Referendum 2023

[earl]

This is enshrining racism and corruption in our constitution!

Mate - calm down. This emotional BS is just not helpful to anyone including yourself.

You are not discriminated against if Indigenous people are recognized in the constitution and they have a feedback system to provide information to parliament. You aren't.

I have no idea what you are talking about in relation to corruption. I don't even understand how you possibly come to this point.

I understand everyone is entitled to an opinion and can vote however they want but this type of over the top theatrics really doesn't have any place in this discussion.

 

[WesternSuburbsBoy]

Best mate from uni just been thrown out of his apartment after Landlord upped the rent on him & he couldn't afford to pay it anymore... I feel at ease knowing the government is focusing on the important issues though !!!

 

[earl]

"Boo-hoo, poor me, what about me" lol

This is the no 1 argument that is being made and it's coming up consistently. It's a terribly poor argument.

data with regards to life expectancy,
disease, poverty & incarceration rates
have been posted here countless times.

What you don't seem to grasp is that no
other ethnicity or race has had the horrific
history that they've endured in this country -
and that they are the original inhabitants.
Bridging the gap helps all Australians
and makes us more prosperous in the future

The facts just don't support the what about me argument.

 

[earl]

Best mate from uni just been thrown out of his apartment after Landlord upped the rent on him & he couldn't afford to pay it anymore... I feel at ease knowing the government is focusing on the important issues though !!!

I feel sorry for him but Indigenous affairs are also an important issue. Governments are focusing on more than just one issue.

In fact a housing policy was just passed.

You should make a new thread about housing policy. I'm really interested.

Your argument is exactly like stating that governments should stop worrying about health care or infrastructure or anything unless they worry about your friend having to move out because he couldn't afford the increased rent. It's not an argument against the voice at all.

 

[WesternSuburbsBoy]

Your argument is exactly like stating that governments should stop worrying about health care or infrastructure or anything unless they worry about your friend having to move out because he couldn't afford the increased rent. It's not an argument against the voice at all.

Not at all Earl. Just certain issues need to be prioritised as a matter of importance & I fail to see how the Voice is more important then said issues especially that said Issue is costing the Government $350 million & it's not even guaranteed to work.

 

[twentyforty]

Can you in all seriousness state Indigenous people are entitled ?

My dad was a specialist doctor and we lived a good life. I consider that entitled especially compared to an Indigenous person living in relative poverty.

Do you think that culturally, wealth and education are becoming linked with Aboriginality? Many of the successful middle class are not seen as being Aboriginal enough by their own people.
Despite this, Victoria and the ACT have experienced massive increases in those who identify as Aboriginal, as high as 37% during the last 6 years.

 

[crazycat]

Having advisory access to the executive committees and levels of Government? Pretty much the definition of privilege.

Which:
The Minerals Council of Australia has
The Australian Medical association *cough Doctors Union cough* has
Key members of defense.
Various other bodies.

The one that got me, was a man from Arnhem land talking about how "2000 gas stoves and 2000 gas fridges were delivered to the Aboriginal communities. People complained they were not used".

No gas in Arnhem land.

That's one of a stack of decisions that change Aboriginal people's lives, yea waste money too but the life impact is more important.

You have an Aboriginal representative there, they can make the point "hey no damn gas in Arnhem land."

 

[shiretiger]

I'm a simple man. I take people at their word. If they say that they will do something, I believe them.

Mr Albanese has said that he will implement The Uluru Statement in full if the referendum is agreed to by the Australian people.

So what does the Uluru Statements actually say?

From Ulurustatement.org

Uluru statement from​

the heart​

---

We, gathered at the 2017 National Constitutional Convention, coming from all points of the southern sky, make this statement from the heart:​

Our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander tribes were the first sovereign Nations of the Australian continent and its adjacent islands, and possessed it under our own laws and customs. This our ancestors did, according to the reckoning of our culture, from the Creation, according to the common law from ‘time immemorial’, and according to science more than 60,000 years ago.
This sovereignty is spiritual notion: the ancestral tie between the land, or ‘mother nature’, and the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples who were born therefrom, remain attached thereto, and must one day return thither to be united with our ancestors. This link is the basis of the ownership of the soil, or better, of sovereignty. It has never been ceded or extinguished, and co-exists with the sovereignty of the Crown.
How could it be otherwise? That peoples possessed a land for sixty millennia and this sacred link disappears from world history in merely the last two hundred years?
With substantive constitutional change and structural reform, we believe this ancient sovereignty can shine through as a fuller expression of Australia’s nationhood.
Proportionally, we are the most incarcerated people on the planet. We are not an innately criminal people. Our children are aliened from their families at unprecedented rates. This cannot be because we have no love for them. And our youth languish in detention in obscene numbers. They should be our hope for the future.
These dimensions of our crisis tell plainly the structural nature of our problem. This is the torment of our powerlessness.
We seek constitutional reforms to empower our people and take a rightful place in our own country. When we have power over our destiny our children will flourish. They will walk in two worlds and their culture will be a gift to their country.
We call for the establishment of a First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution.
Makarrata is the culmination of our agenda: the coming together after a struggle. It captures our aspirations for a fair and truthful relationship with the people of Australia and a better future for our children based on justice and self-determination.
We seek a Makarrata Commission to supervise a process of agreement-making between governments and First Nations and truth-telling about our history.
In 1967 we were counted, in 2017 we seek to be heard. We leave base camp and start our trek across this vast country. We invite you to walk with us in a movement of the Australian people for a better future.

I note that the bold and highlighted are not mine but the ulurustatement.org websites.

So, Sovereignty was never ceded or extinguished but somehow co-exists with the Crown. Ok. How does that work? Are they equal? Logically you would think that the original Sovereign is more important than the latter day co Sovereign. What are the implications of this if this analysis is true?

How can Parliament, as representative of the Crown, have more say than Makarrata, as representative of the Aboriginal people?

I just find the lack of imagination of some of the Yes proponents here as too what might happen if you take the Uluru Statement to its logical conclusion a little naive.

 

[Winston Churchill]

Can you in all seriousness state Indigenous people are entitled ?

My dad was a specialist doctor and we lived a good life. I consider that entitled especially compared to an Indigenous person living in relative poverty.

So you are saying Indigenous people cant become doctors? Oh boy

 

[hugh1954]

So you are saying Indigenous people cant become doctors? Oh boy

Of course they cant become doctors until Albo sprinkles his magic dust. nice to see you back Winston

 

[hank37w]

I honestly think this is a bit immature. Are you stating that I am less privileged compared to an Indigenous person living in relative poverty if the Voice gets voted in ?

I have wealthy family. They are much wealthier than my parents who like I said are rich. They holiday in the south of France. Their kids get bought houses close to the uni they intend. I have a sister in law who lives in New York in daddies apartment, holidays in the Hamptons and when she is Sydney hangs around her rich friends in the Eastern suburbs.

Are these people less privileged than an Indigenous person living in poverty if the Voice is voted in ?

It just sounds really immature and I hate to say it but stupid.



I don't think so. It's just an advisory body. You need a lot more detail to convince me of this.

Early on in this thread, I made a post that was along the lines of,

"Can't believe this thread has not turned into a complete shit fight and been shut down by now. Mostly respectful and reasonably well thought out contributions, let's hope it stays that way right across the forum."

Well Earl, I have never claimed to be the smartest guy in the room and have never to my knowledge gone out of my way to offend anyone on this forum and I apologize profusely If I have or if my sarcasm or attempts at humour at times have gone too far and have not been appreciated by some.

I still believe that this thread has generally been of a good nature even though it has divided this forum just as this referendum has divided the Community in general as it was always going to and maybe I'm just angry and upset that Albo has created this for his own purposes trying to make this Voice his legacy at any cost.

But enough of the nice stuff and I just have to ask, Earl, do you have a problem with comprehension?

You don't seem to understand what privilege means when used in the context that I put to you, in fact at one stage in another post you seemed to have it mixed up with "entitled" and then you go off about how rich and well off your family are.

It does not matter how rich, privileged, or entitled you may think you or your family or anyone else is, that is a totally different matter, the fact of the matter is that if the Voice gets up then it would give Indigenous citizens the ability to have an additional say on laws and administrative decisions that non indigenous citizens do no have.

Like I said, I'm not the smartest guy in the room and I can't put it any simpler than that but when I have used to term privileged it has been in the context of "a special advantage or benefit not enjoyed by all" and nothing to do with being richer or poorer.

Sorry for being immature and stupid.

Just one more thing and I'm probably done for a while, I find it pretty laughable that you criticize NO voters for wanting detail about the Voice, how it will work, how far reaching it will be etc. and then you go on to say that the Voice is just an advisory body but then go on to say that you need a lot more detail to convince you otherwise.

Don't know about anyone else but that sound a bit hypocritical to me.

 

[Magpie_Magic]

Best mate from uni just been thrown out of his apartment after Landlord upped the rent on him & he couldn't afford to pay it anymore... I feel at ease knowing the government is focusing on the important issues though !!!

Good point!

It's called prioritising. And the government hasn't done it. By elevating this Constitutional issue at the head of the queue at the expense of more immediate pressing concerns they are alienating sections of the community degrading the chances of the referendum being carried.

There was an understanding in the electorate pre election that Labor would look to keep immigration at a lower rate than pre Covid in order to allow the less well off's to catch up so to speak.

So what happens. In the month of July for example 130 000 students and migrants arrived.

In just one month.

Pre Covid there were major water shortages in Sydney. Obviously, we are not equipped to handle this volume of people in short order......unless somebody loses.

In the meantime Albanese tours the world taking orders from his overseas masters. He doesn't seem to prioritise the voice.

Good luck to your mate in finding a tenancy.

I can't imagine someone battling to find a rental thinking about the referendum too much.

It's how it works.

Can't ask for drowning people to worry about the welfare of others. Conversely probably why voters in well to do areas have drifted to the left laterly.......having made their money, alot of it easily with rocketing house prices they feel like a bit of philanthropy.

So the ALP is pitting battlers against each other.

I'm surprised it still has a chance,

 

[Red88_Tiger]

First of all, you have to get the parents to change their world view when it comes to money. Continually throwing cash at them has created a mindset of “easy come, easy go” and “there’s more where that comes from”. They don’t appreciate it like we do. Just say I was given a $10k cheque. I would sit down with my wife, pull out our budget and work out what to do with it. A lot of them would blow it very quickly on nothing. They might buy mag wheels for their Datsun, and spend the rest getting off chop. So first thing is first…get them jobs. Teach them skills. Give them a reason to start their day each morning, give them a reason to be proud…not just proud of being Aboriginal (which is such a stupid slogan) but actually proud of what they can contribute to their societies, enabling them to set goals and achieve them. This will have a positive, sustainable impact on communities as substance abuse as well as violence will decline.

When the kids see their parents are improving their lives, providing clean and comfortable housing for them and not getting wrecked and fighting with them, it will have positive outcomes. The kids are likely to stay home at night time, instead of wandering the streets, getting into trouble. They will have proper role models raising them, not shitbag peers who influence them to go the easy route of crime. Eventually they will understand that stealing gets you quick cash that doesn’t last, but working gives you consistent money without the risks. Correlating success with education will improve communities through school attendances. We must then ensure that proper teachers fill these classrooms, not apologist activists who constantly teach the kids they are victims.

Unfortunately for the adults I can’t see a way to get them into jobs but if there was a reason for the kids to be at school then at least a 10-15 years later you could start to see change
I also partially believe some don’t want to integrate into society and while ever we are handing out money they will just sit back and take it

 

[earl]

But enough of the nice stuff and I just have to ask, Earl, do you have a problem with comprehension?

Not at all. Maybe you have the problem and you can't understand what I'm stating but I'll keep trying.

You don't seem to understand what privilege means when used in the context that I put to you, in fact at one stage in another post you seemed to have it mixed up with "entitled" and then you go off about how rich and well off your family are.

Yes I do. I'll explain this to you calmly and rationally. You are stating that privilege is one single thing in this case The Voice however it's not.

People living in Africa in poverty may be privileged to be able to see Elephants and Tigers however their standard of living is less than the median person across the world.

You cannot just cherry pick a single tiny aspect of society and make that out to show that person is privileged. The world is complex.

It does not matter how rich, privileged, or entitled you may think you or your family or anyone else is, that is a totally different matter, the fact of the matter is that if the Voice gets up then it would give Indigenous citizens the ability to have an additional say on laws and administrative decisions that non indigenous citizens do no have.

Yes - this is to try and help them since they aren't privileged.

I don't get hand-outs from the government but plenty of people do. I don't get handouts since I have enough money not to require this. I've saved this money myself from working.

Lot's of people don't save money and go and get hand-outs. Does that mean they are more privilged than me ? Do we take away their privileges ?

Sorry for being immature and stupid.

It's immature to believe that a simple representation to parliament for Indigenous people makes them privileged.

Just one more thing and I'm probably done for a while, I find it pretty laughable that you criticize NO voters for wanting detail about the Voice, how it will work, how far reaching it will be etc.

I don't care about this but that is just me. It's a personal thing that I can argue against but you can have a different opinion.

and then you go on to say that the Voice is just an advisory body but then go on to say that you need a lot more detail to convince you otherwise.

Of course I do. The referendum that I am voting on says nothing at all like you are stating in the piece above.

When it comes to discussing this issue (and most issues) facts matter. Feelings and emotions don't

We live in a democracy and you can vote whichever way you want. I won't convince you otherwise and I don't really care. I'd prefer a yes vote but I've accepted a no vote.

 

[earl]

Do you think that culturally, wealth and education are becoming linked with Aboriginality?

No because I come from that background and none of my family are Aboriginal.

Many of the successful middle class are not seen as being Aboriginal enough by their own people.

I don't know about this but I don't like discussing feelings without some sort of data to back it up.

Despite this, Victoria and the ACT have experienced massive increases in those who identify as Aboriginal, as high as 37% during the last 6 years.

This was mentioned previously and I put Smoking gun on ignore because of it. It comes across to me as playing extremely loose with the facts.

I provided references to 2% or 3% of people stating they are Indigenous.

Let's ensure we utilize facts that can be verified.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

Which:
The Minerals Council of Australia has
The Australian Medical association *cough Doctors Union cough* has
Key members of defense.
Various other bodies.

Oh really? Can you point me to the Chapter of the Constitution that grants access for the Minerals Council and therefore High Court protection? AMA?

 

[earl]

Not at all Earl. Just certain issues need to be prioritised as a matter of importance & I fail to see how the Voice is more important then said issues especially that said Issue is costing the Government $350 million & it's not even guaranteed to work.

Mate - they have just passed housing legislation. This came prior to the voice so your argument is poor. They've done exactly what you are complaining they haven't done.

The $350 million is the cost of doing a referendum. The money surely can't be an issue because I'm using the $5bn figure that I obtained from the federal budget figures and this is less than 1% of the federal budget.

I'm facsinated via housing policy though. You should start a thread on that issue.

 

[earl]

Which:
The Minerals Council of Australia has
The Australian Medical association *cough Doctors Union cough* has
Key members of defense.
Various other bodies.

The one that got me, was a man from Arnhem land talking about how "2000 gas stoves and 2000 gas fridges were delivered to the Aboriginal communities. People complained they were not used".

No gas in Arnhem land.

That's one of a stack of decisions that change Aboriginal people's lives, yea waste money too but the life impact is more important.

You have an Aboriginal representative there, they can make the point "hey no damn gas in Arnhem land."

This is exactly what the Voice is trying to fix. It's designed to improve the spend.

Just to be clear it might not improve the spend. We won't know and we won't know until it gets in and we check back on it over time. I can't guarantee this will work. I'm not voting on that either.

 

[Kaito]

This is enshrining racism and corruption in our constitution!

One of your best Spartan, one of your best smh

You reply to Hanks post saying to use use the word int he context it was used in, by completely ignoring the context it was used in.
Hank never said that indigenous people are privileged, he said that the access to the executive is a privilege (by the injection in the Constitution) , and it is.

I know what he meant thank you very much.
As crazycat mentioned there are several other
entities that share the same privilege. The
Minerals Council of Australia, The Australian
Medical association, Doctors Union, members
of defense & various other bodies. I wasn't
taking him out if context I was adding to it.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

Early on in this thread, I made a post that was along the lines of,

"Can't believe this thread has not turned into a complete shit fight and been shut down by now. Mostly respectful and reasonably well thought out contributions, let's hope it stays that way right across the forum."

Well Earl, I have never claimed to be the smartest guy in the room and have never to my knowledge gone out of my way to offend anyone on this forum and I apologize profusely If I have or if my sarcasm or attempts at humour at times have gone too far and have not been appreciated by some.

I still believe that this thread has generally been of a good nature even though it has divided this forum just as this referendum has divided the Community in general as it was always going to and maybe I'm just angry and upset that Albo has created this for his own purposes trying to make this Voice his legacy at any cost.

I genuinely beleive that people on both side of the discussion have genuinely good intentions and hold their beliefs and opinions in good faith. the behaviour of people here arguing both sides pretty much corresponds to this.

Then along comes Earl. Its a shame because it has derailed a good thread.

But enough of the nice stuff and I just have to ask, Earl, do you have a problem with comprehension?

You don't seem to understand what privilege means when used in the context that I put to you, in fact at one stage in another post you seemed to have it mixed up with "entitled" and then you go off about how rich and well off your family are.

Its not comprehension, its intentional. For Earl this discussion, along with the old politics and Covid threads are some avenue to prove to himself that he is really smart so he will ram any opinion or thought through the prism of what ever article he read last ("zero sum game", "cookers"). Its completely intentional. When you correctly posted about the privilege associated with having a High Court protected direct line to the executive, Earl instinctively goes into a rant about aborigines not being privileged but his "daddy" is. After you clearly correct it and point out the context, he DOES comprehend, which is why he immediately changed his point to "entitlement".

Anyone discussing in good faith would have said they understood the context and argued or agreed on that basis. Not Earl, he trys to sneakily change to "entitled" and hope noone notices.