CORONAVIRUS VACCINATIONS

[tig_prmz]

science is about longitudinal studies, especially when it comes to medicine. It’s about 10 year long evidence based research to see all possible effects. Yeh in theory vaccine is a great idea but that’s theoretical.

Sorry that's not how the pharmaceutical industry works. You mention you are in the healthcare sector, ok, but then you might have some knowledge that new drugs typically come to the market with only a few years of human testing.

The entire research from concept to implementation may take 10 years, but often it's 5-6 years in human trials. The total human research cohort is usually only a few thousand, unless it is an easy-to-enrol outcomes study like vaccines or cardiovascular.

The idea is to provide evidence (a) that the drug is safe, and (b) that it is effective. You then submit the data to the health authorities and they decide whether your research and findings are appropriate, then they grant approval to market.

Next there is post-marketing surveillance, where it is compulsory for all companies with a marketed product to follow up long-term safety outcomes for as long as their products are on the shelf.

Not meaning to sound patronising if you already know all that information, but pharma companies simply can't/won't wait for 10 years of efficacy data if they don't have to. This is especially true for unmet need indications like cancer, epilepsy, immune disorders... and COVID.

It is also horrendously expensive to research new drugs - typically half a billion to get a drug to market.

I can say this because I am a professional drug researcher of almost 20 years experience.

The epidemiology of cancer, epilepsy, immune disorder etc is 1 in 1000 probably. Vaccine will be implemented on almost 90% of the population (or at least those who haven't acquired COVID before).

The medications for the diseases you described are a necessity to help them live, the risk taken is huge but the benefit is huge too.

COVID on the other hand, the virus itself we haven't been able to decode the DNA of it properly. We don't know the long term implications on those who even have the virus. Compare that to DPT, small pox etc where the death rates were astronomical. The disease HAD to be stopped, whereas with COVID, the biggest issue is the economical impact as death rates are minuscule.

As for making COVID vaccine compulsory, I'd say that I'd be happy for people to have a choice whether they want to be injected with it or not. Those who choose to (like myself) are choosing so that I don't infect other and don't get infected myself. If you're worried about catching it, then get the vaccine. It shouldn't be up to the person next to you to get vaccinated.

I am happy with a health discussion and you seem to have a much better experience than I but at the end, I'm just trying to use common sense and understand people's rights and apprehensions. The disease itself isn't even 1 year, what if 5 years down the track those who have had the disease previously develop some type of demyelination or neuropathic disorders that we didn't know of? All of it needs to be taken into consideration before vaccines are made "compulsory".

 

[mike]

science is about longitudinal studies, especially when it comes to medicine. It’s about 10 year long evidence based research to see all possible effects. Yeh in theory vaccine is a great idea but that’s theoretical.

Sorry that's not how the pharmaceutical industry works. You mention you are in the healthcare sector, ok, but then you might have some knowledge that new drugs typically come to the market with only a few years of human testing.

The entire research from concept to implementation may take 10 years, but often it's 5-6 years in human trials. The total human research cohort is usually only a few thousand, unless it is an easy-to-enrol outcomes study like vaccines or cardiovascular.

The idea is to provide evidence (a) that the drug is safe, and (b) that it is effective. You then submit the data to the health authorities and they decide whether your research and findings are appropriate, then they grant approval to market.

Next there is post-marketing surveillance, where it is compulsory for all companies with a marketed product to follow up long-term safety outcomes for as long as their products are on the shelf.

Not meaning to sound patronising if you already know all that information, but pharma companies simply can't/won't wait for 10 years of efficacy data if they don't have to. This is especially true for unmet need indications like cancer, epilepsy, immune disorders... and COVID.

It is also horrendously expensive to research new drugs - typically half a billion to get a drug to market.

I can say this because I am a professional drug researcher of almost 20 years experience.

The epidemiology of cancer, epilepsy, immune disorder etc is 1 in 1000 probably. Vaccine will be implemented on almost 90% of the population (or at least those who haven't acquired COVID before).

The medications for the diseases you described are a necessity to help them live, the risk taken is huge but the benefit is huge too.

COVID on the other hand, the virus itself we haven't been able to decode the DNA of it properly. We don't know the long term implications on those who even have the virus. Compare that to DPT, small pox etc where the death rates were astronomical. The disease HAD to be stopped, whereas with COVID, the biggest issue is the economical impact as **death rates are minuscule.**

As for making COVID vaccine compulsory, I'd say that I'd be happy for people to have a choice whether they want to be injected with it or not. Those who choose to (like myself) are choosing so that I don't infect other and don't get infected myself. If you're worried about catching it, then get the vaccine. It shouldn't be up to the person next to you to get vaccinated.

I am happy with a health discussion and you seem to have a much better experience than I but at the end, I'm just trying to use common sense and understand people's rights and apprehensions. The disease itself isn't even 1 year, what if 5 years down the track those who have had the disease previously develop some type of demyelination or neuropathic disorders that we didn't know of? All of it needs to be taken into consideration before vaccines are made "compulsory".

The world outside Australia and NZ and perhaps Singapore is on fire. The third wave has been devastating. Almost all ICU beds in America are full. Expect the mass graves to return. Americans won’t physically distance and as a result deaths are increasing and will continue to do so until people are vaccinated.

You have the right to risk your own life, but you don’t have the right to knowingly endanger the lives of your neighbors, family, coworkers, the folks at the grocery store, or the people that cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons.

 

[Hangonaminute]

There will be two types of vaxxers in the next few years: those that accept the vaccine and those that only want domestic holidays.

I won't be leaving the country then, I'm no anti vaxer but I won't be getting a jab until the teething problems are over.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

Good, we'll need healthy humans to feed on when the vaccine turns us into zombies.

 

[hobbo1]

Good, we'll need healthy humans to feed on when the vaccine turns us into zombies.

I propose that @happy_tiger gets the first shot lol

 

[happy_tiger]

Good, we'll need healthy humans to feed on when the vaccine turns us into zombies.

I propose that @happy_tiger gets the first shot lol

I'll starve eating your brain lol

 

[hobbo1]

Good, we'll need healthy humans to feed on when the vaccine turns us into zombies.

I propose that @happy_tiger gets the first shot lol

I'll starve eating your brain lol

If the covid vaccination makes you smarter than a 5th grader we'll all know to stay away from it ?

 

[happy_tiger]

Good, we'll need healthy humans to feed on when the vaccine turns us into zombies.

I propose that @happy_tiger gets the first shot lol

I'll starve eating your brain lol

If the covid vaccination makes you smarter than a 5th grader we'll all know to stay away from it ?

We won't be able to tell from your posts whether you have or haven't got smarter ...even if your IQ quadruples you will still be under 50

 

[hobbo1]

Good, we'll need healthy humans to feed on when the vaccine turns us into zombies.

I propose that @happy_tiger gets the first shot lol

I'll starve eating your brain lol

If the covid vaccination makes you smarter than a 5th grader we'll all know to stay away from it ?

We won't be able to tell from your posts whether you have or haven't got smarter ...even if your IQ quadruples you will still be under 50

Still be 40 more than you

 

[happy_tiger]

Good, we'll need healthy humans to feed on when the vaccine turns us into zombies.

I propose that @happy_tiger gets the first shot lol

I'll starve eating your brain lol

If the covid vaccination makes you smarter than a 5th grader we'll all know to stay away from it ?

We won't be able to tell from your posts whether you have or haven't got smarter ...even if your IQ quadruples you will still be under 50

Still be 40 more than you

I',m already 150's proof is on the Forum somewhere

 

[hobbo1]

Good, we'll need healthy humans to feed on when the vaccine turns us into zombies.

I propose that @happy_tiger gets the first shot lol

I'll starve eating your brain lol

If the covid vaccination makes you smarter than a 5th grader we'll all know to stay away from it ?

We won't be able to tell from your posts whether you have or haven't got smarter ...even if your IQ quadruples you will still be under 50

Still be 40 more than you

I',m already 150's proof is on the Forum somewhere

Somewhere .....?
It’ll be in Geo’s filing cabinet ?

 

[Guest]

The topic please guys...

 

[jirskyr]

The medications for the diseases you described are a necessity to help them live, the risk taken is huge but the benefit is huge too.
COVID on the other hand, the virus itself we haven’t been able to decode the DNA of it properly. We don’t know the long term implications on those who even have the virus. Compare that to DPT, small pox etc where the death rates were astronomical. The disease HAD to be stopped, whereas with COVID, the biggest issue is the economical impact as death rates are minuscule.
As for making COVID vaccine compulsory, I’d say that I’d be happy for people to have a choice whether they want to be injected with it or not. Those who choose to (like myself) are choosing so that I don’t infect other and don’t get infected myself. If you’re worried about catching it, then get the vaccine. It shouldn’t be up to the person next to you to get vaccinated.
I am happy with a health discussion and you seem to have a much better experience than I but at the end, I’m just trying to use common sense and understand people’s rights and apprehensions. The disease itself isn’t even 1 year, what if 5 years down the track those who have had the disease previously develop some type of demyelination or neuropathic disorders that we didn’t know of? All of it needs to be taken into consideration before vaccines are made “compulsory”.

A democratic government should not make a vaccine compulsory, it's unethical. But they can heavily incentivise the shot.

I expect, initially, that non-vaccination will mean you cannot travel internationally. Eventually however there might be a fairly significant social stigma associated with not being vaccinated, because of how damaging the pandemic is. This may also apply to schools, businesses, day care etc., where they cannot take the risk that non-vaccinated folks bring disease cases into their institution.

I think you undersell the seriousness of COVID as a condition. You are firstly correct that we don't know long-term outcomes of having the disease and it may have later significant impact on quality of life and ultimate mortality. The death rate is modest, yes, but when the entire human population is disease naive 12 months ago, even 1% death rate is a staggering destructive outcome - you are talking 70M deaths in however many years it takes the entire population to become exposed.

In the US alone, COVID-related deaths have eclipsed many very damaging national events such as WWI, Vietnam, Korean wars. COVID-related deaths have almost matched total combat deaths from WWII, which is horrendous to contemplate, given that WWII was so destructive and still it took 4 years to rack up that combat tally.

So I feel ultimately the risk in non-vaccination for COVID is huge. Not at a personal level, but at a global level. You can't catch cancer or heart disease, so those are individual challenges.

 

[jirskyr]

There will be two types of vaxxers in the next few years: those that accept the vaccine and those that only want domestic holidays.

I won't be leaving the country then, I'm no anti vaxer but I won't be getting a jab until the teething problems are over.

What teething problems specifically?

 

[mike]

There will be two types of vaxxers in the next few years: those that accept the vaccine and those that only want domestic holidays.

I won't be leaving the country then, I'm no anti vaxer but I won't be getting a jab until the teething problems are over.

What teething problems specifically?

Don’t encourage him

 

[jirskyr]

There will be two types of vaxxers in the next few years: those that accept the vaccine and those that only want domestic holidays.

I won't be leaving the country then, I'm no anti vaxer but I won't be getting a jab until the teething problems are over.

What teething problems specifically?

Don’t encourage him

Well the thing is to understand those concerns, potentially address or dispel them.

Delaying vaccination, I don't know if folks understand that impacts the concept of how vaccinations work in the community. It's no good for folks to pick and choose for highly infectious disease, because a significant part of vaccination is not just prevention, but ultimately dampening down of total population caseload.

So if half of all folks decide they want to "wait and see" for some specific reason, then that's half the population with ZERO protection against COVID and half the population for it to catch fire within.

Perhaps we need to go back 200 years when there were no vaccinations at all, and no antibiotics, and give folks another lesson in the destructive power of communicable disease in large well-connected populations.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

There will be two types of vaxxers in the next few years: those that accept the vaccine and those that only want domestic holidays.

I won't be leaving the country then, I'm no anti vaxer but I won't be getting a jab until the teething problems are over.

What teething problems specifically?

Don’t encourage him

Well the thing is to understand those concerns, potentially address or dispel them.

Delaying vaccination, I don't know if folks understand that impacts the concept of how vaccinations work in the community. It's no good for folks to pick and choose for highly infectious disease, because a significant part of vaccination is not just prevention, but ultimately dampening down of total population caseload.

So if half of all folks decide they want to "wait and see" for some specific reason, then that's half the population with ZERO protection against COVID and half the population for it to catch fire within.

Perhaps we need to go back 200 years when there were no vaccinations at all, and no antibiotics, and give folks another lesson in the destructive power of communicable disease in large well-connected populations.

Make Smallpox Great Again.

 

[tig_prmz]

The medications for the diseases you described are a necessity to help them live, the risk taken is huge but the benefit is huge too.
COVID on the other hand, the virus itself we haven’t been able to decode the DNA of it properly. We don’t know the long term implications on those who even have the virus. Compare that to DPT, small pox etc where the death rates were astronomical. The disease HAD to be stopped, whereas with COVID, the biggest issue is the economical impact as death rates are minuscule.
As for making COVID vaccine compulsory, I’d say that I’d be happy for people to have a choice whether they want to be injected with it or not. Those who choose to (like myself) are choosing so that I don’t infect other and don’t get infected myself. If you’re worried about catching it, then get the vaccine. It shouldn’t be up to the person next to you to get vaccinated.
I am happy with a health discussion and you seem to have a much better experience than I but at the end, I’m just trying to use common sense and understand people’s rights and apprehensions. The disease itself isn’t even 1 year, what if 5 years down the track those who have had the disease previously develop some type of demyelination or neuropathic disorders that we didn’t know of? All of it needs to be taken into consideration before vaccines are made “compulsory”.

A democratic government should not make a vaccine compulsory, it's unethical. But they can heavily incentivise the shot.

I expect, initially, that non-vaccination will mean you cannot travel internationally. Eventually however there might be a fairly significant social stigma associated with not being vaccinated, because of how damaging the pandemic is. This may also apply to schools, businesses, day care etc., where they cannot take the risk that non-vaccinated folks bring disease cases into their institution.

I think you undersell the seriousness of COVID as a condition. You are firstly correct that we don't know long-term outcomes of having the disease and it may have later significant impact on quality of life and ultimate mortality. The death rate is modest, yes, but when the entire human population is disease naive 12 months ago, even 1% death rate is a staggering destructive outcome - you are talking 70M deaths in however many years it takes the entire population to become exposed.

In the US alone, COVID-related deaths have eclipsed many very damaging national events such as WWI, Vietnam, Korean wars. COVID-related deaths have almost matched total combat deaths from WWII, which is horrendous to contemplate, given that WWII was so destructive and still it took 4 years to rack up that combat tally.

So I feel ultimately the risk in non-vaccination for COVID is huge. Not at a personal level, but at a global level. You can't catch cancer or heart disease, so those are individual challenges.

In terms of COVID - related deaths, I feel those people have had several co-morbidities anyway and I'd be keen to look at the data of the amount of people passing away each year from normal flu vs COVID.

Just thinking out loud here but maybe those at risk such as the elderly, COPD patients and the immuno suppressent patients, the vaccine could be heavily recommended to them so the chances of them catching it are reduced rather than the other 90% of the population for which the symptoms are that of a serious flu. They have more to gain from the vaccine than the otherwise healthy.

And then once we know more and more in the next 5 or 6 years, the use can becomes widespread.

I don't agree with putting the onus on those that have less to lose than those that have more to lose.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

The medications for the diseases you described are a necessity to help them live, the risk taken is huge but the benefit is huge too.
COVID on the other hand, the virus itself we haven’t been able to decode the DNA of it properly. We don’t know the long term implications on those who even have the virus. Compare that to DPT, small pox etc where the death rates were astronomical. The disease HAD to be stopped, whereas with COVID, the biggest issue is the economical impact as death rates are minuscule.
As for making COVID vaccine compulsory, I’d say that I’d be happy for people to have a choice whether they want to be injected with it or not. Those who choose to (like myself) are choosing so that I don’t infect other and don’t get infected myself. If you’re worried about catching it, then get the vaccine. It shouldn’t be up to the person next to you to get vaccinated.
I am happy with a health discussion and you seem to have a much better experience than I but at the end, I’m just trying to use common sense and understand people’s rights and apprehensions. The disease itself isn’t even 1 year, what if 5 years down the track those who have had the disease previously develop some type of demyelination or neuropathic disorders that we didn’t know of? All of it needs to be taken into consideration before vaccines are made “compulsory”.

A democratic government should not make a vaccine compulsory, it's unethical. But they can heavily incentivise the shot.

I expect, initially, that non-vaccination will mean you cannot travel internationally. Eventually however there might be a fairly significant social stigma associated with not being vaccinated, because of how damaging the pandemic is. This may also apply to schools, businesses, day care etc., where they cannot take the risk that non-vaccinated folks bring disease cases into their institution.

I think you undersell the seriousness of COVID as a condition. You are firstly correct that we don't know long-term outcomes of having the disease and it may have later significant impact on quality of life and ultimate mortality. The death rate is modest, yes, but when the entire human population is disease naive 12 months ago, even 1% death rate is a staggering destructive outcome - you are talking 70M deaths in however many years it takes the entire population to become exposed.

In the US alone, COVID-related deaths have eclipsed many very damaging national events such as WWI, Vietnam, Korean wars. COVID-related deaths have almost matched total combat deaths from WWII, which is horrendous to contemplate, given that WWII was so destructive and still it took 4 years to rack up that combat tally.

So I feel ultimately the risk in non-vaccination for COVID is huge. Not at a personal level, but at a global level. You can't catch cancer or heart disease, so those are individual challenges.

In terms of COVID - related deaths, I feel those people have had several co-morbidities anyway and I'd be keen to look at the data of the amount of people passing away each year from normal flu vs COVID.

Just thinking out loud here but maybe those at risk such as the elderly, COPD patients and the immuno suppressent patients, the vaccine could be heavily recommended to them so the chances of them catching it are reduced rather than the other 90% of the population for which the symptoms are that of a serious flu. They have more to gain from the vaccine than the otherwise healthy.

And then once we know more and more in the next 5 or 6 years, the use can becomes widespread.

I don't agree with putting the onus on those that have less to lose than those that have more to lose.

According to the CDC, influenza killed around 34,200 people in 2018-2019 flu season.

The CDC classifies the flu season as the start of autumn, so from the 1st September 190,000 deaths had already been racked up by COVID in the United States. Another 3 months later (start of winter,) it's at 276,000 and as of today some 5.4 million people are infected and beds are maxed out in heavy hit areas.

Why is the co-mordbity argument always dredged up? No one is debating this. It's no different for the flu or any other disease that predates on comorbidities. The fact is that the influenza in the same flu season period had an estimated death rate of 0.1% (based on a reported 35.5m infections.) currently the COVID death rate versus total infections is at 1.96% (276,000 deaths versus a reported 14,108,000 infections.) COVID has a higher mortality rate of a factor of almost 20.

And you're assuming that those people with co-morbidities like the immunosuppressed & COPD patients etc are able to have the vaccine. What if they can't?

 

[PJ_]

So many opinions. Get it or don't.
Just like politics and religion, you will never change someone else's view.
Save your strength for tigers 2021. We will need it 😇