Coronavirus Outbreak

[mike]

So are you saying that vaccinated folk don't/can't carry a virus load and transmit it? If so, that would be against every bit of scientific evidence that has been produced on BOTH sides of the debate.

Definitely not. I'm stating that there is a huge amount of evidence that unvaccinated people have a significantly higher viral load.

I wonder how all those folk in the hospitals in Israel that are double and triple jabbed became ill with Covid 19 when the general population fully vaxxed is as high or in most instances, higher
than any country in the world.

This is painting a picture that in my opinion doesn't represent reality. Australia has a higher vaccination rate than Israel plus Israel rolled out the vaccines a lot earlier than Australia did. There is a clear diminution in the effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine over time and therefore the effectiveness has waned in Israel Other countries like Denmark are doing considerably better.

The hospitalization rates in Israel are better than the US and Britain.

Israel is not in my opinion a good example for anti-vaxxers to use.

I don't give a toss whether you are single jabbed, double jabbed or jabbed 1000 times. It's your choice. Just as it should be everybody's choice not to be jabbed without authorities resorting to coercion, threats or being treated as second class citizens. What we have happening is nothing short of medical apartheid.

I don't believe this at all. You can call it that but the counter argument is seatbelts or passive smoking. You can't have a different principle for COVID compared to these other examples unless your argument is intellectually dishonest.

Also they are going to let unvaccinated do whatever they want really really soon. In my opinion that is way too early but I'll live with it.

And most concerning of all is that alternated points of view, alternate information from scientists, doctors and health professionals is being heavily censored.
Facebook is delisting people who have the audacity to quote figures on adverse affects, that appear on the CDC website for goodness sake!
Anyway, I realise I am probably pissing into the wind posting this, but all I ask is that people consider that not everything is as you are being told by MSM, mainstream social media, and Govt organisations. Far from it. But of course finding alternate information now requires a little bit of work on your behalf because of the censorship.
There are plenty of good and informative groups on Telegram. (Yes, there's a lot of crap too). You might like to try there if you have any interest.

I have researched COVID considerably. I use massive data-sets and good quality scientific papers. There is no way in all hell that I would trust any of the groups that you recommend.

I have really high standards in relation to what I constitute facts and I have yet to hear a single rational coherent argument not to get vaccinated. I have also not seen any data that gives any credence to any anti-vaccine argument and this is the best data-set I have ever seen in my life in relation to quality data and I've worked with data my whole career.

If you have any quality scientific papers with massive data-sets that can disprove the massive high quality studies than I've seen I will change my reasoned opinion immediately, The big question is if there are massive data-sets with quality data that prove conclusively that vaccines are highly effective will you change your mind ?

Thanks for your reasoned response Earl. I welcome debate that is honest. Re data sets. I believe Dr. Pierre Cory has probably the most authentic meta data on the manifold trials using alternate, inexpensive, safe, medicines that are already approved. The data he has would beg the question as to whether the jabs are actually necessary. And I don't know where you are getting your data sets from regarding vaccinated Vs unvaccinated so I can't obviously comment. I do, however, pay close attention to the number of adverse affects that are being reported via VAERS and the Yellow Card program in Europe. I know first hand from nurses in our local hospital ED that the numbers of patients coming in with chest pain etc post vaccination is alarming. And these incidents are generally not being reported. This is first hand knowledge, Earl (I used to work with these nurses).
So would I take the jab? No I wouldn't. Why? Several reasons: I have a fully functioning natural immune system that serves me extremely well. Covid 19 is survivable in over 99% of instances if you are under 70 years of age without ANY medication, let alone with early treatment with some of the alternative protocols utilising well tested, safe medicines that have been around for decades. The PCR test being used to diagnose Covid 19 is not fit for purpose. It was never designed to be used as a diagnostic test, and when used at 40+ cycles, (which is the case here in Australia), will provide between 80 and 90 percent false positives. The PCR test cannot differentiate between corona viruses be it a common cold or SARS to name a couple. To accurately determine one from another requires gene sequencing. (The problem is, the SARS-Cov-2 virus has not been isolated from a living human being and the complete genomic sequence of the SARS-Cov-2 virus has been constructed via computer modelling from small portions of nRMA). So a positive PCR test is not in anyway accurate in determining whether you actually have Covid 19.
Re your comment about seat belts and passive smoking.
I actually don't believe that an informed adult should be required to wear a seat belt if they choose not to. Everyone knows the dangers of not using one. Personally I would always choose to even if it wasn't required by law. Passive smoking? I'm not sure how that comes into the discussion really. Clearly passive smoking is dangerous to everyone. The science is pretty clear and proven. I don't believe the science in the instance of non vaccinated folk being a danger to the vaccinated is at all clear or proven. So I don't accept that.
The last thing I would ask is that you stop calling everyone who chooses not to get jabbed an anti vaxxer. It is lazy and it is inaccurate.
I am not an anti vaxxer. I have had a number of vaccines - real vaccines (not this **gene therapy** that is still in trial mode). If I step on a rusty nail, I take myself off to get a Boostrex. I have had a Hep C vaccine when I worked at the hospital. These precautions in my analysis are justified.
Personally, I don't believe these Covid jabs are. However, I appreciate that others have differing opinions and I am perfectly fine with that.

None of the vaccines available in Australia are gene therapy. They don’t alter your genes.

This is correct

The vaccines maybe still be in longitudinal trials but the reality is ***if you haven’t shown any adverse reactions by two months down the track after your jab you are not going to.*** The longitudinal trials won’t tell us anything about adverse reactions we don’t already know about the vaccines. The history of these types of trials tell us this.


**This is incorrect**. When I had my MMR vaccination, it contained Mercury. Why does it no longer contain Mercury?


The VEARS reporting process reports any illness or death, even if the death is due to an accident like a car crash. If the follow up investigation rules out vaccine related injury the report remains on the database.

This is true and is the obvious shortfall of the database, but where is the alternative. What other database is there to determine if the vaccine (or any vaccine/drug is causing adverse reactions. Its all weel and good to say some car crashes might be wrapped up in there, but what is the percentage. There is a percentage of the deaths/advers reactions on the VEARS database that ARE due to the vaccine. All I ever see is anti vaxxers yelling "Look at VEARS!!!" and pro vaxxers making he car crash case. It leaves in the middle the fact that there is a number and percentage of actual adverse reactions that are not accounted. Might be not many, night be a lot.
>

Sorry but this is correct. The removal of mercury from MMR was due to pressure by people claiming it caused autism. Mainly the Hg based preservative thimerosal. This was more a PR exercise to relax the anxiety of the public over the ‘autism epidemic’. In the end there is no link between vaccines and autism, never was. The removal was an evaluation of a theoretical risk, not an actual risk. Again if you haven’t had an adverse reaction after a couple of months you are not going to. The history of vaccinations tells us this.

Nothing to do with autism. Mercury is a systemic and endemic poison that is cumulative and never leaves your body. Mercury accumulates and at a critical level will cause serious problems. It is a good idea to remove Mercury from anything that goes in your body.

It’s all about dose. A theoretical risk only that never eventuated. Like you said you had vaccines with mercury in it as did I and I would suggest neither of us has suffered as a result. I cannot find any source where anyone else has actually had an effect. Like I said if you haven’t had an adverse reaction after two months you are not going to. The whole history of vaccinations is on my side.

 

[Tiger5150]

So are you saying that vaccinated folk don't/can't carry a virus load and transmit it? If so, that would be against every bit of scientific evidence that has been produced on BOTH sides of the debate.

Definitely not. I'm stating that there is a huge amount of evidence that unvaccinated people have a significantly higher viral load.

I wonder how all those folk in the hospitals in Israel that are double and triple jabbed became ill with Covid 19 when the general population fully vaxxed is as high or in most instances, higher
than any country in the world.

This is painting a picture that in my opinion doesn't represent reality. Australia has a higher vaccination rate than Israel plus Israel rolled out the vaccines a lot earlier than Australia did. There is a clear diminution in the effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine over time and therefore the effectiveness has waned in Israel Other countries like Denmark are doing considerably better.

The hospitalization rates in Israel are better than the US and Britain.

Israel is not in my opinion a good example for anti-vaxxers to use.

I don't give a toss whether you are single jabbed, double jabbed or jabbed 1000 times. It's your choice. Just as it should be everybody's choice not to be jabbed without authorities resorting to coercion, threats or being treated as second class citizens. What we have happening is nothing short of medical apartheid.

I don't believe this at all. You can call it that but the counter argument is seatbelts or passive smoking. You can't have a different principle for COVID compared to these other examples unless your argument is intellectually dishonest.

Also they are going to let unvaccinated do whatever they want really really soon. In my opinion that is way too early but I'll live with it.

And most concerning of all is that alternated points of view, alternate information from scientists, doctors and health professionals is being heavily censored.
Facebook is delisting people who have the audacity to quote figures on adverse affects, that appear on the CDC website for goodness sake!
Anyway, I realise I am probably pissing into the wind posting this, but all I ask is that people consider that not everything is as you are being told by MSM, mainstream social media, and Govt organisations. Far from it. But of course finding alternate information now requires a little bit of work on your behalf because of the censorship.
There are plenty of good and informative groups on Telegram. (Yes, there's a lot of crap too). You might like to try there if you have any interest.

I have researched COVID considerably. I use massive data-sets and good quality scientific papers. There is no way in all hell that I would trust any of the groups that you recommend.

I have really high standards in relation to what I constitute facts and I have yet to hear a single rational coherent argument not to get vaccinated. I have also not seen any data that gives any credence to any anti-vaccine argument and this is the best data-set I have ever seen in my life in relation to quality data and I've worked with data my whole career.

If you have any quality scientific papers with massive data-sets that can disprove the massive high quality studies than I've seen I will change my reasoned opinion immediately, The big question is if there are massive data-sets with quality data that prove conclusively that vaccines are highly effective will you change your mind ?

Thanks for your reasoned response Earl. I welcome debate that is honest. Re data sets. I believe Dr. Pierre Cory has probably the most authentic meta data on the manifold trials using alternate, inexpensive, safe, medicines that are already approved. The data he has would beg the question as to whether the jabs are actually necessary. And I don't know where you are getting your data sets from regarding vaccinated Vs unvaccinated so I can't obviously comment. I do, however, pay close attention to the number of adverse affects that are being reported via VAERS and the Yellow Card program in Europe. I know first hand from nurses in our local hospital ED that the numbers of patients coming in with chest pain etc post vaccination is alarming. And these incidents are generally not being reported. This is first hand knowledge, Earl (I used to work with these nurses).
So would I take the jab? No I wouldn't. Why? Several reasons: I have a fully functioning natural immune system that serves me extremely well. Covid 19 is survivable in over 99% of instances if you are under 70 years of age without ANY medication, let alone with early treatment with some of the alternative protocols utilising well tested, safe medicines that have been around for decades. The PCR test being used to diagnose Covid 19 is not fit for purpose. It was never designed to be used as a diagnostic test, and when used at 40+ cycles, (which is the case here in Australia), will provide between 80 and 90 percent false positives. The PCR test cannot differentiate between corona viruses be it a common cold or SARS to name a couple. To accurately determine one from another requires gene sequencing. (The problem is, the SARS-Cov-2 virus has not been isolated from a living human being and the complete genomic sequence of the SARS-Cov-2 virus has been constructed via computer modelling from small portions of nRMA). So a positive PCR test is not in anyway accurate in determining whether you actually have Covid 19.
Re your comment about seat belts and passive smoking.
I actually don't believe that an informed adult should be required to wear a seat belt if they choose not to. Everyone knows the dangers of not using one. Personally I would always choose to even if it wasn't required by law. Passive smoking? I'm not sure how that comes into the discussion really. Clearly passive smoking is dangerous to everyone. The science is pretty clear and proven. I don't believe the science in the instance of non vaccinated folk being a danger to the vaccinated is at all clear or proven. So I don't accept that.
The last thing I would ask is that you stop calling everyone who chooses not to get jabbed an anti vaxxer. It is lazy and it is inaccurate.
I am not an anti vaxxer. I have had a number of vaccines - real vaccines (not this **gene therapy** that is still in trial mode). If I step on a rusty nail, I take myself off to get a Boostrex. I have had a Hep C vaccine when I worked at the hospital. These precautions in my analysis are justified.
Personally, I don't believe these Covid jabs are. However, I appreciate that others have differing opinions and I am perfectly fine with that.

None of the vaccines available in Australia are gene therapy. They don’t alter your genes.

This is correct

The vaccines maybe still be in longitudinal trials but the reality is ***if you haven’t shown any adverse reactions by two months down the track after your jab you are not going to.*** The longitudinal trials won’t tell us anything about adverse reactions we don’t already know about the vaccines. The history of these types of trials tell us this.


**This is incorrect**. When I had my MMR vaccination, it contained Mercury. Why does it no longer contain Mercury?


The VEARS reporting process reports any illness or death, even if the death is due to an accident like a car crash. If the follow up investigation rules out vaccine related injury the report remains on the database.

This is true and is the obvious shortfall of the database, but where is the alternative. What other database is there to determine if the vaccine (or any vaccine/drug is causing adverse reactions. Its all weel and good to say some car crashes might be wrapped up in there, but what is the percentage. There is a percentage of the deaths/advers reactions on the VEARS database that ARE due to the vaccine. All I ever see is anti vaxxers yelling "Look at VEARS!!!" and pro vaxxers making he car crash case. It leaves in the middle the fact that there is a number and percentage of actual adverse reactions that are not accounted. Might be not many, night be a lot.
>

Sorry but this is correct. The removal of mercury from MMR was due to pressure by people claiming it caused autism. Mainly the Hg based preservative thimerosal. This was more a PR exercise to relax the anxiety of the public over the ‘autism epidemic’. In the end there is no link between vaccines and autism, never was. The removal was an evaluation of a theoretical risk, not an actual risk. Again if you haven’t had an adverse reaction after a couple of months you are not going to. The history of vaccinations tells us this.

Nothing to do with autism. Mercury is a systemic and endemic poison that is cumulative and never leaves your body. Mercury accumulates and at a critical level will cause serious problems. It is a good idea to remove Mercury from anything that goes in your body.

It’s all about dose. A theoretical risk only that never eventuated. Like you said you had vaccines with mercury in it as did I and I would suggest neither of us has suffered as a result. I cannot find any source where anyone else has actually had an effect. Like I said if you haven’t had an adverse reaction after two months you are not going to. The whole history of vaccinations is on my side.

Im double vaxxed and all my family is as well.

Talking about the "whole history" of vaccines when discussing an mRNA vaccine is like talking about the safety of steam trains vs civilian space travel. The mRNA vaccines do not work like the "whole history" of vaccines. That doesnt mean they will be better or worse. It means there is no comparison. Its simply a fact. There is a TON of data now about the short term safety of the vaccines, none about long term.

 

[mike]

So are you saying that vaccinated folk don't/can't carry a virus load and transmit it? If so, that would be against every bit of scientific evidence that has been produced on BOTH sides of the debate.

Definitely not. I'm stating that there is a huge amount of evidence that unvaccinated people have a significantly higher viral load.

I wonder how all those folk in the hospitals in Israel that are double and triple jabbed became ill with Covid 19 when the general population fully vaxxed is as high or in most instances, higher
than any country in the world.

This is painting a picture that in my opinion doesn't represent reality. Australia has a higher vaccination rate than Israel plus Israel rolled out the vaccines a lot earlier than Australia did. There is a clear diminution in the effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine over time and therefore the effectiveness has waned in Israel Other countries like Denmark are doing considerably better.

The hospitalization rates in Israel are better than the US and Britain.

Israel is not in my opinion a good example for anti-vaxxers to use.

I don't give a toss whether you are single jabbed, double jabbed or jabbed 1000 times. It's your choice. Just as it should be everybody's choice not to be jabbed without authorities resorting to coercion, threats or being treated as second class citizens. What we have happening is nothing short of medical apartheid.

I don't believe this at all. You can call it that but the counter argument is seatbelts or passive smoking. You can't have a different principle for COVID compared to these other examples unless your argument is intellectually dishonest.

Also they are going to let unvaccinated do whatever they want really really soon. In my opinion that is way too early but I'll live with it.

And most concerning of all is that alternated points of view, alternate information from scientists, doctors and health professionals is being heavily censored.
Facebook is delisting people who have the audacity to quote figures on adverse affects, that appear on the CDC website for goodness sake!
Anyway, I realise I am probably pissing into the wind posting this, but all I ask is that people consider that not everything is as you are being told by MSM, mainstream social media, and Govt organisations. Far from it. But of course finding alternate information now requires a little bit of work on your behalf because of the censorship.
There are plenty of good and informative groups on Telegram. (Yes, there's a lot of crap too). You might like to try there if you have any interest.

I have researched COVID considerably. I use massive data-sets and good quality scientific papers. There is no way in all hell that I would trust any of the groups that you recommend.

I have really high standards in relation to what I constitute facts and I have yet to hear a single rational coherent argument not to get vaccinated. I have also not seen any data that gives any credence to any anti-vaccine argument and this is the best data-set I have ever seen in my life in relation to quality data and I've worked with data my whole career.

If you have any quality scientific papers with massive data-sets that can disprove the massive high quality studies than I've seen I will change my reasoned opinion immediately, The big question is if there are massive data-sets with quality data that prove conclusively that vaccines are highly effective will you change your mind ?

Thanks for your reasoned response Earl. I welcome debate that is honest. Re data sets. I believe Dr. Pierre Cory has probably the most authentic meta data on the manifold trials using alternate, inexpensive, safe, medicines that are already approved. The data he has would beg the question as to whether the jabs are actually necessary. And I don't know where you are getting your data sets from regarding vaccinated Vs unvaccinated so I can't obviously comment. I do, however, pay close attention to the number of adverse affects that are being reported via VAERS and the Yellow Card program in Europe. I know first hand from nurses in our local hospital ED that the numbers of patients coming in with chest pain etc post vaccination is alarming. And these incidents are generally not being reported. This is first hand knowledge, Earl (I used to work with these nurses).
So would I take the jab? No I wouldn't. Why? Several reasons: I have a fully functioning natural immune system that serves me extremely well. Covid 19 is survivable in over 99% of instances if you are under 70 years of age without ANY medication, let alone with early treatment with some of the alternative protocols utilising well tested, safe medicines that have been around for decades. The PCR test being used to diagnose Covid 19 is not fit for purpose. It was never designed to be used as a diagnostic test, and when used at 40+ cycles, (which is the case here in Australia), will provide between 80 and 90 percent false positives. The PCR test cannot differentiate between corona viruses be it a common cold or SARS to name a couple. To accurately determine one from another requires gene sequencing. (The problem is, the SARS-Cov-2 virus has not been isolated from a living human being and the complete genomic sequence of the SARS-Cov-2 virus has been constructed via computer modelling from small portions of nRMA). So a positive PCR test is not in anyway accurate in determining whether you actually have Covid 19.
Re your comment about seat belts and passive smoking.
I actually don't believe that an informed adult should be required to wear a seat belt if they choose not to. Everyone knows the dangers of not using one. Personally I would always choose to even if it wasn't required by law. Passive smoking? I'm not sure how that comes into the discussion really. Clearly passive smoking is dangerous to everyone. The science is pretty clear and proven. I don't believe the science in the instance of non vaccinated folk being a danger to the vaccinated is at all clear or proven. So I don't accept that.
The last thing I would ask is that you stop calling everyone who chooses not to get jabbed an anti vaxxer. It is lazy and it is inaccurate.
I am not an anti vaxxer. I have had a number of vaccines - real vaccines (not this **gene therapy** that is still in trial mode). If I step on a rusty nail, I take myself off to get a Boostrex. I have had a Hep C vaccine when I worked at the hospital. These precautions in my analysis are justified.
Personally, I don't believe these Covid jabs are. However, I appreciate that others have differing opinions and I am perfectly fine with that.

None of the vaccines available in Australia are gene therapy. They don’t alter your genes.

This is correct

The vaccines maybe still be in longitudinal trials but the reality is ***if you haven’t shown any adverse reactions by two months down the track after your jab you are not going to.*** The longitudinal trials won’t tell us anything about adverse reactions we don’t already know about the vaccines. The history of these types of trials tell us this.


**This is incorrect**. When I had my MMR vaccination, it contained Mercury. Why does it no longer contain Mercury?


The VEARS reporting process reports any illness or death, even if the death is due to an accident like a car crash. If the follow up investigation rules out vaccine related injury the report remains on the database.

This is true and is the obvious shortfall of the database, but where is the alternative. What other database is there to determine if the vaccine (or any vaccine/drug is causing adverse reactions. Its all weel and good to say some car crashes might be wrapped up in there, but what is the percentage. There is a percentage of the deaths/advers reactions on the VEARS database that ARE due to the vaccine. All I ever see is anti vaxxers yelling "Look at VEARS!!!" and pro vaxxers making he car crash case. It leaves in the middle the fact that there is a number and percentage of actual adverse reactions that are not accounted. Might be not many, night be a lot.
>

Sorry but this is correct. The removal of mercury from MMR was due to pressure by people claiming it caused autism. Mainly the Hg based preservative thimerosal. This was more a PR exercise to relax the anxiety of the public over the ‘autism epidemic’. In the end there is no link between vaccines and autism, never was. The removal was an evaluation of a theoretical risk, not an actual risk. Again if you haven’t had an adverse reaction after a couple of months you are not going to. The history of vaccinations tells us this.

Nothing to do with autism. Mercury is a systemic and endemic poison that is cumulative and never leaves your body. Mercury accumulates and at a critical level will cause serious problems. It is a good idea to remove Mercury from anything that goes in your body.

It’s all about dose. A theoretical risk only that never eventuated. Like you said you had vaccines with mercury in it as did I and I would suggest neither of us has suffered as a result. I cannot find any source where anyone else has actually had an effect. Like I said if you haven’t had an adverse reaction after two months you are not going to. The whole history of vaccinations is on my side.

Im double vaxxed and all my family is as well.

Talking about the "whole history" of vaccines when discussing an mRNA vaccine is like talking about the safety of steam trains vs civilian space travel. The mRNA vaccines do not work like the "whole history" of vaccines. That doesnt mean they will be better or worse. It means there is no comparison. Its simply a fact. There is a TON of data now about the short term safety of the vaccines, none about long term.

The mRNA vaccines are still vaccines. They don’t stay in you system for very long, past a few weeks at most. All they do is prime your immune system. It’s your immune system that attacks any invading virus. The mRNA vaccines don’t alter your DNA as you have already acknowledged and they don’t replicate. We have now had literally billions of does given. We already know the adverse effects. What we don’t know is how long the immune system remembers, and how often we may need another jab. That’s where the longitudinal studies come in.

 

[Tiger5150]

So are you saying that vaccinated folk don't/can't carry a virus load and transmit it? If so, that would be against every bit of scientific evidence that has been produced on BOTH sides of the debate.

Definitely not. I'm stating that there is a huge amount of evidence that unvaccinated people have a significantly higher viral load.

I wonder how all those folk in the hospitals in Israel that are double and triple jabbed became ill with Covid 19 when the general population fully vaxxed is as high or in most instances, higher
than any country in the world.

This is painting a picture that in my opinion doesn't represent reality. Australia has a higher vaccination rate than Israel plus Israel rolled out the vaccines a lot earlier than Australia did. There is a clear diminution in the effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine over time and therefore the effectiveness has waned in Israel Other countries like Denmark are doing considerably better.

The hospitalization rates in Israel are better than the US and Britain.

Israel is not in my opinion a good example for anti-vaxxers to use.

I don't give a toss whether you are single jabbed, double jabbed or jabbed 1000 times. It's your choice. Just as it should be everybody's choice not to be jabbed without authorities resorting to coercion, threats or being treated as second class citizens. What we have happening is nothing short of medical apartheid.

I don't believe this at all. You can call it that but the counter argument is seatbelts or passive smoking. You can't have a different principle for COVID compared to these other examples unless your argument is intellectually dishonest.

Also they are going to let unvaccinated do whatever they want really really soon. In my opinion that is way too early but I'll live with it.

And most concerning of all is that alternated points of view, alternate information from scientists, doctors and health professionals is being heavily censored.
Facebook is delisting people who have the audacity to quote figures on adverse affects, that appear on the CDC website for goodness sake!
Anyway, I realise I am probably pissing into the wind posting this, but all I ask is that people consider that not everything is as you are being told by MSM, mainstream social media, and Govt organisations. Far from it. But of course finding alternate information now requires a little bit of work on your behalf because of the censorship.
There are plenty of good and informative groups on Telegram. (Yes, there's a lot of crap too). You might like to try there if you have any interest.

I have researched COVID considerably. I use massive data-sets and good quality scientific papers. There is no way in all hell that I would trust any of the groups that you recommend.

I have really high standards in relation to what I constitute facts and I have yet to hear a single rational coherent argument not to get vaccinated. I have also not seen any data that gives any credence to any anti-vaccine argument and this is the best data-set I have ever seen in my life in relation to quality data and I've worked with data my whole career.

If you have any quality scientific papers with massive data-sets that can disprove the massive high quality studies than I've seen I will change my reasoned opinion immediately, The big question is if there are massive data-sets with quality data that prove conclusively that vaccines are highly effective will you change your mind ?

Thanks for your reasoned response Earl. I welcome debate that is honest. Re data sets. I believe Dr. Pierre Cory has probably the most authentic meta data on the manifold trials using alternate, inexpensive, safe, medicines that are already approved. The data he has would beg the question as to whether the jabs are actually necessary. And I don't know where you are getting your data sets from regarding vaccinated Vs unvaccinated so I can't obviously comment. I do, however, pay close attention to the number of adverse affects that are being reported via VAERS and the Yellow Card program in Europe. I know first hand from nurses in our local hospital ED that the numbers of patients coming in with chest pain etc post vaccination is alarming. And these incidents are generally not being reported. This is first hand knowledge, Earl (I used to work with these nurses).
So would I take the jab? No I wouldn't. Why? Several reasons: I have a fully functioning natural immune system that serves me extremely well. Covid 19 is survivable in over 99% of instances if you are under 70 years of age without ANY medication, let alone with early treatment with some of the alternative protocols utilising well tested, safe medicines that have been around for decades. The PCR test being used to diagnose Covid 19 is not fit for purpose. It was never designed to be used as a diagnostic test, and when used at 40+ cycles, (which is the case here in Australia), will provide between 80 and 90 percent false positives. The PCR test cannot differentiate between corona viruses be it a common cold or SARS to name a couple. To accurately determine one from another requires gene sequencing. (The problem is, the SARS-Cov-2 virus has not been isolated from a living human being and the complete genomic sequence of the SARS-Cov-2 virus has been constructed via computer modelling from small portions of nRMA). So a positive PCR test is not in anyway accurate in determining whether you actually have Covid 19.
Re your comment about seat belts and passive smoking.
I actually don't believe that an informed adult should be required to wear a seat belt if they choose not to. Everyone knows the dangers of not using one. Personally I would always choose to even if it wasn't required by law. Passive smoking? I'm not sure how that comes into the discussion really. Clearly passive smoking is dangerous to everyone. The science is pretty clear and proven. I don't believe the science in the instance of non vaccinated folk being a danger to the vaccinated is at all clear or proven. So I don't accept that.
The last thing I would ask is that you stop calling everyone who chooses not to get jabbed an anti vaxxer. It is lazy and it is inaccurate.
I am not an anti vaxxer. I have had a number of vaccines - real vaccines (not this **gene therapy** that is still in trial mode). If I step on a rusty nail, I take myself off to get a Boostrex. I have had a Hep C vaccine when I worked at the hospital. These precautions in my analysis are justified.
Personally, I don't believe these Covid jabs are. However, I appreciate that others have differing opinions and I am perfectly fine with that.

None of the vaccines available in Australia are gene therapy. They don’t alter your genes.

This is correct

The vaccines maybe still be in longitudinal trials but the reality is ***if you haven’t shown any adverse reactions by two months down the track after your jab you are not going to.*** The longitudinal trials won’t tell us anything about adverse reactions we don’t already know about the vaccines. The history of these types of trials tell us this.


**This is incorrect**. When I had my MMR vaccination, it contained Mercury. Why does it no longer contain Mercury?


The VEARS reporting process reports any illness or death, even if the death is due to an accident like a car crash. If the follow up investigation rules out vaccine related injury the report remains on the database.

This is true and is the obvious shortfall of the database, but where is the alternative. What other database is there to determine if the vaccine (or any vaccine/drug is causing adverse reactions. Its all weel and good to say some car crashes might be wrapped up in there, but what is the percentage. There is a percentage of the deaths/advers reactions on the VEARS database that ARE due to the vaccine. All I ever see is anti vaxxers yelling "Look at VEARS!!!" and pro vaxxers making he car crash case. It leaves in the middle the fact that there is a number and percentage of actual adverse reactions that are not accounted. Might be not many, night be a lot.
>

Sorry but this is correct. The removal of mercury from MMR was due to pressure by people claiming it caused autism. Mainly the Hg based preservative thimerosal. This was more a PR exercise to relax the anxiety of the public over the ‘autism epidemic’. In the end there is no link between vaccines and autism, never was. The removal was an evaluation of a theoretical risk, not an actual risk. Again if you haven’t had an adverse reaction after a couple of months you are not going to. The history of vaccinations tells us this.

Nothing to do with autism. Mercury is a systemic and endemic poison that is cumulative and never leaves your body. Mercury accumulates and at a critical level will cause serious problems. It is a good idea to remove Mercury from anything that goes in your body.

It’s all about dose. A theoretical risk only that never eventuated. Like you said you had vaccines with mercury in it as did I and I would suggest neither of us has suffered as a result. I cannot find any source where anyone else has actually had an effect. Like I said if you haven’t had an adverse reaction after two months you are not going to. The whole history of vaccinations is on my side.

Im double vaxxed and all my family is as well.

Talking about the "whole history" of vaccines when discussing an mRNA vaccine is like talking about the safety of steam trains vs civilian space travel. The mRNA vaccines do not work like the "whole history" of vaccines. That doesnt mean they will be better or worse. It means there is no comparison. Its simply a fact. There is a TON of data now about the short term safety of the vaccines, none about long term.

The mRNA vaccines are still vaccines. They don’t stay in you system for very long, past a few weeks at most. All they do is prime your immune system. It’s your immune system that attacks any invading virus. The mRNA vaccines don’t alter your DNA as you have already acknowledged and they don’t replicate. We have now had literally billions of does given. We already know the adverse effects. What we don’t know is how long the immune system remembers, and how often we may need another jab. That’s where the longitudinal studies come in.

Seriously Mike it is seriously steam trains v civilian space flight. Despite the fact that the are both called "Vaccines" (there is an argument that the COVID vaccine should be called prophylactic not vaccine) there is zero similarity between the two mechanisms of action. Traditional vaccines typically contain a denatured version of the virus and the bodies immune system recognises the protein as foreign, attacks it and remembers it. The Pfizer/Moderna mRNA enters your healthy cells, the RNA actively entrers the cytoplasm and then "tricks" the healthy cell into producing the S1 protein...from the healthy normal cell and then the immune system attacks that S1 protein and "hopefully" remembers it but as you note, it seems it may forget.

Im NOT saying that the vaccine is unsafe at all. There is an unbelievable amount of data on the safety of the vaccine in the short term. As you said, there simply is no longitudinal data and therefore no long term data on an almost completely novel technology.

 

[mike]

So are you saying that vaccinated folk don't/can't carry a virus load and transmit it? If so, that would be against every bit of scientific evidence that has been produced on BOTH sides of the debate.

Definitely not. I'm stating that there is a huge amount of evidence that unvaccinated people have a significantly higher viral load.

I wonder how all those folk in the hospitals in Israel that are double and triple jabbed became ill with Covid 19 when the general population fully vaxxed is as high or in most instances, higher
than any country in the world.

This is painting a picture that in my opinion doesn't represent reality. Australia has a higher vaccination rate than Israel plus Israel rolled out the vaccines a lot earlier than Australia did. There is a clear diminution in the effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine over time and therefore the effectiveness has waned in Israel Other countries like Denmark are doing considerably better.

The hospitalization rates in Israel are better than the US and Britain.

Israel is not in my opinion a good example for anti-vaxxers to use.

I don't give a toss whether you are single jabbed, double jabbed or jabbed 1000 times. It's your choice. Just as it should be everybody's choice not to be jabbed without authorities resorting to coercion, threats or being treated as second class citizens. What we have happening is nothing short of medical apartheid.

I don't believe this at all. You can call it that but the counter argument is seatbelts or passive smoking. You can't have a different principle for COVID compared to these other examples unless your argument is intellectually dishonest.

Also they are going to let unvaccinated do whatever they want really really soon. In my opinion that is way too early but I'll live with it.

And most concerning of all is that alternated points of view, alternate information from scientists, doctors and health professionals is being heavily censored.
Facebook is delisting people who have the audacity to quote figures on adverse affects, that appear on the CDC website for goodness sake!
Anyway, I realise I am probably pissing into the wind posting this, but all I ask is that people consider that not everything is as you are being told by MSM, mainstream social media, and Govt organisations. Far from it. But of course finding alternate information now requires a little bit of work on your behalf because of the censorship.
There are plenty of good and informative groups on Telegram. (Yes, there's a lot of crap too). You might like to try there if you have any interest.

I have researched COVID considerably. I use massive data-sets and good quality scientific papers. There is no way in all hell that I would trust any of the groups that you recommend.

I have really high standards in relation to what I constitute facts and I have yet to hear a single rational coherent argument not to get vaccinated. I have also not seen any data that gives any credence to any anti-vaccine argument and this is the best data-set I have ever seen in my life in relation to quality data and I've worked with data my whole career.

If you have any quality scientific papers with massive data-sets that can disprove the massive high quality studies than I've seen I will change my reasoned opinion immediately, The big question is if there are massive data-sets with quality data that prove conclusively that vaccines are highly effective will you change your mind ?

Thanks for your reasoned response Earl. I welcome debate that is honest. Re data sets. I believe Dr. Pierre Cory has probably the most authentic meta data on the manifold trials using alternate, inexpensive, safe, medicines that are already approved. The data he has would beg the question as to whether the jabs are actually necessary. And I don't know where you are getting your data sets from regarding vaccinated Vs unvaccinated so I can't obviously comment. I do, however, pay close attention to the number of adverse affects that are being reported via VAERS and the Yellow Card program in Europe. I know first hand from nurses in our local hospital ED that the numbers of patients coming in with chest pain etc post vaccination is alarming. And these incidents are generally not being reported. This is first hand knowledge, Earl (I used to work with these nurses).
So would I take the jab? No I wouldn't. Why? Several reasons: I have a fully functioning natural immune system that serves me extremely well. Covid 19 is survivable in over 99% of instances if you are under 70 years of age without ANY medication, let alone with early treatment with some of the alternative protocols utilising well tested, safe medicines that have been around for decades. The PCR test being used to diagnose Covid 19 is not fit for purpose. It was never designed to be used as a diagnostic test, and when used at 40+ cycles, (which is the case here in Australia), will provide between 80 and 90 percent false positives. The PCR test cannot differentiate between corona viruses be it a common cold or SARS to name a couple. To accurately determine one from another requires gene sequencing. (The problem is, the SARS-Cov-2 virus has not been isolated from a living human being and the complete genomic sequence of the SARS-Cov-2 virus has been constructed via computer modelling from small portions of nRMA). So a positive PCR test is not in anyway accurate in determining whether you actually have Covid 19.
Re your comment about seat belts and passive smoking.
I actually don't believe that an informed adult should be required to wear a seat belt if they choose not to. Everyone knows the dangers of not using one. Personally I would always choose to even if it wasn't required by law. Passive smoking? I'm not sure how that comes into the discussion really. Clearly passive smoking is dangerous to everyone. The science is pretty clear and proven. I don't believe the science in the instance of non vaccinated folk being a danger to the vaccinated is at all clear or proven. So I don't accept that.
The last thing I would ask is that you stop calling everyone who chooses not to get jabbed an anti vaxxer. It is lazy and it is inaccurate.
I am not an anti vaxxer. I have had a number of vaccines - real vaccines (not this **gene therapy** that is still in trial mode). If I step on a rusty nail, I take myself off to get a Boostrex. I have had a Hep C vaccine when I worked at the hospital. These precautions in my analysis are justified.
Personally, I don't believe these Covid jabs are. However, I appreciate that others have differing opinions and I am perfectly fine with that.

None of the vaccines available in Australia are gene therapy. They don’t alter your genes.

This is correct

The vaccines maybe still be in longitudinal trials but the reality is ***if you haven’t shown any adverse reactions by two months down the track after your jab you are not going to.*** The longitudinal trials won’t tell us anything about adverse reactions we don’t already know about the vaccines. The history of these types of trials tell us this.


**This is incorrect**. When I had my MMR vaccination, it contained Mercury. Why does it no longer contain Mercury?


The VEARS reporting process reports any illness or death, even if the death is due to an accident like a car crash. If the follow up investigation rules out vaccine related injury the report remains on the database.

This is true and is the obvious shortfall of the database, but where is the alternative. What other database is there to determine if the vaccine (or any vaccine/drug is causing adverse reactions. Its all weel and good to say some car crashes might be wrapped up in there, but what is the percentage. There is a percentage of the deaths/advers reactions on the VEARS database that ARE due to the vaccine. All I ever see is anti vaxxers yelling "Look at VEARS!!!" and pro vaxxers making he car crash case. It leaves in the middle the fact that there is a number and percentage of actual adverse reactions that are not accounted. Might be not many, night be a lot.
>

Sorry but this is correct. The removal of mercury from MMR was due to pressure by people claiming it caused autism. Mainly the Hg based preservative thimerosal. This was more a PR exercise to relax the anxiety of the public over the ‘autism epidemic’. In the end there is no link between vaccines and autism, never was. The removal was an evaluation of a theoretical risk, not an actual risk. Again if you haven’t had an adverse reaction after a couple of months you are not going to. The history of vaccinations tells us this.

Nothing to do with autism. Mercury is a systemic and endemic poison that is cumulative and never leaves your body. Mercury accumulates and at a critical level will cause serious problems. It is a good idea to remove Mercury from anything that goes in your body.

It’s all about dose. A theoretical risk only that never eventuated. Like you said you had vaccines with mercury in it as did I and I would suggest neither of us has suffered as a result. I cannot find any source where anyone else has actually had an effect. Like I said if you haven’t had an adverse reaction after two months you are not going to. The whole history of vaccinations is on my side.

Im double vaxxed and all my family is as well.

Talking about the "whole history" of vaccines when discussing an mRNA vaccine is like talking about the safety of steam trains vs civilian space travel. The mRNA vaccines do not work like the "whole history" of vaccines. That doesnt mean they will be better or worse. It means there is no comparison. Its simply a fact. There is a TON of data now about the short term safety of the vaccines, none about long term.

The mRNA vaccines are still vaccines. They don’t stay in you system for very long, past a few weeks at most. All they do is prime your immune system. It’s your immune system that attacks any invading virus. The mRNA vaccines don’t alter your DNA as you have already acknowledged and they don’t replicate. We have now had literally billions of does given. We already know the adverse effects. What we don’t know is how long the immune system remembers, and how often we may need another jab. That’s where the longitudinal studies come in.

Seriously Mike it is seriously steam trains v civilian space flight. Despite the fact that the are both called "Vaccines" (there is an argument that the COVID vaccine should be called prophylactic not vaccine) there is zero similarity between the two mechanisms of action. Traditional vaccines typically contain a denatured version of the virus and the bodies immune system recognises the protein as foreign, attacks it and remembers it. The Pfizer/Moderna mRNA enters your healthy cells, the RNA actively entrers the cytoplasm and then "tricks" the healthy cell into producing the S1 protein...from the healthy normal cell and then the immune system attacks that S1 protein and "hopefully" remembers it but as you note, it seems it may forget.

Im NOT saying that the vaccine is unsafe at all. There is an unbelievable amount of data on the safety of the vaccine in the short term. As you said, there simply is no longitudinal data and therefore no long term data on an almost completely novel technology.

Yes they are a different technology, ie they are not a dead or an inert virus (novavax is though). I understand what the mRNA vaccines do, they are basically recipes for the cells to build the protein spike that you find on Covid19. They are still vaccines and work on the same principle as all other vaccines, they prime your immune system and it’s your immune system that does the work in killing any virus, not the vaccines.

Again they don’t alter your DNA and they don’t replicate. Additionally for most they only stay in your body for a few days, a few weeks at most and then the vaccines are gone. We know this already.

The longitudinal data won’t find any additional adverse effects than what we already know. It will tell us how much the immune system remembers and therefore how often we need additional jabs.

 

[earl]

Singapore is getting bad too I hear and most of them are vaxxed

Unbelievably high population density.

We need to put Singapore into perspective as well. They are doing better than us and we've done exceptionally well. I like to use the counter example of Florida.

Deaths per million population:-

Florida:- 2,744
Australia:- 66
Singapore:- 59

Guess who has the most freedoms and lowest vaccination rates. You have to show me data like that in reverse to provide a rational argument that vaccines and restrictions don't work.

Another way of looking at Florida's figures is that Australia's greatest killer is heart disease and a reasonable estimate per year of deaths from heart disease is about 18k people per year. Florida have had over 58k deaths from COVID. Florida has less people than Australia.

 

[swag_tiger]

Singapore is getting bad too I hear and most of them are vaxxed

Unbelievably high population density.

We need to put Singapore into perspective as well. They are doing better than us and we've done exceptionally well. I like to use the counter example of Florida.

Deaths per million population:-

Florida:- 2,744
Australia:- 66
Singapore:- 59

Guess who has the most freedoms and lowest vaccination rates. You have to show me data like that in reverse to provide a rational argument that vaccines and restrictions don't work.

Another way of looking at Florida's figures is that Australia's greatest killer is heart disease and a reasonable estimate per year of deaths from heart disease is about 18k people per year. Florida have had over 58k deaths from COVID. Florida has less people than Australia.

If you're talking about America, Australia is rated higher on the human freedom index.

 

[earl]

Singapore is getting bad too I hear and most of them are vaxxed

Unbelievably high population density.

We need to put Singapore into perspective as well. They are doing better than us and we've done exceptionally well. I like to use the counter example of Florida.

Deaths per million population:-

Florida:- 2,744
Australia:- 66
Singapore:- 59

Guess who has the most freedoms and lowest vaccination rates. You have to show me data like that in reverse to provide a rational argument that vaccines and restrictions don't work.

Another way of looking at Florida's figures is that Australia's greatest killer is heart disease and a reasonable estimate per year of deaths from heart disease is about 18k people per year. Florida have had over 58k deaths from COVID. Florida has less people than Australia.

If you're talking about America, Australia is rated higher on the human freedom index.

I'm not surprised. I would state America has major problems in relation to their rights/freedoms.

 

[happy_tiger]

Singapore is getting bad too I hear and most of them are vaxxed

Unbelievably high population density.

We need to put Singapore into perspective as well. They are doing better than us and we've done exceptionally well. I like to use the counter example of Florida.

Deaths per million population:-

Florida:- 2,744
Australia:- 66
Singapore:- 59

Guess who has the most freedoms and lowest vaccination rates. You have to show me data like that in reverse to provide a rational argument that vaccines and restrictions don't work.

Another way of looking at Florida's figures is that Australia's greatest killer is heart disease and a reasonable estimate per year of deaths from heart disease is about 18k people per year. Florida have had over 58k deaths from COVID. Florida has less people than Australia.

If you're talking about America, Australia is rated higher on the human freedom index.

I'm not surprised. I would state America has major problems in relation to their rights/freedoms.

But as long as they can carry a gun ....all is good

2nd shot today ...

 

[Tiger5150]

Singapore is getting bad too I hear and most of them are vaxxed

Unbelievably high population density.

We need to put Singapore into perspective as well. They are doing better than us and we've done exceptionally well. I like to use the counter example of Florida.

Deaths per million population:-

Florida:- 2,744
Australia:- 66
Singapore:- 59

Guess who has the most freedoms and lowest vaccination rates. You have to show me data like that in reverse to provide a rational argument that vaccines and restrictions don't work.

Another way of looking at Florida's figures is that Australia's greatest killer is heart disease and a reasonable estimate per year of deaths from heart disease is about 18k people per year. Florida have had over 58k deaths from COVID. Florida has less people than Australia.

Not having a crack at you Earl, but I dont understand your point. I think you are screaming at windmills. I dont think anyone is arguing against vaccines and restrictions, I certainly am not.

 

[cochise]

Singapore is getting bad too I hear and most of them are vaxxed

Unbelievably high population density.

We need to put Singapore into perspective as well. They are doing better than us and we've done exceptionally well. I like to use the counter example of Florida.

Deaths per million population:-

Florida:- 2,744
Australia:- 66
Singapore:- 59

Guess who has the most freedoms and lowest vaccination rates. You have to show me data like that in reverse to provide a rational argument that vaccines and restrictions don't work.

Another way of looking at Florida's figures is that Australia's greatest killer is heart disease and a reasonable estimate per year of deaths from heart disease is about 18k people per year. Florida have had over 58k deaths from COVID. Florida has less people than Australia.

Not having a crack at you Earl, but I dont understand your point. I think you are screaming at windmills. I dont think anyone is arguing against vaccines and restrictions, I certainly am not.

I believe @yeti may have been.

 

[Tiger5150]

Singapore is getting bad too I hear and most of them are vaxxed

Unbelievably high population density.

We need to put Singapore into perspective as well. They are doing better than us and we've done exceptionally well. I like to use the counter example of Florida.

Deaths per million population:-

Florida:- 2,744
Australia:- 66
Singapore:- 59

Guess who has the most freedoms and lowest vaccination rates. You have to show me data like that in reverse to provide a rational argument that vaccines and restrictions don't work.

Another way of looking at Florida's figures is that Australia's greatest killer is heart disease and a reasonable estimate per year of deaths from heart disease is about 18k people per year. Florida have had over 58k deaths from COVID. Florida has less people than Australia.

Not having a crack at you Earl, but I dont understand your point. I think you are screaming at windmills. I dont think anyone is arguing against vaccines and restrictions, I certainly am not.

I believe @yeti may have been.

Cool, and Im not antagonising Earl, but he is replying to me response to Trent Runciman?

 

[earl]

Not having a crack at you Earl, but I dont understand your point. I think you are screaming at windmills. I dont think anyone is arguing against vaccines and restrictions, I certainly am not.

My impression is that some people use countries like Singapore or Israel as arguments against vaccination. They may also be extremely nervousness/scared of COVID.

The problem is those countries are not great examples to support an irrational argument against vaccines or to make COVID into something worse than what it is. Those countries to me prove the opposite point.

 

[Guest]

Singapore is getting bad too I hear and most of them are vaxxed

Unbelievably high population density.

We need to put Singapore into perspective as well. They are doing better than us and we've done exceptionally well. I like to use the counter example of Florida.

Deaths per million population:-

Florida:- 2,744
Australia:- 66
Singapore:- 59

Guess who has the most freedoms and lowest vaccination rates. You have to show me data like that in reverse to provide a rational argument that vaccines and restrictions don't work.

Another way of looking at Florida's figures is that Australia's greatest killer is heart disease and a reasonable estimate per year of deaths from heart disease is about 18k people per year. Florida have had over 58k deaths from COVID. Florida has less people than Australia.

If you're talking about America, Australia is rated higher on the human freedom index.

I'm not surprised. I would state America has major problems in relation to their rights/freedoms.

Not if you ask them...Jim Jeffries stand up piece on freedom sums it up well.

 

[earl]

Singapore is getting bad too I hear and most of them are vaxxed

Unbelievably high population density.

We need to put Singapore into perspective as well. They are doing better than us and we've done exceptionally well. I like to use the counter example of Florida.

Deaths per million population:-

Florida:- 2,744
Australia:- 66
Singapore:- 59

Guess who has the most freedoms and lowest vaccination rates. You have to show me data like that in reverse to provide a rational argument that vaccines and restrictions don't work.

Another way of looking at Florida's figures is that Australia's greatest killer is heart disease and a reasonable estimate per year of deaths from heart disease is about 18k people per year. Florida have had over 58k deaths from COVID. Florida has less people than Australia.

Not having a crack at you Earl, but I dont understand your point. I think you are screaming at windmills. I dont think anyone is arguing against vaccines and restrictions, I certainly am not.

I believe @yeti may have been.

Cool, and Im not antagonising Earl, but he is replying to me response to Trent Runciman?

Yeti made the argument. Other people responded to those arguments and they did a really good job. The only other counter point is that argument that Israel or Singapore are somehow poorly performing despite high vaccination rates. Those countries data do not support an anti COVID vaccination argument.

I'm not responding in criticism to your point regarding Singapore having a high population density. The population density probably is an issue. The thing is that even if that is the case the reality is that Singapore's figures are pretty darn good.

 

[earl]

Singapore is getting bad too I hear and most of them are vaxxed

Unbelievably high population density.

We need to put Singapore into perspective as well. They are doing better than us and we've done exceptionally well. I like to use the counter example of Florida.

Deaths per million population:-

Florida:- 2,744
Australia:- 66
Singapore:- 59

Guess who has the most freedoms and lowest vaccination rates. You have to show me data like that in reverse to provide a rational argument that vaccines and restrictions don't work.

Another way of looking at Florida's figures is that Australia's greatest killer is heart disease and a reasonable estimate per year of deaths from heart disease is about 18k people per year. Florida have had over 58k deaths from COVID. Florida has less people than Australia.

If you're talking about America, Australia is rated higher on the human freedom index.

I'm not surprised. I would state America has major problems in relation to their rights/freedoms.

Not if you ask them...Jim Jeffries stand up piece on freedom sums it up well.

I haven't seen this. I'll have a look. It's interesting how we define freedom though. I think a whole bunch of people in America like Happy states believe gun ownership is freedom. Democracy doesn't matter. America is nuts.

 

[Tiger5150]

Not having a crack at you Earl, but I dont understand your point. I think you are screaming at windmills. I dont think anyone is arguing against vaccines and restrictions, I certainly am not.

My impression is that some people use countries like Singapore or Israel as arguments against vaccination. They may also be extremely nervousness/scared of COVID.

The problem is those countries are not great examples to support an irrational argument against vaccines or to make COVID into something worse than what it is. Those countries to me prove the opposite point.

@trentrunciman can speak for himself, but the fact that he mentioned that most of the new infections in the rise of cases in Singapore were unvaxxed suggests to me he wasnt making an anti vax point.

 

[Guest]

Singapore is getting bad too I hear and most of them are vaxxed

Unbelievably high population density.

We need to put Singapore into perspective as well. They are doing better than us and we've done exceptionally well. I like to use the counter example of Florida.

Deaths per million population:-

Florida:- 2,744
Australia:- 66
Singapore:- 59

Guess who has the most freedoms and lowest vaccination rates. You have to show me data like that in reverse to provide a rational argument that vaccines and restrictions don't work.

Another way of looking at Florida's figures is that Australia's greatest killer is heart disease and a reasonable estimate per year of deaths from heart disease is about 18k people per year. Florida have had over 58k deaths from COVID. Florida has less people than Australia.

If you're talking about America, Australia is rated higher on the human freedom index.

I'm not surprised. I would state America has major problems in relation to their rights/freedoms.

Not if you ask them...Jim Jeffries stand up piece on freedom sums it up well.

I haven't seen this. I'll have a look. It's interesting how we define freedom though. I think a whole bunch of people in America like Happy states believe gun ownership is freedom. Democracy doesn't matter. America is nuts.

Go to Youtube and search Jim Jeffries Freedumb - I won't post the link here as it's once of those NSFW due to the language.

 

[Tiger5150]

Singapore is getting bad too I hear and most of them are vaxxed

Unbelievably high population density.

We need to put Singapore into perspective as well. They are doing better than us and we've done exceptionally well. I like to use the counter example of Florida.

Deaths per million population:-

Florida:- 2,744
Australia:- 66
Singapore:- 59

Guess who has the most freedoms and lowest vaccination rates. You have to show me data like that in reverse to provide a rational argument that vaccines and restrictions don't work.

Another way of looking at Florida's figures is that Australia's greatest killer is heart disease and a reasonable estimate per year of deaths from heart disease is about 18k people per year. Florida have had over 58k deaths from COVID. Florida has less people than Australia.

If you're talking about America, Australia is rated higher on the human freedom index.

I'm not surprised. I would state America has major problems in relation to their rights/freedoms.

Not if you ask them...Jim Jeffries stand up piece on freedom sums it up well.

I haven't seen this. I'll have a look. It's interesting how we define freedom though. I think a whole bunch of people in America like Happy states believe gun ownership is freedom. Democracy doesn't matter. America is nuts.

Go to Youtube and search Jim Jeffries Freedumb - I won't post the link here as it's once of those NSFW due to the language.

I cant watch Jim Jeffries anymore. Go and watch his old videos and what he is saying/joking about and then compare it to his new woke persona. Fake. Chasing the US $$$ chasing Hannah Gadsby coattails. Gadsby isnt funny but at least she is genuine, Jeffries is neither anymore.


ummmmmm....back on track,,,........Im sure Jeffries and Gadsby are both vaxxed and thats a good thing.

 

[yeti]

Re Australia having a higher vaccination rate than Israel. I guess that depends on whether you have faith in the figures being stated by the various State Governments in Australia. I don't.
However, I do note that the Federal Health Minister, Greg Hunt, has just ordered another 150million doses of Covid vaccines. Really? 6 more doses for every man, woman and child in Australia? Better start rolling up your sleeves guys and gals.
In any event, compared to what is coming down the pipeline, the whole Covid scene will be a mere distraction. Just take a look at 2 pieces of legislation. One recently passed called the Identify and Disrupt Bill (whereby “An AFP or ACIC officer ‘may apply to a judge or a member of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal’ for what is called a ‘data disruption warrant’. This means the officer can add, copy, delete or alter data held in the computer.”
A warrant is granted on the basis of “reasonable grounds” of suspicion, for any offence “likely to be” committed or if disruption of data is “likely to substantially assist” prevention of the offence. Now that won't be abused will it?
Even more egregious is Dan Andrews proposed new pandemic laws.
If this Bill becomes law (as is likely given the pathetic cross bench in Victoria), we will see dictatorial powers vested in one individual - the Premier. He will be able to declare pandemics and have PHOs enforced for 3 months at a time with no outer limit on the total duration of the Pandemic. There will be no requirement for the Chief Health Officer to sign off on PHOs. These 'pandemics' can be declared even without a pandemic within Australia and without recourse to the Cabinet or Parliament. The Bill also allows the Premier to 'target' any specific section of society, whether based on race, religion, age, gender of even just political idealogies.
Those of you who still think Australia is the land of the fee - think again. Once passed into law in Victoria, (If it gets passed), get ready for the other States to follow suit.
Its these types of legislation being passed into law whilst our attention is elsewhere makes one wonder on the true nature/purpose of this 'pandemic'.