2023 Israel–Hamas war

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Kaito said:
You asked do I support the existence of Israel,
which I found a bit weird TBH, but yes I do, why
not. They have the right to exist as much as the
neighbouring Palestinians.
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Ok then this simplifies things.

Israel v Palestine is a conflict that has literally been brewing for thousands of years, the origin of the word Palestinian or Palestine was a term that outcast Jews called themselves to slur or provoke their Roman conquerors at the time. This conflict is not 75 years old and is not as simple as "settler colonialism". The conflict itself is complicated with a lot of complexity.

The current situation is not complex it is strikingly simple but people want to pretend it is complex to protect their prior biases, prejudices and ideologies. These are the simple facts about the current situation:
  1. The terrorist attack by Hamas was barbaric, inhumane, disgusting and unprovoked and Hamas knew it would provoke a massive response.
  2. Israel has the right to defend itself and its people
  3. Israel wants a free Palestine and supports a two state solution. It offered the PLO a two state solution in which Palestinians got 95% of the West Bank and 100% of Gaza, Arafat rejected the deal. In 2007 and 2010 Israel offered Hamas a two state solution and they rejected both.
  4. Hamas does not want a two state solution. They want the obliteration of Israel. Their Charter literally says that the only solution to the conflict is Jihad, obliteration of the Jews and that negotiations or peace deals are a waste of time and the work of the devil.
  5. Palestinians in Gaza live a life of misery and suffering and are living in an open air prison. This is the fault of Hamas. In 2005 Israel completely withdrew from Gaza and peace talks were held all over the Middle East including Israel/ Egypt with investment from many Arab nations. The Plan was for Gaza to be the "Hong Kong" of the Middle East. Israel did not pull out of Gaza with the intent of making it a remotely controlled prison camp. In 2006 Hamas won the election for the Palestinian Legislative Council and in 2007 Hamas took control of Gaza and immediately started rocket attacks on Israel. These rocket attacks have continued with brief interludes for the last 16 years resulting in some Israeli deaths and many Palestinian deaths in retaliation. As a direct result of Hamas aggression, Israel has turned Gaza into a prison camp to try to control Hamas access to weapons and military equipment and reduce their ability to build weapons and tunnels.
  6. One side of this conflict is the single only democracy in the entire Middle East. As much as Netanyahu is painted as a tyrant, he has been freely voted out and elected in on a number of occasions. Israel has 21% of its population Arab with 12 members of parliament currently Arabic, 10 of which are Muslim. Muslims and Arabs have unrestricted rights in Israel as do women (30% or Parliament) and LGBTQ. Thriving economy and technological industry.
  7. The other side in this conflict have not had an election for 18 years, has 0% jewish or non arab population, minimal rights for women, zero LGBTQ or other minority rights. Hamas have stated over and over again in words, deed and in their Charter that they do not want any peace with Israel and peace will only come after Israel has been obliterated and the creation of an Islamic State.
  8. Peace for Israelis and/or Palestinians is not possible whilst Hamas exists or has any power.

Kaito said:
I don't support
the
flagrant violations of human rights and
international laws though, nor do I support
terrorism and the death of innocents, especially
in the name of God. I've read all your posts on
this thread, that's why I called you one eyed and
hawkish — you only seem to denounce
Hamas —
despite the horrors that have unfolded
in Gaza
time & time again,
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The horrors that have unfolded in Gaza are real and have happened and are horrific. They have also always been in retaliation for Hamas attacks on Israel and are a result of Hamas' admitted tactics of enmeshing military installations in civilian infrastructure.

I am not pro-Israel. I want peace for Israelis and Palestinians, but I am a realist and not an idiot or naive. Anyone spouting "I just want peace and an end to hostilities, and we all just get along" doesnt understand the parameters of what the palestinian people are dealing with. You said you found it weird that I asked if you thought Israel had a right to exist...well this is why. Israel supports the right for a Palestinian state to exist, Hamas does not support the existence of Israel, never has, never will. So where does that leave things? It leaves the Palestinians living in a prison of their own making.

you said that I "only seem to denounce Hamas"? My oath. Hamas are scumbag terrorists that not only slaughtered Israelis in the most horrific inhumane ways possible, but have entombed their own people in a horrific prison with no escape, no hope other than death, all for the pursuit of their own stone age ideology. Where is the silver lining I am missing?
 
Winston Churchill said:
Im afraid you are correct. Israel will not stop. They will flatten Gaza and it appears they have the international community (US) backing them all the way. The only end to this is the total destruction of Hamas = Gaza. I cant see any way out of it.
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Hamas does not equal Gaza.

I agree that the only end is the total destruction of Hamas. There can be no peace for Israelis or Palestinians whilst Hamas has any control in Gaza. I do not think that it is Israels intention to eliminate Gaza. They are actively encouraging Palestinians to move south, leaving roads open leading south during specific times, reinstating water and power to southern Gaza and the US are sending $100M in humanitarian aid to southern Gaza.

Israel are currently eliminating the tunnel system in Gaza City.
 
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Mistymuzzle said:
Hamas does not equal Gaza.

I agree that the only end is the total destruction of Hamas. There can be no peace for Israelis or Palestinians whilst Hamas has any control in Gaza. I do not think that it is Israels intention to eliminate Gaza. They are actively encouraging Palestinians to move south, leaving roads open leading south during specific times, reinstating water and power to southern Gaza and the US are sending $100M in humanitarian aid to southern Gaza.

Israel are currently eliminating the tunnel system in Gaza City.
Click to expand...

Moving from Gaza is giving up the "holy land."
Palestinians beleive too much martyr blood has
spilt to do that. They will go down fighting hard
 
Mistymuzzle said:
you heard it here first....
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Are you a simpleton? Hamas is forcing Israel to make the kills… what kind of global political environment were you born into? Even applying the Geneva Convention ‘guidelines’ to a conflict such as this 💀
 
Mistymuzzle said:
Hamas does not equal Gaza.

I agree that the only end is the total destruction of Hamas. There can be no peace for Israelis or Palestinians whilst Hamas has any control in Gaza. I do not think that it is Israels intention to eliminate Gaza. They are actively encouraging Palestinians to move south, leaving roads open leading south during specific times, reinstating water and power to southern Gaza and the US are sending $100M in humanitarian aid to southern Gaza.

Israel are currently eliminating the tunnel system in Gaza City.
Click to expand...
Hamas is the ruling Political party in Gaza since 2006. Gaza and Hamas are indisputably entwined.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Legislative_Council
 
Kaito said:
Moving from Gaza is giving up the "holy land."
Palestinians beleive too much martyr blood has
spilt to do that. They will go down fighting hard
Click to expand...

Im not advocating for Palestinians to move from Gaza. Israel have given them Gaza already, but there will be no peace for Palestinians whilst Hamas exist or have power.
 
Tucker said:
They were celebrating, don’t listen to the media and cops.
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And chanting "Gas the Jews" in Sydney and at the "peaceful" Melbourne protest chanting "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free" which is calling for the obliteration of Israel.

I dont understand why this is treated with kid gloves and everyone plays it down. They are telling us out loud, loudly who they are and what they believe in but the western world insists on smothering.
 
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