Why bother with a review??

[TIGERS]

Can someone please point me in the direction of some historical evidence that an end of season review is actually a good thing for this football club?

What was the last one?? 2014, Brian Smith??? Did that really change anything??? We ended up with Jason Taylor as a result for goodness sake. They're just to build up a rap sheet to justify changes and sack people. Even worse its just another entry point for more backstabbing and whispers.

The fact of the matter is we can't recruit ANY talent without paying overs, and the talent we do produce gets poached. Thats it. There is nothing more to it. Sure, we improve a bit as a team here and there, but we also can't improve at a rate that is fast enough because we end up dudded by long, multi year contracts.

Until you find a way to get around that core and fundamental problem with the already existing 10 year hoodoo around your neck, things will never change. As long as we are in that cycle you're just re-arranging the same furniture within the same framework.

In terms of corporate governance, who could we possibly bring in that could do a better job than what we have now?? You've got factions and infighting at the board no matter whom is at the helm. Will a new chairman stop leaks to the media? Would a new CEO make the club more lucrative to play for? Will a new chairperson not be subject to the same simmering lack of trust between Wests and Balmain.? I like Lee Hagipantelis. He's a committed benefactor. He's trying things. He has a personality. He's a fan. He's seems to have a better grasp of footy than Marina Go and Mike Bailey ever did. The club has excellent facilities and good sponsorship. We are back at our traditional grounds as a result! He fronts the media more than any other chairperson as far as I can see and communicates bravely and well.

I could be wrong tho.

Is there any real evidence or track record of reviews actually having a positive effect?

 

[innsaneink]

Dunno about evidence of previous reviews elsewhere, but we are going backwards at a rate of knots... Things and people need to change.
There's no guarantees in all this... But the entire set up from top to bottom needs a good going over.. Some areas more than others

 

[TIGERS]

“who could we possibly bring in that could do a better job then what we have now”

8 wins in the last 50 games …

It takes a special group to achieve such results ,,, let’s just keep things the same because they are going so well…

OK sure, the results were crap. Agreed. But where does corporate governance come into it in this particular case??? Tell me how actions of our board in the last 50 games had an adverse effect on results as opposed to our coaches and the football department?? (And bloody players too)

From 2022 to 2023, the board backed Tim Sheens and his coaching/football philosophy TO THE HILT. When Sheens was offered and accepted the role it included the luxury of not immediately taking over the first grade side in 2022 and he was given more time than most coaches would to build, plan and recruit for 2023.

Even with all the great new facilities, recruitment, and Sheens getting 6 extra months of planning time to be totally dedicated to 2023 (incl getting rid of Hastings, and 200 passes a day in training etc), Sheens slunks out the back door with a million dollars in his backpack (again). So much for "you'll see a completely different Wests Tigers side in 2023."

Does the club have enough money?? Yes, (we can even afford play at our Traditional grounds again)
Does the club have great facilities?? Yes
Does the club have a major sponsor?? Yes
Does the club have good membership numbers?? Yes
Has the club backed its football department?? Yes. - Totally, from my point of view.
This has not always been the case at our football club...

Beyond all of that, who on earth is going to step in and how are they going to actually be able to do anything differently? You do realise that Rugby League boardrooms are an absolute vipers nest of political p*ss poor behaviour. Its just such a lazy analysis to say "Rip it out and start again". Thats all we bloody ever do.

 

[cochise]

My biggest problem with the club is out inability to set and maintain a strategic direction. We put in place a 5 year plan including a coaching transition, with in months our board is undermining that strategic plan and then changing direction. We do this regularly.

Off the field we go from one blunder to another,

What do a local real estate agent, a painter and a former musician have to add to the running of a modern professional sporting organisation. The skill set required to run a leagues club is vastly different from those required to run a modern professional sporting organisation. Maybe they have the skills required but evidence suggests that they don't.

My reason for wanting to see a review was there is some fundamentally wrong in our club, a decade of non finals and the continued errors are evidence of that. An external review was the only mechanism available to actually look at the club and determine what the issues are and get recommendations on how to improve that.

Now you may be happy with the direction of the club, I was not.

 

[cochise]

OK sure, the results were crap. Agreed. But where does corporate governance come into it in this particular case??? Tell me how actions of our board in the last 50 games had an adverse effect on results as opposed to our coaches and the football department?? (And bloody players too)

From 2022 to 2023, the board backed Tim Sheens and his coaching/football philosophy TO THE HILT. When Sheens was offered and accepted the role it included the luxury of not immediately taking over the first grade side in 2022 and he was given more time than most coaches would to build, plan and recruit for 2023.

Even with all the great new facilities, recruitment, and Sheens getting 6 extra months of planning time to be totally dedicated to 2023 (incl getting rid of Hastings, and 200 passes a day in training etc), Sheens slunks out the back door with a million dollars in his backpack (again). So much for "you'll see a completely different Wests Tigers side in 2023."

Does the club have enough money?? Yes, (we can even afford play at our Traditional grounds again)
Does the club have great facilities?? Yes
Does the club have a major sponsor?? Yes
Does the club have good membership numbers?? Yes
Has the club backed its football department?? Yes. - Totally, from my point of view.
This has not always been the case at our football club...

Beyond all of that, who on earth is going to step in and how are they going to actually be able to do anything differently? You do realise that Rugby League boardrooms are an absolute vipers nest of political p*ss poor behaviour. Its just such a lazy analysis to say "Rip it out and start again". Thats all we bloody ever do.

Our club undermined the football department during the last season?

 

[Tom Shines]

OK sure, the results were crap. Agreed. But where does corporate governance come into it in this particular case??? Tell me how actions of our board in the last 50 games had an adverse effect on results as opposed to our coaches and the football department?? (And bloody players too)

From 2022 to 2023, the board backed Tim Sheens and his coaching/football philosophy TO THE HILT. When Sheens was offered and accepted the role it included the luxury of not immediately taking over the first grade side in 2022 and he was given more time than most coaches would to build, plan and recruit for 2023.

Even with all the great new facilities, recruitment, and Sheens getting 6 extra months of planning time to be totally dedicated to 2023 (incl getting rid of Hastings, and 200 passes a day in training etc), Sheens slunks out the back door with a million dollars in his backpack (again). So much for "you'll see a completely different Wests Tigers side in 2023."

Does the club have enough money?? Yes, (we can even afford play at our Traditional grounds again)
Does the club have great facilities?? Yes
Does the club have a major sponsor?? Yes
Does the club have good membership numbers?? Yes
Has the club backed its football department?? Yes. - Totally, from my point of view.
This has not always been the case at our football club...

Beyond all of that, who on earth is going to step in and how are they going to actually be able to do anything differently? You do realise that Rugby League boardrooms are an absolute vipers nest of political p*ss poor behaviour. Its just such a lazy analysis to say "Rip it out and start again". Thats all we bloody ever do.

Who makes decisions to appoint coaches and club recruitment managers ?

who makes the decision to re- appoint Sheens .. a once sacked coach already and who took legal action against the club previously? Is there any other type of business you can imagine this happening?

who signs off on terrible and lengthy player deals?

the coach gets the bullet for poor performances … why shouldn’t the people that appoint them?

Teams like the Roosters and Melbourne are in the finals every year … how would you compare their corporate governance to the Tigers?

 

[426Tlgerland]

I feel our board has little to no football experience for one .
there are a lot of long term people on the board so once it gets itself into a rut you can’t change it unless you take out a majority of the people on it and clean it out with fresh faces fresh ideas , and one of the most important things is to remove the jobs for the boys crap Joe Cool was added but that is no where near enough to make it run better , if he comes in with fresh ideas that don’t suite the clowns they just vote it down , if we have 7 on the board you need to remove 3 to 4 .
lee is a major sponsor but unfortunately he puts his face in everything plus on radio , that is just no good , and also the board needs to bring In a rule , if you are caught leaking confidential info from meetings you are sacked at the very next board meeting , no questions asked ,
Justin , has turned our finances around , he again should just do that and run the day to day business , stay off the field on game days , by all means turn up , be in the change rooms before or after games , but stay off the field prior to games , that’s not your place .
anyways , my rant won’t do anything so we just wait and see what happens

 

[Tom Shines]

There is only one measure of success that should matter to any professional sporting club… winning games and ultimately winning competitions… not just making up the numbers ..

This applies to everyone .. from the guys that pack the team bus up to the board …

No one should be getting a pass because of “financials”… not these days when the NRL doles out so much money to every club

 

[Glenji95]

I feel our board has little to no football experience for one .
there are a lot of long term people on the board so once it gets itself into a rut you can’t change it unless you take out a majority of the people on it and clean it out with fresh faces fresh ideas , and one of the most important things is to remove the jobs for the boys crap Joe Cool was added but that is no where near enough to make it run better , if he comes in with fresh ideas that don’t suite the clowns they just vote it down , if we have 7 on the board you need to remove 3 to 4 .
lee is a major sponsor but unfortunately he puts his face in everything plus on radio , that is just no good , and also the board needs to bring In a rule , if you are caught leaking confidential info from meetings you are sacked at the very next board meeting , no questions asked ,
Justin , has turned our finances around , he again should just do that and run the day to day business , stay off the field on game days , by all means turn up , be in the change rooms before or after games , but stay off the field prior to games , that’s not your place .
anyways , my rant won’t do anything so we just wait and see what happens

Pascoe for me needs to go. He may have done some good during his run as CEO, but like Lee he has embarrassed the club as well. Under his run we’ve played no finals, gotten our first wooden spoons in history, he’s been suspended because he failed to do his job right, is hanging around the players on game day in the middle of training when they need to focus and decides to go on holiday during the season when he has the off season to take a holiday if he chooses. I’m sure there’s more but I can’t think of anything else at the moment, but given he’s been CEO since 2015 and hasn’t seen success, how he still has a job is beyond me.

 

[TIGERS]

My biggest problem with the club is out inability to set and maintain a strategic direction. We put in place a 5 year plan including a coaching transition, with in months our board is undermining that strategic plan and then changing direction. We do this regularly.

Off the field we go from one blunder to another,

What do a local real estate agent, a painter and a former musician have to add to the running of a modern professional sporting organisation. The skill set required to run a leagues club is vastly different from those required to run a modern professional sporting organisation. Maybe they have the skills required but evidence suggests that they don't.

My reason for wanting to see a review was there is some fundamentally wrong in our club, a decade of non finals and the continued errors are evidence of that. An external review was the only mechanism available to actually look at the club and determine what the issues are and get recommendations on how to improve that.

Now you may be happy with the direction of the club, I was not.

My biggest problem with the club is out inability to set and maintain a strategic direction. We put in place a 5 year plan including a coaching transition, with in months our board is undermining that strategic plan and then changing direction. We do this regularly.

Off the field we go from one blunder to another,

What do a local real estate agent, a painter and a former musician have to add to the running of a modern professional sporting organisation. The skill set required to run a leagues club is vastly different from those required to run a modern professional sporting organisation. Maybe they have the skills required but evidence suggests that they don't.

My reason for wanting to see a review was there is some fundamentally wrong in our club, a decade of non finals and the continued errors are evidence of that. An external review was the only mechanism available to actually look at the club and determine what the issues are and get recommendations on how to improve that.

Now you may be happy with the direction of the club, I was not.

"Inability to set and maintain a strategic direction / 5 year plan" = Tim Sheens resigned mate. It wasn't the Board. The 5 year plan simply meant 2 years with Sheens as our interim-coach and then a 3 year contract for Benji. It was a 5 year succession plan. It was never this Phil Gould style magical penrith-esq roadmap thing that the hack journos have cracked it up to be. Tim Sheens will be succeeded by Benji. The main end result of said plan was Benji Marshall becoming our Head Coach and that is precisley what has ended up happening. Its been the least tulmutious or acrimonious change of head coach this club has ever gone through.

"What do a local real estate agent, a painter and a former musician have to add to the running of a modern professional sporting organisation?" = They dont ''run'' the professional sporting organisation. Thats the executive and the football department's Job. Board members represent club members and other stakeholders, vote on who is CEO and Coach, and approve key exec decisions. (A somewhat well known actor owns South Sydney FYI and they don't do so bad.)

''Off the field we go from one blunder to another,'"
Like what specifically?? Beyond News Corp windups and hack jobslike Anzac Jerseys.

"There is something fundamentally wrong in our club"
Look, the fundimental problem often shifts. Its hasn't always been the same people at the helm. The problems that has inhibited our clubs success have not been a consistent thread. There have really been 3 development cycles where different coaches and regimes have either got it wrong or have been unlucky.


If the external reviewers know so much, why aren't they running football clubs?

 

[WestsEffTheRest]

Hi Justin

 

[twentyforty]

Can someone please point me in the direction of some historical evidence that an end of season review is actually a good thing for this football club?

What was the last one?? 2014, Brian Smith??? Did that really change anything??? We ended up with Jason Taylor as a result for goodness sake. They're just to build up a rap sheet to justify changes and sack people. Even worse its just another entry point for more backstabbing and whispers.

The fact of the matter is we can't recruit ANY talent without paying overs, and the talent we do produce gets poached. Thats it. There is nothing more to it. Sure, we improve a bit as a team here and there, but we also can't improve at a rate that is fast enough because we end up dudded by long, multi year contracts.

Until you find a way to get around that core and fundamental problem with the already existing 10 year hoodoo around your neck, things will never change. As long as we are in that cycle you're just re-arranging the same furniture within the same framework.

In terms of corporate governance, who could we possibly bring in that could do a better job than what we have now?? You've got factions and infighting at the board no matter whom is at the helm. Will a new chairman stop leaks to the media? Would a new CEO make the club more lucrative to play for? Will a new chairperson not be subject to the same simmering lack of trust between Wests and Balmain.? I like Lee Hagipantelis. He's a committed benefactor. He's trying things. He has a personality. He's a fan. He's seems to have a better grasp of footy than Marina Go and Mike Bailey ever did. The club has excellent facilities and good sponsorship. We are back at our traditional grounds as a result! He fronts the media more than any other chairperson as far as I can see and communicates bravely and well.

I could be wrong tho.

Is there any real evidence or track record of reviews actually having a positive effect?

Your opening statement highlights the issue. When was the last time the club had a proper review? I mean a serious review, carried out by qualified OD professionals? Not token reviews that only serve to support a predetermined outcome.

 

[cochise]

"Inability to set and maintain a strategic direction / 5 year plan" = Tim Sheens resigned mate. It wasn't the Board. The 5 year plan simply meant 2 years with Sheens as our interim-coach and then a 3 year contract for Benji. It was a 5 year succession plan. It was never this Phil Gould style magical penrith-esq roadmap thing that the hack journos have cracked it up to be. Tim Sheens will be succeeded by Benji. The main end result of said plan was Benji Marshall becoming our Head Coach and that is precisley what has ended up happening. Its been the least tulmutious or acrimonious change of head coach this club has ever gone through.

"What do a local real estate agent, a painter and a former musician have to add to the running of a modern professional sporting organisation?" = They dont ''run'' the professional sporting organisation. Thats the executive and the football department's Job. Board members represent club members and other stakeholders, vote on who is CEO and Coach, and approve key exec decisions. (A somewhat well known actor owns South Sydney FYI and they don't do so bad.)

''Off the field we go from one blunder to another,'"
Like what specifically?? Beyond News Corp windups and hack jobslike Anzac Jerseys.

"There is something fundamentally wrong in our club"
Look, the fundimental problem often shifts. Its hasn't always been the same people at the helm. The problems that has inhibited our clubs success have not been a consistent thread. There have really been 3 development cycles where different coaches and regimes have either got it wrong or have been unlucky.


If the external reviewers know so much, why aren't they running football clubs?

Tim sheens didn't stand down, if he did why are we still paying him and insisted on him signing a non disclosure agreement?

Even if he did stand down there is so much evidence of us changing strategic direction just in relation to Tim. He went from pathways, to head of football, to coach and then sacked in less than 2 years. We anointed him the god of football at our club and then 12 months later we don't even consult him about appointing a head of recruitment? Those are strategic direction changes that show poor planning and fall directly on the CEO and board.

I have done plenty of work at a governance level, I know what the role of the board is. It is to set, monitor and maintain strategic direction of an organisation, the CEO's role is to implement that direction. We fail at both of those levels.

You don't think a guy that had senior executive roles in the NRL and has spent time on numerous sporting, including boards in Rugby league clubs would have a fair understanding of corporate governance in sport? You don't think he might be able to take a look at our club and make recommendations for improvement?

 

[Vicious]

My biggest problem with the club is out inability to set and maintain a strategic direction. We put in place a 5 year plan including a coaching transition, with in months our board is undermining that strategic plan and then changing direction. We do this regularly.

Off the field we go from one blunder to another,

What do a local real estate agent, a painter and a former musician have to add to the running of a modern professional sporting organisation. The skill set required to run a leagues club is vastly different from those required to run a modern professional sporting organisation. Maybe they have the skills required but evidence suggests that they don't.

My reason for wanting to see a review was there is some fundamentally wrong in our club, a decade of non finals and the continued errors are evidence of that. An external review was the only mechanism available to actually look at the club and determine what the issues are and get recommendations on how to improve that.

Now you may be happy with the direction of the club, I was not.

Cochise I think blind Freddy can put two and two together and work out it was player power that indicated they wanted Benji as our coach and were unconvinced that Sheens could help us moving forward, so in essence we had already done our own internal review well before this external review took place.
You and all our fans are right on one thing, nobody knows who is in control and I believe that the constant criticism has scared all our power brokers into this situation.
Lee was at least prepared to come out and be our spokesperson, but criticism of him doing so has since scared him back into his shell.
If this external review is fair dinkum, it should be stating the obvious and saying we do not need to be sacking large numbers of people involved within the club. Instability has been a large part of the reason we are in this horrid position.
We simply need honesty and accountability, someone to be appointed as our spokesperson, come out and tell our fans and the media scumbags exactly who is in charge of player recruitment/retention and managing our salary cap etc.
By keeping these things secret it causes more trouble than it’s worth with the constant guessing from fans and media speculation.
I can’t stand Phil Gould, but there is no doubt he does a great job in playing the media and leaving no doubt he is the main man controlling the player recruitment/retention and managing the Bulldogs salary cap.
We need someone to do the same, which would also take a lot of heat off Benji in doing so.
Is Matthew Betsey that man who can do this, I hope he is ?

 

[WestsEffTheRest]

Lee was at least prepared to come out and be our spokesperson, but criticism of him doing so has since scared him back into his shell.

No one asked him to be the spokesperson that's the thing. The more he opened his mouth the more foolish he made himself & the club look.

 

[Vicious]

No one asked him to be the spokesperson that's the thing. The more he opened his mouth the more foolish he made himself & the club look.

The point is he was the only person prepared to come out and be a spokesperson for the club.
We didn’t have a designated Football Manager such as Gus at the Bulldogs. I would presume now with have employed Matthew Betsey into that role, he should now become our spokesperson.

 

[WestsEffTheRest]

The point is he was the only person prepared to come out and be a spokesperson for the club.
We didn’t have a designated Football Manager such as Gus at the Bulldogs. I would presume now with have employed Matthew Betsey into that role, he should now become our spokesperson.

Or we can act like a professional organisation for once & keep things in house

 

[Todd Packer]

"Inability to set and maintain a strategic direction / 5 year plan" = Tim Sheens resigned mate. It wasn't the Board. The 5 year plan simply meant 2 years with Sheens as our interim-coach and then a 3 year contract for Benji. It was a 5 year succession plan. It was never this Phil Gould style magical penrith-esq roadmap thing that the hack journos have cracked it up to be. Tim Sheens will be succeeded by Benji. The main end result of said plan was Benji Marshall becoming our Head Coach and that is precisley what has ended up happening. Its been the least tulmutious or acrimonious change of head coach this club has ever gone through.

"What do a local real estate agent, a painter and a former musician have to add to the running of a modern professional sporting organisation?" = They dont ''run'' the professional sporting organisation. Thats the executive and the football department's Job. Board members represent club members and other stakeholders, vote on who is CEO and Coach, and approve key exec decisions. (A somewhat well known actor owns South Sydney FYI and they don't do so bad.)

''Off the field we go from one blunder to another,'"
Like what specifically?? Beyond News Corp windups and hack jobslike Anzac Jerseys.

"There is something fundamentally wrong in our club"
Look, the fundimental problem often shifts. Its hasn't always been the same people at the helm. The problems that has inhibited our clubs success have not been a consistent thread. There have really been 3 development cycles where different coaches and regimes have either got it wrong or have been unlucky.


If the external reviewers know so much, why aren't they running football clubs?

Mate you're too intelligent and make reasoned points as opposed to mob mentality, petition wielding, burnings at the stake.
You need to find somewhere else to post.
This place isn't for you.

 

[Vicious]

Or we can act like a professional organisation for once & keep things in house

Not possible for any club who’s been down the bottom of the ladder for the past few years as the media speculation is rife and player managers use clubs like us to inflate their players values.
Fans and media want to know who is accountable for player recruitment/retention and managing our salary cap correctly.
We know Benji as coach has and should have a large say, we know our recruitment manager has a say and we know our board ultimately have to approve any big decisions, but I assume Benji nor Fulton nor the board are directly across our salary cap, forecasting what our players, particularly our emerging players and ageing players are likely to be worth in 2 to 4 years time and making sure we are factoring that in all recruitment/retention decisions.

 

[hammertime]

"What do a local real estate agent, a painter and a former musician have to add to the running of a modern professional sporting organisation?" = They dont ''run'' the professional sporting organisation. Thats the executive and the football department's Job. Board members represent club members and other stakeholders, vote on who is CEO and Coach, and approve key exec decisions. (A somewhat well known actor owns South Sydney FYI and they don't do so bad.)

Man... this one is paper-thin. The board set the strategic direction for the club. Yes, they don't do the day-to-day "running", but they provide the direction for the CEO and the org. Lee himself said recently that Justin serves at the direction of the board.

But let's take your statement as is and ignore their bigger remit. For those tasks alone, you need to know how to run a business or football club to even select the right CEO, Coach even Head Recruiters now apparently..., etc.

If it was just all about voting with any Tom, Dick, and Harry, you'd see painters and real estate agents on the board of BHP or General Motors.

Are they bad guys? Hell no. I'm sure they have good intentions and love the club. But we pick the best players for the field, the same needs to be done at the board.

Go have a look at the Roosters or Panthers board. It's an eye-opener. Also, Russel owns Souths with Packer and Cannon-Brooks. 2 absolute titans of business. Russel is smart enough to know his strengths.