stevetiger
New member
@BornBlack&Gold said:
I agree that fatigue plays a role but that doesn't mean that it's just conditioning. I think it's also the bench and how we've used our interchanges. I also think some of it is just dumb play.
Changes need to be made
- Thread starter Harvey
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I agree that fatigue plays a role but that doesn't mean that it's just conditioning. I think it's also the bench and how we've used our interchanges. I also think some of it is just dumb play.
@BornBlack&Gold said:
The solution for this quite evident fatigue is very simple. The last couple of weeks we have had three hookers selected. In each of these matches one of these hookers, Cherrington, was used very sparingly. In fact two weeks ago he played less than10 minutes of the whole match. This is a terrible waste of resources brought on by Taylor who after Saturday's match wrongly blamed the team for being their own enemy. I say keep Farah and Halatau (who is a hooker second rower) drop Cherrington and bring in Joel Edwards who is a great tackler.
happy_tiger
Well-known member
@Newtown said:
It is as much mental strength as it is physical , they have proven that they can't maintain any performance over 80 minutes , we get a good 30 every week guaranteed
supercoach
Well-known member
Lack of discipline has been our main problems for years and as Happy Tiger said that all comes from lack of mental strength. When under the pump instead of digging deep and keeping to the structures they make a brain dead play and piggy back the other mob down the field and that results in more tackling and the fatigue sets in. Okay it would be great to have a high impact bench but discipline or should I say lack of discipline will destroy us again in 2016 like most other years
We're a forward or two short and we all knew it in the off-season. Sirro coming back will help and you'd assume Edwards will be picked soon, as that was the plan at the start of the year before his injury. Ive been critical of Taylor's subs though…he's been leaving some players out there way too long and not using others enough. Perhaps Elijah Taylor will also help. This side has similarities to '05 in some regards and that team was very inconsistent for half a season.
balmain boy
Well-known member
Lovett has to go for Edwards. We can't carry this muppet any more. He needs to deserve his spot which he doesn't. His penalties are costing us 1-2 tires every game. Most of them are soft and totally pointless penalties too.
Our left hand attack is so pedestrian its a joke. Brooks, Lovett, Simona and Rankin? None of them have shown any ability to attack all season. How many breaks/points have come down this wing? I think one try all season. Simona did score a support play try against the warriors which doesn't count. Rankin fell over the try line in one game. That's it.
Addo Carr needs to come in. His defence has been good in the matches i've seen him in, even if he had a poor game on the weekend. But it's also not easy to look good playing outside Milone. This guy can't attack or defence to save himself. His desperation in defence and ability to run down opponents, and hit the ball up with venom would also be a big plus. Rankin is slow and constantly out of position. He could have scored 3-4 tries by now but he simply doesn't know where to stand when he's playing wing! I don't think he's an awful player, but he's simply not a winger, and playing him there makes him look worse than he really is.
Aloiai proably needs to be dropped to. Hasn't really offered much this season. Looks confused whether he's a prop or back rower. Runs like a prop, doesn't look like breaking the line. A few 80 min games in NSW Cup will help.
Playing Cherry for 5 mins a game is pointless too. Either he plays at least 20, or he plays nsw cup. Zero point playing 5 mins, he won't develop and he can't do anything in such little time.
Lovett > Edwards
Aloiai > Chee Kam
Cherrington > Griffin/J Grant?
Rankin > Addo Carr
At least 2 of these must be made this week. There's nothing dramatic about them. It's about players having to play well to keep their spots. Or get game time in order to further develop as a player.
Our left hand attack is so pedestrian its a joke. Brooks, Lovett, Simona and Rankin? None of them have shown any ability to attack all season. How many breaks/points have come down this wing? I think one try all season. Simona did score a support play try against the warriors which doesn't count. Rankin fell over the try line in one game. That's it.
Addo Carr needs to come in. His defence has been good in the matches i've seen him in, even if he had a poor game on the weekend. But it's also not easy to look good playing outside Milone. This guy can't attack or defence to save himself. His desperation in defence and ability to run down opponents, and hit the ball up with venom would also be a big plus. Rankin is slow and constantly out of position. He could have scored 3-4 tries by now but he simply doesn't know where to stand when he's playing wing! I don't think he's an awful player, but he's simply not a winger, and playing him there makes him look worse than he really is.
Aloiai proably needs to be dropped to. Hasn't really offered much this season. Looks confused whether he's a prop or back rower. Runs like a prop, doesn't look like breaking the line. A few 80 min games in NSW Cup will help.
Playing Cherry for 5 mins a game is pointless too. Either he plays at least 20, or he plays nsw cup. Zero point playing 5 mins, he won't develop and he can't do anything in such little time.
Lovett > Edwards
Aloiai > Chee Kam
Cherrington > Griffin/J Grant?
Rankin > Addo Carr
At least 2 of these must be made this week. There's nothing dramatic about them. It's about players having to play well to keep their spots. Or get game time in order to further develop as a player.
@happy tiger said:
Physical fatigue due to a very poor bench together with its poor rotation brings on mental fatigue for the remaining players who have been overburdened by the inadequate bench Jason Taylor keeps selecting. Cowboys play two hookers, each of whom are fast and can really tackle. Of the three hookers Taylor has been selecting only Farah has each of these two important attributes but he has returned from a spell and may still not be fully fit.
happy_tiger
Well-known member
@Balmain Boy said:
One problem , if JAC struggles in NSW Cup he will get destroyed at NRL level
Why does everyone look at these speedsters the club has brought over the years hoping their defence will improve as the next Eric Grothe Senior ??
Taqele Naiyavero , Grant might have been quick and big , but if you can't defend you are about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike
balmain boy
Well-known member
@happy tiger said:
In the 3 matches i've seen of him this season his defence has been fine. No worse than Nofoaluma that's for sure and he get's a run every week purely for his attack and tackle breaking ability. His defence is average, and his inability to defuse a kick is incredibly worrying.
If some players can get a callup for attack, why can't others? We're weak on wingers. Nofo and Rankin are both average wingers and JAC is their equal. As equals he should play ahead of Rankin who literally doesn't know how to play on the wing.
happy_tiger
Well-known member
@Balmain Boy said:
But your comparing a bloke who is playing NSW Cup and never experienced NRL against players who have played NRL
And you are basically giving them an equal rating
The step up from NSW Cup to NRL is a big one
If we get to a situation later in the season when we are out of semi contention you give JAC a run or if he improves out of sight in NSW Cup maybe beforehand , but how many players do you see who are speed demons at lower levels that can't crack it at NRL level
Harvey
Well-known member
If we are out of finals contention, I would like to look at some of the u/20's players. Felise, Tatuola, Karwhin, Masters
@happy tiger said:
The step up from ESL to NRL is a big one too, but we're expecting Rankin to do that whilst playing out of position.
re: JAC's defensive aptitude - there's plenty in the first grade squad that aren't up to scratch either, but we've seen fit to let them learn on the job. Why not JAC?
You make valid points happy, but I just think we've nothing to lose in this situation.
JT makes too many safe selections, none of which individually hurt us much, but as a collective we do suffer.
happy_tiger
Well-known member
The difference being that Rankin has played NRL and knows what he is up against , the same goes for Edwards once he comes back (hopefully this week )
The problem is would you prefer to JAC some more game time playing NSW Cup while he gets used to playing against big bodies and experienced older players or throw him in and potentially destroy him
I think they'd prefer to play JAC on the other side but Khee Cam is obviously being turned into a centre and wouldn't have the experience to protect him even though he is potentially better than Milone
Milone is a centre and at least knows the position and can probably help JAC more
The problem is would you prefer to JAC some more game time playing NSW Cup while he gets used to playing against big bodies and experienced older players or throw him in and potentially destroy him
I think they'd prefer to play JAC on the other side but Khee Cam is obviously being turned into a centre and wouldn't have the experience to protect him even though he is potentially better than Milone
Milone is a centre and at least knows the position and can probably help JAC more
Harvey
Well-known member
Recently Peni has been playing as the other centre, and Wheelhouse has benefited from that, though he is a utility back. I still think that he is an option to fill any hole in the threequarters.
Just to shed a bit of light on the selections….if any of you have played the game for quite some time you will understand that the reason you have First Grade and then Reserve grade is the best 17 players are picked for their skill and playing prowess to play in first grade...reserve grade is only there for the emergency player if one or more in FG get hurt or sidelined for whatever reason...granted that very occasionally there will be a player in reserves that maybe able to play FG but not many...now as I said if you are a reserve grade player and you are consistently good in reserve grade week to week you may think your a chance in FG...let me tell you,the step up is big,the speed is much quicker,the skillset of these guys in FG is unbelievable, the fitness level is far higher,just look at the top players from any club and position and you will know what I'm talking about,it takes a paramount of time to even adjust to the FG game ...I'm not knocking anyone who is calling for players from Reserves to get a run in FG ,I'm saying the guys we have may not have the ability to play a top level game of NRL for the full 80 mins or even less,this is why JT could be making the selections he has..I'm not defending him,just stating.....
I will give you an example and this is just group nine back in the eighties...I was playing reserve grade for Turvey Park and I got the call up to play FG against Gundagai on the wing..I was ecstatic,over the moon type stuff...when I looked at the team sheets,Gundagai Tigers had Cliff Lyons playing Five eight he ended up playing for Manly if some of you remember and I was marking a fella by the name of Brian Dennis on the wing,Brian and I became good mates but he went and played for the North Sydney bears....after the game I had stitches above my left eye and I can tell you playing first grade almost wrecked me,it was quick in attack and brutal in defense,I certainly knew I had played a very hard game that day....so hopefully this may help you guys understand that JT may want to make changes,but doesn't want to change something that maybe bad to something worse...just my opinion but hope it can help....
I will give you an example and this is just group nine back in the eighties...I was playing reserve grade for Turvey Park and I got the call up to play FG against Gundagai on the wing..I was ecstatic,over the moon type stuff...when I looked at the team sheets,Gundagai Tigers had Cliff Lyons playing Five eight he ended up playing for Manly if some of you remember and I was marking a fella by the name of Brian Dennis on the wing,Brian and I became good mates but he went and played for the North Sydney bears....after the game I had stitches above my left eye and I can tell you playing first grade almost wrecked me,it was quick in attack and brutal in defense,I certainly knew I had played a very hard game that day....so hopefully this may help you guys understand that JT may want to make changes,but doesn't want to change something that maybe bad to something worse...just my opinion but hope it can help....
Harvey
Well-known member
@TrueTiger said:
But if you have a bloke that stands out in u/20's, then stands out in reserve grade, how do you decide that he is a 1st grader? When does he get the opportunity to prove that he may be an improvement over one of the designated 1st graders. I can understand if you are talking about a blokes that have had numerous opportunities to prove themselves as a 1st grader and never quite done it (Hunt), but blokes like Peni, JAC, MCK and others are youngsters who have never been able prove themselves. Wouldn't they also need to experience it to work out how they need to develop their game to get to the next level.
balmain boy
Well-known member
Totally different these days TT, the 80s are a long time ago, although yes of course there's a significant gap in quality between the grades.
NSW Cup, not reserve grade, is the stepping stone to the NRL. It's where your most promising and fringe NRL players play to develop their skills or keep match fit while they wait for an opportunity. In an ideal scenario the club should be hoping that every player in the NSW Cup side could develop into an NRL player. It's a development league and if you're playing too many players who'll never play first grade you're wasting your time and resources.
You'll get guys like Drinkwater, Waters, Meaney etc who'll be consistently decent players at that level and play the occasional first grade game in the career, and those players are important too. But you sure don't want a team of them. If you look at our current NSW Cup side there's a lot of promising players there who could go on to have NRL careers. The only ones you'd say would be highly unlikely to have prolonged NRL careers are Milone and Marshall King. Of course not all of them will kick on, but they nearly all have the potential to or already are fringe first graders. Compared to last year with the likes of Sila there's a world of difference.
Looking back at our NSW Cup games, Lovett never stood out and simply looked like a hard working but sluggish and ineffective player. He got called up by default, and has somehow maintained his place ever since despite not making an impact in the NRL. There have been numerous other players who have looked far better than Lovett ever did in NSW Cup, in defence and/or attack, but have never got a shot due to politics or whatever reason. Lovett isn't a step above our current back rowers in the NSW Cup - the others just haven't been given a chance due to conservative team selections from JT.
We have players who are repeatedly showing they aren't yet up to playing NRL, and other players of a similar standard should get an opportunity rather than continually persisting with these same players and hoping they get suddenly improve.
NSW Cup, not reserve grade, is the stepping stone to the NRL. It's where your most promising and fringe NRL players play to develop their skills or keep match fit while they wait for an opportunity. In an ideal scenario the club should be hoping that every player in the NSW Cup side could develop into an NRL player. It's a development league and if you're playing too many players who'll never play first grade you're wasting your time and resources.
You'll get guys like Drinkwater, Waters, Meaney etc who'll be consistently decent players at that level and play the occasional first grade game in the career, and those players are important too. But you sure don't want a team of them. If you look at our current NSW Cup side there's a lot of promising players there who could go on to have NRL careers. The only ones you'd say would be highly unlikely to have prolonged NRL careers are Milone and Marshall King. Of course not all of them will kick on, but they nearly all have the potential to or already are fringe first graders. Compared to last year with the likes of Sila there's a world of difference.
Looking back at our NSW Cup games, Lovett never stood out and simply looked like a hard working but sluggish and ineffective player. He got called up by default, and has somehow maintained his place ever since despite not making an impact in the NRL. There have been numerous other players who have looked far better than Lovett ever did in NSW Cup, in defence and/or attack, but have never got a shot due to politics or whatever reason. Lovett isn't a step above our current back rowers in the NSW Cup - the others just haven't been given a chance due to conservative team selections from JT.
We have players who are repeatedly showing they aren't yet up to playing NRL, and other players of a similar standard should get an opportunity rather than continually persisting with these same players and hoping they get suddenly improve.
happy_tiger
Well-known member
@Harvey said:
Any player playing NSW Cup who is wanting to play NRL should be a standout in almost every area of their game that is important
So in the case of JAC he should be good under the high ball , read the play well in defence , being able to work out late in the count and match smarts to whether he needs to go back for downtown or because the opposition might run the ball he needs to not fully drop back , be prepared to come in and shut down a play
In attack obviously centring the play with early returns from kick returns or tackle 2 play , work hard as a possible decoy early in the tackle count , being prepared for the chance of a blind side attack , communicating something he might see in the opposition defence , communicating with his centre partner and hopefully having a bit of speed to burn
I don't go to NSW Cup games but unless he excels in almost all of those areas , he is not ready for NRL and from many reports , his defence doesn't cut it
NRL teams will break you down if you have a weakness in your game , similar to cricketers who have questionable weaknessess as a batsmen
And once one team knows everyone knows
Wests Tigers had two halves who stood out in Under 20's. After a handful of games in State Cup they were promoted to 1st grade and signed on hefty contracts. Up to two years down the track and there is very heavy conjecture as to whether at least one of them was worth it.
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