Coronavirus Outbreak

[hobbo1]

I’m thinking of going to Russia to get the Sputnik 5 vaccine ?

Thoughts ?

Trans Siberian is still on my bucket list

That would be an epic trip !

 

[Tim Sheens]

Press Club address just started on ABC TV or news channel on vaccines that some may find interesting.

 

[mike]

Press Club address just started on ABC TV or news channel on vaccines that some may find interesting.

Interesting so far.

 

[Tiger5150]

Press Club address just started on ABC TV or news channel on vaccines that some may find interesting.

Summary?

 

[mike]

Press Club address just started on ABC TV or news channel on vaccines that some may find interesting.


Summary?

Get vaccinated if you can...

 

[Geo]

Press Club address just started on ABC TV or news channel on vaccines that some may find interesting.


Summary?


Get vaccinated if you can...

Gee..wouldn't have picked that...

 

[Tiger5150]

Almost reads like something that could have been published in a state sanctioned Chinese newspaper.

I'm not buying that line. I don't think the WHO narrative is a China narrative.

They had the guy doing the bat virus gain of function research in the Wuhan Lab, investigate the bat virus gain of function research in the Wuhan Lab. Nothing to see here....

 

[BZN]

>So many people just dismiss they opposing view , no matter whether the person put a lot of thought into it. You’re a lefty , do gooder from the right , and your a racist bogan from the left . Both wanting the other side silenced . I know it’s not really relevant to this , but I personally worry when I see this stuff .

This polarising binary of speech now removes all nuance from discussions. IMO it is a consequence of the politicisation of everything (particulary in the US), red team v blue team.

COVID vaccines are the perfect example. Its either the VACCINE IS PROVEN TO BE SAFE or the only other response is YOU SHOULD NOT TAKE THE VACCINE ANTIVAX view. Neither side of this binary is correct or tells the whole story. The vaccines are not proven to be safe, there has been no longitudinal studies done on the safety of them, but they have been proven (within acceptable parameters) to be safe in the short term. The choices people make are for their individual and community benefit, but it seems the media and social media narrative regarding it is that the community is incapable of discussing or making decisions as adults.

Im not an antivaxer, if/when my time comes I'll stick my arm out for the Oxford/Astra Zenaca vaccine(only).

Yep . Me too . So will my kids . But the conversation around how safe the vaccines are needs to be had . Especially if some unforeseen side effect rears it’s ugly head in the future .

I am a drug development project manager and I've been in the industry for 17 years. My company does contract work and we managed the Pfizer COVID vaccine study in the US, as well as the Novavax study (I did not work on it personally).

I don't really understand the comments about having a public "conversation" over the safety of vaccines. Your average person is not qualified to assess drug safety, nor does your average person understand the biostatistical analysis of trial data. The people who approve drugs for general consumption ARE the people who have expertise in the matter. So if a regulatory body deems that a drug is proven sufficiently safe, then that's about as good as you are going to get. Involving lay people in the discussion isn't really helpful.

By all means, do your own research on vaccines. The information is freely available. Do your research on everything, not just health. But also, you have to trust that the people who approve vaccines for general consumption are experts at doing so. Same as they approve other types of drugs for the general public, which aren't under scrutiny like vaccines are.

Or - don't trust the process, if you prefer, but understand that the process applies to ALL drugs, not just vaccines. So anti-vaxxers should also be wary of headache tablets, muscle relaxants, laxatives, cancer medications etc.

That's not to accuse anyone here of being an anti-vaxxer, just to give context about the process of developing and approving drugs - all drugs. I'm never quite clear why vaccines specifically have so much public focus. Or more correctly, I know that one guy published an article linking vaccines with autism many years ago, but that has been entirely hosed-down and I'm not sure why folks continue to worry more about vaccines than other medications. We've been giving shots to kids for a long time and the primary outcome has been near total eradication of a wide variety of illnesses that used to cause significant childhood mortality and morbidity.

People have to understand that the COVID vaccines are not being rushed or pushed through irresponsibly, despite political and social pressure to get the work done. In fact, these trials are getting much more medical and safety attention than any average trial would. Part of the reason the trials appear to be occurring quickly is because many of the red-tape hurdles have been removed. It's also proving much easier to get people to sign up for COVID trials than your average trial.

Furthermore, most, if not all, of the vaccines being applied to COVID are based on existing research/technologies. So pharma companies didn't have to wait to ramp up their trial abilities: they had the technology available once COVID was profiled/mapped.

For example the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine, they've been fooling around with the technology for years. Once they isolated COVID they were ready to go, and my company has a pre-existing partnership for managing Pfizer clinical trials, so they rolled out a protocol for my company to start work on. The protocol designs are usually very similar; you basically drop the study into the existing framework and get going.

Secondary to the trial design, part of taking any medication is being reliably informed of the risk-benefit profile by a medical professional. But that's not a public debate, that's a discussion you have with your doctor. That's also the reason they stick the little paper pamphlets in every single prescription medication, with warnings all over the box. That IS the safety discussion.

If you are in doubt, like with anything, do your own research and discuss with a professional. There's plenty of easily-accessible and transparent information available online regarding COVID vaccines and their clinical trials:

Lastly in terms of long-term safety studies, I don't know how realistic that is. I don't mean from the POV of time elapsed, I simply mean due to the nature of vaccine delivery. Most drugs with long-term safety profiles are subscription products - i.e. you take them continuously for long periods. With vaccines, you treatment is normally over after a few weeks max, and typically side-effects present within a few days (e.g. injection-site reactions, allergies etc.). Vaccines have been well-studied over a very long period of time, so pharma companies have become pretty good at anticipating and managing side-effects, most of which tend to be quite benign.

Vaccines work to elicit an immune response, so they are typically quite weak products and it's your body that does the heavy lifting. Seriously, do the research on known and predicted adverse reactions to any/all vaccines and you will see the same fairly modest stuff over and over - headache, joint ache, injection-site swelling, chills, tiredness etc.

Consider it like drinking alcohol - the difference between the safety of drinking a lot of alcohol in a short period vs over a very long-period. The outcomes here are very different and there's no specific reason to expect that having 20 beers in one week will set you up for life-long outcomes.

Statistically, I think its very very unlikely we are going to see serious unexpected long-term adverse reactions from COVID vaccines. That's not to say we don't continue to do the safety analysis work (for example, the Pfizer study is collecting safety events for 2 years post dose, so it is ongoing), but just to realise it's a precaution and there is not any specific rationale to wait for more data before folks start getting their shots.

And all this is part of the conversation . No matter what anyone says, people are wary of it , because perception equals reality . If you perceive something to be true then that’s your truth . It’s just most of us can rationally , pivot , the moment better information presents itself .

I understand what your saying . I’m not an anti Vaxer at all . But we should have healthy conversations about it . Why not ? Even if the conversation is simply be to explain why it’s safe and the reasons for it .
I’m constantly having to have conversations about things I do at work , to people who arnt as informed and think of ways to explain things to them , so they can walk away more educated . Especially in the most ELI5 way I can think . Otherwise , people go off half cocked , and for me , and the company I work for . Especially in the role I have , they get extremely angry about things because of the lack of information, and it affects them .
Who’s got the time to do that research mate ? I mean seriously ? I find it interesting and will later , but most will just look at dr Facebook , posted by Mother of 3 amber from Byron bay , and take that as gospel .
Many people are concerned about the eagerness of most to give away all thier power to the government . I don’t know what to think. But I’ve had many conversations with all kinds of people about it , and the ethics , morals and to more extremes the conspiracy theories .

The vaccination is just , really, an overt example of the controls we are giving to others. And a lot of people , unless they’ve had the tragedy of a family member passing , secretly arnt sure of covid isn’t a hoax . The rational part of the brain corrects them , but they have lingering doubt .
Some super intelligent people I’ve met feel this way. Not enough to not get vaccinated , or get out the signs and March on Parliament House, or even voice it to most people . But it’s an itch that sits in the back of thier head . One of my close mates thought this way , until a couple of family members were fighting for thier life in the last few weeks .
These conversations have to be had . Not in the , “I know more than you , cause your dumb and don’t believe” belittling way. Especially if the only reason you believe is you lost a close family member .
There’s nothing wrong with discussing it . And people who think there is . Are the problem I’ve been posting about the last few days . If you know more , don’t be a douche to people who have reservations . Try and ease thier worry . Because thier concerns are fair enough IMO. I mean it’s not like a government had never tried to control the population through nefarious means before is it ............

Perception is not reality. Perception is the lens through which we view reality. 'Perception is reality' is a statement that is often used to justify a perception that is objectively unjustifiable.

Perception is the mental gymnastics or a mental impression of something. Reality is how things actually exist. Perception is the lens through which we process, remember, interpret, decide and act on reality. If we perceive things that are way out of touch with reality then we have a problem with our perception lens, and that can shift from illusion to delusion.

By all means let us have a discussion, I’m all for that, but at least let’s have a discussion that has some basis in reality.

We are not islands, everything in modern society requires the cooperation and trust in others, I don’t see this as giving away power, and in fact I find this empowering. As an example there is no way I could develop any one of the many vaccines that have saved my life, and I am happy that others have, so I can benefit. Are vaccines perfect? No, I have never heard anyone involved in the medical profession ever saying they were. As with any medical intervention it is a balancing act between risk vs benefit. I am I qualified enough to make that assessment? No I am not. I’ll leave that to the medical experts in that field. I won’t be leaving it to the “Mother of 3 amber from Byron bay”.

During the pandemic have we given away power to the government? Yes absolutely. Sometimes I think it is a bit over the top but the numbers don’t lie. Compared to most of the rest of the world Australia is the place to be. Can we refine the liberties we give away or is there better ways of coping with the Pandemic, probably and 20-20 hindsight is wonderful. My personal opinion is the Federal Government has relegated its responsibilities to the states and that is not acceptable to me. Is Hotel quarantine the best solution for return travellers? I am in the camp that would like to see quarantine facilities outside of the capital cities, greatly reducing the risk to the majority of the population. None of the objections to this, that I have seen, could not be overcome with some innovation, planning and management.

Australians are known for the rebellious nature. After all we started as a convict settlement. I have my fair share healthy contempt for authority, but I am also a pragmatist.

[/QUOTE]

 

[earl]

Almost reads like something that could have been published in a state sanctioned Chinese newspaper.

I'm not buying that line. I don't think the WHO narrative is a China narrative.

They had the guy doing the bat virus gain of function research in the Wuhan Lab, investigate the bat virus gain of function research in the Wuhan Lab. Nothing to see here....

I just go off the facts. I'm not doubting this virus couldn't have come from a lab. So far though the best science appears to state that this virus developed as per most previous epidemics/pandemics and it is a virus transmitted from animals to people.

At the moment there is nothing factual to any belief that the virus came from a lab.

If the evidence changes then the position changes. It's not really something to debate.

 

[Tiger5150]

Almost reads like something that could have been published in a state sanctioned Chinese newspaper.

I'm not buying that line. I don't think the WHO narrative is a China narrative.

They had the guy doing the bat virus gain of function research in the Wuhan Lab, investigate the bat virus gain of function research in the Wuhan Lab. Nothing to see here....

I just go off the facts. I'm not doubting this virus couldn't have come from a lab. So far though the best science appears to state that this virus developed as per most previous epidemics/pandemics and it is a virus transmitted from animals to people.

At the moment there is nothing factual to any belief that the virus came from a lab.

If the evidence changes then the position changes. It's not really something to debate.

not the point Im making. My point is if you are at least making the charade of an "independent" investigation, wouldnt you at least get someone, you know, independent to investigate it?

At the start of our (you and me) conversation on this, my point was simply that it isnt a conspiracy theory to suggest its possible that it was a lab leak and its not at all.

But this is EXACTLY how conspiracy theories start. It is impossible to believe anything that the WHO says in this investigation, before they even release their findings and that is how community trust is blown away. In something as critical as this world wide pandemic, IMO it is critical that there is a world medical/scientific body that can be relied upon for credible information and WHO have blown it repeatedly.

Side note: the science does not point to what you say it does, it actually proves otherwise, but lets NOT get on that merry go round again. If you are interested I can explain it in PM's

 

[Tim Sheens]

Press Club address just started on ABC TV or news channel on vaccines that some may find interesting.


Summary?

Only caught some of the opening address along with less of the latter participants between phone calls regarding a course. Then writing in the politics thread and elsewhere towards the end, with not much context when mostly missing questions during the program, so nothing concrete or significant to report.

Types, strains, origins, mutations and efficacy as a result etcetera, so doubt you missed anything of consequence. The ABC news channel normally just runs at low volume in the background for me when able and occasionally piquing my interest, so the program details were posted as more of a community announcement than anything.

 

[Tiger5150]

Press Club address just started on ABC TV or news channel on vaccines that some may find interesting.


Summary?

Only caught a some of the opening address along with less of the latter between phone calls regarding a course, then writing in the politics thread and elsewhere towards the end, with not much context when mostly missing questions during the program, so nothing concrete or significant to report.

Types, strains, origins, mutations and efficacy as a result etcetera, so doubt you missed anything of consequence. The ABC news channel normally just runs at low volume in the background for me when able and occasionally piquing my interest, so the program details were posted as more of a community announcement than anything.

No worries thanks. I am interested (and will do my own research) because I have been firmly of the opinion (for me and no one else) that Ill stick my arm out for the Oxford/Astra Zeneca vaccine, but not the others, simply because their have been longitudinal studies of the Oxford delivery mechanism but not the others. Thought I recently heard that the efficacy of the Oxford vaccine against the funky new English/South African strains was in question. Thought they may have addressed that.

 

[BZN]

>So many people just dismiss they opposing view , no matter whether the person put a lot of thought into it. You’re a lefty , do gooder from the right , and your a racist bogan from the left . Both wanting the other side silenced . I know it’s not really relevant to this , but I personally worry when I see this stuff .

This polarising binary of speech now removes all nuance from discussions. IMO it is a consequence of the politicisation of everything (particulary in the US), red team v blue team.

COVID vaccines are the perfect example. Its either the VACCINE IS PROVEN TO BE SAFE or the only other response is YOU SHOULD NOT TAKE THE VACCINE ANTIVAX view. Neither side of this binary is correct or tells the whole story. The vaccines are not proven to be safe, there has been no longitudinal studies done on the safety of them, but they have been proven (within acceptable parameters) to be safe in the short term. The choices people make are for their individual and community benefit, but it seems the media and social media narrative regarding it is that the community is incapable of discussing or making decisions as adults.

Im not an antivaxer, if/when my time comes I'll stick my arm out for the Oxford/Astra Zenaca vaccine(only).

Yep . Me too . So will my kids . But the conversation around how safe the vaccines are needs to be had . Especially if some unforeseen side effect rears it’s ugly head in the future .

I am a drug development project manager and I've been in the industry for 17 years. My company does contract work and we managed the Pfizer COVID vaccine study in the US, as well as the Novavax study (I did not work on it personally).

I don't really understand the comments about having a public "conversation" over the safety of vaccines. Your average person is not qualified to assess drug safety, nor does your average person understand the biostatistical analysis of trial data. The people who approve drugs for general consumption ARE the people who have expertise in the matter. So if a regulatory body deems that a drug is proven sufficiently safe, then that's about as good as you are going to get. Involving lay people in the discussion isn't really helpful.

By all means, do your own research on vaccines. The information is freely available. Do your research on everything, not just health. But also, you have to trust that the people who approve vaccines for general consumption are experts at doing so. Same as they approve other types of drugs for the general public, which aren't under scrutiny like vaccines are.

Or - don't trust the process, if you prefer, but understand that the process applies to ALL drugs, not just vaccines. So anti-vaxxers should also be wary of headache tablets, muscle relaxants, laxatives, cancer medications etc.

That's not to accuse anyone here of being an anti-vaxxer, just to give context about the process of developing and approving drugs - all drugs. I'm never quite clear why vaccines specifically have so much public focus. Or more correctly, I know that one guy published an article linking vaccines with autism many years ago, but that has been entirely hosed-down and I'm not sure why folks continue to worry more about vaccines than other medications. We've been giving shots to kids for a long time and the primary outcome has been near total eradication of a wide variety of illnesses that used to cause significant childhood mortality and morbidity.

People have to understand that the COVID vaccines are not being rushed or pushed through irresponsibly, despite political and social pressure to get the work done. In fact, these trials are getting much more medical and safety attention than any average trial would. Part of the reason the trials appear to be occurring quickly is because many of the red-tape hurdles have been removed. It's also proving much easier to get people to sign up for COVID trials than your average trial.

Furthermore, most, if not all, of the vaccines being applied to COVID are based on existing research/technologies. So pharma companies didn't have to wait to ramp up their trial abilities: they had the technology available once COVID was profiled/mapped.

For example the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine, they've been fooling around with the technology for years. Once they isolated COVID they were ready to go, and my company has a pre-existing partnership for managing Pfizer clinical trials, so they rolled out a protocol for my company to start work on. The protocol designs are usually very similar; you basically drop the study into the existing framework and get going.

Secondary to the trial design, part of taking any medication is being reliably informed of the risk-benefit profile by a medical professional. But that's not a public debate, that's a discussion you have with your doctor. That's also the reason they stick the little paper pamphlets in every single prescription medication, with warnings all over the box. That IS the safety discussion.

If you are in doubt, like with anything, do your own research and discuss with a professional. There's plenty of easily-accessible and transparent information available online regarding COVID vaccines and their clinical trials:

Lastly in terms of long-term safety studies, I don't know how realistic that is. I don't mean from the POV of time elapsed, I simply mean due to the nature of vaccine delivery. Most drugs with long-term safety profiles are subscription products - i.e. you take them continuously for long periods. With vaccines, you treatment is normally over after a few weeks max, and typically side-effects present within a few days (e.g. injection-site reactions, allergies etc.). Vaccines have been well-studied over a very long period of time, so pharma companies have become pretty good at anticipating and managing side-effects, most of which tend to be quite benign.

Vaccines work to elicit an immune response, so they are typically quite weak products and it's your body that does the heavy lifting. Seriously, do the research on known and predicted adverse reactions to any/all vaccines and you will see the same fairly modest stuff over and over - headache, joint ache, injection-site swelling, chills, tiredness etc.

Consider it like drinking alcohol - the difference between the safety of drinking a lot of alcohol in a short period vs over a very long-period. The outcomes here are very different and there's no specific reason to expect that having 20 beers in one week will set you up for life-long outcomes.

Statistically, I think its very very unlikely we are going to see serious unexpected long-term adverse reactions from COVID vaccines. That's not to say we don't continue to do the safety analysis work (for example, the Pfizer study is collecting safety events for 2 years post dose, so it is ongoing), but just to realise it's a precaution and there is not any specific rationale to wait for more data before folks start getting their shots.

And all this is part of the conversation . No matter what anyone says, people are wary of it , because perception equals reality . If you perceive something to be true then that’s your truth . It’s just most of us can rationally , pivot , the moment better information presents itself .

I understand what your saying . I’m not an anti Vaxer at all . But we should have healthy conversations about it . Why not ? Even if the conversation is simply be to explain why it’s safe and the reasons for it .
I’m constantly having to have conversations about things I do at work , to people who arnt as informed and think of ways to explain things to them , so they can walk away more educated . Especially in the most ELI5 way I can think . Otherwise , people go off half cocked , and for me , and the company I work for . Especially in the role I have , they get extremely angry about things because of the lack of information, and it affects them .
Who’s got the time to do that research mate ? I mean seriously ? I find it interesting and will later , but most will just look at dr Facebook , posted by Mother of 3 amber from Byron bay , and take that as gospel .
Many people are concerned about the eagerness of most to give away all thier power to the government . I don’t know what to think. But I’ve had many conversations with all kinds of people about it , and the ethics , morals and to more extremes the conspiracy theories .

The vaccination is just , really, an overt example of the controls we are giving to others. And a lot of people , unless they’ve had the tragedy of a family member passing , secretly arnt sure of covid isn’t a hoax . The rational part of the brain corrects them , but they have lingering doubt .
Some super intelligent people I’ve met feel this way. Not enough to not get vaccinated , or get out the signs and March on Parliament House, or even voice it to most people . But it’s an itch that sits in the back of thier head . One of my close mates thought this way , until a couple of family members were fighting for thier life in the last few weeks .
These conversations have to be had . Not in the , “I know more than you , cause your dumb and don’t believe” belittling way. Especially if the only reason you believe is you lost a close family member .
There’s nothing wrong with discussing it . And people who think there is . Are the problem I’ve been posting about the last few days . If you know more , don’t be a douche to people who have reservations . Try and ease thier worry . Because thier concerns are fair enough IMO. I mean it’s not like a government had never tried to control the population through nefarious means before is it ............

Perception is not reality. Perception is the lens through which we view reality. 'Perception is reality' is a statement that is often used to justify a perception that is objectively unjustifiable.

Perception is the mental gymnastics or a mental impression of something. Reality is how things actually exist. Perception is the lens through which we process, remember, interpret, decide and act on reality. If we perceive things that are way out of touch with reality then we have a problem with our perception lens, and that can shift from illusion to delusion.

By all means let us have a discussion, I’m all for that, but at least let’s have a discussion that has some basis in reality.

We are not islands, everything in modern society requires the cooperation and trust in others, I don’t see this as giving away power, and in fact I find this empowering. As an example there is no way I could develop any one of the many vaccines that have saved my life, and I am happy that others have, so I can benefit. Are vaccines perfect? No, I have never heard anyone involved in the medical profession ever saying they were. As with any medical intervention it is a balancing act between risk vs benefit. I am I qualified enough to make that assessment? No I am not. I’ll leave that to the medical experts in that field. I won’t be leaving it to the “Mother of 3 amber from Byron bay”.

During the pandemic have we given away power to the government? Yes absolutely. Sometimes I think it is a bit over the top but the numbers don’t lie. Compared to most of the rest of the world Australia is the place to be. Can we refine the liberties we give away or is there better ways of coping with the Pandemic, probably and 20-20 hindsight is wonderful. My personal opinion is the Federal Government has relegated its responsibilities to the states and that is not acceptable to me. Is Hotel quarantine the best solution for return travellers? I am in the camp that would like to see quarantine facilities outside of the capital cities, greatly reducing the risk to the majority of the population. None of the objections to this, that I have seen, could not be overcome with some innovation, planning and management.

Australians are known for the rebellious nature. After all we started as a convict settlement. I have my fair share healthy contempt for authority, but I am also a pragmatist.

So your reality is the same as my reality ? That’s not philosophically possible . Our experiences , and environment , people around us etc shape the lens to which we see the reality . It’s like being colour blind . What if you didn’t know you were colour blind ? Would it just be a lens at that point ? The way you state that , is like most people can differentiate between the perception and the reality . Most people can’t .
That’s so obtuse , and close minded to imply that it’s mental gymnastics that people are doing
Everyone has a lifetime of experiences that shape this lens , twist it and distort it . The function of questioning everything is evolutionary, as it serves a function for self preservation, it’s hardly isolated to Australia because some white people got off a boat 200 years ago.
I don’t understand what your trying to say ? That because you believe something , or even I believe that everyone else is wrong for being sceptical ? Thats arrogant IMO.
There’s so much information out there that’s bogus , and so many echo chambers of bad ideas , that are completely siloed from each other, let alone the rest of us , that you have to break through those barriers . It’s the reason the uptake for the jab in many countries is really slow.
People are listening to thier sceptical voice . Rightly or wrongly .
So the conversation has to be had. Just because you feel what you feel , and are self Riteous about it , doesn’t mean everyone else is .
The simple lockdown that a lot of people have done , even though the laws have relaxed hasnt helped either . People are scared . You don’t calm people by telling them they’re idiots because you know what’s right . That has not , and never will work .

[/QUOTE]

I am really impressed with a big majority of the posts and the standard of debate on here...much better than anything I could contribute...and it's a footy forum.
We are so lucky/ I am so appreciative for all the work that @Kul does for Us to keep this Forum running smoothly ...and...the work the Admins put in to keep the rubbish ie swearing etc out.
Although I gotta say I do feel at times some of the Admins display a 'Holier Than Though attitude'.

 

[jirskyr]

I understand what your saying . I’m not an anti Vaxer at all . But we should have healthy conversations about it . Why not ? Even if the conversation is simply be to explain why it’s safe and the reasons for it .
These conversations have to be had . Not in the , “I know more than you , cause your dumb and don’t believe” belittling way. Especially if the only reason you believe is you lost a close family member .
There’s nothing wrong with discussing it . And people who think there is . Are the problem I’ve been posting about the last few days . If you know more , don’t be a douche to people who have reservations . Try and ease thier worry . Because thier concerns are fair enough IMO. I mean it’s not like a government had never tried to control the population through nefarious means before is it …

I don't know what the solution is in terms of broader communication. I have ongoing fears that society is generally becoming more and more skeptical even though there is an ever greater ability to do research via online resources. It's something like the fight between fear/opinion and evidence-based discussion.

My main concern, as voiced, is that there is a big difference between concern about an issue and rejection of the stated facts of an issue. Again - I am not saying anyone in this forum is doing this. Of course it's natural to have concerns regarding your personal health, and again it's probably best to discuss that with your doctor, with whom you hopefully share a long-term trusting relationship.

But then you say "who has the time to do that research mate?" That's highly concerning to me! If something like vaccination is serious to someone, they should find the time to do research. Because whilst social media tends to muddy the waters of popular opinion, there's also never been an easier time in history to get access to information online.

So for example your comment - having conversations about "why it's safe and reasons for it" - that involves research. Not difficult research, there are lots of fairly straight forward resources. In fact, I'd argue that COVID is being given the most energy and effort in terms of helping the wider population understand what's going on. For example most folks can name 2 or 3 vaccine candidates. Most folks now have some idea what the R value is in a pandemic. Everyone knows what social distancing is. You could not have said any of that 1.5 years ago.

The government can only do so much with mailbox drops and TV ads. I'm not aware of an Australian government trying to control the population, no. If the government / politicians concern you specifically then don't listen to the pollies, listen to scientists, the TGA (they are bipartisan), your doctor.

 

[jirskyr]

During the pandemic have we given away power to the government? Yes absolutely. Sometimes I think it is a bit over the top but the numbers don’t lie. Compared to most of the rest of the world Australia is the place to be. Can we refine the liberties we give away or is there better ways of coping with the Pandemic, probably and 20-20 hindsight is wonderful.

We can fall back on the fact that the Australian government is a democratically elected group that can be removed from power if required. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that our government isn't fairly elected. They might collectively act like morons from time to time, but we put them there.

And we know this because we have compulsory voting.

 

[Tiger5150]

During the pandemic have we given away power to the government? Yes absolutely. Sometimes I think it is a bit over the top but the numbers don’t lie. Compared to most of the rest of the world Australia is the place to be. Can we refine the liberties we give away or is there better ways of coping with the Pandemic, probably and 20-20 hindsight is wonderful.

We can fall back on the fact that the Australian government is a democratically elected group that can be removed from power if required. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that our government isn't fairly elected. They might collectively act like morons from time to time, but we put them there.

And we know this because we have compulsory voting.

Agreed. They are also reliably human and incompetent which for me is a positive. Everytime I hear a full on conspiracy theory that the Govt is manipulating to control us for nefarious purposes here in Aus, my instinctive reaction is that they are not actually good enough to keep that together to the level required.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

I'm OK with people expressing contrary opinion based on expert opinion. If there's enough science there that's OK. I guess conversely you could argue then what constitutes as enough. You also need be wary of an "expert" who has other motives for pushing their barrow (i.e. Andrew Wakefield who is basically the father of the modern anti-vaxxer movement.)

I have no issue with people being a little wary of COVID-19 vaccines as they have not been subject to the long term testing that other vaccines have. We do have tried and tested methods of making sure vaccines are safe and don't cause short or long term infirmity to people.

Objectively though, lets not also forget though that the first vaccine was basically ground up cowpox sores that were placed into a deliberately made cut on the skin after Jenner noticed that milkmaidens were less likely to get smallpox. The first vaccinations were borne out of mere observation. Things have become more complex and modern and I have relative faith they will be safe, even with fast-tracked approval.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

During the pandemic have we given away power to the government? Yes absolutely. Sometimes I think it is a bit over the top but the numbers don’t lie. Compared to most of the rest of the world Australia is the place to be. Can we refine the liberties we give away or is there better ways of coping with the Pandemic, probably and 20-20 hindsight is wonderful.

We can fall back on the fact that the Australian government is a democratically elected group that can be removed from power if required. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that our government isn't fairly elected. They might collectively act like morons from time to time, but we put them there.

And we know this because we have compulsory voting.


Agreed. They are also reliably human and incompetent which for me is a positive. Everytime I hear a full on conspiracy theory that the Govt is manipulating to control us for nefarious purposes here in Aus, my instinctive reaction is that they are not actually good enough to keep that together to the level required.

Basically the only government I believe that would be able to pull off a substantial conspiracy would be the Chinese as they are extremely competent and equally capable now.

 

[Deleted member 3518]

I understand what your saying . I’m not an anti Vaxer at all . But we should have healthy conversations about it . Why not ? Even if the conversation is simply be to explain why it’s safe and the reasons for it .
These conversations have to be had . Not in the , “I know more than you , cause your dumb and don’t believe” belittling way. Especially if the only reason you believe is you lost a close family member .
There’s nothing wrong with discussing it . And people who think there is . Are the problem I’ve been posting about the last few days . If you know more , don’t be a douche to people who have reservations . Try and ease thier worry . Because thier concerns are fair enough IMO. I mean it’s not like a government had never tried to control the population through nefarious means before is it …

I don't know what the solution is in terms of broader communication. I have ongoing fears that society is generally becoming more and more skeptical even though there is an ever greater ability to do research via online resources. It's something like the fight between fear/opinion and evidence-based discussion.

My main concern, as voiced, is that there is a big difference between concern about an issue and rejection of the stated facts of an issue. Again - I am not saying anyone in this forum is doing this. Of course it's natural to have concerns regarding your personal health, and again it's probably best to discuss that with your doctor, with whom you hopefully share a long-term trusting relationship.

But then you say "who has the time to do that research mate?" That's highly concerning to me! If something like vaccination is serious to someone, they should find the time to do research. Because whilst social media tends to muddy the waters of popular opinion, there's also never been an easier time in history to get access to information online.

So for example your comment - having conversations about "why it's safe and reasons for it" - that involves research. Not difficult research, there are lots of fairly straight forward resources. In fact, I'd argue that COVID is being given the most energy and effort in terms of helping the wider population understand what's going on. For example most folks can name 2 or 3 vaccine candidates. Most folks now have some idea what the R value is in a pandemic. Everyone knows what social distancing is. You could not have said any of that 1.5 years ago.

The government can only do so much with mailbox drops and TV ads. I'm not aware of an Australian government trying to control the population, no. If the government / politicians concern you specifically then don't listen to the pollies, listen to scientists, the TGA (they are bipartisan), your doctor.

Everything your saying is perfect world . And I agree with it . But that’s not the world we live in .
Single mum Karen , picks the kids up from school , speaks to other Karen’s about covid , goes home gets dinner ready , gets the kids to bed , then sits down to have a few wines whilst going on a you tube spiral where she might messenger the other Karen’s , and so it goes .

Or you get people who just want to be an ostrich , and stick thier head in the sand and watch John wick 3 . They don’t want the burden of reading this stuff .
How can this shock you ? If you say you’re pragmatic like @mike did , then you kind of have to accept this as fact . I know it sux especially in a field , where you , and I guess the people you directly work with seem to have the best intentions , but to me , this is far from shocking .
It’s an overload for a lot of people . Like the real life equivalent of watching saw movies and no longer wincing when the dude chops his arm off . It’s desensitisation. Or it’s misinformation.
Much like in another life I used to live , it’s about hearts and minds. I know people SHOULD just listen to you . But they don’t know you , and , a side effect of all this lockdown , and everybody going into thier own ,I guess ,cocoon with thier family ,it’s fully bread distrust. I mean look at the pasta and toilet paper fiasco . The same emotion that spurred the “it’s the apocalypse, where the TP”, for many people is fueling the lack of desire to get the vaccine . DISTRUST. They don’t trust the person standing in the line , or the person next to them at the park , or the person telling them to get he vaccine . Especially if they’ve gone down a negative you tube spiral .

 

[mike]

I understand what your saying . I’m not an anti Vaxer at all . But we should have healthy conversations about it . Why not ? Even if the conversation is simply be to explain why it’s safe and the reasons for it .
These conversations have to be had . Not in the , “I know more than you , cause your dumb and don’t believe” belittling way. Especially if the only reason you believe is you lost a close family member .
There’s nothing wrong with discussing it . And people who think there is . Are the problem I’ve been posting about the last few days . If you know more , don’t be a douche to people who have reservations . Try and ease thier worry . Because thier concerns are fair enough IMO. I mean it’s not like a government had never tried to control the population through nefarious means before is it …

I don't know what the solution is in terms of broader communication. I have ongoing fears that society is generally becoming more and more skeptical even though there is an ever greater ability to do research via online resources. It's something like the fight between fear/opinion and evidence-based discussion.

My main concern, as voiced, is that there is a big difference between concern about an issue and rejection of the stated facts of an issue. Again - I am not saying anyone in this forum is doing this. Of course it's natural to have concerns regarding your personal health, and again it's probably best to discuss that with your doctor, with whom you hopefully share a long-term trusting relationship.

But then you say "who has the time to do that research mate?" That's highly concerning to me! If something like vaccination is serious to someone, they should find the time to do research. Because whilst social media tends to muddy the waters of popular opinion, there's also never been an easier time in history to get access to information online.

So for example your comment - having conversations about "why it's safe and reasons for it" - that involves research. Not difficult research, there are lots of fairly straight forward resources. In fact, I'd argue that COVID is being given the most energy and effort in terms of helping the wider population understand what's going on. For example most folks can name 2 or 3 vaccine candidates. Most folks now have some idea what the R value is in a pandemic. Everyone knows what social distancing is. You could not have said any of that 1.5 years ago.

The government can only do so much with mailbox drops and TV ads. I'm not aware of an Australian government trying to control the population, no. If the government / politicians concern you specifically then don't listen to the pollies, listen to scientists, the TGA (they are bipartisan), your doctor.

Everything your saying is perfect world . And I agree with it . But that’s not the world we live in .
Single mum Karen , picks the kids up from school , speaks to other Karen’s about covid , goes home gets dinner ready , gets the kids to bed , then sits down to have a few wines whilst going on a you tube spiral where she might messenger the other Karen’s , and so it goes .

Or you get people who just want to be an ostrich , and stick thier head in the sand and watch John wick 3 . They don’t want the burden of reading this stuff .
How can this shock you ? If you say you’re pragmatic like @mike did , then you kind of have to accept this as fact . I know it sux especially in a field , where you , and I guess the people you directly work with seem to have the best intentions , but to me , this is far from shocking .
It’s an overload for a lot of people . Like the real life equivalent of watching saw movies and no longer wincing when the dude chops his arm off . It’s desensitisation. Or it’s misinformation.
Much like in another life I used to live , it’s about hearts and minds. I know people SHOULD just listen to you . But they don’t know you , and , a side effect of all this lockdown , and everybody going into thier own ,I guess ,cocoon with thier family ,it’s fully bread distrust. I mean look at the pasta and toilet paper fiasco . The same emotion that spurred the “it’s the apocalypse, where the TP”, for many people is fueling the lack of desire to get the vaccine . DISTRUST. They don’t trust the person standing in the line , or the person next to them at the park , or the person telling them to get he vaccine . Especially if they’ve gone down a negative you tube spiral .

When push comes to shove I have more confidence in the majority of the Australian population making the positive choice and getting vaccinated.