America - Gun Control

[Abraham]

He doesn't.

And there are many legitimate uses of semi-automatic rifles in hunting situations.

To bad that wasn't what he said. There is a big difference between legitimate use and need.

You don't NEED a gun to hunt, period. But that's just being stupid.

I'm getting the distinct feeling that you don't like me for some reason MG. What's hurt your feelings?

 

[Guest]

As an Australian living in the US, the strangest thing I see with gun control is this ingrained fear that unless the population is armed, the government will run riot and oppress everyone.

They genuinely seem to fear their government. I explain in Australia, a government gets too big for its boots or pisses Australians off, we get a new government.

I will say though, Americans do have a real passion for hunting. And boy there is a lot to hunt here. On the other hand hunters dont seem to be generally the people behind this crazyness that erupts on a regular basis.

So go figure.

Hunters don't need semi automatic rifles

How do you know??

Well, the prey does not have a gun to shoot back for a start, so no need to be able to fire more rapidly.

I occasionally go hunting, a semi-auto is simply overkill.

 

[innsaneink]

Probably helps if youre a terrible shot…but yeh, unnecessary

 

[tsjonathan]

Are you being sarcastic are you seriously asking me? You seriously need me to explain it to you? I really don't need to do that, unless English isn't your first language?

Calm down. It's a genuine question. Maybe clarify that before you start with the insults.

i wasn't trying to insult you mate. Sorry if i came across as that.

No worries. I'm vaguley familiar with the plan - I just didn't know what point you had in mind. I'm assuming the false flag part of it was what you had in mind? As far as I'm aware it never happened?

That's right. I'm no tin foiler. But my uncle was with the LAPD for over 20 years and entered the CIA. His father was with the police force and my grand father was with the police too and the cia was built from its foundations by mobsters and gangsters. My uncle chose not to join the CIA after he was cleared cause his dad told him he would be the dumbest ever CIA officer and would get himself killed. Point is there's a lot of crap going on.

 

[tsjonathan]

Nothing wrong with asking questions. Especially when **_everyone has access to smart phones and a wealth of information at their disposal._** In a time when mainstream media is dying and citizen journalism is on the rise it's a good thing people ask questions.

… and even more mis-information.

without digressing too much from the topic i would disagree. I think we live in an age where we are smarter and healthier than we have ever been in human history. Information which isn't accurate generally speaking is far less likely to be ranked by search engines such as Yahoo; Baidu; Google et al , which in turn limits traffic and increases bounce rate. Wikipedia as an example corrects any editing done on its websites within a few hours.

I can totally understand apprehension and caution with questioning media when in the 1950s you had operation mocking bird which still affects modern media.

Thats a big call - definitely healthier but the jury is out on smarter - we no longer think for ourselves or make judgements based on what we believe is right and what we feel is right - these search engines and social media have massive influence on what people believe - media and govts control what information is released and unfortunately a lot of people fail to question the idiocy of what they are being told.

That's a big call? Its a non issue lol. there's no two ways about it. Facts and information are openly available to all now.

Dude, you can search anything online in 2017, there's a reason why professions like journalism; tourist agencies and these archaic proffesions are dying. Information is free flowing. Yes, in SOME instances government control mainstream media i agree and ironically at the same time mainstream media is dying because people can find contradictory information which supports truth and integrity. You realise citizen journalism is rising right? You go on youtube to BBC; CNN; Fox news and these 'news' organisations have to disable their comment section. Why do you think Reddit; 4chan are so popular? That elitist Jay Rockefeller once said internet "is the number one national hazard". It's a hazard because people can't be easily manipulated with lies anymore. A lot of people do fail and follow media lies, but the the majority of people have the capacity now to see truth. There's no two ways about it. Sorry.

 

[MG1962]

You don't NEED a gun to hunt, period. But that's just being stupid.

I'm getting the distinct feeling that you don't like me for some reason MG. What's hurt your feelings?

I have no personal opinion of you either way. I dont debate people I debate issues.

Gun proponents are all about what wont work without ever offering solutions.

Gun proponents agree mental stability can be a major factor in many of these mass shootings, yet fought any legislation to stop access by mental disturbed people to guns

Gun proponents agree that criminal access to guns is an issue but successfully fought against electronic chip identification for weapons.

Gun proponents agree that criminal access to guns is an issue but successfully fought against banning guns made from materials that resist leaving finger prints.

 

[voice_of_reason]

You realise citizen journalism is rising right?
… people can't be easily manipulated with lies anymore.
...but the the majority of people have the capacity now to see truth. There's no two ways about it. Sorry.

Sorry, but I nearly choked on my Corn Flakes. By far the greatest amount of mis-information on the planet comes from the Internet. What you're suggesting as 'truth' can be any fanciful story, made up by anyone, for any purpose. When we consider everything we read on the Internet as true, we'll know we're in real trouble.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

You realise citizen journalism is rising right?
… people can't be easily manipulated with lies anymore.
...but the the majority of people have the capacity now to see truth. There's no two ways about it. Sorry.

Sorry, but I nearly choked on my Corn Flakes. By far the greatest amount of mis-information on the planet comes from the Internet. What you're suggesting as 'truth' can be any fanciful story, made up by anyone, for any purpose. When we consider everything we read on the Internet as true, we'll know we're in real trouble.

Yeah I have to agree with VOR. Any idiot can write something unsubstantiated and put it on the idiot for the masses to swallow up. If everyone is capable of critical thinking then I'd agree, but not everyone is.

The amount of people who comment on the Betoota Advocate stories on Facebook believing they are real is astounding.

 

[tsjonathan]

You realise citizen journalism is rising right?
… people can't be easily manipulated with lies anymore.
...but the the majority of people have the capacity now to see truth. There's no two ways about it. Sorry.

Sorry, but I nearly choked on my Corn Flakes. By far the greatest amount of mis-information on the planet comes from the Internet. What you're suggesting as 'truth' can be any fanciful story, made up by anyone, for any purpose. When we consider everything we read on the Internet as true, we'll know we're in real trouble.

Yeah I have to agree with VOR. Any idiot can write something unsubstantiated and put it on the idiot for the masses to swallow up. If everyone is capable of critical thinking then I'd agree, but not everyone is.

The amount of people who comment on the Betoota Advocate stories on Facebook believing they are real is astounding.

VOR, took a snippet of my comment and concluded that i said there was truth on the internet. Reread what i wrote. I was saying there is a lot of crap online but there is also a lot of truth and people have the capacity to weigh up for themselves what the truth is. If you post nonsense online without evidence etc then people stop clicking on your site. No clciks = high bounce rate which equals less traffic which equals lower ranking. For as many 'fanciful' stories as you say there are just as many stories telling the contradicting story.

Information is at your finger tips. You can search how to play the guitar; how to cook curry; how to fix the lawn mower; anything. If someone puts up the wrong information about how to make curry do you think he will still get hits? Will it rank ?

Why do you think BBC; CNBC; FOX news et al are dying? as i said above comment? Journalism is dying because people can source information for themselves now. People are turning away from traditional media now because their information is so bias, Fairfax lost thousands of jobs in the past few years dude. This point isn't even an debate.

 

[tsjonathan]

You realise citizen journalism is rising right?
… people can't be easily manipulated with lies anymore.
...but the the majority of people have the capacity now to see truth. There's no two ways about it. Sorry.

Sorry, but I nearly choked on my Corn Flakes. By far the greatest amount of mis-information on the planet comes from the Internet. What you're suggesting as 'truth' can be any fanciful story, made up by anyone, for any purpose. When we consider everything we read on the Internet as true, we'll know we're in real trouble.

i'm also assuming you know search engines like Google; Baidu; Yahoo et al within the last few years have changed the way in which they rank websites and content right? You heard of Google Panda? No longer can people stack their websites with key words and back links like the early 2000's and back end them with crappy content and pass it for higher ranking.

More recently, search engines are able to not only rank websites for quality content but also able to discern through : - core ranking algorithms; length of content; ad placement; page layout; quality of content etc, video quality. Point is you can't get away with a lot of crap anymore because SEO in the modern day is so much more specialised.

Crap content= no ranking its pretty simple,

only yesterday Baidu president said AI to be one of the most transformative issues of our time

how are the corn flakes?

 

[Abraham]

You don't NEED a gun to hunt, period. But that's just being stupid.

I'm getting the distinct feeling that you don't like me for some reason MG. What's hurt your feelings?

I have no personal opinion of you either way. I dont debate people I debate issues.

Gun proponents are all about what wont work without ever offering solutions.

Gun proponents agree mental stability can be a major factor in many of these mass shootings, yet fought any legislation to stop access by mental disturbed people to guns

Gun proponents agree that criminal access to guns is an issue but successfully fought against electronic chip identification for weapons.

Gun proponents agree that criminal access to guns is an issue but successfully fought against banning guns made from materials that resist leaving finger prints.

So if its not personal, then why all the sniping? Do you just hate people who like guns?

I am a gun proponent, and i don't think i am guilty of any of the above. So not sure why a post full of generalisations was directed at me.

To the contrary, most gun control activists like to propose restrictions that neither solve problems nor respect the rights of gun owners. The opinions generated on this thread could be cited as a good example of that.

Ultimately the purpose of gun control should be to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill, while not infringing on the freedoms of law abiding citizens. That's not an easy balance to strike.

 

[Abraham]

I occasionally go hunting, a semi-auto is simply overkill.

Sometimes its overkill, and sometimes its the right tool for the job.

If your trophy hunting, or popping off rabbits for fun, its definitely not necessary.

However if your trying to eradicate pests at a rapid rate, its a better option than a bolt action for simple efficiency. You can jump on Youtube and see guys driving through their fields in Texas killing dozens of hogs in the space of 5 or 10 minutes at close range. That's just not possible with a bolt action. And if your livelihood depends on getting these pigs off your farm, then you will reach for the semi every time.

I'm a pretty avid hunter, and i have never felt the need to have a semi auto for any hunting i have personally done. But different tools for different jobs.

 

[MG1962]

I am a gun proponent, and i don't think i am guilty of any of the above. So not sure why a post full of generalisations was directed at me.

What generalization are you talking about? All four of the examples I gave were stopped at the legislative stage by the pro gun lobby over the last 10 years.

 

[Abraham]

I am a gun proponent, and i don't think i am guilty of any of the above. So not sure why a post full of generalisations was directed at me.

What generalization are you talking about? All four of the examples I gave were stopped at the legislative stage by the pro gun lobby over the last 10 years.

These generalisations:

Gun proponents are all about what wont work without ever offering solutions.

Gun proponents agree mental stability can be a major factor in many of these mass shootings, yet fought any legislation to stop access by mental disturbed people to guns

Gun proponents agree that criminal access to guns is an issue but successfully fought against electronic chip identification for weapons.

Gun proponents agree that criminal access to guns is an issue but successfully fought against banning guns made from materials that resist leaving finger prints.

 

[MG1962]

These generalisations:

\

Gun proponents are all about what wont work without ever offering solutions.

Gun proponents agree mental stability can be a major factor in many of these mass shootings, yet fought any legislation to stop access by mental disturbed people to guns

Gun proponents agree that criminal access to guns is an issue but successfully fought against electronic chip identification for weapons.

Gun proponents agree that criminal access to guns is an issue but successfully fought against banning guns made from materials that resist leaving finger prints.

Those are not generalizations. They are historical facts

For example:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/20/dem-bill-would-require-all-new-guns-be-personalized.html

The National Rifle Association's Institute for Legislative Action says it is not opposed to the development of so-called "smart guns," but rejects government mandates that require the use of grips with fingerprint-reading technology, according to a post on its website.

"[The] NRA recognizes that the "smart guns" issue clearly has the potential to mesh with the anti-gunner's agenda, opening the door to a ban on all guns that do not possess the government-required technology," the group said.

Or this

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2016/12/19/2016-30407/implementation-of-the-nics-improvement-amendments-act-of-2007

Repealed by Congress

https://apnews.com/553ff88b430a4334868105f7a943b912

 

[voice_of_reason]

how are the corn flakes?

I lied, I don't eat corn flakes - but see how easy it is to mislead people? :wink:

 

[voice_of_reason]

VOR, took a snippet of my comment and concluded that i said there was truth on the internet. Reread what i wrote.

I took snippets to be concise - it's good manners. For the sake of clarity, here's what you said in full:

"That's a big call? Its a non issue lol. there's no two ways about it. **Facts and information are openly available to all now.**

Dude, you can search anything online in 2017, there's a reason why professions like journalism; tourist agencies and these archaic proffesions are dying. Information is free flowing. Yes, in SOME instances government control mainstream media i agree and ironically at the same time mainstream media is dying **because people can find contradictory information which supports truth and integrity**. You realise citizen journalism is rising right? You go on youtube to BBC; CNN; Fox news and these 'news' organisations have to disable their comment section. **Why do you think Reddit; 4chan are so popular?** That elitist Jay Rockefeller once said internet "is the number one national hazard". **It's a hazard because people can't be easily manipulated with lies anymore. A lot of people do fail and follow media lies, but the the majority of people have the capacity now to see truth.** There's no two ways about it. Sorry."

I've highlighted the areas where you suggest there is truth on the Internet. I'm not sure why but you now seem to want to back down from the claim. The 'truth' is there is a lot of good information and a lot of total tripe on the web. A fair bit of both is provided by both media companies and nobody 'citizen journalists' in their bedrooms. Smart people will take what they read with a grain of salt and do due diligence to ensure the accuracy of information which is important to them. Journalists have a code of ethics they are required to follow - no such thing exists for citizen J. One side is backed by multi billion dollar companies who rely on reasonable accuracy to maintain their business model where most citizen journalists are doing nothing more then trying to satisfy their desire for 15 minutes of fame.
I'm the first person to criticise the media (there have been some shocking abuses over the years) but if it's comparing CBS and a spotty teenager tweeting about conspiracy theories I think a degree of caution is warranted if believing citizen journalism is the holy grail of truth and justice.

 

[tsjonathan]

VOR, took a snippet of my comment and concluded that i said there was truth on the internet. Reread what i wrote.

I took snippets to be concise - it's good manners. For the sake of clarity, here's what you said in full:

"That's a big call? Its a non issue lol. there's no two ways about it. **Facts and information are openly available to all now.**

Dude, you can search anything online in 2017, there's a reason why professions like journalism; tourist agencies and these archaic proffesions are dying. Information is free flowing. Yes, in SOME instances government control mainstream media i agree and ironically at the same time mainstream media is dying **because people can find contradictory information which supports truth and integrity**. You realise citizen journalism is rising right? You go on youtube to BBC; CNN; Fox news and these 'news' organisations have to disable their comment section. **Why do you think Reddit; 4chan are so popular?** That elitist Jay Rockefeller once said internet "is the number one national hazard". **It's a hazard because people can't be easily manipulated with lies anymore. A lot of people do fail and follow media lies, but the the majority of people have the capacity now to see truth.** There's no two ways about it. Sorry."

I've highlighted the areas where you suggest there is truth on the Internet. I'm not sure why but you now seem to want to back down from the claim. The 'truth' is there is a lot of good information and a lot of total tripe on the web. A fair bit of both is provided by both media companies and nobody 'citizen journalists' in their bedrooms. Smart people will take what they read with a grain of salt and do due diligence to ensure the accuracy of information which is important to them. Journalists have a code of ethics they are required to follow - no such thing exists for citizen J. One side is backed by multi billion dollar companies who rely on reasonable accuracy to maintain their business model where most citizen journalists are doing nothing more then trying to satisfy their desire for 15 minutes of fame.
I'm the first person to criticise the media (there have been some shocking abuses over the years) but if it's comparing CBS and a spotty teenager tweeting about conspiracy theories I think a degree of caution is warranted if believing citizen journalism is the holy grail of truth and justice.

Common man, you took one piece of what i said and blew it out of the water with your corn flakes comment bro.Who is going to say "The internet only has truthful information and nothing else"? Common bro. Like you said there is inherently a lot of truth online and information is so much easier to be passed from people to people which makes discovering truth a lot easier than it ever was
\
\
I don't get what you disagree with me about the comments you bolder above. Like its not only my thoughts it's what's happening in the world now. Like its not even controversial. I mean, you know what Google is right? You know what yahoo, reddit, 4chan etc are right? And you know why they're worth so much as well right?

Like, i'm not making this stuff up, call Fairfax media on Monday and ask them how many writers they've laid off in the past 24 months.

I also like how you neglected to mention anything I mentioned about SEO; rankings; Google Panda etc and its improvement to content quality in the internet world yet went on a tangent about how because a company earns billions will intrinsically have more integrity than someone who is independent.And how just because someone is independent he'll be some kid in his parent's basement trying to get 15 minutes of fame LOL . This information isn't even from me. It is what is happening in the world right now whether you like it or not. Google; Yahoo; Baidu etc are extremely rigid in their organising of the information in the world now.

/facepalm

 

[Tim Sheens]

I occasionally go hunting, a semi-auto is simply overkill.

Sometimes its overkill, and sometimes its the right tool for the job.

If your trophy hunting, or popping off rabbits for fun, its definitely not necessary.

However if your trying to eradicate pests at a rapid rate, its a better option than a bolt action for simple efficiency. You can jump on Youtube and see guys driving through their fields in Texas killing dozens of hogs in the space of 5 or 10 minutes at close range. That's just not possible with a bolt action. And if your livelihood depends on getting these pigs off your farm, then you will reach for the semi every time.

I'm a pretty avid hunter, and i have never felt the need to have a semi auto for any hunting i have personally done. But different tools for different jobs.

Hunting and eradicating feral animals are very different and many would not object to large land owners or professional shooters being armed with a semi auto. Open slather ownership is another issue.

 

[voice_of_reason]

Common man, you took one piece of what i said and blew it out of the water with your corn flakes comment bro.Who is going to say "The internet only has truthful information and nothing else"? Common bro. Like you said there is inherently a lot of truth online and information is so much easier to be passed from people to people which makes discovering truth a lot easier than it ever was

First off, I'm not your 'bro' - I'm probably old enough to be your grandfather. I get that being disrespectful is an attempt to obfuscate the debate but I prefer civility.
My previous post was because you didn't want me to clip anything - I simply posted your full comment and now you seem unhappy I pointed out your contradictions in full context.
At least we agree that the internet is not just truthful information - which then defeats your premise that it's 'easier than it ever was' to find the truth. On the contrary, it actually makes it more difficult. We have people on this thread convinced there's a conspiracy and multiple shooters and there's zero evidence of either other than tin-hats speculating.

And finally, don't believe you can educate me on Fairfax and the media - you'll just have to trust me that I know far, far more about both than you'll ever know.