BAGNF05
Well-known member
Hopefully we can lock up Luai and May long term as they are good building blocks. Strongest position we’ve been in since we last played finals.
Wests Tigers Deep Dive of the Week
- Thread starter Jolls
- Start date
twentyforty
Well-known member
Are you saying that having “policies and procedures of a development club” will be ineffective unless we’re anchored in the top 8?
Can we be in the top 8 without them?
Maybe, but I reckon perhaps briefly.
I understand your point regarding the flow on affect of kids having a buy in and developing a club culture and loyalty.
It’s a difficult journey of recovery once the club has walked away from junior development as they did from 2012.
My opinion for what it’s worth, is to do both at the same time and continue on that path relentlessly and regardless of admin or playing group turnover. In order to do that though, policies and procedures need to be put in place so that when a new guy comes in they can say..”this is the way we do things around here.”
Jolls
Well-known member
I don't think we need to be anchored in the top 8 for it to be effective; but it would certainly help. What we need is for the policies, procedures, systems hto be developed concurrently with culture (performance shoudl follow as a result). Until we can demonstrate that we have something worth staying for we will continue to be cherry picked as clubs have something we don't. Winning a premiership is one big carrot; however, until we get there the family first approach, the Luai/Api drawcard. Terrell May - the messaging is there ready to be sent.
We need to avoid the Tim Johannssen type story and provide a pathway and support to get there.
Jolls
Well-known member
While we are on the subject of attack perhaps we should have a chat about what is going right and wrong with our current structure.
Our current approach is to play an eyes up game using a combination of emerging talent in Bula, Galvin, Latu F and TDS under the experience of Api and Luai on the paddock and Benji and Hodgo off it. As a result out ttack is still developing; but, some clear strengths and weaknesses are emerging. This means that there are clear opportunities for us to improve our attacking structure. We need to look at his through the lens of taking advantage of the skills that we have at our disposal, as opposed to the hope many have, that we will land a mid season saviour.
General
Strengths:
Centre Corridor
Strengths:
Strengths:
Strengths:
Our attack is doing OK, but there are very clear deficiencies. Some are player shortfalls, some are more related to the gameplan itself. We have a combination of physical strength and ability in our outside backs and left edge that we could take more advantage of. If we take the opportunites we can evolve our attacking structure.
What else have you identifed that we need to address or exploit?
Our current approach is to play an eyes up game using a combination of emerging talent in Bula, Galvin, Latu F and TDS under the experience of Api and Luai on the paddock and Benji and Hodgo off it. As a result out ttack is still developing; but, some clear strengths and weaknesses are emerging. This means that there are clear opportunities for us to improve our attacking structure. We need to look at his through the lens of taking advantage of the skills that we have at our disposal, as opposed to the hope many have, that we will land a mid season saviour.
General
Strengths:
- Eyes up football and early kicks are causing headaches for oppostion defences as they can be caught in the dilema of covering the kick or the attacking structure.
- Kicking game is poor, especially our deep kicking game.
- We do not control momentum when we should (eg kicks for the sideline or early kicks to the corners to exert pressure with our defence).
- We have not exploited the 40/20 rule; this is a classic attacking opportunity
- Develop the kicking game of Galvin and Luai
- Utilise AD as a kicking option for distance, 40/20 or the high floater
- Api/TDS 40/20 from dummy half
Centre Corridor
Strengths:
- Api controls the centre well and engages the A and B defenders to provide time and space.
- TDS has speed and good service, his guile is developing but he is more of a Damien Cook than and Api.
- With Royce Hunt and Jack Bird on the field we are able to gain momentum and assert ascendence in the middle
- Pole is provides good do forward
- May, while executing as a prop, plays a bit more like a 13 and kicks off a lot of second phase play
- We are unable to dominate the middle for much of the game; however, for the most part we have parity.
- Bula does not push up in and around the ruck enough to take advantege of second phase play opportunities.
- Bula should be in an around the ruck more often. We have seen a few outside in attemps that have been unsuccessfuly executed; but there are probably better opportunities off May and Hunt and Bird that could be exploited by the speed of Bula.
Strengths:
- The left edge combination of Sam F and Luai is atarting to take shape.
- Luai tends to straighten the attack when he runs.
- Galvin sweeping around provides good attacking opportunites against the oppositions edge defence.
- Skelton and Naden provide good energy and kick return meters
- AD is pedestrian in attack at present. Not sure if this is related to his groin injury or a lack of effort.
- Luai is so focussed on organising the play that his running game has been affected.
- Hodgo needs to work with AD to develop a realtionship with Sam F, Bula and Skelton/Naden, At present he is the weak link in the right side attack and currently stifles point scoring opportunities.
- Double sweep with Galvin and Bula
- Bula tends to play on the right - we need to have him on both sides of the field.
- The physical strength of our right side attack is underutilised. AD simply needs to run lines and use his strength to overpower his oppostion, running off Sam F, or hitting the line at pace, at the ad line off Luai. Even a half break would provide ample opportunity for Naden/Skelton to finish.
- Potential shift of Naden to centre/AD to wing until Skelton returns.
Strengths:
- Toa and Taruva have developed a potent combination.
- Galvin promotes the ball early to Toa which provides him with the time he needs to stand up his opposition
- Bula has a good working realtionship on the right edge.
- Seyfarth does not have the size, footowrk or strength to create holes in the oppositon defence.
- Galvin runs too sideways and does not create oppotunities for his edge runner (Seyfarth)
- If Galvin could straighten the play a little he could provide better opportunites for the outside
- Hodgo needs to develop the relationhship between Seyfarth and Galvin. They need to work out how they can hit holes, at good angles, at the ad line or they need to target a specific player and have Galvin shift them create the hole for Seyfarth. If they follow Galvin he can drop it off his hip and if they don't a simple show and go or hit Star with no inside pressure. That is about as difficult as it needs to be. Achieve that and put Seyfarth (or Bula for that matter) into space and we have a lethal right edge combination.
Our attack is doing OK, but there are very clear deficiencies. Some are player shortfalls, some are more related to the gameplan itself. We have a combination of physical strength and ability in our outside backs and left edge that we could take more advantage of. If we take the opportunites we can evolve our attacking structure.
What else have you identifed that we need to address or exploit?
innsaneink
Well-known member
What shits me is our apparent lack of urgency and fight in getting a quick ptb.
Not sure if this is a safety strategy from Benji or im too critical, we seem a bit casual and lazy in this regard (i wonder where we are in the list of reciving 6 to goes)....i dont know if i see our games the same way i see other teams..
And also another thing thats probably incidental is the amount of times we find ourself with a chance, defence is scattered and a hole opens only for a twal or douehi or may to get the ball who suddenly seem like theyre running on sand and are quickly rounded up
Not sure if this is a safety strategy from Benji or im too critical, we seem a bit casual and lazy in this regard (i wonder where we are in the list of reciving 6 to goes)....i dont know if i see our games the same way i see other teams..
And also another thing thats probably incidental is the amount of times we find ourself with a chance, defence is scattered and a hole opens only for a twal or douehi or may to get the ball who suddenly seem like theyre running on sand and are quickly rounded up
I feel like Benji has instructed the guys to focus on playing the ball without error before increasing the speed of the play the ball. They had that crack down earlier in the year and I think so far only 1 of our players have been pinged for an incorrect play the ball. It’s a massive momentum shift handing over possession from an unforced error. Could be more valuable than the speed of the ruck. Secondly, if we don’t have a half break / full break etc and are set based off a standard hit up there isn’t going to be any advantage to how quick we get up to play the ball. The defence can’t leave until the tackled player moves the ball backwards, (though some leave as the player goes to put the ball on the ground).
So on that note, it probably helps getting us in position if we spend even longer getting to our feet to play the ball. That could actually be a tactic.
With play the ball speed, you want the measure to be from when the ball is strikes to when the dummy half has the ball. No sooner as this is the time the defence can advance.
Jolls
Well-known member
While I know fighting to get to your feet is improtant I don't think it is something that bears out in the stats. You can't map PTB speed to table postion at all. The Storm and Dogs for exmple are around us in that stat for example. As @Needaname pointed out it is more about when you ned a quick PTB as opposed to how you are fighting for your feet. It shits me as much as you though.
Yes, the guys we ant to get the ball to in broken field play never seem to be there and is exactly why Bula needs to push up closer tot he ruck in my opinion.
Yes I was going to say, the speed of fighting in the ruck to play the ball is a huge advantage in broken field, and probably also when coming out of your end in a backs set, however when in the red zone against set defences even though a slow ruck gives the defence an extra second or so to set their line it also gives the attack extra time to get set for their next play.
Jolls
Well-known member
Pretty clear that Benji read last weeks Deep Dive on attack; Galvin played a bit straighter and went much deeper into the line this week and Luai ran more - just what we was called for by the WTF. 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
Given the 'Impending" recruiting announcements due in 'touch wood" this week I thought it might be time to have a look at the Salary Cap as opposed to footy tactics. I have pulled together what I think the cap is about and a legal mechanism for us to build our own sombrero. This is definitely not an area of expertise that I have, so would be interested in your thoughts on how we can use allowable means to manage our roster to become a destination club.
Deep Dive 5. The Big Picture: Why Cap Strategy is key to Wests Tigers Success
The NRL’s $11.45 million (2025) salary cap is designed to “ensure parity” across clubs, meaning, in theory, that you can't just "buy a premiership." Instead, the clubs that succeed long-term (e.g., Storm, Panthers, Roosters) do so by:
Core Salary Cap Strategy Pillars for the Wests Tigers
1. Foundational Cap Principles
Use a structured model:
These strategies are all technically legal, provided they’re structured transparently and disclosed correctly.
1. Third Party Agreements (TPAs)*
2. High-Paying Jobs for Family Members
Example:
A $300k loan repayable over 10 years at $30k/year = Not counted under the cap if arms-length and properly declared.
4. Discounted Property Deals
📈 Putting it Together: A Sample Strategy for 2025–2030
Year 1–2: Cap Recovery & Ecosystem Build (We are in this phase now)
Every NRL team has to manage thier roster within the NRL cap, but we can, as Wests Tigers:
Given the 'Impending" recruiting announcements due in 'touch wood" this week I thought it might be time to have a look at the Salary Cap as opposed to footy tactics. I have pulled together what I think the cap is about and a legal mechanism for us to build our own sombrero. This is definitely not an area of expertise that I have, so would be interested in your thoughts on how we can use allowable means to manage our roster to become a destination club.
Deep Dive 5. The Big Picture: Why Cap Strategy is key to Wests Tigers Success
The NRL’s $11.45 million (2025) salary cap is designed to “ensure parity” across clubs, meaning, in theory, that you can't just "buy a premiership." Instead, the clubs that succeed long-term (e.g., Storm, Panthers, Roosters) do so by:
- Developing local juniors;
- Maximising player value vs cap hit;
- Building attractive ecosystems off the field; and
- Strategically using third-party agreements (TPAs).
Core Salary Cap Strategy Pillars for the Wests Tigers
1. Foundational Cap Principles
- Spend on spine & forwards first: Invest in 1, 6, 7, 9 and a dominant middle forward. Pay for impact positions.
- Don’t overpay for potential: Back-ended contracts for juniors must include strong performance triggers.
- Avoid cap killers: No long-term, high-value contracts for aging or injury-prone players.
Use a structured model:
- Tier 1: Marquee (Top 4-5 players) – Pay market or overs only if there's external value (fan draw, leadership, brand power).
- Tier 2: Core Starters (8-10 players) – Fair deals, multi-year for cohesion.
- Tier 3: Development (10+) – Minimum or performance-based contracts for juniors and fringe players.
These strategies are all technically legal, provided they’re structured transparently and disclosed correctly.
1. Third Party Agreements (TPAs)*
- Leverage Club Sponsors: Encourage sponsors to independently engage star players (media, ambassador roles).
- Attract External Business Backers: Use the Tigers’ link to Western Sydney and Macarthur regions – rich with private business.
2. High-Paying Jobs for Family Members
- Employ family members of players in corporate/sponsorship/marketing arms, provided the jobs are real.
- Use linked companies: A sponsor or affiliate business hires a player’s spouse or sibling as a brand ambassador, admin staff, or cultural liaison.
- Examples:
- A Polynesian player’s relative working as a cultural officer or community engagement lead.
- Partner runs a junior skills clinic funded through local council or corporate partner.
- Wealthy backers or sponsors provide interest-free loans to players for:
- Home deposits
- Business start-ups
- Education funds
Example:
A $300k loan repayable over 10 years at $30k/year = Not counted under the cap if arms-length and properly declared.
4. Discounted Property Deals
- Link players with developers or real estate firms who offer below-market rates or equity buy-in.
- The player becomes a silent partner or investor in a real estate syndicate (e.g., land development in the Campbelltown region).
- Example: A $1M home sold to a player for $800k with a $200k capital gain in future years = non-cap benefit if arranged independently.
- Offer shares in sponsor-aligned businesses (e.g., gyms, apparel, construction).
- Use a “sweat equity” model: the player adds marketing value, social reach, and local branding.
- Example:
- A player owns 5% of a new F45-style gym co-branded with the Tigers.
- Over 3–5 years, this grows into a valuable passive income source post-career.
📈 Putting it Together: A Sample Strategy for 2025–2030
Year 1–2: Cap Recovery & Ecosystem Build (We are in this phase now)
- Exit bad contracts (e.g., offering early terminations or relegating to NSW Cup).
- Build “Tiger-owned” businesses that can eventually host TPAs.
- Invest in a strong TPA network – small business owners, real estate, car dealers.
- Develop & retain a homegrown spine (e.g., TPS as Api’s successor, retention of Bula).
- Spend TPAs on marquee targets: e.g., luring a disgruntled player with significant off-field value.
- Offer lifestyle incentives: family housing, cultural links, local schooling.
- 60% of roster on value deals (either homegrown or TPAs)
- TPAs cover up to 30% of total player value
- Success compounds: more wins = more fans = more TPAs
Every NRL team has to manage thier roster within the NRL cap, but we can, as Wests Tigers:
- Out-network our adversaries with TPAs and property deals
- Out-nurture other clubs through junior development
- Out-smart the player managers through layered contracts and providing strategic off-field value
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TIGERS
Well-known member
I think the big thing missing from here is what we have just gone through with Stef and Terrell May. You never know what is going to pop up due to the Salary Cap in terms of opportunity or value.
There was no profound long term strategy that delivered us the best forward we have signed since Gareth Ellis. We didn't go after him. He just popped up. May wasn't a bone-fide marquee player when he joined us but he is 98% there.
If you try and go earnestly toe to toe with clubs like Brisbane or the Roosters in terms of recruitment, you're not going to win. That's what Lee and Pascoe never figured out. That's why they hired Bob Fultons son to go to war with Benji and Sheens over while Warren McDonnell was off arranging the5k to get Galvin on our books. Canberra have this figured out very much so in their own terms.
1. Roster Tiering Strategy - I would add / consider the following
For a club seeking transformational change, like us; remaining flexible in the Transfer Market is far more valuable to us than some long term strategy or formula.
2. Incentives.
The biggest incentive we have going to market is being able to offer playing first grade in inner Sydney, and training at the Zurich Center. The rest in terms of third party deals is embroidery around that Club grants have made third party deals a lot less significant than they were say around 2010. Tigers don't compete in terms of sponsor finance bottom line. We actually offer more money to retain our talent that ends up getting knocked back anyway. Ideally that gets fixed with Benji as a long term coach and if we stick to our club DNA.
But, at the same time, to make my point, North Queensland can't get Luai or Turuva. Under normal circumstances and without a decade of abject reputational damage we would be able to recruit more marquee talent, but thats a reputational thing and not down to sweetners from Paul Wakeling motors.
3. Long Contracts.
I'm actually really opposed to long contracts. 4 is my maximum. 5 for absolute historical worldies like Luai. I prefer to keep players sharp and the club sharp by offering shorter deals. But this also folds into my preference for flexibility going to market than having people who drop off on long term deals. Brooks would have played better for us if he knew his tasty contract was up in 3 years instead of 5.
Jolls
Well-known member
@TIGERS all good and valid points; however, I think this is only part of what has to be an overall plan that includes coaching, recruitment, culture etc.
You are on the money in relation to having dollars and space available (or the ability to make space) for when someone drops from a tree. I also agree that the incentives outside of the cap are window dressing; but, while not that relevant now, they will become bargaining chips if (when) we have developed a competitive team with a culture and style that players want to be part of. Then it becomes the lever that enables players to come/stay on unders as opposed to us paying overs for has beens.
If maintaining flexibility was included as a principle would you then agree the tiers as the general guidance for building the roster within the cap or would you dice it some other way?
I'm also not a fan of long contracts for other than a marquee signing; even then I would want performance (exit) clauses for the club and player. We need to create the environment that the player wants to be here and need to ensure that any clauses in the player's favour are linked to something tangible that the club has failed to provide (not just where we finish).
I trust that we have finally turned the corner and that we are documenting the system that Richo has developed so it is repeatable and improvable as we grow.
You are on the money in relation to having dollars and space available (or the ability to make space) for when someone drops from a tree. I also agree that the incentives outside of the cap are window dressing; but, while not that relevant now, they will become bargaining chips if (when) we have developed a competitive team with a culture and style that players want to be part of. Then it becomes the lever that enables players to come/stay on unders as opposed to us paying overs for has beens.
If maintaining flexibility was included as a principle would you then agree the tiers as the general guidance for building the roster within the cap or would you dice it some other way?
I'm also not a fan of long contracts for other than a marquee signing; even then I would want performance (exit) clauses for the club and player. We need to create the environment that the player wants to be here and need to ensure that any clauses in the player's favour are linked to something tangible that the club has failed to provide (not just where we finish).
I trust that we have finally turned the corner and that we are documenting the system that Richo has developed so it is repeatable and improvable as we grow.
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Jolls
Well-known member
Hi Team
My apologies - I have been travelling with work so haven't had a chance to pull together a deep dive this week.
If you have any suggestions for next weeks topic I will do some research and get stuck into it.
Cheers n Beers
Jolls
My apologies - I have been travelling with work so haven't had a chance to pull together a deep dive this week.
If you have any suggestions for next weeks topic I will do some research and get stuck into it.
Cheers n Beers
Jolls
No one would want to deep dive into the pile of manure that was our performance last week. Best to say nothing lol.
Jolls
Well-known member
Not a chance that I would want to dive into that shit pile. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall during the video session and post game review. I wonder how honest the players were in relation to owning that performance. I would also like to know if the coaching staff believed they had prepared the team well or not.
I'm not about to throw Benji and co under the bus for this performance as for all we know the team was well prepared but they believed that the half hearted scramble that got them the win v Saints would be enough to compete with the Storm. Based on Benji's post match, the execution was far from the preparation and sometimes that has nothing to do with the coaching staff.
What we saw on Sunday was a team that gave up; that wasn't coached - each and every player needs to look in the mirror and take responsibility for their own lack of effort. If their response is half of what Melbourne produced against us we will beat Souths.
The performance last week was between the ears of the players - lets hope this week's is as well - but this time it is about players living up to their own standards.
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BunganHead Tiger
Well-known member
A rather belated reply to your informative Deep Dive 5 @Jolls. Firstly congrats on your measured and incisive input into methods required to make West Tigers a Power club and a destination that successful footballers would consider as a real option in the near future.
Leveraging from what you have put forward in your presentation, we should be in a position to capitalise on much of what you have espoused. In terms of offering interest free financial incentives to players to come on board we already have Pepper Money on board as a sponsor. This would be an obvious inducement to a young footballer who could see the long term benefits of purchasing a property with an interest free contract.
Harry Triguboff is Australia's second wealthiest individual and is a former major sponsor of our club. His company, Meriton Group have developments offering riverside living in gentrified suburbs such as Breakfast Point and Canada Bay. These locales offer spacious green areas alongside Parramatta River with cafes, pubs and cycleways that are obvious drawcards to people within the active 20-40 year age demographic. Breakfast Point and Canada Bay are a stones throw from Concord Oval and would be an attractive option for a single footballer or a young man with a family. We should be pushing this as an advantage and a lifestyle based reason for a player to consider Wests Tigers as a positive destination. I know if I had the choice between Breakfast Point and Belmore I know where I would be heading. Besides, Harry Triguboff could buy and sell 'Uncle Nick' a dozen times over!
I am sure that Richo would have all of this on board. The guy has only been in the job for nigh on 12 months and has had to deal with a plethora of operational issues before even needing to consider anything remotely in the strategic basket. Richo is a proven Rugby League CEO and we are fortunate to have him. Despite the despair of last weekend we are in a better shape from a corporate sponsorship and leadership perspective than what we were 18 months ago. Let's see Wests Tigers take the next steps to becoming a Power Player in the NRL.
Yep, our response this weekend will tell us everything, imo.
However, as others have mentioned here before there is a concern that culture change and attitude can only get us so far. A 5-5 start has made us all hopeful, but talent and depth are needed to get us further. I’m not sure we have enough.
Jolls
Well-known member
You are right, there is a lot of support from the club from a corporate and business fan basis that we can tap into. While we should be using it to our advantage now, I think the primary issue is getting the culture, structure and performance right so we can attact the right players to have is consistently in the 8 and pushing for the title. Once we are there it is things like you have outlined above that will keep us there.
Jolls
Well-known member
Given the current situation I am thinking along the lines of tackling (pun intended) either:
Let me know what you would like me to run with (or an alternate topic) and I'll give it a crack. the key here though is this isn't my opinion - it is simply the basis for conversation.
- Defending on the Edges: Fixing the Tigers’ Defensive Weaknesses; or
- Engaging the Fanbase: What do the fans want.
Let me know what you would like me to run with (or an alternate topic) and I'll give it a crack. the key here though is this isn't my opinion - it is simply the basis for conversation.
that performance cannot be judged on the coaching staff, n , yes to be a fly on the wall before and aft that shemozzle
TSP
Well-known member
Conversely, i think the coaching staff need to own quite a bit of it.
Why?
Because its their job to prepare the players mentally and ensure they dont have these lapses.
And if the players arent listening to Benji and not doing what hes asked, thats called "losing the changeroom" at least for that game.
On contrast, AOB owns everything that happens.
I dont know how many lessons Benji wants? Hes not a rookie anymore.
More big losses and id expect him to volunteer to walk. Its not a disgrace, a lot of good players couldnt handle coaching.
He'll go back to the media. We get a new coach and prepare things differently. Not the end of the world.
Rugby league is a sport of broken dreams, reflecting wider society. One of its attractions.
Why?
Because its their job to prepare the players mentally and ensure they dont have these lapses.
And if the players arent listening to Benji and not doing what hes asked, thats called "losing the changeroom" at least for that game.
On contrast, AOB owns everything that happens.
I dont know how many lessons Benji wants? Hes not a rookie anymore.
More big losses and id expect him to volunteer to walk. Its not a disgrace, a lot of good players couldnt handle coaching.
He'll go back to the media. We get a new coach and prepare things differently. Not the end of the world.
Rugby league is a sport of broken dreams, reflecting wider society. One of its attractions.
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