Coronavirus Outbreak

[Tiger5150]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.


So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

You keep changing the goal post to fit your agenda when you have been proven incorrect. The onus is on you.

By the way .......MR changing goal posts......did you answer my question? Did my post state case mortality and yet you quoted me incidence?

The ONUS is on YOU Mr changing goal posts. If you are going to make these sweeping statements (NOPE AGAIN, IM CHANGING THE GOAL POSTS) when you have so clearly been wrong, and been called on it, Im afraid there is zero chance of good faith discussion and we are done.

 

[mike]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.


So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

You keep changing the goal post to fit your agenda when you have been proven incorrect. The onus is on you.


By the way .......MR changing goal posts......did you answer my question? Did my post state case mortality and yet you quoted me incidence?

The ONUS is on YOU Mr changing goal posts. If you are going to make these sweeping statements (NOPE AGAIN, IM CHANGING THE GOAL POSTS) when you have so clearly been wrong, and been called on it, Im afraid there is zero chance of good faith discussion and we are done.

No twisting words at all. Your whole inference in all of this is that Pfizer would not have developed the vaccine without Warp Speed. That is demonstrably incorrect.

 

[Tiger5150]

Like I stated earlier, here we go again.

Yeah you did say that earlier, havent contributed to the discussion, and then come back and have another snide shot. Your point?

It has been a good discussion in good faith IMO with everyone but Mike. Good to be able to discuss opposing points of view particularly when there are two points of view that are able to be interestingly expressed.

Your objection is?

 

[Tiger5150]

No ***twisting words*** at all. Your whole ***inference*** in all of this is that Pfizer would not have developed the vaccine without Warp Speed. That is ***demonstrably incorrect***.

Wow......just wow.

Im not sure you know what any of these words mean.

Please point me to the post where I say, or even *infer* that Pfizer would not have developed the vaccine without warp speed.

Let me explain to you Mike....if you can not point to a post where I infer that Pfizer would not have developed the vaccine without warp speed, that would be ***demonstrably incorrect*** and you would be in fact....***twisting my words***
.
LEt me give you a hand...in my response to Cochise I said *"Understood, and at no point have I said that the US Govt funded it. I have merely said that the US Govt DID allocate US taxpayer dollars to it in the interests of it being developed and sped up. I think it is obvious and mindless (with politics the only motive) to suggest otherwise."*

again in an earlier response to Cochise I said *"Let me clarify, Im not saying the US Govt did a great job in any respect dealing with COVID and Im not saying that the US Govt (or Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon) sailed in on a white horse with this vaccine, but to suggest that the US Govt had zero impact on the development of the Pfizer vaccine is ridiculous and purely politically driven."*

But lets not little things like facts or the truth get in the way of you putting words in my mouth or twisting my words to suit your own shifting goalposts and for you to try to win a point. ONCE AGAIN you prove you cant discuss in good faith. We are truly done.

 

[mike]

No ***twisting words*** at all. Your whole ***inference*** in all of this is that Pfizer would not have developed the vaccine without Warp Speed. That is ***demonstrably incorrect***.


Wow......just wow.

Im not sure you know what any of these words mean.

Please point me to the post where I say, or even *infer* that Pfizer would not have developed the vaccine without warp speed.

Let me explain to you Mike....if you can not point to a post where I infer that Pfizer would not have developed the vaccine without warp speed, that would be ***demonstrably incorrect*** and you would be in fact....***twisting my words***
.
LEt me give you a hand...in my response to Cochise I said *"Understood, and at no point have I said that the US Govt funded it. I have merely said that the US Govt DID allocate US taxpayer dollars to it in the interests of it being developed and sped up. I think it is obvious and mindless (with politics the only motive) to suggest otherwise."*

again in an earlier response to Cochise I said *"Let me clarify, Im not saying the US Govt did a great job in any respect dealing with COVID and Im not saying that the US Govt (or Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon) sailed in on a white horse with this vaccine, but to suggest that the US Govt had zero impact on the development of the Pfizer vaccine is ridiculous and purely politically driven."*

But lets not little things like facts or the truth get in the way of you putting words in my mouth or twisting my words to suit your own shifting goalposts and for you to try to win a point. ONCE AGAIN you prove you cant discuss in good faith. We are truly done.

Again not twisting of words or facts. You know what you meant and you got caught out twisting the truth and facts to meet your agenda.

 

[Tiger5150]

No ***twisting words*** at all. Your whole ***inference*** in all of this is that Pfizer would not have developed the vaccine without Warp Speed. That is ***demonstrably incorrect***.


Wow......just wow.

Im not sure you know what any of these words mean.

Please point me to the post where I say, or even *infer* that Pfizer would not have developed the vaccine without warp speed.

Let me explain to you Mike....if you can not point to a post where I infer that Pfizer would not have developed the vaccine without warp speed, that would be ***demonstrably incorrect*** and you would be in fact....***twisting my words***
.
LEt me give you a hand...in my response to Cochise I said *"Understood, and at no point have I said that the US Govt funded it. I have merely said that the US Govt DID allocate US taxpayer dollars to it in the interests of it being developed and sped up. I think it is obvious and mindless (with politics the only motive) to suggest otherwise."*

again in an earlier response to Cochise I said *"Let me clarify, Im not saying the US Govt did a great job in any respect dealing with COVID and Im not saying that the US Govt (or Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon) sailed in on a white horse with this vaccine, but to suggest that the US Govt had zero impact on the development of the Pfizer vaccine is ridiculous and purely politically driven."*

But lets not little things like facts or the truth get in the way of you putting words in my mouth or twisting my words to suit your own shifting goalposts and for you to try to win a point. ONCE AGAIN you prove you cant discuss in good faith. We are truly done.

Again not twisting of words or facts. You know what you meant and you got caught out twisting the truth and facts to meet your agenda.

I know exactly what I meant and I expressed it clearly, in english, with peer reviewed articles and definitions to back it up. Then just to make sure, because you called it into question, I posted two previous posts that clearly express *exactly* what I mean.

You on the other hand, at every opportunity when I clearly show you are twisting my words, always come back to the well to have another go and you havent disappointed again.

No doubt you will ignore everything I say and come back and tell me again Im twisting words or moving goalposts whilst you twist my words and move the goalposts.

If you have to respond, how about pointing out the posts where I say Pfizer wouldnt have devloped a vaccine without "warp speed", or alternatively you can explain how I was wrong when I said case mortality and you replied with the definition of incidence?

Or are you finished twisting my words and not answering me directly? I hope so. Im done and Im sure we are boring everyone else.

 

[cochise]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.


So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

You keep changing the goal post to fit your agenda when you have been proven incorrect. The onus is on you.


By the way .......MR changing goal posts......did you answer my question? Did my post state case mortality and yet you quoted me incidence?

The ONUS is on YOU Mr changing goal posts. If you are going to make these sweeping statements (NOPE AGAIN, IM CHANGING THE GOAL POSTS) when you have so clearly been wrong, and been called on it, Im afraid there is zero chance of good faith discussion and we are done.

I don't believe the US governments preorder created that market though, I believe the market was already there and they preordered to secure the vaccine as early as possible.

 

[mike]

No ***twisting words*** at all. Your whole ***inference*** in all of this is that Pfizer would not have developed the vaccine without Warp Speed. That is ***demonstrably incorrect***.


Wow......just wow.

Im not sure you know what any of these words mean.

Please point me to the post where I say, or even *infer* that Pfizer would not have developed the vaccine without warp speed.

Let me explain to you Mike....if you can not point to a post where I infer that Pfizer would not have developed the vaccine without warp speed, that would be ***demonstrably incorrect*** and you would be in fact....***twisting my words***
.
LEt me give you a hand...in my response to Cochise I said *"Understood, and at no point have I said that the US Govt funded it. I have merely said that the US Govt DID allocate US taxpayer dollars to it in the interests of it being developed and sped up. I think it is obvious and mindless (with politics the only motive) to suggest otherwise."*

again in an earlier response to Cochise I said *"Let me clarify, Im not saying the US Govt did a great job in any respect dealing with COVID and Im not saying that the US Govt (or Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon) sailed in on a white horse with this vaccine, but to suggest that the US Govt had zero impact on the development of the Pfizer vaccine is ridiculous and purely politically driven."*

But lets not little things like facts or the truth get in the way of you putting words in my mouth or twisting my words to suit your own shifting goalposts and for you to try to win a point. ONCE AGAIN you prove you cant discuss in good faith. We are truly done.

Again not twisting of words or facts. You know what you meant and you got caught out twisting the truth and facts to meet your agenda.


I know exactly what I meant and I expressed it clearly, in english, with peer reviewed articles and definitions to back it up. Then just to make sure, because you called it into question, I posted two previous posts that clearly express *exactly* what I mean.

You on the other hand, at every opportunity when I clearly show you are twisting my words, always come back to the well to have another go and you havent disappointed again.

No doubt you will ignore everything I say and come back and tell me again Im twisting words or moving goalposts whilst you twist my words and move the goalposts.

If you have to respond, how about pointing out the posts where I say Pfizer wouldnt have devloped a vaccine without "warp speed", or alternatively you can explain how I was wrong when I said case mortality and you replied with the definition of incidence?

Or are you finished twisting my words and not answering me directly? I hope so. Im done and Im sure we are boring everyone else.

Nope, your Cherry picked to fit your narrative. Then when you were presented with actual facts you moved the argument. Then when more facts were presented again you moved again. Even when the numbers were overwhelming you resorted to name calling and straw-man arguments. Go you.

 

[Tiger5150]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.


So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

You keep changing the goal post to fit your agenda when you have been proven incorrect. The onus is on you.


By the way .......MR changing goal posts......did you answer my question? Did my post state case mortality and yet you quoted me incidence?

The ONUS is on YOU Mr changing goal posts. If you are going to make these sweeping statements (NOPE AGAIN, IM CHANGING THE GOAL POSTS) when you have so clearly been wrong, and been called on it, Im afraid there is zero chance of good faith discussion and we are done.

I don't believe the US governments preorder created that market though, I believe the market was already there and they preordered to secure the vaccine as early as possible.

The US government DOES (unquestionably) create a market with a minimum value of $1.95B. That is what the benefit of the pre-order is to Pfizer and they can allocate their R&D to at least that value. Ultimately the total size of the total market will be determined by the global demand for the vaccine and how many suppliers are in the market.

 

[cochise]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.


So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

You keep changing the goal post to fit your agenda when you have been proven incorrect. The onus is on you.


By the way .......MR changing goal posts......did you answer my question? Did my post state case mortality and yet you quoted me incidence?

The ONUS is on YOU Mr changing goal posts. If you are going to make these sweeping statements (NOPE AGAIN, IM CHANGING THE GOAL POSTS) when you have so clearly been wrong, and been called on it, Im afraid there is zero chance of good faith discussion and we are done.

I don't believe the US governments preorder created that market though, I believe the market was already there and they preordered to secure the vaccine as early as possible.

The US government DOES (unquestionably) create a market with a minimum value of $1.95B. That is what the benefit of the pre-order is to Pfizer and they can allocate their R&D to at least that value. Ultimately the total size of the total market will be determined by the global demand for the vaccine and how many suppliers are in the market.

They can't though because that $1.95B isn't guaranteed, there was still a strong chance of failure

 

[mike]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.


So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

You keep changing the goal post to fit your agenda when you have been proven incorrect. The onus is on you.


By the way .......MR changing goal posts......did you answer my question? Did my post state case mortality and yet you quoted me incidence?

The ONUS is on YOU Mr changing goal posts. If you are going to make these sweeping statements (NOPE AGAIN, IM CHANGING THE GOAL POSTS) when you have so clearly been wrong, and been called on it, Im afraid there is zero chance of good faith discussion and we are done.

I don't believe the US governments preorder created that market though, I believe the market was already there and they preordered to secure the vaccine as early as possible.

The US government DOES (unquestionably) create a market with a minimum value of $1.95B. That is what the benefit of the pre-order is to Pfizer and they can allocate their R&D to at least that value. Ultimately the total size of the total market will be determined by the global demand for the vaccine and how many suppliers are in the market.

Nonsense. The market is world wide. It was who ever got there first. The market was there regardless of DOES involvement.

 

[Guest]

Cut the crap guys. Like watching a bunch of children argue.

 

[Tiger5150]

No ***twisting words*** at all. Your whole ***inference*** in all of this is that Pfizer would not have developed the vaccine without Warp Speed. That is ***demonstrably incorrect***.


Wow......just wow.

Im not sure you know what any of these words mean.

Please point me to the post where I say, or even *infer* that Pfizer would not have developed the vaccine without warp speed.

Let me explain to you Mike....if you can not point to a post where I infer that Pfizer would not have developed the vaccine without warp speed, that would be ***demonstrably incorrect*** and you would be in fact....***twisting my words***
.
LEt me give you a hand...in my response to Cochise I said *"Understood, and at no point have I said that the US Govt funded it. I have merely said that the US Govt DID allocate US taxpayer dollars to it in the interests of it being developed and sped up. I think it is obvious and mindless (with politics the only motive) to suggest otherwise."*

again in an earlier response to Cochise I said *"Let me clarify, Im not saying the US Govt did a great job in any respect dealing with COVID and Im not saying that the US Govt (or Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon) sailed in on a white horse with this vaccine, but to suggest that the US Govt had zero impact on the development of the Pfizer vaccine is ridiculous and purely politically driven."*

But lets not little things like facts or the truth get in the way of you putting words in my mouth or twisting my words to suit your own shifting goalposts and for you to try to win a point. ONCE AGAIN you prove you cant discuss in good faith. We are truly done.

Again not twisting of words or facts. You know what you meant and you got caught out twisting the truth and facts to meet your agenda.


I know exactly what I meant and I expressed it clearly, in english, with peer reviewed articles and definitions to back it up. Then just to make sure, because you called it into question, I posted two previous posts that clearly express *exactly* what I mean.

You on the other hand, at every opportunity when I clearly show you are twisting my words, always come back to the well to have another go and you havent disappointed again.

No doubt you will ignore everything I say and come back and tell me again Im twisting words or moving goalposts whilst you twist my words and move the goalposts.

If you have to respond, how about pointing out the posts where I say Pfizer wouldnt have devloped a vaccine without "warp speed", or alternatively you can explain how I was wrong when I said case mortality and you replied with the definition of incidence?

Or are you finished twisting my words and not answering me directly? I hope so. Im done and Im sure we are boring everyone else.

Nope, your Cherry picked to ***fit your narrative***. Then when you were presented with actual facts you moved the argument. Then when more facts were presented again you moved again. Even when the numbers were overwhelming you resorted to name calling and straw-man arguments. Go you.

Mate, you stated "my narrative" was that Pfizer would not have developed a vaccine without warp speed. I have given you an opportunity in EVERY one of the last four or five posts to back that up. Please point out my posts where I say that Pfizer would not have developed a vaccine without "Warp Speed".....Ill wait.

Facts presented? Ive been through your posts and the only facts you presented were..... *"History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries."* These are indeed facts and convincing facts. Trouble is, as I explained over and over and over again, you are explaining *incidence* to me in response to me quoting (and provided peer reviewed references) case mortality and you accused me of moving goal posts. Still waiting for your explanation for that.

So if you intend to keep interacting with me you need to .....

1. Point out ONE post of mine that fits "my narrative" (that you totally didnt make up or twist my words) that Pfizer wouldnt have developed a vaccine without "Warp Speed"

or

2. Explain why when I quote and reference case mortality you respond with incidence and accuse me of twisting words...

or

3. Point out the "facts" that you posted that I twisted.

Of course you dont **need** to do any of these things, you could completely disregard them as you have so far and keep digging yourself deeper but Im done and bored and Im sure its worse for everyone else.

 

[Tiger5150]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.


So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

You keep changing the goal post to fit your agenda when you have been proven incorrect. The onus is on you.


By the way .......MR changing goal posts......did you answer my question? Did my post state case mortality and yet you quoted me incidence?

The ONUS is on YOU Mr changing goal posts. If you are going to make these sweeping statements (NOPE AGAIN, IM CHANGING THE GOAL POSTS) when you have so clearly been wrong, and been called on it, Im afraid there is zero chance of good faith discussion and we are done.

I don't believe the US governments preorder created that market though, I believe the market was already there and they preordered to secure the vaccine as early as possible.

The US government DOES (unquestionably) create a market with a minimum value of $1.95B. That is what the benefit of the pre-order is to Pfizer and they can allocate their R&D to at least that value. Ultimately the total size of the total market will be determined by the global demand for the vaccine and how many suppliers are in the market.

Nonsense. The market is world wide. It was who ever got there first. The market was there regardless of DOES involvement.

How big was that market on 01/07/2020?

 

[cochise]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.


So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

You keep changing the goal post to fit your agenda when you have been proven incorrect. The onus is on you.


By the way .......MR changing goal posts......did you answer my question? Did my post state case mortality and yet you quoted me incidence?

The ONUS is on YOU Mr changing goal posts. If you are going to make these sweeping statements (NOPE AGAIN, IM CHANGING THE GOAL POSTS) when you have so clearly been wrong, and been called on it, Im afraid there is zero chance of good faith discussion and we are done.

I don't believe the US governments preorder created that market though, I believe the market was already there and they preordered to secure the vaccine as early as possible.

The US government DOES (unquestionably) create a market with a minimum value of $1.95B. That is what the benefit of the pre-order is to Pfizer and they can allocate their R&D to at least that value. Ultimately the total size of the total market will be determined by the global demand for the vaccine and how many suppliers are in the market.

Nonsense. The market is world wide. It was who ever got there first. The market was there regardless of DOES involvement.


How big was that market on 01/07/2020?

Mate it was there, countries were in lockdown and there had already been half a million deaths.

 

[Tim Sheens]

Cut the crap guys. Like watching a bunch of children argue.

Cut the crap guys. Like watching a bunch of children argue.

There is a constant throughout threads on here with multiples of other posters.

It reminds me of the guy when out that after ruining the evening for most either forces them to want to leave, else someone smacks him in the mouth so everyone else can enjoy the evening or is escorted out to the cheers of the establishment.

 

[mike]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.


So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

You keep changing the goal post to fit your agenda when you have been proven incorrect. The onus is on you.


By the way .......MR changing goal posts......did you answer my question? Did my post state case mortality and yet you quoted me incidence?

The ONUS is on YOU Mr changing goal posts. If you are going to make these sweeping statements (NOPE AGAIN, IM CHANGING THE GOAL POSTS) when you have so clearly been wrong, and been called on it, Im afraid there is zero chance of good faith discussion and we are done.

I don't believe the US governments preorder created that market though, I believe the market was already there and they preordered to secure the vaccine as early as possible.

The US government DOES (unquestionably) create a market with a minimum value of $1.95B. That is what the benefit of the pre-order is to Pfizer and they can allocate their R&D to at least that value. Ultimately the total size of the total market will be determined by the global demand for the vaccine and how many suppliers are in the market.

Nonsense. The market is world wide. It was who ever got there first. The market was there regardless of DOES involvement.


How big was that market on 01/07/2020?

You have shown absolutely no evidence to support your assumptions. Just wishful thinking on your part again to meet your narrative. Pfizer has publicly stated that no Warp Speed funds were used to develop the vaccine. Unless you have a document or link from Pfizer stating that it was influenced in developing the vaccine from pre-orders from Warp Speed funds you have nothing, zip, nada. That’s the end of the fairytale.

 

[Tiger5150]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.


So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

You keep changing the goal post to fit your agenda when you have been proven incorrect. The onus is on you.


By the way .......MR changing goal posts......did you answer my question? Did my post state case mortality and yet you quoted me incidence?

The ONUS is on YOU Mr changing goal posts. If you are going to make these sweeping statements (NOPE AGAIN, IM CHANGING THE GOAL POSTS) when you have so clearly been wrong, and been called on it, Im afraid there is zero chance of good faith discussion and we are done.

I don't believe the US governments preorder created that market though, I believe the market was already there and they preordered to secure the vaccine as early as possible.

The US government DOES (unquestionably) create a market with a minimum value of $1.95B. That is what the benefit of the pre-order is to Pfizer and they can allocate their R&D to at least that value. Ultimately the total size of the total market will be determined by the global demand for the vaccine and how many suppliers are in the market.

Nonsense. The market is world wide. It was who ever got there first. The market was there regardless of DOES involvement.


How big was that market on 01/07/2020?

Mate it was there, countries were in lockdown and there had already been half a million deaths.

100% correct.

But the answer to my question is the value of the market for vaccine on 01/07/2020 was $0.00.

Massive demand, zero supply. No Market.

Now.......what is the value of the market for the vaccine to Pfizer in January 2021 if herd immunity had worked as per the Swedish model or if control measures worked and it disappeared like SARS1? The answer to that question is also (close to) $0.00.

Now, what is the value of the market 15/07/2020 after US Govt Preorder min 100M doses. Answer is the value of the market to Pfizer is $ 1.95B.

What is the value as we stand with the vaccine rolling out and the virus rampant across the US and Europe? Probably in the $10's of Billions.

 

[mike]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.


So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

You keep changing the goal post to fit your agenda when you have been proven incorrect. The onus is on you.


By the way .......MR changing goal posts......did you answer my question? Did my post state case mortality and yet you quoted me incidence?

The ONUS is on YOU Mr changing goal posts. If you are going to make these sweeping statements (NOPE AGAIN, IM CHANGING THE GOAL POSTS) when you have so clearly been wrong, and been called on it, Im afraid there is zero chance of good faith discussion and we are done.

I don't believe the US governments preorder created that market though, I believe the market was already there and they preordered to secure the vaccine as early as possible.

The US government DOES (unquestionably) create a market with a minimum value of $1.95B. That is what the benefit of the pre-order is to Pfizer and they can allocate their R&D to at least that value. Ultimately the total size of the total market will be determined by the global demand for the vaccine and how many suppliers are in the market.

Nonsense. The market is world wide. It was who ever got there first. The market was there regardless of DOES involvement.


How big was that market on 01/07/2020?

Mate it was there, countries were in lockdown and there had already been half a million deaths.


100% correct.

But the answer to my question is the value of the market for vaccine on 01/07/2020 was $0.00.

Massive demand, zero supply. No Market.

Now.......what is the value of the market for the vaccine to Pfizer in January 2020 if herd immunity had worked as per the Swedish model or if control measures worked and it disappeared like SARS1? The answer to that question is also (close to) $0.00.

Now, what is the value of the market 15/07/2020 after US Govt Preorder min 100M doses. Answer is the value of the market to Pfizer is $ 1.95B.

What is the value as we stand with the vaccine rolling out and the virus rampant across the US and Europe? Probably in the $10's of Billions.

The market developed as the death toll rose. The demand for a vaccine rose as a result. No fancy words were needed.

 

[cochise]

The Pfizer vaccine did not receive one cent of US taxpayer funding.

That is not true. In July the US Govt preordered 600Million doses for US$1.92B. That is a LOT of US taxpayer cents.

Before you start splitting hairs between "grants" and pre-orders, it is irrelevant. It is all guaranteed return on investment.

Much is made of the fact that there has never been a vaccine made before for a coronavirus. This is not because it is hard or not possible to make a vaccine for coronavirus, but because previously with other coronavirus (SARS etc) the threat and therefore the demand is over before it is possible to develop a vaccine and therefore millions of $$ washed down the toilet. By pre-ordering and guaranteeing $ 1.92B, the US government made sure of the development.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-agreement-us-government-600

Was this pre-order paid for at the time of the order or was it to be paid when and if the order was delivered? This makes a massive difference.


Why does it make a "massive" difference?


It makes zero difference, it is guaranteed return on investment of $1.92M US dollars. More than enough incentive to make it happen.


or in Pfizers own words....*" **Pfizer Inc.** (NYSE: PFE) and BioNTech SE (Nasdaq: BNTX) today announced the execution of an agreement with the ***U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense to meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed program*** goal to begin delivering 300 million doses of a vaccine for COVID-19 in 2021. Under the agreement, the U.S. government will receive 100 million doses of BNT162, the COVID-19 vaccine candidate jointly developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, after Pfizer successfully manufactures and obtains approval or emergency use authorization from U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)."*

This narrative that the Pfizer vaccine had nothing to do with the US government or the "warp speed" project is ridiculous and purely anti Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon driven.

Because the risk is all with Pfizer. They pay for the research and development. The orders only pay off if they are the successful candidate. If it had failed ***or others had beat them*** the pre-orders amount to naught.


Except that that is not true. They just need to make 100M doses and they get the $1.92M.

Why did the US not pre-order from other companies?

False. That is only true because they were successful in developing the vaccine. Had it failed they would have got zip, nada, nothing. Because they have been successful they will get orders from many countries. Warp Speed pre orders are meaningless. Many govts, including the US would order from whoever was successful.


Complete rubbish. So Pfizer are working out if they are going to spend millions/billions on R&D, like every other drug they develop. They sit down and work out if it will be worth it, will the pendemic end before its developed, what the market for it will be, whether it is worth the risk....and the US government comes along and says "you make it and you are guaranteed a minimum of $ 1.92B" and that has no impact on the development of the vaccine? Rubbish.

Lets entertain it for a second....lets say you are right and I am wrong (you arent and Im not).....if thats the case....why did the US pre-order? Why wouldnt they just wait to see who develops it first?

Nope again. Pre-orders mean nothing unless you can produce the product. In the case of vaccines there is a high risk of failure. Actual grants for research and development are meaningful. Whoever developed the vaccine for Covid19 first was always going to make a money, for orders and pre-orders from all over the world. If they don’t produce a viable vaccine all those pre-orders are worthless and they don’t make a cent and lose money.


Except that there isnt a guaranteed market.

Tell me again why a coronavirus has never been previously developed, despite the fact that there have been deadlier coronavirus' previously, but this one was developed in 9 months?

Because there has never been a global pandemic involving one before?


There has been global epidemics with much deadlier strains previously, SARS1 and even more deadlier MERS were both coronaviruses. The reason there was not a vaccine is because they were over quickly and its not worth a Pfizer spending months and millions developing one without a market.

Nope again. They never were more deadly as they didn’t spread as easily as Covid19. They had the potential to be more deadly but it never eventuated as it they weren’t as infectious as Covid19.


If you are going to keep up the ***nope again*** stupidity, it would pay to be correct.

The case mortality rate for SARS1 was 14%. That is, if you caught it, you had a 14% chance of dying regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 10 x higher than COVID.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/05/estimates-sars-death-rates-revised-upward

The case mortality rate for MERS was 35% regardless of age or underlying health conditions. This is more than 30 x higher than COVID.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/diseases/Pages/MERS.aspx

As i said in my original post COVID is much more contagious (not mortality).

Nope again. History disagrees with you. Mortality and contagious go hand in hand. If it can’t spread it can’t kill. That’s how herd immunity works. Covid19 is very contagious and is a killer. Over 1.6M dead world wide. More than 300K in the US alone. Far worse than MERS. I think MERS- Cov had like 858 deaths in total across 27 countries.


So ironic that every post of yours starting with "Nope again" you have been wrong, and yet you keep plugging away. Thats cute.

I said case mortality.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30246-2/fulltext

I am happy to discuss issues with anyone here, particularly those with different opinions and Im always quick to acknowledge when Im wrong or there is common ground or concessions. However Im only interested in discussing those who are prepared to discuss in good faith and those that dont knowingly and intentionally twist words or resort to semantics. That is clearly not you. We wont be discussing this further Mr Nope again.

You keep changing the goal post to fit your agenda when you have been proven incorrect. The onus is on you.


By the way .......MR changing goal posts......did you answer my question? Did my post state case mortality and yet you quoted me incidence?

The ONUS is on YOU Mr changing goal posts. If you are going to make these sweeping statements (NOPE AGAIN, IM CHANGING THE GOAL POSTS) when you have so clearly been wrong, and been called on it, Im afraid there is zero chance of good faith discussion and we are done.

I don't believe the US governments preorder created that market though, I believe the market was already there and they preordered to secure the vaccine as early as possible.

The US government DOES (unquestionably) create a market with a minimum value of $1.95B. That is what the benefit of the pre-order is to Pfizer and they can allocate their R&D to at least that value. Ultimately the total size of the total market will be determined by the global demand for the vaccine and how many suppliers are in the market.

Nonsense. The market is world wide. It was who ever got there first. The market was there regardless of DOES involvement.


How big was that market on 01/07/2020?

Mate it was there, countries were in lockdown and there had already been half a million deaths.


100% correct.

But the answer to my question is the value of the market for vaccine on 01/07/2020 was $0.00.

Massive demand, zero supply. No Market.

Now.......what is the value of the market for the vaccine to Pfizer in January 2020 if herd immunity had worked as per the Swedish model or if control measures worked and it disappeared like SARS1? The answer to that question is also (close to) $0.00.

Now, what is the value of the market 15/07/2020 after US Govt Preorder min 100M doses. Answer is the value of the market to Pfizer is $ 1.95B.

What is the value as we stand with the vaccine rolling out and the virus rampant across the US and Europe? Probably in the $10's of Billions.

Herd immunity wasn't going to work though, it was only a few countries that even considered it. England flirted with it and it was a disaster well before July. Look at the mess Italy was in, the majority of reports that I read had the experts saying that going for herd imunity wouldn't work and the only path to herd immunity was through the development of a vaccine.