Starford To’a #253

[batboy]

Gildart, Kei, Pauga, Hoffman, Tupou all centres with AJ & Talau injured. Trial & pick the best performers, it's really that simple.

Of course it is....
I could save the hassle and put my hand up to play centre as well... For free!!

3 of your options have already shown they're not NRL quality, With the other 2 unknown...
It may be simple to pick the "Best" But the Best may be no where near good enough, And what's back up if we get 1 or 2 more injuries?

I have to agree with this, even if we assume Gildart does well, our next most experienced is Roberts and god help us if he's our fulltime centre.

Hoping we find a gem in Tupou or Toá, quietly confident they may be able to do a job but NRL experience is definitely lacking in the 3/4

Mate,
If our back rowers were Luke Lewis and Gareth Ellis, I'd have no problem at all with Tupou, Toa, Even the Jet would go well.... But you just can't have half mast Back Rowers and Half Mast centres playing together....
Which is all we've had - for the better part of a decade, Which is mostly the problems with our halves and wingers... Halves are isolated because Back Rowers and Centres are no threat (In attack or defence) and wingers are posted because there's nothing in between them and mid field...
Put some brains / quality in these 2 positions both sides of the field and we improve 50%

I feel Garner has some upside in this area, But he's not a champion or a leader - more a follower.... Get a good centre on his side (Justin Olam, Joey Manu) and that's one side fixed... The other - God knows....


The other side will have Blore. I haven’t seen too much of him playing 80mins but he looks like he can defend pretty well for a young player.

Mate, I don't care how good he is - He's not going to teach himself (And a rookie centre) how to deal with minute to minute NRL attack and Defence against quality sides... He's just not!!

I've never seen anything like it... The WT's for the last however long just think you put all these talented young blokes in a side and they'll be a top 8 NRL Side... It doesn't work like that - NEVER HAS... EVER!!

Kids in key positions need to be surrounded with Quality and Experience - Young centres need to play beside a great Back Rower or a great Winger to teach them how to play the game, where to be, when to go or not go...
Our recent history has proven how all the best kids won't make the best team - won't even make a better than 50% team...

We should have thrown the earth at the Morris boys, They'd have given us some miles on both sides...

Also, The best kids aren't always the best learners.... They're not gonna listen to a bloke who's played 10 more games than them. They might listen to a representative player who's played 200 games more than them

Panthers went ok with some young boys

You seem to be overlooking the fact that from 6-13 are actual representative players...
(Bar Leota - Who would be a rep player if there were rep games the last 2 years)

Put Yeo at lock for us playing both sides as he does at Penrith and you have exactly what I've said.

They went ok because they have a great coaching structure that knows how to build game plans around their strengths & weaknesses whilst continue to develop players from potential into 1st graders.

We have never outside of Sheens and Cleary here had a coaching structure that could do anything close.

Winning = rep honors. Not many players ever get picked from non winning sides year in year out.

Except the good players??
Woods, Tedesco... Farah
Gallen and Bird from the Dark Sharks days...
There's a pot load!! The best players are the best players.
Put those exact players in our side - We're a winning side all of a sudden.
Not even sure what point you're trying to make??

There's not many rep sides, And not many spots in each rep side....
Even in Origin, There's only 36 Players (Out of almost 500)

 

[Mighty_Tiger]

Gildart, Kei, Pauga, Hoffman, Tupou all centres with AJ & Talau injured. Trial & pick the best performers, it's really that simple.

Of course it is....
I could save the hassle and put my hand up to play centre as well... For free!!

3 of your options have already shown they're not NRL quality, With the other 2 unknown...
It may be simple to pick the "Best" But the Best may be no where near good enough, And what's back up if we get 1 or 2 more injuries?

I have to agree with this, even if we assume Gildart does well, our next most experienced is Roberts and god help us if he's our fulltime centre.

Hoping we find a gem in Tupou or Toá, quietly confident they may be able to do a job but NRL experience is definitely lacking in the 3/4

Mate,
If our back rowers were Luke Lewis and Gareth Ellis, I'd have no problem at all with Tupou, Toa, Even the Jet would go well.... But you just can't have half mast Back Rowers and Half Mast centres playing together....
Which is all we've had - for the better part of a decade, Which is mostly the problems with our halves and wingers... Halves are isolated because Back Rowers and Centres are no threat (In attack or defence) and wingers are posted because there's nothing in between them and mid field...
Put some brains / quality in these 2 positions both sides of the field and we improve 50%

I feel Garner has some upside in this area, But he's not a champion or a leader - more a follower.... Get a good centre on his side (Justin Olam, Joey Manu) and that's one side fixed... The other - God knows....


The other side will have Blore. I haven’t seen too much of him playing 80mins but he looks like he can defend pretty well for a young player.

Mate, I don't care how good he is - He's not going to teach himself (And a rookie centre) how to deal with minute to minute NRL attack and Defence against quality sides... He's just not!!

I've never seen anything like it... The WT's for the last however long just think you put all these talented young blokes in a side and they'll be a top 8 NRL Side... It doesn't work like that - NEVER HAS... EVER!!

Kids in key positions need to be surrounded with Quality and Experience - Young centres need to play beside a great Back Rower or a great Winger to teach them how to play the game, where to be, when to go or not go...
Our recent history has proven how all the best kids won't make the best team - won't even make a better than 50% team...

We should have thrown the earth at the Morris boys, They'd have given us some miles on both sides...

Also, The best kids aren't always the best learners.... They're not gonna listen to a bloke who's played 10 more games than them. They might listen to a representative player who's played 200 games more than them

Panthers went ok with some young boys

You seem to be overlooking the fact that from 6-13 are actual representative players...
(Bar Leota - Who would be a rep player if there were rep games the last 2 years)

Put Yeo at lock for us playing both sides as he does at Penrith and you have exactly what I've said.

They went ok because they have a great coaching structure that knows how to build game plans around their strengths & weaknesses whilst continue to develop players from potential into 1st graders.

We have never outside of Sheens and Cleary here had a coaching structure that could do anything close.

Winning = rep honors. Not many players ever get picked from non winning sides year in year out.

Except the good players??
Woods, Tedesco... Farah
Gallen and Bird from the Dark Sharks days...
There's a pot load!! The best players are the best players.
Put those exact players in our side - We're a winning side all of a sudden.
Not even sure what point you're trying to make??

There's not many rep sides, And not many spots in each rep side....
Even in Origin, There's only 36 Players (Out of almost 500)

We had Woods, Teddy, Farah in our side and we weren’t a winning side. The coaching has more to do than just having great players.

 

[batboy]

Gildart, Kei, Pauga, Hoffman, Tupou all centres with AJ & Talau injured. Trial & pick the best performers, it's really that simple.

Of course it is....
I could save the hassle and put my hand up to play centre as well... For free!!

3 of your options have already shown they're not NRL quality, With the other 2 unknown...
It may be simple to pick the "Best" But the Best may be no where near good enough, And what's back up if we get 1 or 2 more injuries?

I have to agree with this, even if we assume Gildart does well, our next most experienced is Roberts and god help us if he's our fulltime centre.

Hoping we find a gem in Tupou or Toá, quietly confident they may be able to do a job but NRL experience is definitely lacking in the 3/4

Mate,
If our back rowers were Luke Lewis and Gareth Ellis, I'd have no problem at all with Tupou, Toa, Even the Jet would go well.... But you just can't have half mast Back Rowers and Half Mast centres playing together....
Which is all we've had - for the better part of a decade, Which is mostly the problems with our halves and wingers... Halves are isolated because Back Rowers and Centres are no threat (In attack or defence) and wingers are posted because there's nothing in between them and mid field...
Put some brains / quality in these 2 positions both sides of the field and we improve 50%

I feel Garner has some upside in this area, But he's not a champion or a leader - more a follower.... Get a good centre on his side (Justin Olam, Joey Manu) and that's one side fixed... The other - God knows....


The other side will have Blore. I haven’t seen too much of him playing 80mins but he looks like he can defend pretty well for a young player.

Mate, I don't care how good he is - He's not going to teach himself (And a rookie centre) how to deal with minute to minute NRL attack and Defence against quality sides... He's just not!!

I've never seen anything like it... The WT's for the last however long just think you put all these talented young blokes in a side and they'll be a top 8 NRL Side... It doesn't work like that - NEVER HAS... EVER!!

Kids in key positions need to be surrounded with Quality and Experience - Young centres need to play beside a great Back Rower or a great Winger to teach them how to play the game, where to be, when to go or not go...
Our recent history has proven how all the best kids won't make the best team - won't even make a better than 50% team...

We should have thrown the earth at the Morris boys, They'd have given us some miles on both sides...

Also, The best kids aren't always the best learners.... They're not gonna listen to a bloke who's played 10 more games than them. They might listen to a representative player who's played 200 games more than them

Panthers went ok with some young boys

You seem to be overlooking the fact that from 6-13 are actual representative players...
(Bar Leota - Who would be a rep player if there were rep games the last 2 years)

Put Yeo at lock for us playing both sides as he does at Penrith and you have exactly what I've said.

They went ok because they have a great coaching structure that knows how to build game plans around their strengths & weaknesses whilst continue to develop players from potential into 1st graders.

We have never outside of Sheens and Cleary here had a coaching structure that could do anything close.

Winning = rep honors. Not many players ever get picked from non winning sides year in year out.

Except the good players??
Woods, Tedesco... Farah
Gallen and Bird from the Dark Sharks days...
There's a pot load!! The best players are the best players.
Put those exact players in our side - We're a winning side all of a sudden.
Not even sure what point you're trying to make??

There's not many rep sides, And not many spots in each rep side....
Even in Origin, There's only 36 Players (Out of almost 500)

We had Woods, Teddy, Farah in our side and we weren’t a winning side. The coaching has more to do than just having great players.

You say Winning = Rep Players,
We had rep players and we didn't win (I pointed this out) - You've agreed...
Then you say it's the coaching that makes players great - We had those (rep) players - the Penrith coach, And still didn't win.

Payne Haas is the best prop in the game, Rep Honours - Almost winning Wooden Spoons...
I don't know (or care) if you're arguing or agreeing... I'm out.

 

[Tim Sheens]

Gildart, Kei, Pauga, Hoffman, Tupou all centres with AJ & Talau injured. Trial & pick the best performers, it's really that simple.

Of course it is....
I could save the hassle and put my hand up to play centre as well... For free!!

3 of your options have already shown they're not NRL quality, With the other 2 unknown...
It may be simple to pick the "Best" But the Best may be no where near good enough, And what's back up if we get 1 or 2 more injuries?

I have to agree with this, even if we assume Gildart does well, our next most experienced is Roberts and god help us if he's our fulltime centre.

Hoping we find a gem in Tupou or Toá, quietly confident they may be able to do a job but NRL experience is definitely lacking in the 3/4

Mate,
If our back rowers were Luke Lewis and Gareth Ellis, I'd have no problem at all with Tupou, Toa, Even the Jet would go well.... But you just can't have half mast Back Rowers and Half Mast centres playing together....
Which is all we've had - for the better part of a decade, Which is mostly the problems with our halves and wingers... Halves are isolated because Back Rowers and Centres are no threat (In attack or defence) and wingers are posted because there's nothing in between them and mid field...
Put some brains / quality in these 2 positions both sides of the field and we improve 50%

I feel Garner has some upside in this area, But he's not a champion or a leader - more a follower.... Get a good centre on his side (Justin Olam, Joey Manu) and that's one side fixed... The other - God knows....


The other side will have Blore. I haven’t seen too much of him playing 80mins but he looks like he can defend pretty well for a young player.

Mate, I don't care how good he is - He's not going to teach himself (And a rookie centre) how to deal with minute to minute NRL attack and Defence against quality sides... He's just not!!

I've never seen anything like it... The WT's for the last however long just think you put all these talented young blokes in a side and they'll be a top 8 NRL Side... It doesn't work like that - NEVER HAS... EVER!!

Kids in key positions need to be surrounded with Quality and Experience - Young centres need to play beside a great Back Rower or a great Winger to teach them how to play the game, where to be, when to go or not go...
Our recent history has proven how all the best kids won't make the best team - won't even make a better than 50% team...

We should have thrown the earth at the Morris boys, They'd have given us some miles on both sides...

Also, The best kids aren't always the best learners.... They're not gonna listen to a bloke who's played 10 more games than them. They might listen to a representative player who's played 200 games more than them

Panthers went ok with some young boys

You seem to be overlooking the fact that from 6-13 are actual representative players...
(Bar Leota - Who would be a rep player if there were rep games the last 2 years)

Put Yeo at lock for us playing both sides as he does at Penrith and you have exactly what I've said.

They went ok because they have a great coaching structure that knows how to build game plans around their strengths & weaknesses whilst continue to develop players from potential into 1st graders.

We have never outside of Sheens and Cleary here had a coaching structure that could do anything close.

Winning = rep honors. Not many players ever get picked from non winning sides year in year out.

Except the good players??
Woods, Tedesco... Farah
Gallen and Bird from the Dark Sharks days...
There's a pot load!! The best players are the best players.
Put those exact players in our side - We're a winning side all of a sudden.
Not even sure what point you're trying to make??

There's not many rep sides, And not many spots in each rep side....
Even in Origin, There's only 36 Players (Out of almost 500)

We had Woods, Teddy, Farah in our side and we weren’t a winning side. The coaching has more to do than just having great players.

WT had the likes of Sitaleki Akaola (excuse spelling?) and Cory Patterson playing on the wing more than occasionally in 2014, so we can be thankful that things aren't likely to be that bad this season.

Barring injury To’a is not likely to play either there or at fullback this season, though hopefully he is good enough to at least put on the pressure for a starting spot somewhere.

 

[Chainlink]

Gildart, Kei, Pauga, Hoffman, Tupou all centres with AJ & Talau injured. Trial & pick the best performers, it's really that simple.

Of course it is....
I could save the hassle and put my hand up to play centre as well... For free!!

3 of your options have already shown they're not NRL quality, With the other 2 unknown...
It may be simple to pick the "Best" But the Best may be no where near good enough, And what's back up if we get 1 or 2 more injuries?

I have to agree with this, even if we assume Gildart does well, our next most experienced is Roberts and god help us if he's our fulltime centre.

Hoping we find a gem in Tupou or Toá, quietly confident they may be able to do a job but NRL experience is definitely lacking in the 3/4

Mate,
If our back rowers were Luke Lewis and Gareth Ellis, I'd have no problem at all with Tupou, Toa, Even the Jet would go well.... But you just can't have half mast Back Rowers and Half Mast centres playing together....
Which is all we've had - for the better part of a decade, Which is mostly the problems with our halves and wingers... Halves are isolated because Back Rowers and Centres are no threat (In attack or defence) and wingers are posted because there's nothing in between them and mid field...
Put some brains / quality in these 2 positions both sides of the field and we improve 50%

I feel Garner has some upside in this area, But he's not a champion or a leader - more a follower.... Get a good centre on his side (Justin Olam, Joey Manu) and that's one side fixed... The other - God knows....


The other side will have Blore. I haven’t seen too much of him playing 80mins but he looks like he can defend pretty well for a young player.

Mate, I don't care how good he is - He's not going to teach himself (And a rookie centre) how to deal with minute to minute NRL attack and Defence against quality sides... He's just not!!

I've never seen anything like it... The WT's for the last however long just think you put all these talented young blokes in a side and they'll be a top 8 NRL Side... It doesn't work like that - NEVER HAS... EVER!!

Kids in key positions need to be surrounded with Quality and Experience - Young centres need to play beside a great Back Rower or a great Winger to teach them how to play the game, where to be, when to go or not go...
Our recent history has proven how all the best kids won't make the best team - won't even make a better than 50% team...

We should have thrown the earth at the Morris boys, They'd have given us some miles on both sides...

Also, The best kids aren't always the best learners.... They're not gonna listen to a bloke who's played 10 more games than them. They might listen to a representative player who's played 200 games more than them

Panthers went ok with some young boys

You seem to be overlooking the fact that from 6-13 are actual representative players...
(Bar Leota - Who would be a rep player if there were rep games the last 2 years)

Put Yeo at lock for us playing both sides as he does at Penrith and you have exactly what I've said.

They went ok because they have a great coaching structure that knows how to build game plans around their strengths & weaknesses whilst continue to develop players from potential into 1st graders.

We have never outside of Sheens and Cleary here had a coaching structure that could do anything close.

Winning = rep honors. Not many players ever get picked from non winning sides year in year out.

Except the good players??
Woods, Tedesco... Farah
Gallen and Bird from the Dark Sharks days...
There's a pot load!! The best players are the best players.
Put those exact players in our side - We're a winning side all of a sudden.
Not even sure what point you're trying to make??

There's not many rep sides, And not many spots in each rep side....
Even in Origin, There's only 36 Players (Out of almost 500)

We had Woods, Teddy, Farah in our side and we weren’t a winning side. The coaching has more to do than just having great players.

WT had the likes of Sitaleki Akaola (excuse spelling?) and Cory Patterson playing on the wing more than occasionally in 2014, so we can be thankful that things aren't likely to be that bad this season.

Barring injury To’a is not likely to play either there or at fullback this season, though hopefully he is good enough to at least put on the pressure for a starting spot somewhere.

How’s this for a team list…..

 

[rustycage]

Gildart, Kei, Pauga, Hoffman, Tupou all centres with AJ & Talau injured. Trial & pick the best performers, it's really that simple.

Of course it is....
I could save the hassle and put my hand up to play centre as well... For free!!

3 of your options have already shown they're not NRL quality, With the other 2 unknown...
It may be simple to pick the "Best" But the Best may be no where near good enough, And what's back up if we get 1 or 2 more injuries?

I have to agree with this, even if we assume Gildart does well, our next most experienced is Roberts and god help us if he's our fulltime centre.

Hoping we find a gem in Tupou or Toá, quietly confident they may be able to do a job but NRL experience is definitely lacking in the 3/4

Mate,
If our back rowers were Luke Lewis and Gareth Ellis, I'd have no problem at all with Tupou, Toa, Even the Jet would go well.... But you just can't have half mast Back Rowers and Half Mast centres playing together....
Which is all we've had - for the better part of a decade, Which is mostly the problems with our halves and wingers... Halves are isolated because Back Rowers and Centres are no threat (In attack or defence) and wingers are posted because there's nothing in between them and mid field...
Put some brains / quality in these 2 positions both sides of the field and we improve 50%

I feel Garner has some upside in this area, But he's not a champion or a leader - more a follower.... Get a good centre on his side (Justin Olam, Joey Manu) and that's one side fixed... The other - God knows....


The other side will have Blore. I haven’t seen too much of him playing 80mins but he looks like he can defend pretty well for a young player.

Mate, I don't care how good he is - He's not going to teach himself (And a rookie centre) how to deal with minute to minute NRL attack and Defence against quality sides... He's just not!!

I've never seen anything like it... The WT's for the last however long just think you put all these talented young blokes in a side and they'll be a top 8 NRL Side... It doesn't work like that - NEVER HAS... EVER!!

Kids in key positions need to be surrounded with Quality and Experience - Young centres need to play beside a great Back Rower or a great Winger to teach them how to play the game, where to be, when to go or not go...
Our recent history has proven how all the best kids won't make the best team - won't even make a better than 50% team...

We should have thrown the earth at the Morris boys, They'd have given us some miles on both sides...

Also, The best kids aren't always the best learners.... They're not gonna listen to a bloke who's played 10 more games than them. They might listen to a representative player who's played 200 games more than them

Panthers went ok with some young boys

You seem to be overlooking the fact that from 6-13 are actual representative players...
(Bar Leota - Who would be a rep player if there were rep games the last 2 years)

Put Yeo at lock for us playing both sides as he does at Penrith and you have exactly what I've said.

They went ok because they have a great coaching structure that knows how to build game plans around their strengths & weaknesses whilst continue to develop players from potential into 1st graders.

We have never outside of Sheens and Cleary here had a coaching structure that could do anything close.

Winning = rep honors. Not many players ever get picked from non winning sides year in year out.

Except the good players??
Woods, Tedesco... Farah
Gallen and Bird from the Dark Sharks days...
There's a pot load!! The best players are the best players.
Put those exact players in our side - We're a winning side all of a sudden.
Not even sure what point you're trying to make??

There's not many rep sides, And not many spots in each rep side....
Even in Origin, There's only 36 Players (Out of almost 500)

We had Woods, Teddy, Farah in our side and we weren’t a winning side. The coaching has more to do than just having great players.

WT had the likes of Sitaleki Akaola (excuse spelling?) and Cory Patterson playing on the wing more than occasionally in 2014, so we can be thankful that things aren't likely to be that bad this season.

Barring injury To’a is not likely to play either there or at fullback this season, though hopefully he is good enough to at least put on the pressure for a starting spot somewhere.


How’s this for a team list…..

Beastly :joy:

 

[Cobarcats]

This guy look every part a dynamic footballer.
Just from this photo you can tell he is well balanced when running.
He looks very athletic too.
He's got a bit of toe, look at last last years try Knight v Panthers when he sprinted upfield then gave Edwards the cold shoulder with a beautiful fend and in doing so speed and balance wasn't effected.
Can't wait to see this bloke play.
The interesting thing is I read somewhere that he wasn't a good trainer.
Well he seems to be putting in at WT so that spells success IMO.

 

[Cobarcats]

This guy look every part a dynamic footballer.
Just from this photo you can tell he is well balanced when running.
He looks very athletic too.
He's got a bit of toe, look at last last years try Knight v Panthers when he sprinted upfield then gave Edwards the cold shoulder with a beautiful fend and in doing so speed and balance wasn't effected.
Can't wait to see this bloke play.
The interesting thing is I read somewhere that he wasn't a good trainer.
Well he seems to be putting in at WT so that spells success IMO.

 

[InBenjiWeTrust]

We had Woods, Teddy, Farah in our side and we weren’t a winning side. The coaching has more to do than just having great players.

We had Tedesco, Karoibete, Simona, Taupau, Woods, Marshall, Farah, Richards, Lui - and we could not attract more "origin" players

 

[Alex Seyfarth's #1 Fan]

I heard he likes to rush in off his wing.

 

[Chicken_Faced_Killa]

I heard he likes to rush in off his wing.

He’ll fit right in.

 

[Geo]

He'll play in the centres if he does play..

 

[Fade.To.Black]

I heard he likes to rush in off his wing.

Him and Noffa will collide mid-field.

 

[Fade.To.Black]

Mate, I don't care how good he is - He's not going to teach himself (And a rookie centre) how to deal with minute to minute NRL attack and Defence against quality sides... He's just not!!

I've never seen anything like it... The WT's for the last however long just think you put all these talented young blokes in a side and they'll be a top 8 NRL Side... It doesn't work like that - NEVER HAS... EVER!!

Kids in key positions need to be surrounded with Quality and Experience - Young centres need to play beside a great Back Rower or a great Winger to teach them how to play the game, where to be, when to go or not go...
Our recent history has proven how all the best kids won't make the best team - won't even make a better than 50% team...

We should have thrown the earth at the Morris boys, They'd have given us some miles on both sides...

Also, The best kids aren't always the best learners.... They're not gonna listen to a bloke who's played 10 more games than them. They might listen to a representative player who's played 200 games more than them

When should we have thrown the earth at the Morris boys? Wouldn't have got much value out of them if it was only just in the last 2 or so years.
Toa, Gildart and Tupou are our options, not the greatest but all that we have currently.

 

[earl]

Toa, Gildart and Tupou are our options, not the greatest but all that we have currently.

Let's see how they go. Personally I prefer giving guys like this a chance rather than punting on players at the end of their careers.

I reckon it's good squad management.

 

[batboy]

When should we have thrown the earth at the Morris boys? Wouldn't have got much value out of them if it was only just in the last 2 or so years.
Toa, Gildart and Tupou are our options, not the greatest but all that we have currently.

You think?
Would have got a centre that can teach our senior winger to defend...

And Morris was going better than both our wingers combined before Injury....

 

[tigerballs]

You think?
Would have got a centre that can teach our senior winger to defend...

And Morris was going better than both our wingers combined before Injury....

If we'd signed both Morris boys two years ago we would have been in the 8, no doubt. They would have taught our second rowers a thing or two about edge defence and the club could have retained one of them to coach the young fellas you've mentioned.
God I wish we signed the Morris boys...

 

[Geo]

If we'd signed both Morris boys two years ago we would have been in the 8, no doubt. They would have taught our second rowers a thing or two about edge defence and the club could have retained one of them to coach the young fellas you've mentioned.
God I wish we signed the Morris boys...

Is that what you call a Super Lament...

 

[tigerballs]

Is that what you call a Super Lament...

Super duper...

 

[Fade.To.Black]

If we'd signed both Morris boys two years ago we would have been in the 8, no doubt. They would have taught our second rowers a thing or two about edge defence and the club could have retained one of them to coach the young fellas you've mentioned.
God I wish we signed the Morris boys...

I don't know how a centre and a winger would teach 2nd rowers about defence IMO. You either have the attitude and intent to defend or you don't, Luciano could have Axe Gillmeister teaching him and I'd doubt it'd make much difference.