Don’t stand for the anthem!’
- Thread starter innsaneink
- Start date
@Mashies said:
Nope don't get worked up by them at all, never watch them, so I guess you're assuming stuff about me and making an ignorant judgment also. Regardless of the circumstances surrounding the issue, I was simply responding to what you said in _your_ particular post. Perhaps it was the way it was worded, but I stand by my opinion - it was a bigoted comment.
"**_Focusing on changes that are about acknowledging historical unfairness seems ridiculous, when there are more pressing current community issues around domestic violence, gambling addiction and alcohol abuse among many others, that could do with a bit more promotion. You aren't going to see those items get much airplay now though are you as it might impact profits…_**
I agree with this, but often you will find that the current community issues we have, such as those you mention above, are actually the consequences of an unresolved past, so sometimes there is good reason to acknowledge the historical wrongs, so all parties can move on.
"Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives … You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours ... You, the mothers who sent their sons from faraway countries, wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
The above is a quote from Mustafa Kemal Ataturk after the war ended in reference to the Anzacs that lost their lives in Gallipoli. This is a speech that creates unity and shows respect to those that lost their lives in a war that was not of the Anzacs making. He doesnt separate the Anzacs from the Turks losses, he shows respect.
Remember the Turks lost more men in Gallipoli than the Anzacs, it was their country that was invaded and still he shows respect.
So what logic do we have for not standing, because we don't like the anthem or the flag! While I respect the right not to stand I find it extremely disrespectful that we wouldn't, even if you only did it to respect the memory of those that died for our country.
The above is a quote from Mustafa Kemal Ataturk after the war ended in reference to the Anzacs that lost their lives in Gallipoli. This is a speech that creates unity and shows respect to those that lost their lives in a war that was not of the Anzacs making. He doesnt separate the Anzacs from the Turks losses, he shows respect.
Remember the Turks lost more men in Gallipoli than the Anzacs, it was their country that was invaded and still he shows respect.
So what logic do we have for not standing, because we don't like the anthem or the flag! While I respect the right not to stand I find it extremely disrespectful that we wouldn't, even if you only did it to respect the memory of those that died for our country.
guyofthetiger
Well-known member
People deal with trauma in different ways. How well they will cope can usually be predicted in terms of 'level of resilience' versus 'severity of traumatic experience'. Those with low resilience who experience a severe event struggle most to recover. This is why intergenerational trauma is so significant. Trauma breeds trauma - until small steps taken over generations eventually lead to change. And then the opportunity finally presents itself for a generation to make a big change.
It is much less about informed or empowered choice than many are suggesting. Unfortunately though the increasingly prevalent notion of 'lifters versus leaners' denies this.
As a health worker, I work with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander youth from remote communities all over the country. I see the intergenerational effects of colonisation as like a tsunami. Presently it's hard to tell whether the massive tide is still coming in, or if it's starting to go out. I like to think it's the latter, but either way, but many communities are still in the thick of it.
In terms of changing the effects of intergenerational trauma as a result of colonisation, I see it as like trench warfare. A lot go over the top but not all make it to the next trench. A few more make it to the one after that and so on, with each generation. In that sense, change is happening.
The biggest problem is the lateral violence in remote communities, which is a direct effect of this trauma, presenting itself as domestic violence, bullying and tall poppy syndrome. Many who make it to the next trench are sabotaged and end up back in the previous trench or worse.
Unfortunately, lateral violence particularly occurs when there’s not enough opportunities for everyone. When some are capable while many aren’t. When the resources are stretched to capacity everyone fights over the scraps.
It's the same in most low socioeconomic environments, where there is a higher prevalence of trauma influencing difficulty coping and what we might see as poor choices.
Trauma is an energy. At it’s peak it permeates everything in a community. It’s suggested that at a certain prevalence, it can be almost impossible for communities to recover (e.g., Cambodia or Ireland have taken many years slowly recover from events that affected the whole population). And they've had their country, culture and religions to turn to in order to cope.
European Australia is finally starting to overcome the effects of the trauma resulting from our convict history, seeking to change trauma-perpetuating behaviours like alcohol abuse, incest (1 in 4 girls and 1 in 7 boys) and domestic violence, which are largely a result of the intergenerational trauma of Britain’s very poor, many of whom were discarded to this country.
Wealth has helped with this change over the past 20-30 years, as has education, the influence of immigrants, and a maturing culture, which recognises the importance of emotional intelligence to family and community life.
Younger generations suggest a positive outlook in this regard. It may take a couple more generations before Australians are genuinely willing to address our colonial legacy.
Tough love has its place but as a general approach it’s far too simplistic. For every problem there’s an easy solution that’s wrong.
In my experience, many of those who are most intolerant of others' trauma driven coping behaviours, such as drug dependence or long-term unemployment due to mental health concerns, are those who can claim to have experienced a trauma and recovered. They have managed to ‘get over it’, and have made a choice to be a ‘lifter rather than a leaner’.
They see others who still struggle as making the choice to be leaners rather than lifters. It’s just not the case. For the most part, those who still struggle, and who make poor choices, do so because they don’t know any other way to manage. When they do find another way, they generally change.
It’s a myth, like the myth of the self-made man in most cases of the very wealthy. Most have had circumstances that facilitated this wealth. Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon would be worth more now if he’d have left his inheritance in a savings account.
I’ve seen many fathers, who have subscribed to the tough love and being a lifter rather than a leaner mentality, about face when their child becomes dependent on heroin or meth; when a daughter opens up about her heroin use being her way of coping with being sexually abused by a family member. Suddenly they’re the biggest softies and they’re volunteering at the local rehab, helping the young and old with their recovery.
Recognising the trauma experienced by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders is the first step to overcoming it. But we seem too willing to skip over this process. We expect Indigenous communities to change according to our benchmarks not their’s. We throw money at them while offering no real recognition of what they lost and think they’re pathetic because they still haven’t changed. We call them whingers when they describe the hundreds of ‘micro aggressions’ they deal with every day, as a result of less overt racism. We treat them like bludgers when they can't make they're way in a system that cares little for their world view.
It is much less about informed or empowered choice than many are suggesting. Unfortunately though the increasingly prevalent notion of 'lifters versus leaners' denies this.
As a health worker, I work with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander youth from remote communities all over the country. I see the intergenerational effects of colonisation as like a tsunami. Presently it's hard to tell whether the massive tide is still coming in, or if it's starting to go out. I like to think it's the latter, but either way, but many communities are still in the thick of it.
In terms of changing the effects of intergenerational trauma as a result of colonisation, I see it as like trench warfare. A lot go over the top but not all make it to the next trench. A few more make it to the one after that and so on, with each generation. In that sense, change is happening.
The biggest problem is the lateral violence in remote communities, which is a direct effect of this trauma, presenting itself as domestic violence, bullying and tall poppy syndrome. Many who make it to the next trench are sabotaged and end up back in the previous trench or worse.
Unfortunately, lateral violence particularly occurs when there’s not enough opportunities for everyone. When some are capable while many aren’t. When the resources are stretched to capacity everyone fights over the scraps.
It's the same in most low socioeconomic environments, where there is a higher prevalence of trauma influencing difficulty coping and what we might see as poor choices.
Trauma is an energy. At it’s peak it permeates everything in a community. It’s suggested that at a certain prevalence, it can be almost impossible for communities to recover (e.g., Cambodia or Ireland have taken many years slowly recover from events that affected the whole population). And they've had their country, culture and religions to turn to in order to cope.
European Australia is finally starting to overcome the effects of the trauma resulting from our convict history, seeking to change trauma-perpetuating behaviours like alcohol abuse, incest (1 in 4 girls and 1 in 7 boys) and domestic violence, which are largely a result of the intergenerational trauma of Britain’s very poor, many of whom were discarded to this country.
Wealth has helped with this change over the past 20-30 years, as has education, the influence of immigrants, and a maturing culture, which recognises the importance of emotional intelligence to family and community life.
Younger generations suggest a positive outlook in this regard. It may take a couple more generations before Australians are genuinely willing to address our colonial legacy.
Tough love has its place but as a general approach it’s far too simplistic. For every problem there’s an easy solution that’s wrong.
In my experience, many of those who are most intolerant of others' trauma driven coping behaviours, such as drug dependence or long-term unemployment due to mental health concerns, are those who can claim to have experienced a trauma and recovered. They have managed to ‘get over it’, and have made a choice to be a ‘lifter rather than a leaner’.
They see others who still struggle as making the choice to be leaners rather than lifters. It’s just not the case. For the most part, those who still struggle, and who make poor choices, do so because they don’t know any other way to manage. When they do find another way, they generally change.
It’s a myth, like the myth of the self-made man in most cases of the very wealthy. Most have had circumstances that facilitated this wealth. Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon would be worth more now if he’d have left his inheritance in a savings account.
I’ve seen many fathers, who have subscribed to the tough love and being a lifter rather than a leaner mentality, about face when their child becomes dependent on heroin or meth; when a daughter opens up about her heroin use being her way of coping with being sexually abused by a family member. Suddenly they’re the biggest softies and they’re volunteering at the local rehab, helping the young and old with their recovery.
Recognising the trauma experienced by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders is the first step to overcoming it. But we seem too willing to skip over this process. We expect Indigenous communities to change according to our benchmarks not their’s. We throw money at them while offering no real recognition of what they lost and think they’re pathetic because they still haven’t changed. We call them whingers when they describe the hundreds of ‘micro aggressions’ they deal with every day, as a result of less overt racism. We treat them like bludgers when they can't make they're way in a system that cares little for their world view.
What was this thread about again…Standing for the Anthem 😕
Bird is the Word
Well-known member
@Flippedy said:
Didn't say it was about you champ, just that there are alot of similarities with the comment you made… If you think i am a bigot then you are obviously not too bright then are you mate...
@guyofthetiger said:
Thanks for that…. Very informative.
There's a few posts in this thread that have taught me a thing or two... Some things I could "see" myself in my own experiences but really didn't understand.
Thanks again
GoldXR50Leroy
New member
Damned if you do, damned if you don't, an indigenous person who wants to succeed is bought back to earth by certain members of their community, I have heard respected elders such as Warren Mundine state that they don't want a hand out they just want a hand 'up' and then along comes his racist cousin putting back reconciliation another 50 years, would the media please ignore the elephant in the room.
Byron_Bay_Fan
New member
@Tiger Come Lately said:
I can well understand where you are coming from but there are other aspects of it.
In WW1 were they dying for Australia or England?
What was it Australia's business fighting in Turkey?
Does Australia's reputation suffer as a result of It joining many wars, that is killing, in conflicts that were not our business at all?
Was Australia treating it's servicemen with respect by subjecting to a high level of danger for a cause in Turkey that probably had no security importance for Australia at all?
Do Australian men respect themselves by letting themselves to be thrown in a war and risking their lives that was none of Australia's business?
I feel sorry for them more than anything else - that they let themselves get involved in a shocking mechanical war.
I stand for them out of pity that they let themselves be exploited.
simonthetigerrrr
New member
I feel the same. So many Aussie boys killed for nothing but greed.
Masterton
Well-known member
@Born tiger said:
I had to laugh at that.
GNR4LIFE
Well-known member
The Aussie soldiers in WW1 had no idea what they were getting themselves into. It was advertised as a holiday.
@Byron Bay Fan said:
You are right, in many instances most countries enter a war only because of alliance not direct threat.
But I don't think Australia's reputation or those of the soldiers that fought were tarnished because they fought with honour hence the respectful and deep letter penned to Australia and the mothers of the soldiers.
I hear and understand your thoughts but those that have passed in war right or wrong deserve more than our pity. They deserve our respect because everyone of them helped pave the way for us to live the lives that we currently do.
Byron_Bay_Fan
New member
@Tiger Come Lately said:
You are right, in many instances most countries enter a war only because of alliance not direct threat.
But I don't think Australia's reputation or those of the soldiers that fought were tarnished because they fought with honour hence the respectful and deep letter penned to Australia and the mothers of the soldiers.
I hear and understand your thoughts but those that have passed in war right or wrong deserve more than our pity. They deserve our respect because everyone of them helped pave the way for us to live the lives that we currently do.
In the case of WW2 for sure but it is debatable for most or all conflicts since then. Some conflicts actually made our situation much worse .
The invasions in in the Middle East have only made us targets of terrorists, directly because of our involvement. We were a part of destabilising the whole M/E. It has cost us lives over there and over here. Has cost us a fortune in intelligence, manpower etc etc..
Before we could travel overseas and just get shooed through customs - now they even check the gold fillings in your mouth. A lot of the refugee problem are directly related to our adventures overseas.
Strictly we were idiots for getting involved. I protested against at the time so don't blame me.
Look at what were a part of in Vietnam, spraying poisonous chemicals over the whole country with resultant birth defects, probably millions of land mines there and surrounding countries still causing casualties 50 years later, millions of crater holes have pocked the countryside making farming difficult, as well water sheds etc were bombed that were built thousands of years ago. I don't see as a proud history at all.
Sorry to say but in most case it would have been better if the boys stayed at home and we were an unaligned country.
Byron_Bay_Fan
New member
Actually I think we should keep the current anthem and flag till we stop involving in disastrous conflicts that are none of our business. When we mature and become a decent citizen country of the world then we change our emblems to represent our new future and to disassociate with the old.
happy_tiger
Well-known member
I hope Green leaves Mundine sitting on his ass after their fight , but that is why Mundine has made these comments , just trying to promote their "superfight"
As for the Aboriginals , unless you've been to a settlement you can't even comprehend
When playing football in CQ League in the early 90's Woorabinda were still part of the comp and it was an unnerving experience to travel and play there
The team bar the local copper (who played for years in their side ) were all Aboriginal and some of the comments during the game coming from the very large crowd were unnerving
talk about home ground advantage
From what I saw and the stories you heard you hope the Government has learnt from their mistakes
Throwing million of dollars at problems isn't the answer , empowering the population with education and work to help their community is the answer in the long term
Most indigeneous sports stars are far too smart to fall for Mundine's marketing campaign
As for the Aboriginals , unless you've been to a settlement you can't even comprehend
When playing football in CQ League in the early 90's Woorabinda were still part of the comp and it was an unnerving experience to travel and play there
The team bar the local copper (who played for years in their side ) were all Aboriginal and some of the comments during the game coming from the very large crowd were unnerving
talk about home ground advantage
From what I saw and the stories you heard you hope the Government has learnt from their mistakes
Throwing million of dollars at problems isn't the answer , empowering the population with education and work to help their community is the answer in the long term
Most indigeneous sports stars are far too smart to fall for Mundine's marketing campaign
Byron_Bay_Fan
New member
@happy tiger said:
I used to see the Jimmy Sharman fights in the sixties and it was reverse - the whites always had the crowd behind them.
You also have to ask why were they on a "settlement" in the first place - because they were displaced from their ancestral lands and once that occurs the results are predictable, all downhill. It is the same for indigenous people the planet round.
Fade_To_Black
New member
@Byron Bay Fan said:
In the case of WW2 for sure but it is debatable for most or all conflicts since then. Some conflicts actually made our situation much worse .
The invasions in in the Middle East have only made us targets of terrorists, directly because of our involvement. We were a part of destabilising the whole M/E. It has cost us lives over there and over here. Has cost us a fortune in intelligence, manpower etc etc..
Before we could travel overseas and just get shooed through customs - now they even check the gold fillings in your mouth. A lot of the refugee problem are directly related to our adventures overseas.
Strictly we were idiots for getting involved. I protested against at the time so don't blame me.
Look at what were a part of in Vietnam, spraying poisonous chemicals over the whole country with resultant birth defects, probably millions of land mines there and surrounding countries still causing casualties 50 years later, millions of crater holes have pocked the countryside making farming difficult, as well water sheds etc were bombed that were built thousands of years ago. I don't see as a proud history at all.
Sorry to say but in most case it would have been better if the boys stayed at home and we were an unaligned country.
You do realize that nearly all of the landmines in Vietnam were placed there by the invading North Vietnamese soldiers and the Viet Cong. How is this Australian soldiers' fault? Your view of the Vietnam conflict seems to be a tad warped, misunderstood and/or ill-informed. Pretty disgusting to disrespect our fighting forces from that time by just making up your own view of the facts.
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