I don't think IP is in Api's class but also don't think you can place unrealistic expectations on any player who is playing in losing squads. I know what IPap and Api are both capable of in good teams - have no doubt they can produce. There other players in our team who have never played in winning squads and only know losing and have become accustom to it. The very reason why I understand why Brooks would want to challenge himself elsewhere - it was now or never.
Are we a well coached side?
- Thread starter WesternSuburbsBoy
- Start date
InBenjiWeTrust
Well-known member
Au contraire, Seyfarth, Twal, Pole, and Blore improved a lot, and Bole is our long waited FB.
hank37w
Well-known member
Well keep going, you were just getting warm.
hank37w
Well-known member
What do you mean, "meaningless end of season game," if we beat Manly at Brookvale on Friday night by 60 or 70 points and St.George get beaten by the Noughts on Saturday night we will avoid the spoon. 🤣
If that massive fluke did happen all it would do would slightly blur just how poor we have been this year both on and off the field.We deserve to have the spotlight on us as the spoon 2 years in a row is diabolical and just highlights the standards that our administration have inflicted on our club and seem to accept
hank37w
Well-known member
Strap yourself in for the ride, 3 in a row is a distinct possibility.
If it becomes that it is an even bigger indictment of our club and the way it is administered,wall to wall cretins at the top level
balmain boy
Well-known member
We are a terribly coached side. We play as a bunch of individuals, we have no clear plan that our players can implement in either attack or defence. The skill level and IQ of our players is appalling.
Sometimes the individual efforts are enough for us to hang tight in a close game but not enough for us to win. Lesser teams are winning more because they have tactics developed to the squad they have not the players they wish they had.
Sometimes the individual efforts are enough for us to hang tight in a close game but not enough for us to win. Lesser teams are winning more because they have tactics developed to the squad they have not the players they wish they had.
jrtiger
Well-known member
you can see what we're trying to do, but in execution it rarely ever comes off. this issue is attributed to two things: a lack of quality in the side (namely the halves) and a coach who is unwilling to plan for the cattle he has. as a result, we have rare moments where we put it together, and then other times where it completely goes to hell.
next year Benji will have three halves to choose from, all of them he has recruited himself externally. hopefully some high IQ footballers in key positions and another year learning the structures with the existing players should get us to where we want to be.
next year Benji will have three halves to choose from, all of them he has recruited himself externally. hopefully some high IQ footballers in key positions and another year learning the structures with the existing players should get us to where we want to be.
Siberian Kitten
Well-known member
Fair point. Those guys have come on this year. I guess it didn't feel like like it after winning 4 and losing 19, including one of the biggest thrashings rugby league history. I don't give credit for Bula because he was already good from day one.
Todd Packer
Well-known member
It could be worse, we could've signed Ciraldo.
The Bulldogs are imploding.
The players are revolting against the wonder coach.
The Bulldogs are imploding.
The players are revolting against the wonder coach.
rihannafan1
Well-known member
Who is a well-coached side though? We are awful but I also think this is a bloody hard league to coach. Pretty much none stay for long, 5 years absolute tops.
There is Bennett, Bellamy, Cleary, Robinson and Stuart and that's it. The other 12 teams pretty much just rotate coaches, and Robinson might not have long himself too.
There is Bennett, Bellamy, Cleary, Robinson and Stuart and that's it. The other 12 teams pretty much just rotate coaches, and Robinson might not have long himself too.
Tiger_claws
Well-known member
Its really hard to judge if we are poorly coached or not. When you have to use a part time, fringe halfback as your main man for a number of weeks or the reserve grade fullback becoming your number 1 halfback wouldn’t be many coaches that would succeed. We do the simple things very poorly. Even our kick offs are rubbish. We never ever have any shape to our attack and that reflects poor coaching. The defence never adjusts when someone (Bateman regularly) is constantly caught at marker and nobody slots into his spot to cover. Thats seems sheer lazy. One thing is for sure though, we need all players to have full off season with the squad. I think Morris will lift the standards at training. Benji can become a really good man manager. I have faith moving forward but as you all know it’s extremely hard maintaining that faith.
We get pushed back, knocked off balance and driven backwards as we play the ball, then we get up timidly to play the ball from that position - most teams signal to the ref and walk forward to play the ball where the tackle was made … this is one of the basics that we should be coached into us. We are giving away too much territory over the length of the game with our meek & mild approach. It puts us on the back foot.
I’m loving it
Tucker
Well-known member
Yes it’s great to see.
It is a dire warning though of what lies ahead for us in 2024.
Tucker
Well-known member
Please provide more context.
To me it looks like we go out onto the field with the mindset of trying not to lose. That’s it.
As for the halves…I can see Wakeham being required again. I wouldn’t cut him loose this year..
jrtiger
Well-known member
think back to the early rounds when we lost seven in a row. a lot of these losses we had field position and the bulk of the possession, but zero idea on how to execute the shapes created by our coaches.
the spine (namely the halves) are supposed to identify a cue that they would've seen through the week, call a play and execute it. given Brooks' inability to do this for the better part of a decade, Doueihi's terrible start to the year and Wakeham's incompetence, it does fall on our halves, but also the coaching staff for not making changes when these issues reared their heads early on.
when it has clicked (Cowboys @ Leichhardt, last 20 against Parra, Canberra & Dogs), we put on points in an exceptionally quick amount of time, but due to our lack of quality in the halves, its few and far between. that's why I think it's too early to make a call on whether or not we're well coached, because in my eyes Sezer has a far higher footy IQ than Brooks, and Latu and Sullivan are both very good players in their own right. they may well be able to get us to where we need to be and have us finally capitalising on our good field position.
as for Wakeham, I can't really see a spot for him. I'd argue that Latu is his direct replacement in the squad, while the upgrade of Galvin and Doueihi in the casualty ward will force him out. a T&T deal might work out ok, but again I can't see him here next year.
innsaneink
Well-known member
Lots more to it than just wearing headphones on game day which is all we're seeing so far
Hope he goes well but as usual this club gives me no confidence
Jolls
Well-known member
This is a good question and I think that any results based analysis would have you saying no. However, is it the coaching or is it the abiity of the roster to execute what they are being trained to do.
If we take an analytical approach as opposed to an emotional approach to the assessment we may well be surprised. First let's look at two that are considered to be top class coaches - Bennett and Bellamy. There are common denominators: they inspire players to reach their potential and the teams that they coach are cohesive. Having said that having quality players is a significant benefit - see how the Phins fell off the edge after a great start due to their lack of depth.
So how about we assess our team against attributes that well coached sides have instead of shooting from the hip. In my opinion a well coached side has five attributes:
1. The players believe in themselves. If we are to believe what the players say - they have the belief and think that they aren't too far from breaking the big drought. I expect that Sheens and Benji give them belief that they can succeed and I suspect that the "we might have lost the game, but we didn't get beat" is part of that process. Remember, it is what the playing group believe, not what we perceive.
They, the coaches and selectors, blew this season with their belief in "he who can't be named" and AD being the key to success. Despite this poor assessment I expect that they had the players believing in the direction and the plan.
If the Benji hype is true and the players are really motivated by him and the direction the place is heading I think we can give them a pass on this aspect of being well coached.
2. Expert Analysis. Jack Gibson once said that “The use of video evidence is not always conclusive, but it sure beats the memory bank of most witnesses.” WT have a dedicated team of analysts and Sheens is a tactician. He is quite a technical coach and he was definitely a master of the game in his heyday. There is clear evidence that he had the ability to pick apart a game and break it down into the key elements. I don't think that skill is lost and when surrounded by a team of analyists and other recent football brains I think you would be hard pressed to say that we aren't at least on par for this aspect of the coaching spectrum as well.
Where this beaks down is the application of the data - critiquing performance can improve the skills of the player, including their decision-making process. However, the player has to be capable and have the skills to impliment the lessons. I simply don't think we had the right players, in key positions, to do that. Our halves and some outside backs simply don't appear to have the mental capacity for growth beyond their inate skill set. I expect that this was our biggest problem and is why Fulton is such an important cog in the new machine.
3. A good coach recognises the differences between players. I think this is where the Gibsons, Bennetts and Bellamys of this world excel. I watched Matty Johns' inteview of Craig Bellamy a while back and his growth as a coach was greatly influenced by two mentors. Bennett, who he described as knowing each player at a personel level and Sheens who knew their technical skills inside out.
I expect that our coaching staff, especially Benji with his experience under Bennett, understands that the team members are different in terms of attitude, personality, response, sensitivity and how they handle criticism and adversity.
I am positive that this was our undoing in 2023 - our coaching staff had unrealistec expectations of their ability to exploit this and grow key elements of our squad. Our failure this season is based on an unrealistic expectation of player growth (Yes we are taklng about our halves, some centres and wingers). Having said that, there have been improvements across the park in many players that have not translated into results. We are definitely a better side than 2022. You can see the dead wood being trimmed back with more to come. I expect that we will be better for it in 2024.
We failed based on their (the coaches and selectors) blind faith in their annointed halves combination. A bad decision yes, but overall the skill set exists in our coaching staff. So over par but I think the mistake has well and truly been recognised.
4. A well coached team is not distracted by a poor game. We know that Sheens is stubborn and will stick with a plan longer than most fans would like. As much as we fans don't like seeing players outclassed week in week out I imagine that the coaching staff are attuned to it even moreso. Their careers hang on player performances so let's not get caught up in the arm chair hype. The coaching staff have the expert analysis to know what players are performing at what level and they see them at training day in day out.
Our team simply does not have the smarts or abiity to compete at the level required. Is Bennett a shit coach because the Phins lack depth?
I think Sheens and Co. have stuck to their guns from a coaching perspective and get a pass on this. We simply lack the depth to push for change - I expect we will see some players moved on to try and address this.
5. Finally, a well coached side has fun. Good coaches are creative and integrate fun into their coaching techniques. When players are having fun, they are more relaxed and loose and this is seen as a key to high performance. Just look at Melbourne - I doubt Munster would be there if he wasn't having a great time. He would have walked for the $ otherwise - he is that sort of person.
Our lads have turned up week in week out despite the poor results. One or two games we were "beaten" but for the most part they tried for each other. This to me shows that this aspect is also OK. We simply lack the skills.
Overall Assessment. Our coaching is at least on par for a first grade side and with the right people around Benji in 24 I think we could be a very well coached side. The issue we had was Sheens' belief that he could conjure something out of key players that were already at their peak. In short we simply didn't have the right cattle.
Look at the Broncos now - not long ago they were in our position. Young forwards have developed, a superstar in Walsh was purchased, an old head was bought in to guide youth and the result has been significant growth.
Parallels - a young forward pack that has depth, Bulla and Api - Sezar?
We are on the precipice, I think the coaching is OK - recruitment is the answer.
If we take an analytical approach as opposed to an emotional approach to the assessment we may well be surprised. First let's look at two that are considered to be top class coaches - Bennett and Bellamy. There are common denominators: they inspire players to reach their potential and the teams that they coach are cohesive. Having said that having quality players is a significant benefit - see how the Phins fell off the edge after a great start due to their lack of depth.
So how about we assess our team against attributes that well coached sides have instead of shooting from the hip. In my opinion a well coached side has five attributes:
- The players believe in themselves,
- Performances are subject to expert analysis
- Coaches recognise the strengths and weaknesses of individual players
- Coaches aren't distracted by a loss
- Well coached sides have fun and that tranlates into performance.
1. The players believe in themselves. If we are to believe what the players say - they have the belief and think that they aren't too far from breaking the big drought. I expect that Sheens and Benji give them belief that they can succeed and I suspect that the "we might have lost the game, but we didn't get beat" is part of that process. Remember, it is what the playing group believe, not what we perceive.
They, the coaches and selectors, blew this season with their belief in "he who can't be named" and AD being the key to success. Despite this poor assessment I expect that they had the players believing in the direction and the plan.
If the Benji hype is true and the players are really motivated by him and the direction the place is heading I think we can give them a pass on this aspect of being well coached.
2. Expert Analysis. Jack Gibson once said that “The use of video evidence is not always conclusive, but it sure beats the memory bank of most witnesses.” WT have a dedicated team of analysts and Sheens is a tactician. He is quite a technical coach and he was definitely a master of the game in his heyday. There is clear evidence that he had the ability to pick apart a game and break it down into the key elements. I don't think that skill is lost and when surrounded by a team of analyists and other recent football brains I think you would be hard pressed to say that we aren't at least on par for this aspect of the coaching spectrum as well.
Where this beaks down is the application of the data - critiquing performance can improve the skills of the player, including their decision-making process. However, the player has to be capable and have the skills to impliment the lessons. I simply don't think we had the right players, in key positions, to do that. Our halves and some outside backs simply don't appear to have the mental capacity for growth beyond their inate skill set. I expect that this was our biggest problem and is why Fulton is such an important cog in the new machine.
3. A good coach recognises the differences between players. I think this is where the Gibsons, Bennetts and Bellamys of this world excel. I watched Matty Johns' inteview of Craig Bellamy a while back and his growth as a coach was greatly influenced by two mentors. Bennett, who he described as knowing each player at a personel level and Sheens who knew their technical skills inside out.
I expect that our coaching staff, especially Benji with his experience under Bennett, understands that the team members are different in terms of attitude, personality, response, sensitivity and how they handle criticism and adversity.
I am positive that this was our undoing in 2023 - our coaching staff had unrealistec expectations of their ability to exploit this and grow key elements of our squad. Our failure this season is based on an unrealistic expectation of player growth (Yes we are taklng about our halves, some centres and wingers). Having said that, there have been improvements across the park in many players that have not translated into results. We are definitely a better side than 2022. You can see the dead wood being trimmed back with more to come. I expect that we will be better for it in 2024.
We failed based on their (the coaches and selectors) blind faith in their annointed halves combination. A bad decision yes, but overall the skill set exists in our coaching staff. So over par but I think the mistake has well and truly been recognised.
4. A well coached team is not distracted by a poor game. We know that Sheens is stubborn and will stick with a plan longer than most fans would like. As much as we fans don't like seeing players outclassed week in week out I imagine that the coaching staff are attuned to it even moreso. Their careers hang on player performances so let's not get caught up in the arm chair hype. The coaching staff have the expert analysis to know what players are performing at what level and they see them at training day in day out.
Our team simply does not have the smarts or abiity to compete at the level required. Is Bennett a shit coach because the Phins lack depth?
I think Sheens and Co. have stuck to their guns from a coaching perspective and get a pass on this. We simply lack the depth to push for change - I expect we will see some players moved on to try and address this.
5. Finally, a well coached side has fun. Good coaches are creative and integrate fun into their coaching techniques. When players are having fun, they are more relaxed and loose and this is seen as a key to high performance. Just look at Melbourne - I doubt Munster would be there if he wasn't having a great time. He would have walked for the $ otherwise - he is that sort of person.
Our lads have turned up week in week out despite the poor results. One or two games we were "beaten" but for the most part they tried for each other. This to me shows that this aspect is also OK. We simply lack the skills.
Overall Assessment. Our coaching is at least on par for a first grade side and with the right people around Benji in 24 I think we could be a very well coached side. The issue we had was Sheens' belief that he could conjure something out of key players that were already at their peak. In short we simply didn't have the right cattle.
Look at the Broncos now - not long ago they were in our position. Young forwards have developed, a superstar in Walsh was purchased, an old head was bought in to guide youth and the result has been significant growth.
Parallels - a young forward pack that has depth, Bulla and Api - Sezar?
We are on the precipice, I think the coaching is OK - recruitment is the answer.
Last edited:
