Coronavirus Outbreak

[cochise]

Thankyou @jirskyr for your unique insights and comments.
I love reading behind-the-scenes and factual info like that.

An update from over here:
12.6million vaccinated so far
They have now vaccinated over 90% of people aged 75 and approaching similar numbers with as the age decreases.
Clinically vulnerable people are being vaccinated now too, my mate who has bad diabetes got his shot last week. Hats off the UK government, they are ahead of schedule here and it's clearly working!

Good to see the government there at least getting this part right along with other decisions of late after what I would call multiple policy failures over many months.

Over here the government have scheduled announcements of further announcements to move on from other announcements on vaccines. Pretty sure they announced we were not only at the head of the queues, but also that we would have 4 million vaccinated by March.

To be honest, I am not that concerned about being a little behind other nations in regards to vaccinations. Things are not as critical here so we have time to follow our processes and with things being much more dire overseas I think they need the head start to get things under control.

 

[Tim Sheens]

Thankyou @jirskyr for your unique insights and comments.
I love reading behind-the-scenes and factual info like that.

An update from over here:
12.6million vaccinated so far
They have now vaccinated over 90% of people aged 75 and approaching similar numbers with as the age decreases.
Clinically vulnerable people are being vaccinated now too, my mate who has bad diabetes got his shot last week. Hats off the UK government, they are ahead of schedule here and it's clearly working!

Good to see the government there at least getting this part right along with other decisions of late after what I would call multiple policy failures over many months.

Over here the government have scheduled announcements of further announcements to move on from other announcements on vaccines. Pretty sure they announced we were not only at the head of the queues, but also that we would have 4 million vaccinated by March.

To be honest, I am not that concerned about being a little behind other nations in regards to vaccinations. Things are not as critical here so we have time to follow our processes and with things being much more dire overseas I think they need the head start to get things under control.

On which we agree, just sick of announcements and lies with little to no action on just about anything, particularly other emergency promises.

 

[earl]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/australian-scientist-on-who-mission-confident-covid-19-originated-in-china-20210210-p571cz.html

Another article on the WHO investigation. Not anything new here.

 

[jadtiger]

Thankyou @jirskyr for your unique insights and comments.
I love reading behind-the-scenes and factual info like that.

An update from over here:
12.6million vaccinated so far
They have now vaccinated over 90% of people aged 75 and approaching similar numbers with as the age decreases.
Clinically vulnerable people are being vaccinated now too, my mate who has bad diabetes got his shot last week. Hats off the UK government, they are ahead of schedule here and it's clearly working!

Good to see the government there at least getting this part right along with other decisions of late after what I would call multiple policy failures over many months.

Over here the government have scheduled announcements of further announcements to move on from other announcements on vaccines. Pretty sure they announced we were not only at the head of the queues, but also that we would have 4 million vaccinated by March.

To be honest, I am not that concerned about being a little behind other nations in regards to vaccinations. Things are not as critical here so we have time to follow our processes and with things being much more dire overseas I think they need the head start to get things under control.

On which we agree, just sick of announcements and lies with little to no action on just about anything, particularly other emergency promises.

The main problem with that is if you keep on doing nothing when you decide to start everything has to happen without a problem.I dont have faith in the smoke and mirrors party especially if their action in regards to climate change and the banking commissions recomendations are any guide.Scamo is as fast moving as Ularu when it comes to doing things and Craig Kelly is still pushing snake oil lies to the public despite being told by Scamo not to.

 

[BZN]

During the pandemic have we given away power to the government? Yes absolutely. Sometimes I think it is a bit over the top but the numbers don’t lie. Compared to most of the rest of the world Australia is the place to be. Can we refine the liberties we give away or is there better ways of coping with the Pandemic, probably and 20-20 hindsight is wonderful.

We can fall back on the fact that the Australian government is a democratically elected group that can be removed from power if required. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that our government isn't fairly elected. They might collectively act like morons from time to time, but we put them there.

And we know this because we have compulsory voting.


Agreed. They are also reliably human and incompetent which for me is a positive. Everytime I hear a full on conspiracy theory that the Govt is manipulating to control us for nefarious purposes here in Aus, my instinctive reaction is that they are not actually good enough to keep that together to the level required.

Basically the only government I believe that would be able to pull off a substantial conspiracy would be the Chinese as they are extremely competent and equally capable now.

G'day CB. The more I see and hear about China, the more I believe **1984** is just around the corner.
And that genuinely scares me for the generations that come after us Oldies.

 

[Harvey]

Almost reads like something that could have been published in a state sanctioned Chinese newspaper.

I'm not buying that line. I don't think the WHO narrative is a China narrative. I don't think it was ever likely the virus came from a lab. We know that viruses can leak from labs but it was unlikely that was the case this time. I think we already knew it wasn't a man made virus.

I still think labs studying viruses and wet markets or any trade in exotic animals is dangerous.

In stating that viruses do migrate from animals to humans regularly. We've had many pandemics/epidemics in the past that have occurred in this fashion. That is why this is by far the most likely explanation.

It is also hard to pin point exactly where the virus started. The same thing happened in the Spanish Flu outbreak. It probably started in America but I don't think the exact site was ever proven.

It is not the original host (animal) that I have an issue with, it is the suggestion that the virus existed elsewhere in the world and was imported into China via frozen food.

 

[earl]

Almost reads like something that could have been published in a state sanctioned Chinese newspaper.

I'm not buying that line. I don't think the WHO narrative is a China narrative. I don't think it was ever likely the virus came from a lab. We know that viruses can leak from labs but it was unlikely that was the case this time. I think we already knew it wasn't a man made virus.

I still think labs studying viruses and wet markets or any trade in exotic animals is dangerous.

In stating that viruses do migrate from animals to humans regularly. We've had many pandemics/epidemics in the past that have occurred in this fashion. That is why this is by far the most likely explanation.

It is also hard to pin point exactly where the virus started. The same thing happened in the Spanish Flu outbreak. It probably started in America but I don't think the exact site was ever proven.


It is not the original host (animal) that I have an issue with, it is the suggestion that the virus existed elsewhere in the world and was imported into China via frozen food.

China are always going to say stupid things. I agree that it is highly unlikely it was imported into China.

I think the exotic animal trade is way too risky to continue and this practice is common in China. I also don't like creating these viruses in labs. There have been outbreaks from labs.

I also think at the moment based on the evidence and this has nothing at all to do with China that the virus like many other viruses in the past crossed over from animals into humans. I think it's highly likely the virus started in China via crossing over from animals and China tried to keep it quiet.

I'm just someone who goes off the predominant evidence. It's like the vaccine discussions above. I will trust the reputable source rather than some edge case. If the edge case has evidence backing it up then cool but if not then I'll stick to what the evidence shows.

 

[Harvey]

Almost reads like something that could have been published in a state sanctioned Chinese newspaper.

I'm not buying that line. I don't think the WHO narrative is a China narrative. I don't think it was ever likely the virus came from a lab. We know that viruses can leak from labs but it was unlikely that was the case this time. I think we already knew it wasn't a man made virus.

I still think labs studying viruses and wet markets or any trade in exotic animals is dangerous.

In stating that viruses do migrate from animals to humans regularly. We've had many pandemics/epidemics in the past that have occurred in this fashion. That is why this is by far the most likely explanation.

It is also hard to pin point exactly where the virus started. The same thing happened in the Spanish Flu outbreak. It probably started in America but I don't think the exact site was ever proven.


It is not the original host (animal) that I have an issue with, it is the suggestion that the virus existed elsewhere in the world and was imported into China via frozen food.

China are always going to say stupid things. I agree that it is highly unlikely it was imported into China.

I think the exotic animal trade is way too risky to continue and this practice is common in China. I also don't like creating these viruses in labs. There have been outbreaks from labs.

I also think at the moment based on the evidence and this has nothing at all to do with China that the virus like many other viruses in the past crossed over from animals into humans. I think it's highly likely the virus started in China via crossing over from animals and China tried to keep it quiet.

I'm just someone who goes off the predominant evidence. It's like the vaccine discussions above. I will trust the reputable source rather than some edge case. If the edge case has evidence backing it up then cool but if not then I'll stick to what the evidence shows.

I note that the Australian scientist has backed away from the ridiculous hypothesis that the virus originated elsewhere and was transported to China.

Any consideration of that theory likely evaporated once the plane touched down and he was no longer under threat of detainment and re-education.

 

[earl]

Almost reads like something that could have been published in a state sanctioned Chinese newspaper.

I'm not buying that line. I don't think the WHO narrative is a China narrative. I don't think it was ever likely the virus came from a lab. We know that viruses can leak from labs but it was unlikely that was the case this time. I think we already knew it wasn't a man made virus.

I still think labs studying viruses and wet markets or any trade in exotic animals is dangerous.

In stating that viruses do migrate from animals to humans regularly. We've had many pandemics/epidemics in the past that have occurred in this fashion. That is why this is by far the most likely explanation.

It is also hard to pin point exactly where the virus started. The same thing happened in the Spanish Flu outbreak. It probably started in America but I don't think the exact site was ever proven.


It is not the original host (animal) that I have an issue with, it is the suggestion that the virus existed elsewhere in the world and was imported into China via frozen food.

China are always going to say stupid things. I agree that it is highly unlikely it was imported into China.

I think the exotic animal trade is way too risky to continue and this practice is common in China. I also don't like creating these viruses in labs. There have been outbreaks from labs.

I also think at the moment based on the evidence and this has nothing at all to do with China that the virus like many other viruses in the past crossed over from animals into humans. I think it's highly likely the virus started in China via crossing over from animals and China tried to keep it quiet.

I'm just someone who goes off the predominant evidence. It's like the vaccine discussions above. I will trust the reputable source rather than some edge case. If the edge case has evidence backing it up then cool but if not then I'll stick to what the evidence shows.

I note that the Australian scientist has backed away from the ridiculous hypothesis that the virus originated elsewhere and was transported to China.

Any consideration of that theory likely evaporated once the plane touched down and he was no longer under threat of detainment and re-education.

I don't believe the WHO are being white washed via China. That Australian scientist speaking up proves my point.

There are lots of possibilities in relation to how the virus came about. There is a difference between possibilities and probabilities and evidence.

We know the virus had some mass spreading events from around Wuhan. I think it's pretty safe to assume it came from there. It also appears the virus spread from animals. Those are the probable scenarios that we have. We shouldn't be sidetracked with the possibilities no matter who is pushing those possibilities unless they have really good evidence.

 

[dazza65]

China investigates China and finds that China is not responsible for the virus that originated in China.
All good, move on.

 

[Tiger5150]

Almost reads like something that could have been published in a state sanctioned Chinese newspaper.

I'm not buying that line. I don't think the WHO narrative is a China narrative. I don't think it was ever likely the virus came from a lab. We know that viruses can leak from labs but it was unlikely that was the case this time. I think we already knew it wasn't a man made virus.

I still think labs studying viruses and wet markets or any trade in exotic animals is dangerous.

In stating that viruses do migrate from animals to humans regularly. We've had many pandemics/epidemics in the past that have occurred in this fashion. That is why this is by far the most likely explanation.

It is also hard to pin point exactly where the virus started. The same thing happened in the Spanish Flu outbreak. It probably started in America but I don't think the exact site was ever proven.


It is not the original host (animal) that I have an issue with, it is the suggestion that the virus existed elsewhere in the world and was imported into China via frozen food.

China are always going to say stupid things. I agree that it is highly unlikely it was imported into China.

I think the exotic animal trade is way too risky to continue and this practice is common in China. I also don't like creating these viruses in labs. There have been outbreaks from labs.

I also think at the moment based on the ***evidence*** and this has nothing at all to do with China that the virus like many other viruses in the past crossed over from animals into humans. I think it's highly likely the virus started in China via crossing over from animals and China tried to keep it quiet.

I'm just someone who goes off the predominant ***evidence***. It's like the vaccine discussions above. I will trust the reputable source rather than some edge case. If the edge case has ***evidence*** backing it up then cool but if not then I'll stick to what the ***evidence*** shows.

Genuinely not having a crack at you Earl, but you state evidence a lot in your posts. Could you post the evidence that shows that this virus passed from an animal to a human? Im not aware of any and would genuinely be interested in seeing it.

To clarify what I am talking about, we know for sure that SARS COV 1 came directly from bats to humans. The reason that we know this for sure is because Shi Zhengli of the Wuhan Institute of Virology actually tracked down the bats and found that exact virus in them and tested that it transferred to humans. There has not been an animal found in Wuhan or elsewhere with SAR COV2 in it. Not even in the Wet Market and they were tested.

TBH I am surprised China havent just lied and come out and said they found it in the Wet Market, but they havent, maybe because they are still pushing for the "it came from outside China" angle.

 

[dazza65]

TBH I am surprised China havent just lied and come out and said they found it in the Wet Market, but they havent, maybe because they are still pushing for the “it came from outside China” angle.

I agree... they are still very much positioning that it is more likely to have come from Canada/US/Europe.....

 

[mike]

Almost reads like something that could have been published in a state sanctioned Chinese newspaper.

I'm not buying that line. I don't think the WHO narrative is a China narrative. I don't think it was ever likely the virus came from a lab. We know that viruses can leak from labs but it was unlikely that was the case this time. I think we already knew it wasn't a man made virus.

I still think labs studying viruses and wet markets or any trade in exotic animals is dangerous.

In stating that viruses do migrate from animals to humans regularly. We've had many pandemics/epidemics in the past that have occurred in this fashion. That is why this is by far the most likely explanation.

It is also hard to pin point exactly where the virus started. The same thing happened in the Spanish Flu outbreak. It probably started in America but I don't think the exact site was ever proven.


It is not the original host (animal) that I have an issue with, it is the suggestion that the virus existed elsewhere in the world and was imported into China via frozen food.

China are always going to say stupid things. I agree that it is highly unlikely it was imported into China.

I think the exotic animal trade is way too risky to continue and this practice is common in China. I also don't like creating these viruses in labs. There have been outbreaks from labs.

I also think at the moment based on the ***evidence*** and this has nothing at all to do with China that the virus like many other viruses in the past crossed over from animals into humans. I think it's highly likely the virus started in China via crossing over from animals and China tried to keep it quiet.

I'm just someone who goes off the predominant ***evidence***. It's like the vaccine discussions above. I will trust the reputable source rather than some edge case. If the edge case has ***evidence*** backing it up then cool but if not then I'll stick to what the ***evidence*** shows.

Genuinely not having a crack at you Earl, but you state evidence a lot in your posts. Could you post the evidence that shows that this virus passed from an animal to a human? Im not aware of any and would genuinely be interested in seeing it.

To clarify what I am talking about, we know for sure that SARS COV 1 came directly from bats to humans. The reason that we know this for sure is because Shi Zhengli of the Wuhan Institute of Virology actually tracked down the bats and found that exact virus in them and tested that it transferred to humans. There has not been an animal found in Wuhan or elsewhere with SAR COV2 in it. Not even in the Wet Market and they were tested.

TBH I am surprised China havent just lied and come out and said they found it in the Wet Market, but they havent, maybe because they are still pushing for the "it came from outside China" angle.

They claimed it came from Australian meat imports didn't they?

 

[dazza65]

They claimed it came from Australian meat imports didn’t they?

It came from everywhere but there.......

 

[Tiger5150]

Almost reads like something that could have been published in a state sanctioned Chinese newspaper.

I'm not buying that line. I don't think the WHO narrative is a China narrative. I don't think it was ever likely the virus came from a lab. We know that viruses can leak from labs but it was unlikely that was the case this time. I think we already knew it wasn't a man made virus.

I still think labs studying viruses and wet markets or any trade in exotic animals is dangerous.

In stating that viruses do migrate from animals to humans regularly. We've had many pandemics/epidemics in the past that have occurred in this fashion. That is why this is by far the most likely explanation.

It is also hard to pin point exactly where the virus started. The same thing happened in the Spanish Flu outbreak. It probably started in America but I don't think the exact site was ever proven.


It is not the original host (animal) that I have an issue with, it is the suggestion that the virus existed elsewhere in the world and was imported into China via frozen food.

China are always going to say stupid things. I agree that it is highly unlikely it was imported into China.

I think the exotic animal trade is way too risky to continue and this practice is common in China. I also don't like creating these viruses in labs. There have been outbreaks from labs.

I also think at the moment based on the ***evidence*** and this has nothing at all to do with China that the virus like many other viruses in the past crossed over from animals into humans. I think it's highly likely the virus started in China via crossing over from animals and China tried to keep it quiet.

I'm just someone who goes off the predominant ***evidence***. It's like the vaccine discussions above. I will trust the reputable source rather than some edge case. If the edge case has ***evidence*** backing it up then cool but if not then I'll stick to what the ***evidence*** shows.

Genuinely not having a crack at you Earl, but you state evidence a lot in your posts. Could you post the evidence that shows that this virus passed from an animal to a human? Im not aware of any and would genuinely be interested in seeing it.

To clarify what I am talking about, we know for sure that SARS COV 1 came directly from bats to humans. The reason that we know this for sure is because Shi Zhengli of the Wuhan Institute of Virology actually tracked down the bats and found that exact virus in them and tested that it transferred to humans. There has not been an animal found in Wuhan or elsewhere with SAR COV2 in it. Not even in the Wet Market and they were tested.

TBH I am surprised China havent just lied and come out and said they found it in the Wet Market, but they havent, maybe because they are still pushing for the "it came from outside China" angle.

They claimed it came from Australian meat imports didn't they?

Thats right they did but its actually impossible and Ill tell you why (its actually pretty integral to the discussion here).....

........WARNING LONGISH SCIENTIFIC RANT FOLLOWING>.........

Viruses are not living things, but they "behave" like they are. They are simply a strip of genetic material (either RNA or DNA) wrapped in fat. Their whole purpose in life (they dont really have a purpose, they are not living creatures but act like they do) is to replicate otherwise they die off and become extinct. They MUST have a host or they die forever.

All viruses rely on mutation to survive. That is that each time they replicate there are small changes in the RNA/DNA code and they may come from the host sometimes and these changes make the virus either more or less likely to find a host and replicate. A change that makes the virus more likely to replicate obviously. Its evolution on a fast track (due to short lifespans and replication rates).

For a zoonotic virus to successful transfer between an animal and humans the virus has to "perform two tricks". The first is that it has to bind to the same receptors in a human as in the host animal. This is dumb luck and this was the case with SARS1 (ACE2 receptors). The second trick is the harder trick and it isnt luck, its a factor of this evolution described above. The second trick a zoonotic virus has to perform to be successful is it has to be effective at spreading between people.

Earl has stated a few times and he is 100% correct that there have been quite a number of zoonotic viruses in the recent past including SARS 1, MERS, Hendra, Zika etc. The reason that all of these viruses didnt turn into a pandemic is that they were not very effective at spreading between people and eventually they die off. This is not dumb luck, its a factor of how many people the virus gets the opportunity to go through and therefore, how many little mutations and variations get to happen as a virus replicates in a person. The longer it is in people in a population, the more revisions and the more likely it is to spread between people.

SARS COV2 (COVID) came out of the gates, HIGHLY contagious, already completely adapted to effective spreading between humans. This is a big part of the thinking behind the lab leak hypothesis. It is not impossible that this could have happened "naturally" in the wild but it would mean that there had to have been a human population somewhere that has had this virus for a long time, long enough for a zoonotic virus to adapt like this, PRIOR to hitting Wuhan with such force. Its not impossible but it is unlikely.

Im not putting forward conspiracy theories, Im merely expanding on some of the science for consideration and discussion. Both the zoonotic and the lab leak hypothesis are live and viable hypothesis and neither have been falsified. Contrary to some opinions, I'm of the opinion that the science actually points away from the animal to human hypothesis.

 

[mike]

Almost reads like something that could have been published in a state sanctioned Chinese newspaper.

I'm not buying that line. I don't think the WHO narrative is a China narrative. I don't think it was ever likely the virus came from a lab. We know that viruses can leak from labs but it was unlikely that was the case this time. I think we already knew it wasn't a man made virus.

I still think labs studying viruses and wet markets or any trade in exotic animals is dangerous.

In stating that viruses do migrate from animals to humans regularly. We've had many pandemics/epidemics in the past that have occurred in this fashion. That is why this is by far the most likely explanation.

It is also hard to pin point exactly where the virus started. The same thing happened in the Spanish Flu outbreak. It probably started in America but I don't think the exact site was ever proven.


It is not the original host (animal) that I have an issue with, it is the suggestion that the virus existed elsewhere in the world and was imported into China via frozen food.

China are always going to say stupid things. I agree that it is highly unlikely it was imported into China.

I think the exotic animal trade is way too risky to continue and this practice is common in China. I also don't like creating these viruses in labs. There have been outbreaks from labs.

I also think at the moment based on the ***evidence*** and this has nothing at all to do with China that the virus like many other viruses in the past crossed over from animals into humans. I think it's highly likely the virus started in China via crossing over from animals and China tried to keep it quiet.

I'm just someone who goes off the predominant ***evidence***. It's like the vaccine discussions above. I will trust the reputable source rather than some edge case. If the edge case has ***evidence*** backing it up then cool but if not then I'll stick to what the ***evidence*** shows.

Genuinely not having a crack at you Earl, but you state evidence a lot in your posts. Could you post the evidence that shows that this virus passed from an animal to a human? Im not aware of any and would genuinely be interested in seeing it.

To clarify what I am talking about, we know for sure that SARS COV 1 came directly from bats to humans. The reason that we know this for sure is because Shi Zhengli of the Wuhan Institute of Virology actually tracked down the bats and found that exact virus in them and tested that it transferred to humans. There has not been an animal found in Wuhan or elsewhere with SAR COV2 in it. Not even in the Wet Market and they were tested.

TBH I am surprised China havent just lied and come out and said they found it in the Wet Market, but they havent, maybe because they are still pushing for the "it came from outside China" angle.

They claimed it came from Australian meat imports didn't they?


Thats right they did but its actually impossible and Ill tell you why (its actually pretty integral to the discussion here).....

........WARNING LONGISH SCIENTIFIC RANT FOLLOWING>.........

Viruses are not living things, but they "behave" like they are. They are simply a strip of genetic material (either RNA or DNA) wrapped in fat. Their whole purpose in life (they dont really have a purpose, they are not living creatures but act like they do) is to replicate otherwise they die off and become extinct. They MUST have a host or they die forever.

All viruses rely on mutation to survive. That is that each time they replicate there are small changes in the RNA/DNA code and they may come from the host sometimes and these changes make the virus either more or less likely to find a host and replicate. A change that makes the virus more likely to replicate obviously. Its evolution on a fast track (due to short lifespans and replication rates).

For a zoonotic virus to successful transfer between an animal and humans the virus has to "perform two tricks". The first is that it has to bind to the same receptors in a human as in the host animal. This is dumb luck and this was the case with SARS1 (ACE2 receptors). The second trick is the harder trick and it isnt luck, its a factor of this evolution described above. The second trick a zoonotic virus has to perform to be successful is it has to be effective at spreading between people.

Earl has stated a few times and he is 100% correct that there have been quite a number of zoonotic viruses in the recent past including SARS 1, MERS, Hendra, Zika etc. The reason that all of these viruses didnt turn into a pandemic is that they were not very effective at spreading between people and eventually they die off. This is not dumb luck, its a factor of how many people the virus gets the opportunity to go through and therefore, how many little mutations and variations get to happen as a virus replicates in a person. The longer it is in people in a population, the more revisions and the more likely it is to spread between people.

SARS COV2 (COVID) came out of the gates, HIGHLY contagious, already completely adapted to effective spreading between humans. This is a big part of the thinking behind the lab leak hypothesis. It is not impossible that this could have happened "naturally" in the wild but it would mean that there had to have been a human population somewhere that has had this virus for a long time, long enough for a zoonotic virus to adapt like this, PRIOR to hitting Wuhan with such force. Its not impossible but it is unlikely.

Im not putting forward conspiracy theories, Im merely expanding on some of the science for consideration and discussion. Both the zoonotic and the lab leak hypothesis are live and viable hypothesis and neither have been falsified. Contrary to some opinions, I'm of the opinion that the science actually points away from the animal to human hypothesis.

Thanks for the explanation, very interesting.

I think we all know where China got the idea that it came from Australian meat imports, right out of their collective behinds.

 

[bathursttiger1]

Almost reads like something that could have been published in a state sanctioned Chinese newspaper.

I'm not buying that line. I don't think the WHO narrative is a China narrative. I don't think it was ever likely the virus came from a lab. We know that viruses can leak from labs but it was unlikely that was the case this time. I think we already knew it wasn't a man made virus.

I still think labs studying viruses and wet markets or any trade in exotic animals is dangerous.

In stating that viruses do migrate from animals to humans regularly. We've had many pandemics/epidemics in the past that have occurred in this fashion. That is why this is by far the most likely explanation.

It is also hard to pin point exactly where the virus started. The same thing happened in the Spanish Flu outbreak. It probably started in America but I don't think the exact site was ever proven.


It is not the original host (animal) that I have an issue with, it is the suggestion that the virus existed elsewhere in the world and was imported into China via frozen food.

China are always going to say stupid things. I agree that it is highly unlikely it was imported into China.

I think the exotic animal trade is way too risky to continue and this practice is common in China. I also don't like creating these viruses in labs. There have been outbreaks from labs.

I also think at the moment based on the evidence and this has nothing at all to do with China that the virus like many other viruses in the past crossed over from animals into humans. I think it's highly likely the virus started in China via crossing over from animals and China tried to keep it quiet.

I'm just someone who goes off the predominant evidence. It's like the vaccine discussions above. I will trust the reputable source rather than some edge case. If the edge case has evidence backing it up then cool but if not then I'll stick to what the evidence shows.

I note that the Australian scientist has backed away from the ridiculous hypothesis that the virus originated elsewhere and was transported to China.

Any consideration of that theory likely evaporated once the plane touched down and he was no longer under threat of detainment and re-education.

I don't believe the WHO are being white washed via China. That Australian scientist speaking up proves my point.

There are lots of possibilities in relation to how the virus came about. There is a difference between possibilities and probabilities and evidence.

We know the virus had some mass spreading events from around Wuhan. I think it's pretty safe to assume it came from there. It also appears the virus spread from animals. Those are the probable scenarios that we have. We shouldn't be sidetracked with the possibilities no matter who is pushing those possibilities unless they have really good evidence.

The WHO are just a pack of lackeys for China

 

[Aesopian]

Almost reads like something that could have been published in a state sanctioned Chinese newspaper.

I'm not buying that line. I don't think the WHO narrative is a China narrative. I don't think it was ever likely the virus came from a lab. We know that viruses can leak from labs but it was unlikely that was the case this time. I think we already knew it wasn't a man made virus.

I still think labs studying viruses and wet markets or any trade in exotic animals is dangerous.

In stating that viruses do migrate from animals to humans regularly. We've had many pandemics/epidemics in the past that have occurred in this fashion. That is why this is by far the most likely explanation.

It is also hard to pin point exactly where the virus started. The same thing happened in the Spanish Flu outbreak. It probably started in America but I don't think the exact site was ever proven.


It is not the original host (animal) that I have an issue with, it is the suggestion that the virus existed elsewhere in the world and was imported into China via frozen food.

China are always going to say stupid things. I agree that it is highly unlikely it was imported into China.

I think the exotic animal trade is way too risky to continue and this practice is common in China. I also don't like creating these viruses in labs. There have been outbreaks from labs.

I also think at the moment based on the ***evidence*** and this has nothing at all to do with China that the virus like many other viruses in the past crossed over from animals into humans. I think it's highly likely the virus started in China via crossing over from animals and China tried to keep it quiet.

I'm just someone who goes off the predominant ***evidence***. It's like the vaccine discussions above. I will trust the reputable source rather than some edge case. If the edge case has ***evidence*** backing it up then cool but if not then I'll stick to what the ***evidence*** shows.

Genuinely not having a crack at you Earl, but you state evidence a lot in your posts. Could you post the evidence that shows that this virus passed from an animal to a human? Im not aware of any and would genuinely be interested in seeing it.

To clarify what I am talking about, we know for sure that SARS COV 1 came directly from bats to humans. The reason that we know this for sure is because Shi Zhengli of the Wuhan Institute of Virology actually tracked down the bats and found that exact virus in them and tested that it transferred to humans. There has not been an animal found in Wuhan or elsewhere with SAR COV2 in it. Not even in the Wet Market and they were tested.

TBH I am surprised China havent just lied and come out and said they found it in the Wet Market, but they havent, maybe because they are still pushing for the "it came from outside China" angle.

Dude, Dominic Dwyer was literally quoted yesterday saying **“the most likely source of the virus was bats, before another animal such as a cat passed it on to humans."**

Now let's see who is more likely to have credible evidence:

1 - Dominic Dwyer, microbiologist and infectious disease expert with NSW health. Evidence gathered through 1st hand experience on the ground in Wuhan.

2 - Random WTF expert, profession unknown. Evidence gathered by browsing the interwebs, finding articles that align with personal bias and passing it off as research.

Close call but I'm leaning towards No.1...

 

[Tiger5150]

Almost reads like something that could have been published in a state sanctioned Chinese newspaper.

I'm not buying that line. I don't think the WHO narrative is a China narrative. I don't think it was ever likely the virus came from a lab. We know that viruses can leak from labs but it was unlikely that was the case this time. I think we already knew it wasn't a man made virus.

I still think labs studying viruses and wet markets or any trade in exotic animals is dangerous.

In stating that viruses do migrate from animals to humans regularly. We've had many pandemics/epidemics in the past that have occurred in this fashion. That is why this is by far the most likely explanation.

It is also hard to pin point exactly where the virus started. The same thing happened in the Spanish Flu outbreak. It probably started in America but I don't think the exact site was ever proven.


It is not the original host (animal) that I have an issue with, it is the suggestion that the virus existed elsewhere in the world and was imported into China via frozen food.

China are always going to say stupid things. I agree that it is highly unlikely it was imported into China.

I think the exotic animal trade is way too risky to continue and this practice is common in China. I also don't like creating these viruses in labs. There have been outbreaks from labs.

I also think at the moment based on the ***evidence*** and this has nothing at all to do with China that the virus like many other viruses in the past crossed over from animals into humans. I think it's highly likely the virus started in China via crossing over from animals and China tried to keep it quiet.

I'm just someone who goes off the predominant ***evidence***. It's like the vaccine discussions above. I will trust the reputable source rather than some edge case. If the edge case has ***evidence*** backing it up then cool but if not then I'll stick to what the ***evidence*** shows.

Genuinely not having a crack at you Earl, but you state evidence a lot in your posts. Could you post the evidence that shows that this virus passed from an animal to a human? Im not aware of any and would genuinely be interested in seeing it.

To clarify what I am talking about, we know for sure that SARS COV 1 came directly from bats to humans. The reason that we know this for sure is because Shi Zhengli of the Wuhan Institute of Virology actually tracked down the bats and found that exact virus in them and tested that it transferred to humans. There has not been an animal found in Wuhan or elsewhere with SAR COV2 in it. Not even in the Wet Market and they were tested.

TBH I am surprised China havent just lied and come out and said they found it in the Wet Market, but they havent, maybe because they are still pushing for the "it came from outside China" angle.

Dude, Dominic Dwyer was literally quoted yesterday saying **“the most likely source of the virus was bats, before another animal such as a cat passed it on to humans."**

Now let's see who is more likely to have credible evidence:

1 - Dominic Dwyer, microbiologist and infectious disease expert with NSW health. Evidence gathered through 1st hand experience on the ground in Wuhan.

2 - Random WTF expert, profession unknown. Evidence gathered by browsing the interwebs, finding articles that align with personal bias and passing it off as research.

Close call but I'm leaning towards No.1...

Relax mate, I clearly stated in my post Im not stating one or the other and specifically stated that that hypothesis is a live and unfalsified hypothesis, just explaining some science as thought for discussion, it wont hurt you.

I am just some dude on a forum, no question and I wouldnt for a second suggest that I am ***proving*** anything. What I said though is factual and accurate and I have a Bachelor and Grad Cert in biological sciences (not that that should be believed and Im not holding it up against Dominic Dwyer or any other published experts.

Dominic Dwyers words are accurate, but they are not evidence. He was also part of the investigation that also looked into the lab leak and that remains a live hypothesis. He is also part of an investigative team that also said they consider it a possibility that it came into China on frozen meat.

Science doesnt work by someone saying something and then working out who has the best credentials. The scientific process involves formulation of hypothesis and then trying to falsify them until only one hypothesis remains not falsified and then that one becomes the theory. No one has proven the animal hypothesis or falsified it. Same with the lab leak hypothesis.

 

[earl]

Almost reads like something that could have been published in a state sanctioned Chinese newspaper.

I'm not buying that line. I don't think the WHO narrative is a China narrative. I don't think it was ever likely the virus came from a lab. We know that viruses can leak from labs but it was unlikely that was the case this time. I think we already knew it wasn't a man made virus.

I still think labs studying viruses and wet markets or any trade in exotic animals is dangerous.

In stating that viruses do migrate from animals to humans regularly. We've had many pandemics/epidemics in the past that have occurred in this fashion. That is why this is by far the most likely explanation.

It is also hard to pin point exactly where the virus started. The same thing happened in the Spanish Flu outbreak. It probably started in America but I don't think the exact site was ever proven.


It is not the original host (animal) that I have an issue with, it is the suggestion that the virus existed elsewhere in the world and was imported into China via frozen food.

China are always going to say stupid things. I agree that it is highly unlikely it was imported into China.

I think the exotic animal trade is way too risky to continue and this practice is common in China. I also don't like creating these viruses in labs. There have been outbreaks from labs.

I also think at the moment based on the ***evidence*** and this has nothing at all to do with China that the virus like many other viruses in the past crossed over from animals into humans. I think it's highly likely the virus started in China via crossing over from animals and China tried to keep it quiet.

I'm just someone who goes off the predominant ***evidence***. It's like the vaccine discussions above. I will trust the reputable source rather than some edge case. If the edge case has ***evidence*** backing it up then cool but if not then I'll stick to what the ***evidence*** shows.

Genuinely not having a crack at you Earl, but you state evidence a lot in your posts. Could you post the evidence that shows that this virus passed from an animal to a human? Im not aware of any and would genuinely be interested in seeing it.

To clarify what I am talking about, we know for sure that SARS COV 1 came directly from bats to humans. The reason that we know this for sure is because Shi Zhengli of the Wuhan Institute of Virology actually tracked down the bats and found that exact virus in them and tested that it transferred to humans. There has not been an animal found in Wuhan or elsewhere with SAR COV2 in it. Not even in the Wet Market and they were tested.

TBH I am surprised China havent just lied and come out and said they found it in the Wet Market, but they havent, maybe because they are still pushing for the "it came from outside China" angle.

Dude, Dominic Dwyer was literally quoted yesterday saying **“the most likely source of the virus was bats, before another animal such as a cat passed it on to humans."**

Now let's see who is more likely to have credible evidence:

1 - Dominic Dwyer, microbiologist and infectious disease expert with NSW health. Evidence gathered through 1st hand experience on the ground in Wuhan.

2 - Random WTF expert, profession unknown. Evidence gathered by browsing the interwebs, finding articles that align with personal bias and passing it off as research.

Close call but I'm leaning towards No.1...

Yep. I'm just going with the consensus opinion at this point in time. If it comes out with evidence the virus came from a lab no problems.

@Tiger5150 - there is no need to debate this topic. You support an edge case which is fine. That might have even happened. I'm just going with the experts on this one. If the experts viewpoint changes I'm happy to change my viewpoint.