was for the past three years. Another cop-out.

It’s says something about the strength of the club when 13 players ignored the instructions of the coach and head of football and did it anyway, breaching the law and the NRL’s biosecurity rules.

It says something about the strength of the club that captain Ben Hunt knew about it and said nothing. The argument is he shouldn’t be a snitch. The last time I looked this was a professional football team, not Year 7.

The blame, though, isn’t with Griffin. It’s the people who appointed him: a board divided by the blazer wearers from the St George side of the merger and the miserly appointees from WIN, who have allowed mediocrity to become the standard at a once-proud club.

Meanwhile, over at the Tigers, a searching week-long review is already underway. What will it uncover?! What a pity the Fox Sports cameras can’t be in the rooms for this juicy sequel to Tales From Tiger Town.

The review is being conducted by head of football Adam Hartigan and chief executive Justin Pascoe.

Hartigan came to the Tigers from the Roosters. He’s hardly set the world afire. Maguire has been blamed for the club’s inability to sign big-name players. Any players for that matter.

At what point does Hartigan wear some blame? Maybe it will come up in the review — that he’s running.

Pascoe has been dodging the blame for the Tigers’ on-field performance for months, which is interesting when he’s been chief executive for six years and was front and centre on game-day in the Fox Sports docu-series.

Maguire barely came out of the doco with his coaching reputation intact. He’s a coach who cares, but how many of them don’t? It was a worrying sign in the first episode when he became emotional in front of his group after a loss … in the second match of the season.

But the coach can’t wear the blame forever at the Tigers.

The line from both the board and management was consistent as the season went down the toilet: we’ve given the football department everything they need, they still haven’t performed, it’s on them, it’s not us, we’re the front office etc.

Now that’s a cop-out because, the last time anyone looked, the buck stops with the person at the top in any organisation.

Perhaps it’s time for the people who run the Tigers and Dragons to review themselves.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/the-tigers-and-dragons-need-to-stop-treating-their-fans-like-fools-20210906-p58p9c.html

 

[twentyforty]

We finished
2019 - 9th
2020 - 11th
2021 - 13th
If there isn’t change soon 15th or the wooden spoon is waiting for us

It is that bad.
Broncos, Bulldogs, Warriors and Cowboys will be better next year based on recruitment and injured stars back, heck the Warriors will hopefully play at home for the 1st time in 2yrs & have their full squad available week to week.

We are a disaster.


Broncos, Bulldogs and Cowboys share a common problem with WT. All poorly run organisations urgently trying to solve problems created by bad choices.
WT started turning things around before them, so I can’t see us not being ahead of that game. It may not look like it after the Hiding we got from the Bulldogs.
Our future success is more dependent on the choices of our decision makers, whom ever they may be?
A typical organisation develops a proven formula for success, establishes systems and procedures to compliment and drive toward goals of various time horizons. Has motivated people, who are fully aware of their duties and responsibilities, the value of the part they play while being dedicated to achieving the organisation’s goals.
I’m totally convinced we are using a different approach where decisions are not born from collaboration and made by the person responsible, but come about as a result of infighting. The TPJ fiasco was a classic example.
As Lauren previously eluded to, their collective problem solving skills are not inspiring any confidence. One possible reason for this is could be the focus on who is wrong, not what is wrong? Playing the man, not the ball?

Issue I have is the Broncos & Bulldogs are now infront of us.

Our strategy of being a junior haven has merit but no junior with huge talent will stay if they have no support. We are also buying a bunch of kids to jump into Reggies or NRL. The pact of growing up together and coming through the grades together doesn’t exist as such wanting to stick together means little when a club who is competitive & with a fellow support cast comes knocking.

Broncos/Bulldogs and Cowboys have bought NRL starting players, we have bought 2 players from ESL. Both will struggle with the speed & size of the NRL. They also will miss the start of preseason (ESL has 2 more rounds + finals, then they have to get into the country - which has taken Sheens 5mths now to get here, hotel isolation for 2 weeks & then find place to live etc). Add to this AD & Talau injured missing all off season & big chunk of the season. We are in a very ugly state.

Normally when you create a strategy you also develop a gliepath which has milestones/success indicators and which then also have plan a/b/c on who/how/what has to happen to get there. You have fortnightly & monthly checkpoints on progression which then leads to cause correction.

Broncos, Bulldogs, Sharks, Warriors have done this well.

We have stuffed it up in a major way to the point established players just don’t want to come here.

Madge said players do want to come, we have a massive amount of cash to spend and yet zero, not 1 NRL top 17 player from the last 3yrs has signed with us for next year. We don’t even have a player who is in the top 30 squads joining us.

Our Reggies offer little in the step up as well.

Last year we had Stefano & Laurie to look forward to seeing this year. Madge talks about bringing kids in but our recruitment on top line kids has also dried up. We don’t even have a kid to look forward to seeing.

It’s like our talent scouts are just focusing on kids to play Flegg or under and hope in 5-6yrs that some (only 9% of Flegg kids make it in NRL) jump up.

Our strategy on youth is great in theory but our operationalization of our strategy is terrible.

Our strategy to never pay overs is great once you have a team people want to join, but again our operationalization of the strategy is terrible

Our coach and coaching staff our trying to enforce structures on players who either can’t play that way or just don’t have the skill. Not once does Madge and the coaching staff coach the team based off the skills/capabilities of the players or have ability to cause correct but hey we train the best ever every week - what more can you train for?

Pascoe has alot of flaws but his business acumen in implementing the financial strategy has been executed brilliantly well considering how bad we are going but he is still able to get money in the kitty.

The reality is though we have no one at the club currently who knows how to implement a football on the park strategy. Sheens role wasn’t actually to do this - his role was on pathways. I’m glad he is now involved based on reviews. I honestly think we need someone like a Bennet with a younger coach under his wing to really drive a change needed, he knows how to transform things and knows how to operationalize a strategy and he knows how to man manage.

Madge has passion, can never deny that. He lives/breathes the game. In his head he knows what is needed to win - his support cast is crap & the way he coaches our team just won’t attrack anyone to the club anytime soon. It’s clear he is lost for ideas and doesn’t know how to cause correct & the playing squad have lost faith.

We can do a cleanout but issue is no one wants to come, if we clean out we have to pay players to play at other clubs and then play for new players undoing all the great work to have a war chest.

Right now we are lost, we have no clear path forward & no end in sight as to when we will see some positives.

The really big positive in all of this is that we've paid the price of getting the cap back into balance, to the point that, the best players on the park will have the higher contract payments, barring injuries of course. This short term pain of having inexperienced players lose games has been well and truly worth it, its given us cap space to go to market, and game time for those players to audition.
I personally think that our coaching staff got the most out of this team of youngsters in 2021, particularly when compared with Bulldags, who had a similar roster.
However, it was a little disappointing that our senior players didn't bite down on the guard and consistently show some more leadership.
What I'd really like to know is, now that we're over the hump. what plans are in place to ensure we dont make the same mistakes? I know Lee said he wouldnt be drawn into commenting or speculating on the future of Madge, and that his and Pascoe's jobs are on the line as well as all board members'.
But are they really???

 

[Tiger_Fanatic3]


 

[Telltails]

@brycegibbs


Bryce should be our PR man..he would put them all in their place.