Referendum 2023

[crazycat]

My default position is always that whatever the Government wants, it is generally bad for the people. It is after all, a corporation, operating under the Uniform Commercial Code, and cares little or not at all for those they purport to work for - us.
Secondly, as it stands, the Riginals of this land are still sovereign. When Cook planted the flag and declared it 'for King and Country', (under terra nullius), he committed an illegal act, as the land was already inhabited. That is why, if one looks at the definition of 'Australia' it is described as the land mass of Norfolk Island, (No folk), and the Cocos Islands.
Should the Referendum go ahead (and there is some doubt following a challenge in the High Court re the 'constitutionality' of it, and should the 'yes' vote win, the 'Riginals will then be considered as having ceded their Sovereignty. And that folks, is exactly what Gov Corp wants - access to the land, unfettered by pesky sovereign owners.
So its a definite no from me.

That's a mixed bag comment. Honestly it sounds like you want the LIdia Thorpe solution to the problem.

You may have a case " Cook planted the flag and declared it 'for King and Country', (under terra nullius), he committed an illegal act, as the land was already inhabited."... The land was inhabited. Who are we to tell people what to do or how to live on land they inhabit?

All said this referendum has about absolutely zero with Soverign citizens loading guns and shooting up cops that want to do welfare checks on them. Some people really write some BS on the internet and when you hear someone BS'ing you, know that they are doing so to keep you down.

The people that are going to take your regional land are the Mining companies. They just need to say they have "found minerals" and will execute a mining license. If not on your property, on your incoming water. ...

 

[crazycat]

First off......congratulations to you for your balanced and informed response. its a pleasure to actually discuss on afactual basis.

The 'dangers' I foresee is that the proposal is completely open ended with regards to the power of the goverment of the day and as such poses the danger that the government of the day could neuter the Voice or conversely give it (IMO) too much power as the right to make legislation for indigenous people, the power to be involved on forming legislation etc. You and I dont know what future governments might do with it.

I would be more inclined to vote for it if the powers of the Voice were established. The body is going to be enshrined in the Constitution, then the powers of that body should be as well.



The constitution is not meant to be a "law" it is meant to be the core basis of values and principles that formthe basis of our nation and on which basis all laws are made (judicial and legislative). IMO if something isnt intrinsic, defined and timeless enough that it doesnt stand without constant change by the Govt, then it has no place in the Constitution and can and should be legislated by the Govt.


If parliamentary power is very important for the Voice, then it has no place in the Constitution and should be legislated instead.. That is not what the Constitution is for.

The reason why it needs to be in the constitution is pretty clear:
Government doesn't like what Aboriginal body is saying... Government throws out said body.

Happened under Howard, Morrison, Hawke, Frasier, it just keeps happening.
We need Aboriginals who truly represent their communities, People elected by them for them. Not Lidia Thorpe, Ken Wyatt, Aden Ridgeway not even Linda Burney... They are all appointed party people. They are semi beholden to their parties OR represent a faction of society. NOT whole aboriginal viewpoints.

We need someone to stand up and talk about TB running through Aboriginal communities. How many people do you know who have died of TB? Well your probably not Aboriginal!

 

[colinbh]

The reason why it needs to be in the constitution is pretty clear:
Government doesn't like what Aboriginal body is saying... Government throws out said body.

Happened under Howard, Morrison, Hawke, Frasier, it just keeps happening.
We need Aboriginals who truly represent their communities, People elected by them for them. Not Lidia Thorpe, Ken Wyatt, Aden Ridgeway not even Linda Burney... They are all appointed party people. They are semi beholden to their parties OR represent a faction of society. NOT whole aboriginal viewpoints.

We need someone to stand up and talk about TB running through Aboriginal communities. How many people do you know who have died of TB? Well your probably not Aboriginal!

I do and I'm not.

 

[Odessa]

40,000 in NSW alone. If you don't know the full details, and Albo can't or won't say, then vote no.

Albo said the other week he had not and didn't need to read the 26 pages that's so disrespectful to the people of Australia that the Prime Minister does not care enough to read the 26 pages or the constitution that he wants to change

The constitution protects you the people of Australia all Australians no race is above another

 

[Bula]

My take on it for what it is worth. Passionate yes of 40 percent. Passionate no of 30 percent. Other 30 percent don't give a shit either way but most would vote no if pushed just because they are pushed to vote. Result depends on how many of the middle group can be bothered to vote rather than cop $20 fine.

 

[Trevros]

I don't trust anything politicians say as we always cop it up the arse. I have lived in remote communities including Tennant Creek, Alice Springs and Leonora for a total of 15 years and all of the people there cop it up the arse regardless of their race. I even worked for an Aboriginal Health Corporation in Tennant Creek as IT Manager for 2 years and the waste of money I saw was unbelievable. Saying yes to this is like signing a blank cheque. A definite NO from me.

 

[Tucker]

My take on it for what it is worth. Passionate yes of 40 percent. Passionate no of 30 percent. Other 30 percent don't give a shit either way but most would vote no if pushed just because they are pushed to vote. Result depends on how many of the middle group can be bothered to vote rather than cop $20 fine.

Where are you getting these percentages from?
The polls tell a different story entirely.

 

[Tucker]

I don't trust anything politicians say as we always cop it up the arse. I have lived in remote communities including Tennant Creek, Alice Springs and Leonora for a total of 15 years and all of the people there cop it up the arse regardless of their race. I even worked for an Aboriginal Health Corporation in Tennant Creek as IT Manager for 2 years and the waste of money I saw was unbelievable. Saying yes to this is like signing a blank cheque. A definite NO from me.

Your experience and insight aligns with mine.
Can’t believe some on here are saying only Aboriginal communities live remote.

 

[Trevros]

Your experience and insight aligns with mine.
Can’t believe some on here are saying only Aboriginal communities live remote.

I like the remote lifestyle to go where you want when you want without terrorists (tourists) from the city being pains in the arse. Work was easy enough to get and blokes are blokes like in the old days. Health care and the like is pretty much non-existent and at best you might get say a government dentist who only specialises in extractions every 3 or so months. However, out there if you are Aboriginal you pay nothing where it is full price for the rest. I could write plenty but the yes city people would simply call me racist. BTW, I only moved back to regional NSW after the death of mum to look after the old fart who is 84 otherwise I'd still be remote.

 

[Enmore_Tiger]

Australia Day has turned into invasion day…

I think the issue there is the day was choosen because it was the beginning of the colonisation of the continent, and to many that was an invasion as it was done with guns, military and killing.

Many believe that is not the best day for everyone to celebrate. No other colonised country does that.

 

[Enmore_Tiger]

Can't speak for Spartan but I am called an invader every time I am "welcomed" to Country.

Every time Ernie Dingo's 1970's invention is sprouted before a sporting or other occasion I am implicitly called an invader and told that it isn't my Country.

It certainly must be frustrating and dissaponting to feel that way. I'm of convict heritage and the welcome to country doesn't make me feel that way. Certainly is interesting the different impact the same thing has on different people.

It is a bit tricky to understand though how a 'welcome' can make someone feel like an 'invader'.


Possibly the issue is that no legal process took place legitimising the occupation of the continent, the land wasn't legally ceded and no treaty was put in place (the only British colony where no Treaty was put in place). Certainly that's not your fault, but it might result in processes such as the Welcome to Country, leaving people feeling like it's not their country.

 

[Trevros]

I think the issue there is the day was choosen because it was the beginning of the colonisation of the continent, and to many that was an invasion as it was done with guns, military and killing.

Many believe that is not the best day for everyone to celebrate. No other colonised country does that.

The killing was on both sides and it wasn't anything like the American take over of a semi-united people. The first nations bs is total crap. Have any of you people seen the violence full-bloods have against a neighbouring tribe? BTW, my great-great grandfather who was 70 at the time was speared to death in Canberra when he was overseer of the property that now includes parliament house.

 

[Enmore_Tiger]

The killing was on both sides and it wasn't anything like the American take over of a semi-united people. The first nations bs is total crap. Have any of you people seen the violence full-bloods have against a neighbouring tribe? BTW, my great-great grandfather who was 70 at the time was speared to death in Canberra when he was overseer of the property that now includes parliament house.

I'm not sure the original inhabitants fighting back or defending land means it's not an invasion. Plenty of invasions have been resisted with reciprocating violence.

The fact there was voilent resistance shows they felt the land was theirs.

Tragic story about your great great Grand Father. His individual experience must have been terribly horrific. The Australian Wars series on SBS covers very well the white people who were speared on the frontier. Terrible stories.

 

[Trevros]

I'm not sure the original inhabitants fighting back or defending land means it's not an invasion. Plenty of invasions have been resisted with reciprocating violence.

The fact there was voilent resistance shows they felt the land was theirs.

Tragic story about your great great Grand Father. His individual experience must have been terribly horrific. The Australian Wars series on SBS covers very well the white people who were speared on the frontier. Terrible stories.

He was killed because they wanted the sheep to eat he was protecting since that was his job and even though he was 70 at the time there was no pension. I could go further into it but let's put it this way back in the day life was not easy for anyone and to get to 70 was well above the life expectancy.

 

[Trevros]

I've made one error Andrew Cowan 1786 - 1856 was my great-great-great grandfather.

 

[Tiger-ferret]

I think the issue there is the day was choosen because it was the beginning of the colonisation of the continent, and to many that was an invasion as it was done with guns, military and killing.

Many believe that is not the best day for everyone to celebrate. No other colonised country does that.

Don’t disagree.

Australia Day to me is about how lucky we are, despite prev atrocities.

I’m of the opinion after many years of contemplation and reflection (I used to love Australia Day around a pool with mates and hottest 100) to move it to like the first weekend in feb or whatever is least offensive to most people.

 

[Odessa]

First off......congratulations to you for your balanced and informed response. its a pleasure to actually discuss on afactual basis.

The 'dangers' I foresee is that the proposal is completely open ended with regards to the power of the goverment of the day and as such poses the danger that the government of the day could neuter the Voice or conversely give it (IMO) too much power as the right to make legislation for indigenous people, the power to be involved on forming legislation etc. You and I dont know what future governments might do with it.

I would be more inclined to vote for it if the powers of the Voice were established. The body is going to be enshrined in the Constitution, then the powers of that body should be as well.



The constitution is not meant to be a "law" it is meant to be the core basis of values and principles that formthe basis of our nation and on which basis all laws are made (judicial and legislative). IMO if something isnt intrinsic, defined and timeless enough that it doesnt stand without constant change by the Govt, then it has no place in the Constitution and can and should be legislated by the Govt.


If parliamentary power is very important for the Voice, then it has no place in the Constitution and should be legislated instead.. That is not what the Constitution is for.

Well said the voice should only be legislated do not touch the constitution

There is to much shady dealings by design to be not deliberate about not being allowed to ask questions and all the information should be on the table 6 months before the vote to have an open discussionits to important not to

 

[Enmore_Tiger]

He was killed because they wanted the sheep to eat he was protecting since that was his job and even though he was 70 at the time there was no pension. I could go further into it but let's put it this way back in the day life was not easy for anyone and to get to 70 was well above the life expectancy.

I really recommend the Australian Wars series on SBS On-demand. It covers very well settlers coming after the initial conflict, arrive in a war zone they were not aware of. They were sold a different story.

Much of their deaths have not been recognised in history because the colonial version doesn't want the conflict given attention. The Australian Wars series covers that. It's brutal, especially the 70,000 Aboriginal people hunted and killed by the Tribal Police in Queensland.

 

[Trevros]

I still vote NO no matter how racist it seems

 

[Winston Churchill]

When children and middle aged white guilt woke limp wrists are voting 'yes' you know the correct vote is 'no'