Its not all about the players

[pawsandclaws1]

It is all about the players

In 2.5 years the playing group has changed significantly, yet they’re playing the same. The only constant is the coach and management. They need to go.

No mate it’s the players. They are the ones who drop balls, throw forward passes, miss tackles. We just don’t have the cattle at the moment to compete. That is slowly changing. You only need to look to the lower grades to know.

I disagree Mike. We’ve chopped and changed players a lot since Madge has arrived but unfortunately it’s made no difference. His coaching methods are antiquated and simply don’t work for the modern game. Our team is an embarrassment and he’s a large reason for it. He’s had 2.5 years, he’s failed, time to try something different. It doesn’t matter who we sign, with him at the helm we’ll never move forward.

Our lower grades success, in my opinion, is all Hartigan.

Well we disagree. Until we have actual NRL grade players results won’t change. Gladly that is happening, just not as quickly as everyone would like.

Our team now is much better than teams in previous years, but he can’t coach. Cleary got a team that was half as talented to play to their abilities, because he’s a good coach. We will never play finals with Madge as coach.

It’s a bottom 4 NRL squad. That’s the issue.

We finished higher previously with lesser squads. The problem is, he can’t coach. You bring Flanagan or another credentialed coach with an understanding of the modern game and we improve overnight.

It wouldn’t matter who the coach was, it’s a dud squad. Even Bellamy wouldn’t do any better, he be moving players on just like we are slowly.

If that’s the case, why did he sign them? 28/30 are his signings or re-signings.

You could put the Australian team under him and they’d struggle. His style is no longer relevant to the modern game.

And who are the two who aren't his signings? Very large and convenient part of the conversation left out. Remember he only cut the 27th dead wood out this offseason.

85% of the salary cap is made up of players he signed/re-signed. Of the two he didn’t sign, Mbye was a really good player under Cleary, but Madge doesn’t know how to use him or how to coach him. Packer was also effective under Cleary. Madge just can’t coach, that’s the problem.

Of course the bloke can coach, that is a silly statement.
Again players seem to escape there responsibilities to perform with effort, commitment and skill.

He USED to be able to coach. He can’t adapt his style to the modern game or the players under him. He can’t coach anymore.

Maguire can't coach anymore and we have a squad that should be camped in the top eight - both statements as ridiculous as each other.

That’s your opinion, but the bloke is done as a coach. More people are realising this each week.

More "people" like frustrated fans. Every fan of every club travelling poorly thinks the coach can't coach. Six weeks ago Des Hasler was washed up as well - but then he got his superstar player back and happy days at Manly again. No doubt the knives are out for Ricky Stuart atm too. Maguire will only last so long we all know that but let's not pretend the squad is any more than it is.

Yeah but Madge has been here almost 2.5 years. The longer he’s here the worse it gets. I can’t imagine how bad we’ll be by the end of the year. Get rid of him now, bring in Flanagan or Morris and you’d see immediate improvement.

You want Flanagan to dope them up for the win. OK

You want to stick with Madge and lose forever?

I want to stick with Madge and fix the culture and our soft underbelly where players can just bludge and leave it to someone else. This has been going on long before Madge arrived. It needs to be fixed and Madge is exactly the hard nosed coach we need to do it.

This is the concern I share with others, nothing really looks fixed though and there's still no distinct playing style. Or consistency in the team's effort and attitude. Every few games we'll see some signs of intent and motivation but our gameplan - or how we perform - often looks too lackluster to challenge the better teams.
It can't be because we're newly formed either as Bulldogs and Warriors have made many recruitment changes to their roster yet are playing more cohesively by now.
Every other team have shown some capability of applying tactics suited to the attacking style of play desired in today's game, even we have once or twice. But most have also consequently adapted a plan to counterattack or restrain the opposition. We come across as clueless and stuck at times.

We don't appear too dissimilar to Raiders who are talented enough but seem reluctant or lost in improvising. I believe there's some x factor in the team but it's like we don't know how to use it effectively. Laurie and Doueihi are great competitors with some vision, Stefano and Mikaele are a real handful and Brooks and Liddle are made for the game. However there's little evidence we have pieced together a suitable gameplan, to make it work. We've shifted players all year long and the further it goes the more uncoordinated or clumsy we look as a team. So its like are we actually moving away from what our best team looks like or do we even know who they are at this point?

*Also just to clarify but my interpretation of fixed is using the Cowboys in comparison. Payten has seemingly devised strategies which allow Cowboys to defend collaboratively and brought out all their attacking strengths.

It’s built into the culture of the West’s Tigers. Play crap, bludge enough and the coach will get the blame. The coach will get sacked and the players are never held responsible and so the cycle continues.

Sack Madge now and I can almost guarantee people will be complaining about the next coach in 2 years time because the players aren’t performing. Why is that? Because they don’t have to, they can just go through the motions because they are not responsible. The coach will be and we will repeat the cycle again for the next 10 years.

The cycle needs to be broken now and Madge is the coach to do it. The culture needs to change to a winning culture, sacking the coach every couple of years creates the exact opposite culture.

Cleary had us performing against the best teams. We beat the Storm. Maguire is not at his coaching level.

That was 6 rounds mate. 18 wins from 43 games (42%) which is barely better than Madge has with Tigers now.

We had some great results under Cleary and he has taken his coaching to a even higher level at the Panthers . My expectations are not unrealistic. I consider an improvement in our on-field performance to be acceptable, if wins are not possible. This has not occurred and quite the opposite may be happening. In any case, even the most rusted on Maguire fan must now be quietly having serious misgivngs.

Do you remember these results?

2018
Aug 30th Round 25 A South Sydney L 10 - 51 I Cleary C Lawrence ANZ - finals qualifier
Jul 27th Round 20 A Canterbury L 4 - 16 I Cleary E Taylor ANZ
Jun 10th Round 14 A Cronulla L 16 - 24 I Cleary J Reynolds Southern Cross 13,093 9th View
Jun 17th Round 15 H Canberra L 12 - 48 I Cleary R Packer Campbelltown 10,237 10th View
Jul 1st Round 16 H Gold Coast Titans L 12 - 30 I Cleary E Taylor Leichhardt 16,984 10th

2017
Mar 12th Round 2 H Penrith L 2 - 36 J Taylor A Woods Campbelltown 12,232 12th View
Mar 19th Round 3 A Canberra L 6 - 46 J Taylor A Woods GIO Stadium 15,628 16th View
Mar 26th Round 4 H Melbourne L 14 - 22 A Webster A Woods Leichhardt 12,649 16th View
Apr 2nd Round 5 H St George Illawarra L 6 - 28 A Webster A Woods ANZ 13,172 16th View
Apr 17th Round 7 A Parramatta L 22 - 26 I Cleary A Woods ANZ 28,249 14th View
Apr 29th Round 9 H Cronulla L 16 - 22 I Cleary A Woods Leichhardt 13,405 14th View
May 12th Round 10 H South Sydney L 8 - 28 I Cleary C Lawrence ANZ 12,213 15th View
May 19th Round 11 A Brisbane L 0 - 36 I Cleary A Woods Suncorp 21,197 15th View
Jun 3rd Round 13 A St George Illawarra L 12 - 16 I Cleary A Woods ANZ 12,983 15th View
Jun 11th Round 14 H Sydney L 18 - 40 I Cleary A Woods Campbelltown 10,066 15th View
Jun 17th Round 15 A Cronulla L 22 - 24 I Cleary E Taylor Southern Cross 11,695 16th View
Jun 23rd Round 16 H Gold Coast Titans L 14 - 26 I Cleary A Woods Campbelltown 6,891 16th View
Jul 16th Round 19 A Manly Warringah L 16 - 28 I Cleary A Woods Lottoland 14,128 15th View
Jul 23rd Round 20 H Parramatta L 16 - 17 I Cleary A Woods ANZ 30,901 15th

I do. I believed we had good performances in us and Cleary knew how to coach. The depth of feeling resulting from his departure was not only about the manner in which he departed but also the realisation we lost a very good coach.

 

[pawsandclaws1]

Let's stop the blame shifting. What other club other than WTs would out up with the miserable results Maguire has achieved to date? That is part of the culture issue itself!

Parramatta
Raiders
Titans
Warriors
Dragons

Once you start cutting coaches due to lack of results, you sort of can't stop unless the club jags a win here and there.

Coaches survive by their results. All of those clubs bar one have defeated WTs. Had we shown an improvement in our performances demonstrating that we are on an upward trajectory, that would give hope. Sadly it's not the case.

No the question was what other club would put up with the miserable results. Very easy to show a run of very bad results where the above-mentioned clubs didn't cut their coach, and that's without even trawling all the results of all the clubs in the last 10 or so year

I'd enjoy being in those clubs' positions. They have far more to hope for than we do. It's not only that we lose, but the manner in which we lose. Our defence capitulates and that is on the coach.

 

[Telltails]

Let's stop the blame shifting. What other club other than WTs would out up with the miserable results Maguire has achieved to date? That is part of the culture issue itself!

Parramatta
Raiders
Titans
Warriors
Dragons

Once you start cutting coaches due to lack of results, you sort of can't stop unless the club jags a win here and there.

Coaches survive by their results. All of those clubs bar one have defeated WTs. Had we shown an improvement in our performances demonstrating that we are on an upward trajectory, that would give hope. Sadly it's not the case.

No the question was what other club would put up with the miserable results. Very easy to show a run of very bad results where the above-mentioned clubs didn't cut their coach, and that's without even trawling all the results of all the clubs in the last 10 or so year

I'd enjoy being in those clubs' positions. They have far more to hope for than we do. It's not only that we lose, but the manner in which we lose. Our defence capitulates and that is on the coach.

Tell Wayne Bennett that.

 

[jirskyr]

Cleary had us performing against the best teams. We beat the Storm. Maguire is not at his coaching level.

That was 6 rounds mate. 18 wins from 43 games (42%) which is barely better than Madge has with Tigers now.

We had some great results under Cleary and he has taken his coaching to a even higher level at the Panthers . My expectations are not unrealistic. I consider an improvement in our on-field performance to be acceptable, if wins are not possible. This has not occurred and quite the opposite may be happening. In any case, even the most rusted on Maguire fan must now be quietly having serious misgivngs.

Do you remember these results?

2018
Aug 30th Round 25 A South Sydney L 10 - 51 I Cleary C Lawrence ANZ - finals qualifier
Jul 27th Round 20 A Canterbury L 4 - 16 I Cleary E Taylor ANZ
Jun 10th Round 14 A Cronulla L 16 - 24 I Cleary J Reynolds Southern Cross 13,093 9th View
Jun 17th Round 15 H Canberra L 12 - 48 I Cleary R Packer Campbelltown 10,237 10th View
Jul 1st Round 16 H Gold Coast Titans L 12 - 30 I Cleary E Taylor Leichhardt 16,984 10th

2017
Mar 12th Round 2 H Penrith L 2 - 36 J Taylor A Woods Campbelltown 12,232 12th View
Mar 19th Round 3 A Canberra L 6 - 46 J Taylor A Woods GIO Stadium 15,628 16th View
Mar 26th Round 4 H Melbourne L 14 - 22 A Webster A Woods Leichhardt 12,649 16th View
Apr 2nd Round 5 H St George Illawarra L 6 - 28 A Webster A Woods ANZ 13,172 16th View
Apr 17th Round 7 A Parramatta L 22 - 26 I Cleary A Woods ANZ 28,249 14th View
Apr 29th Round 9 H Cronulla L 16 - 22 I Cleary A Woods Leichhardt 13,405 14th View
May 12th Round 10 H South Sydney L 8 - 28 I Cleary C Lawrence ANZ 12,213 15th View
May 19th Round 11 A Brisbane L 0 - 36 I Cleary A Woods Suncorp 21,197 15th View
Jun 3rd Round 13 A St George Illawarra L 12 - 16 I Cleary A Woods ANZ 12,983 15th View
Jun 11th Round 14 H Sydney L 18 - 40 I Cleary A Woods Campbelltown 10,066 15th View
Jun 17th Round 15 A Cronulla L 22 - 24 I Cleary E Taylor Southern Cross 11,695 16th View
Jun 23rd Round 16 H Gold Coast Titans L 14 - 26 I Cleary A Woods Campbelltown 6,891 16th View
Jul 16th Round 19 A Manly Warringah L 16 - 28 I Cleary A Woods Lottoland 14,128 15th View
Jul 23rd Round 20 H Parramatta L 16 - 17 I Cleary A Woods ANZ 30,901 15th

I do. I believed we had good performances in us and Cleary knew how to coach. The depth of feeling resulting from his departure was not only about the manner in which he departed but also the realisation we lost a very good coach.

Again, that's not the argument you made previously. We aren't arguing whether or not Cleary can coach, nor whether or not Madge is at Cleary's level.

You said Cleary had us performing against the best sides. Technically you are probably right, we did alright against top teams under Cleary. However we did rather badly against middle and low sides, which was potentially as bad as anything Madge has dished up, given Tigers under Cleary had shown the ability to match the big sides, but the mental weakness to not be able to reproduce that form against lower-ranked teams.

I will not argue in any way that Madge is doing better than, or improving the team more than any previous coach. He isn't. I have no specific thought that he will do better in the next 2.5 years. I also had no specific feeling whether or not Ivan would succeed at Penrith, and in his first season there it was very shaky. I think Madge can coach too, under the right conditions, same as Cleary. Cleary isn't the coach that made the Panthers, he has a long enough history to prove he is a middle-of-pack coach, but Panthers were correct that he was a good coach to bring into the system and roster they already had.

Also because Ivan was Nathan's Dad - turned out to be a masterstroke that could easily have been an abject failure if his son didn't find form and had to be dropped or disciplined.

 

[851]

It is all about the players

In 2.5 years the playing group has changed significantly, yet they’re playing the same. The only constant is the coach and management. They need to go.

No mate it’s the players. They are the ones who drop balls, throw forward passes, miss tackles. We just don’t have the cattle at the moment to compete. That is slowly changing. You only need to look to the lower grades to know.

I disagree Mike. We’ve chopped and changed players a lot since Madge has arrived but unfortunately it’s made no difference. His coaching methods are antiquated and simply don’t work for the modern game. Our team is an embarrassment and he’s a large reason for it. He’s had 2.5 years, he’s failed, time to try something different. It doesn’t matter who we sign, with him at the helm we’ll never move forward.

Our lower grades success, in my opinion, is all Hartigan.

Well we disagree. Until we have actual NRL grade players results won’t change. Gladly that is happening, just not as quickly as everyone would like.

Our team now is much better than teams in previous years, but he can’t coach. Cleary got a team that was half as talented to play to their abilities, because he’s a good coach. We will never play finals with Madge as coach.

It’s a bottom 4 NRL squad. That’s the issue.

We finished higher previously with lesser squads. The problem is, he can’t coach. You bring Flanagan or another credentialed coach with an understanding of the modern game and we improve overnight.

It wouldn’t matter who the coach was, it’s a dud squad. Even Bellamy wouldn’t do any better, he be moving players on just like we are slowly.

If that’s the case, why did he sign them? 28/30 are his signings or re-signings.

You could put the Australian team under him and they’d struggle. His style is no longer relevant to the modern game.

Wasn’t much on offer at the time. Things are changing slowly. Anyway we are not going to agree.

Mate, he isn't a good coach. What is the game plan he is trying to implement? Worst than that though is the fact players don't want to play under him.

That is plain to see for all but the rose coloured glasses brigade, he came here spruking defence is the issue, and he would fix it. Now going on 3 years later, where we used to leak 20 points a game, it is now 30 points a game and showing no sign of reversing this horrible trend.
You can't just keep blaming the players, he had a team conceding 20 a game, he chopped and changed it to a 30 point a game team.
The players look lost, Brooks is a prime example, he never seems to know what he is supposed to do, and more often than not takes the wrong option, that is a poor game plan, or no game plan at all.
I have seen interviews of players saying they didn't want to come because of Madge, it is no myth, and it surely is plain to see with the lack of good signings.
Morris would be a breath of fresh air for this club, Mr eggshells has left the building and still we are looking no better.

 

[851]

It is all about the players

In 2.5 years the playing group has changed significantly, yet they’re playing the same. The only constant is the coach and management. They need to go.

No mate it’s the players. They are the ones who drop balls, throw forward passes, miss tackles. We just don’t have the cattle at the moment to compete. That is slowly changing. You only need to look to the lower grades to know.

I disagree Mike. We’ve chopped and changed players a lot since Madge has arrived but unfortunately it’s made no difference. His coaching methods are antiquated and simply don’t work for the modern game. Our team is an embarrassment and he’s a large reason for it. He’s had 2.5 years, he’s failed, time to try something different. It doesn’t matter who we sign, with him at the helm we’ll never move forward.

Our lower grades success, in my opinion, is all Hartigan.

Well we disagree. Until we have actual NRL grade players results won’t change. Gladly that is happening, just not as quickly as everyone would like.

Our team now is much better than teams in previous years, but he can’t coach. Cleary got a team that was half as talented to play to their abilities, because he’s a good coach. We will never play finals with Madge as coach.

It’s a bottom 4 NRL squad. That’s the issue.

We finished higher previously with lesser squads. The problem is, he can’t coach. You bring Flanagan or another credentialed coach with an understanding of the modern game and we improve overnight.

It wouldn’t matter who the coach was, it’s a dud squad. Even Bellamy wouldn’t do any better, he be moving players on just like we are slowly.

If that’s the case, why did he sign them? 28/30 are his signings or re-signings.

You could put the Australian team under him and they’d struggle. His style is no longer relevant to the modern game.

Wasn’t much on offer at the time. Things are changing slowly. Anyway we are not going to agree.

It doesn’t matter, he isn’t getting anything out of the current players. He can’t coach.

So the players aren’t being professional then. Move them on.

Not one player has improved under his guidance.

Quite a few have regressed though, that is an alarming statistic

 

[TheDaBoss]

We will make finals under Madge....

This year?

Before the warriors game i would of said yes 100%

Now im.a bit iffy atm, ill say yes for now, i think we will sneak into 8th

Next year however..gonna be a real nice yea for tigera fans imo

Lol haven't you tipped us to come first the last two years

Nothing wrong with a bit of optimism mate

Being optimistic isn't going to affect the results

I would rather be optimistic about winning than just being a downer and saying wooden spoon, etc etc.... im not that type of bloke

Hey man, if it makes you feel better about things good for you.

At the end of day we all want 1 thing...for the club to succeed

 

[FinestTigers]

With all of their large territory and supporters a highly respected coach like W Bennett still was unable to fix up the problems at the Knights,
There is no doubt, that had Madge not resigned with the WT he would have been signed up very quickly by the many other of the rivals.

Many clubs have gone through crisis but some of them have responded very well.
The Storm - still strong as
The Eels - stronger than before crisis
The Bulldogs - still strugling

But what i'm suprised about is the Sharks and since all of their dramas after their GF win they have still been able to make the finals every year?
But it seems like we haven't been able to recover from our little crisis since we let go of our GF coach T Sheens, WHY? Madge is a good coach, he has completed the majority of the necessary work and now its all about fine tuning the team.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

If these sort of defensive issues continue surely Madge has to go.
Talau and Noffa would struggle to defend in NSW cup

Who plays wing though? He tried Cini and he had a decent debut followed by an awful second game. Hoffman? Judging my the flurry of signing speculation and meetings he's clearly not satisfied with the talent he has.

And it’s good he’s trying to rectify the situation. But he’s been here 2.5 seasons, why didn’t he realise it before?

He's not really had the cap capacity to do much. Until he offloaded Reynolds and a few others he couldn't target anyone decent.

He had the money to go hard for Latrell Mitchell on more than $1m a season. That would have bought 2 pretty good wingers.

Well some of that money went on Daine Laurie. But this isn't Football Manager. You don't just have 500k and buy a winger from a list. There has to be a viable option. We've had a crack at a couple of wingers without success.

Yes but Laurie was this year and by all reports not a big contract. Last year he spent big money on Joey Leilua when he should have been looking at wingers. And this year he extends Nofo for 4 years.

The Nofa decision came from the top. Nofa was offered a fair contract over 3 years and told the exact reasons for the offer. He was not happy with his offer.

Well then that person should be fired because it was not a decision in the best interests of the club, and shows just how amateurish we are.

Can't be

The club shouldn’t be run by the sponsor.

The sponsor is the Chairman who does that ?

Easts?

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

It is all about the players

In 2.5 years the playing group has changed significantly, yet they’re playing the same. The only constant is the coach and management. They need to go.

No mate it’s the players. They are the ones who drop balls, throw forward passes, miss tackles. We just don’t have the cattle at the moment to compete. That is slowly changing. You only need to look to the lower grades to know.

I disagree Mike. We’ve chopped and changed players a lot since Madge has arrived but unfortunately it’s made no difference. His coaching methods are antiquated and simply don’t work for the modern game. Our team is an embarrassment and he’s a large reason for it. He’s had 2.5 years, he’s failed, time to try something different. It doesn’t matter who we sign, with him at the helm we’ll never move forward.

Our lower grades success, in my opinion, is all Hartigan.

Well we disagree. Until we have actual NRL grade players results won’t change. Gladly that is happening, just not as quickly as everyone would like.

Our team now is much better than teams in previous years, but he can’t coach. Cleary got a team that was half as talented to play to their abilities, because he’s a good coach. **We will never play finals with Madge as coach.**

Yes we will

Not in my lifetime.

Sorry to hear of your terminal diagnosis.

 

[avocadoontoast]

It is all about the players

In 2.5 years the playing group has changed significantly, yet they’re playing the same. The only constant is the coach and management. They need to go.

No mate it’s the players. They are the ones who drop balls, throw forward passes, miss tackles. We just don’t have the cattle at the moment to compete. That is slowly changing. You only need to look to the lower grades to know.

I disagree Mike. We’ve chopped and changed players a lot since Madge has arrived but unfortunately it’s made no difference. His coaching methods are antiquated and simply don’t work for the modern game. Our team is an embarrassment and he’s a large reason for it. He’s had 2.5 years, he’s failed, time to try something different. It doesn’t matter who we sign, with him at the helm we’ll never move forward.

Our lower grades success, in my opinion, is all Hartigan.

Well we disagree. Until we have actual NRL grade players results won’t change. Gladly that is happening, just not as quickly as everyone would like.

Our team now is much better than teams in previous years, but he can’t coach. Cleary got a team that was half as talented to play to their abilities, because he’s a good coach. **We will never play finals with Madge as coach.**

Yes we will

Not in my lifetime.

Sorry to hear of your terminal diagnosis.

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[GCfan]

It is all about the players

In 2.5 years the playing group has changed significantly, yet they’re playing the same. The only constant is the coach and management. They need to go.

No mate it’s the players. They are the ones who drop balls, throw forward passes, miss tackles. We just don’t have the cattle at the moment to compete. That is slowly changing. You only need to look to the lower grades to know.

I disagree Mike. We’ve chopped and changed players a lot since Madge has arrived but unfortunately it’s made no difference. His coaching methods are antiquated and simply don’t work for the modern game. Our team is an embarrassment and he’s a large reason for it. He’s had 2.5 years, he’s failed, time to try something different. It doesn’t matter who we sign, with him at the helm we’ll never move forward.

Our lower grades success, in my opinion, is all Hartigan.

Well we disagree. Until we have actual NRL grade players results won’t change. Gladly that is happening, just not as quickly as everyone would like.

Our team now is much better than teams in previous years, but he can’t coach. Cleary got a team that was half as talented to play to their abilities, because he’s a good coach. We will never play finals with Madge as coach.

It’s a bottom 4 NRL squad. That’s the issue.

We finished higher previously with lesser squads. The problem is, he can’t coach. You bring Flanagan or another credentialed coach with an understanding of the modern game and we improve overnight.

It wouldn’t matter who the coach was, it’s a dud squad. Even Bellamy wouldn’t do any better, he be moving players on just like we are slowly.

If that’s the case, why did he sign them? 28/30 are his signings or re-signings.

You could put the Australian team under him and they’d struggle. His style is no longer relevant to the modern game.

And who are the two who aren't his signings? Very large and convenient part of the conversation left out. Remember he only cut the 27th dead wood out this offseason.

85% of the salary cap is made up of players he signed/re-signed. Of the two he didn’t sign, Mbye was a really good player under Cleary, but Madge doesn’t know how to use him or how to coach him. Packer was also effective under Cleary. Madge just can’t coach, that’s the problem.

Of course the bloke can coach, that is a silly statement.
Again players seem to escape there responsibilities to perform with effort, commitment and skill.

He USED to be able to coach. He can’t adapt his style to the modern game or the players under him. He can’t coach anymore.

Maguire can't coach anymore and we have a squad that should be camped in the top eight - both statements as ridiculous as each other.

That’s your opinion, but the bloke is done as a coach. More people are realising this each week.

More "people" like frustrated fans. Every fan of every club travelling poorly thinks the coach can't coach. Six weeks ago Des Hasler was washed up as well - but then he got his superstar player back and happy days at Manly again. No doubt the knives are out for Ricky Stuart atm too. Maguire will only last so long we all know that but let's not pretend the squad is any more than it is.

Yeah but Madge has been here almost 2.5 years. The longer he’s here the worse it gets. I can’t imagine how bad we’ll be by the end of the year. Get rid of him now, bring in Flanagan or Morris and you’d see immediate improvement.

You want Flanagan to dope them up for the win. OK

You want to stick with Madge and lose forever?

I want to stick with Madge and fix the culture and our soft underbelly where players can just bludge and leave it to someone else. This has been going on long before Madge arrived. It needs to be fixed and Madge is exactly the hard nosed coach we need to do it.

This is the concern I share with others, nothing really looks fixed though and there's still no distinct playing style. Or consistency in the team's effort and attitude. Every few games we'll see some signs of intent and motivation but our gameplan - or how we perform - often looks too lackluster to challenge the better teams.
It can't be because we're newly formed either as Bulldogs and Warriors have made many recruitment changes to their roster yet are playing more cohesively by now.
Every other team have shown some capability of applying tactics suited to the attacking style of play desired in today's game, even we have once or twice. But most have also consequently adapted a plan to counterattack or restrain the opposition. We come across as clueless and stuck at times.

We don't appear too dissimilar to Raiders who are talented enough but seem reluctant or lost in improvising. I believe there's some x factor in the team but it's like we don't know how to use it effectively. Laurie and Doueihi are great competitors with some vision, Stefano and Mikaele are a real handful and Brooks and Liddle are made for the game. However there's little evidence we have pieced together a suitable gameplan, to make it work. We've shifted players all year long and the further it goes the more uncoordinated or clumsy we look as a team. So its like are we actually moving away from what our best team looks like or do we even know who they are at this point?

*Also just to clarify but my interpretation of fixed is using the Cowboys in comparison. Payten has seemingly devised strategies which allow Cowboys to defend collaboratively and brought out all their attacking strengths.

It’s built into the culture of the West’s Tigers. Play crap, bludge enough and the coach will get the blame. The coach will get sacked and the players are never held responsible and so the cycle continues.

Sack Madge now and I can almost guarantee people will be complaining about the next coach in 2 years time because the players aren’t performing. Why is that? Because they don’t have to, they can just go through the motions because they are not responsible. The coach will be and we will repeat the cycle again for the next 10 years.

The cycle needs to be broken now and Madge is the coach to do it. The culture needs to change to a winning culture, sacking the coach every couple of years creates the exact opposite culture.

Cleary had us performing against the best teams. We beat the Storm. Maguire is not at his coaching level.

That was 6 rounds mate. 18 wins from 43 games (42%) which is barely better than Madge has with Tigers now.

We had some great results under Cleary and he has taken his coaching to a even higher level at the Panthers . My expectations are not unrealistic. I consider an improvement in our on-field performance to be acceptable, if wins are not possible. This has not occurred and quite the opposite may be happening. In any case, even the most rusted on Maguire fan must now be quietly having serious misgivngs.

Ivan also has another level of player at his disposal to coach...through hard work and time he had a good platform to start with...our team isnt anywhere near the quality of player Ivan was given,thats why he dumped us to take an easier route to glory...Madge has to do it the hard way and with Hartigans help build his own platform to stand on...I still support Madge 100 percent on what he is trying to achieve,through hard work and honesty....

TT I admire your commitment. I doubt Maguire would have the Panthers winning as they are if he were in charge. The players at Penrith are responding to Cleary's coaching.

It’s funny, I can see both points of view regarding Madge and his ability to coach or not be able to coach. The situation with Penrith before Cleary got there was Hook had them up the pointy end of the ladder. Sure Cleary has made some changes and improvements but the work was largely done before Cleary arrived. The Panthers team has also had the benefit of playing together for some time now which has to help.

 

[BZN]

It is all about the players

In 2.5 years the playing group has changed significantly, yet they’re playing the same. The only constant is the coach and management. They need to go.

No mate it’s the players. They are the ones who drop balls, throw forward passes, miss tackles. We just don’t have the cattle at the moment to compete. That is slowly changing. You only need to look to the lower grades to know.

I disagree Mike. We’ve chopped and changed players a lot since Madge has arrived but unfortunately it’s made no difference. His coaching methods are antiquated and simply don’t work for the modern game. Our team is an embarrassment and he’s a large reason for it. He’s had 2.5 years, he’s failed, time to try something different. It doesn’t matter who we sign, with him at the helm we’ll never move forward.

Our lower grades success, in my opinion, is all Hartigan.

Well we disagree. Until we have actual NRL grade players results won’t change. Gladly that is happening, just not as quickly as everyone would like.

Our team now is much better than teams in previous years, but he can’t coach. Cleary got a team that was half as talented to play to their abilities, because he’s a good coach. We will never play finals with Madge as coach.

It’s a bottom 4 NRL squad. That’s the issue.

We finished higher previously with lesser squads. The problem is, he can’t coach. You bring Flanagan or another credentialed coach with an understanding of the modern game and we improve overnight.

It wouldn’t matter who the coach was, it’s a dud squad. Even Bellamy wouldn’t do any better, he be moving players on just like we are slowly.

If that’s the case, why did he sign them? 28/30 are his signings or re-signings.

You could put the Australian team under him and they’d struggle. His style is no longer relevant to the modern game.

Wasn’t much on offer at the time. Things are changing slowly. Anyway we are not going to agree.

Mate, he isn't a good coach. What is the game plan he is trying to implement? Worst than that though is the fact players don't want to play under him.

That is plain to see for all but the rose coloured glasses brigade, he came here spruking defence is the issue, and he would fix it. Now going on 3 years later, where we used to leak 20 points a game, it is now 30 points a game and showing no sign of reversing this horrible trend.
You can't just keep blaming the players, he had a team conceding 20 a game, he chopped and changed it to a 30 point a game team.
The players look lost, Brooks is a prime example, he never seems to know what he is supposed to do, and more often than not takes the wrong option, that is a poor game plan, or no game plan at all.
I have seen interviews of players saying they didn't want to come because of Madge, it is no myth, and it surely is plain to see with the lack of good signings.
Morris would be a breath of fresh air for this club, Mr eggshells has left the building and still we are looking no better.

G'day 851 : I'm really interested to see those interviews of the players saying they dont want to play under Madge.
Are you able to post them on here? as they would add a lot to the anti Madge argument.

 

[voice_of_reason]

Rebuilding the team is like restoring an old car.

You can fill it with bog, skimp on parts and cut corners but you'll end up with an unreliable old car which will let you down.

Sometimes you need to take it back to bare metal, cut out the rust, strip down the engine and start from scratch. It might take longer - and be painful at times - but it's the right way.

Hopefully this is what Madge is doing with us...

 

[izotope]

With all of their large territory and supporters a highly respected coach like W Bennett still was unable to fix up the problems at the Knights,
There is no doubt, that had Madge not resigned with the WT he would have been signed up very quickly by the many other of the rivals.

Many clubs have gone through crisis but some of them have responded very well.
The Storm - still strong as
The Eels - stronger than before crisis
The Bulldogs - still strugling

But what i'm suprised about is the Sharks and since all of their dramas after their GF win they have still been able to make the finals every year?
But it seems like we haven't been able to recover from our little crisis since we let go of our GF coach T Sheens, WHY? Madge is a good coach, he has completed the majority of the necessary work and now its all about fine tuning the team.

Im hopeful its draining the swamp.
As much as i would like us to be strong this year or even the next. I really feel this is effect of moving through multiple coaches since T Sheens & the impact of poor signings by Cleary.

While it seems easy on paper to just get a few quality players and your good team. I really think its building the process and culture behind it all and it will take years to flourish.

I think Madge may not even been around when we start to finally realise some long term success.

Well at least that's what i hope is happening. Otherwise we are just turning the hamster wheel to continue to be perennial losers.

Id give up another year or two if it means we will be strong for 10+ years to come (re. roosters/storm etc)

 

[BZN]

Rebuilding the team is like restoring an old car.

You can fill it with bog, skimp on parts and cut corners but you'll end up with an unreliable old car which will let you down.

Sometimes you need to take it back to bare metal, cut out the rust, strip down the engine and start from scratch. It might take longer - and be painful at times - but it's the right way.

Hopefully this is what Madge is doing with us...

Very thoughtful post VOR :+1:

 

[pawsandclaws1]

Rebuilding the team is like restoring an old car.

You can fill it with bog, skimp on parts and cut corners but you'll end up with an unreliable old car which will let you down.

Sometimes you need to take it back to bare metal, cut out the rust, strip down the engine and start from scratch. It might take longer - and be painful at times - but it's the right way.

Hopefully this is what Madge is doing with us...

Unfortunately when restoring a car that way you never know the real cost of repairs and does the repairer have the required skill to do the restoration properly without using filler incorrectly?

http://www.svcr.com.au/datsun-240z

An old Datsun 240Z under significant body restoration including floor pan repairs. Body is file finished and lead wiped, no filler. The repairers are craftsman, coachbuilders. Coachbuilders build cars by hand with the English wheel. The father did his trade at Rolls Royce and is a qualified coachbuilder, spray painter and mechanic which is all a requirement of the trade. He also played breakaway for the British Lions. Based in Crookwell - Sydney Vintage Car Restorations.

 

[851]

It is all about the players

In 2.5 years the playing group has changed significantly, yet they’re playing the same. The only constant is the coach and management. They need to go.

No mate it’s the players. They are the ones who drop balls, throw forward passes, miss tackles. We just don’t have the cattle at the moment to compete. That is slowly changing. You only need to look to the lower grades to know.

I disagree Mike. We’ve chopped and changed players a lot since Madge has arrived but unfortunately it’s made no difference. His coaching methods are antiquated and simply don’t work for the modern game. Our team is an embarrassment and he’s a large reason for it. He’s had 2.5 years, he’s failed, time to try something different. It doesn’t matter who we sign, with him at the helm we’ll never move forward.

Our lower grades success, in my opinion, is all Hartigan.

Well we disagree. Until we have actual NRL grade players results won’t change. Gladly that is happening, just not as quickly as everyone would like.

Our team now is much better than teams in previous years, but he can’t coach. Cleary got a team that was half as talented to play to their abilities, because he’s a good coach. We will never play finals with Madge as coach.

It’s a bottom 4 NRL squad. That’s the issue.

We finished higher previously with lesser squads. The problem is, he can’t coach. You bring Flanagan or another credentialed coach with an understanding of the modern game and we improve overnight.

It wouldn’t matter who the coach was, it’s a dud squad. Even Bellamy wouldn’t do any better, he be moving players on just like we are slowly.

If that’s the case, why did he sign them? 28/30 are his signings or re-signings.

You could put the Australian team under him and they’d struggle. His style is no longer relevant to the modern game.

Wasn’t much on offer at the time. Things are changing slowly. Anyway we are not going to agree.

Mate, he isn't a good coach. What is the game plan he is trying to implement? Worst than that though is the fact players don't want to play under him.

That is plain to see for all but the rose coloured glasses brigade, he came here spruking defence is the issue, and he would fix it. Now going on 3 years later, where we used to leak 20 points a game, it is now 30 points a game and showing no sign of reversing this horrible trend.
You can't just keep blaming the players, he had a team conceding 20 a game, he chopped and changed it to a 30 point a game team.
The players look lost, Brooks is a prime example, he never seems to know what he is supposed to do, and more often than not takes the wrong option, that is a poor game plan, or no game plan at all.
I have seen interviews of players saying they didn't want to come because of Madge, it is no myth, and it surely is plain to see with the lack of good signings.
Morris would be a breath of fresh air for this club, Mr eggshells has left the building and still we are looking no better.

G'day 851 : I'm really interested to see those interviews of the players saying they dont want to play under Madge.
Are you able to post them on here? as they would add a lot to the anti Madge argument.

It was on FOX, they interviewed players, maybe The Fan, and a number of players said they heard he was too hard on his players and they wouldn't play under him.
You could say the players are just too soft, but that is the perception, and the reality is he can't land a big name, or any player for that matter that has a few clubs chasing them

 

[rustycage]

It is all about the players

In 2.5 years the playing group has changed significantly, yet they’re playing the same. The only constant is the coach and management. They need to go.

No mate it’s the players. They are the ones who drop balls, throw forward passes, miss tackles. We just don’t have the cattle at the moment to compete. That is slowly changing. You only need to look to the lower grades to know.

I disagree Mike. We’ve chopped and changed players a lot since Madge has arrived but unfortunately it’s made no difference. His coaching methods are antiquated and simply don’t work for the modern game. Our team is an embarrassment and he’s a large reason for it. He’s had 2.5 years, he’s failed, time to try something different. It doesn’t matter who we sign, with him at the helm we’ll never move forward.

Our lower grades success, in my opinion, is all Hartigan.

Well we disagree. Until we have actual NRL grade players results won’t change. Gladly that is happening, just not as quickly as everyone would like.

Our team now is much better than teams in previous years, but he can’t coach. Cleary got a team that was half as talented to play to their abilities, because he’s a good coach. We will never play finals with Madge as coach.

It’s a bottom 4 NRL squad. That’s the issue.

We finished higher previously with lesser squads. The problem is, he can’t coach. You bring Flanagan or another credentialed coach with an understanding of the modern game and we improve overnight.

It wouldn’t matter who the coach was, it’s a dud squad. Even Bellamy wouldn’t do any better, he be moving players on just like we are slowly.

If that’s the case, why did he sign them? 28/30 are his signings or re-signings.

You could put the Australian team under him and they’d struggle. His style is no longer relevant to the modern game.

And who are the two who aren't his signings? Very large and convenient part of the conversation left out. Remember he only cut the 27th dead wood out this offseason.

85% of the salary cap is made up of players he signed/re-signed. Of the two he didn’t sign, Mbye was a really good player under Cleary, but Madge doesn’t know how to use him or how to coach him. Packer was also effective under Cleary. Madge just can’t coach, that’s the problem.

Of course the bloke can coach, that is a silly statement.
Again players seem to escape there responsibilities to perform with effort, commitment and skill.

He USED to be able to coach. He can’t adapt his style to the modern game or the players under him. He can’t coach anymore.

Maguire can't coach anymore and we have a squad that should be camped in the top eight - both statements as ridiculous as each other.

That’s your opinion, but the bloke is done as a coach. More people are realising this each week.

More "people" like frustrated fans. Every fan of every club travelling poorly thinks the coach can't coach. Six weeks ago Des Hasler was washed up as well - but then he got his superstar player back and happy days at Manly again. No doubt the knives are out for Ricky Stuart atm too. Maguire will only last so long we all know that but let's not pretend the squad is any more than it is.

Yeah but Madge has been here almost 2.5 years. The longer he’s here the worse it gets. I can’t imagine how bad we’ll be by the end of the year. Get rid of him now, **bring in Flanagan or Morris and you’d see immediate improvement.**

How could you possibly know that? sorry another silly statement.

Because they’re both eons better than Madge as a coach.

Be careful what you wish for.

Lol as if it could be worse. Madge is hopeless.

It could be worse. We could have Bennett.

 

[avocadoontoast]

It is all about the players

In 2.5 years the playing group has changed significantly, yet they’re playing the same. The only constant is the coach and management. They need to go.

No mate it’s the players. They are the ones who drop balls, throw forward passes, miss tackles. We just don’t have the cattle at the moment to compete. That is slowly changing. You only need to look to the lower grades to know.

I disagree Mike. We’ve chopped and changed players a lot since Madge has arrived but unfortunately it’s made no difference. His coaching methods are antiquated and simply don’t work for the modern game. Our team is an embarrassment and he’s a large reason for it. He’s had 2.5 years, he’s failed, time to try something different. It doesn’t matter who we sign, with him at the helm we’ll never move forward.

Our lower grades success, in my opinion, is all Hartigan.

Well we disagree. Until we have actual NRL grade players results won’t change. Gladly that is happening, just not as quickly as everyone would like.

Our team now is much better than teams in previous years, but he can’t coach. Cleary got a team that was half as talented to play to their abilities, because he’s a good coach. We will never play finals with Madge as coach.

It’s a bottom 4 NRL squad. That’s the issue.

We finished higher previously with lesser squads. The problem is, he can’t coach. You bring Flanagan or another credentialed coach with an understanding of the modern game and we improve overnight.

It wouldn’t matter who the coach was, it’s a dud squad. Even Bellamy wouldn’t do any better, he be moving players on just like we are slowly.

If that’s the case, why did he sign them? 28/30 are his signings or re-signings.

You could put the Australian team under him and they’d struggle. His style is no longer relevant to the modern game.

And who are the two who aren't his signings? Very large and convenient part of the conversation left out. Remember he only cut the 27th dead wood out this offseason.

85% of the salary cap is made up of players he signed/re-signed. Of the two he didn’t sign, Mbye was a really good player under Cleary, but Madge doesn’t know how to use him or how to coach him. Packer was also effective under Cleary. Madge just can’t coach, that’s the problem.

Of course the bloke can coach, that is a silly statement.
Again players seem to escape there responsibilities to perform with effort, commitment and skill.

He USED to be able to coach. He can’t adapt his style to the modern game or the players under him. He can’t coach anymore.

Maguire can't coach anymore and we have a squad that should be camped in the top eight - both statements as ridiculous as each other.

That’s your opinion, but the bloke is done as a coach. More people are realising this each week.

More "people" like frustrated fans. Every fan of every club travelling poorly thinks the coach can't coach. Six weeks ago Des Hasler was washed up as well - but then he got his superstar player back and happy days at Manly again. No doubt the knives are out for Ricky Stuart atm too. Maguire will only last so long we all know that but let's not pretend the squad is any more than it is.

Yeah but Madge has been here almost 2.5 years. The longer he’s here the worse it gets. I can’t imagine how bad we’ll be by the end of the year. Get rid of him now, **bring in Flanagan or Morris and you’d see immediate improvement.**

How could you possibly know that? sorry another silly statement.

Because they’re both eons better than Madge as a coach.

Be careful what you wish for.

Lol as if it could be worse. Madge is hopeless.

It could be worse. We could have Bennett.

Bennett is a million times the coach Madge is.