Jackson Topine takes Bulldogs to NSW Supreme Court

Status
Not open for further replies.
TheKhan said:
Imagine if this young bloke was your son. He has borderline been tortured by his employer.. it's some weird as lord of the flies stuff
Click to expand...
Exactly!

The kid signed up to be developed in a professional high-performance athletic environment - NOT to be jumped into a gang or undergo hazing for a College fraternity...

This is neanderthal stuff!
 
I get the faux outrage from people , but what was the desired outcome for this . The trainer is the roosters premiership winning training , and the roosters along with storm are/ were the poster child’s for the wrestle / grind hard edged style that dominated the last 10-15 years .
Was Jackson viewed as “soft” . Coddled maybe ?
My issue with this isn’t supposed torture…. I mean it’s a high contact sport designed around having the equivalent of a car crash Everytime you enter a collision …. But more the psychological fallout of being embarrassed in that situation . Personally I’ve been in similar situations where a trainer is trying to break you , and only you .
It’s about upstairs at a certain point .
The reality is I bet this shit happens at the storm and roosters on a weekly basis . The difference ? Players are recruited with this hard edge personality prior to this boot camp mentality.
I guess I don’t know how to feel about this . As MMA fighters would put themselves through way worse than this . It’s really a matter of consent …. Because the kid had this type of training pressed upon him . If it wasn’t for him , he didn’t really have that option to know prior to ciraldo and the trainer being employed there .
 
Lestronge said:
I get the faux outrage from people , but what was the desired outcome for this . The trainer is the roosters premiership winning training , and the roosters along with storm are/ were the poster child’s for the wrestle / grind hard edged style that dominated the last 10-15 years .
Was Jackson viewed as “soft” . Coddled maybe ?
My issue with this isn’t supposed torture…. I mean it’s a high contact sport designed around having the equivalent of a car crash Everytime you enter a collision …. But more the psychological fallout of being embarrassed in that situation . Personally I’ve been in similar situations where a trainer is trying to break you , and only you .
It’s about upstairs at a certain point .
The reality is I bet this shit happens at the storm and roosters on a weekly basis . The difference ? Players are recruited with this hard edge personality prior to this boot camp mentality.
I guess I don’t know how to feel about this . As MMA fighters would put themselves through way worse than this . It’s really a matter of consent …. Because the kid had this type of training pressed upon him . If it wasn’t for him , he didn’t really have that option to know prior to ciraldo and the trainer being employed there .
Click to expand...
Maybe you should educate yourself and read the NSW Coronial Inquest report into the death of Keith Titmuss which was found to be caused by exertional heat stress that was inadequately identified and treated by Manly training staff due to an "inappropriate and UNSAFE training session"...

MMA fighters are self-employed bottom feeders who accept the risks to compete in a "sport" with no regulation against PEDs - concussion protocols etc - there is ZERO relevant comparison between professional rugby league players and MMA fighters!!

www.smh.com.au

‘Inappropriate and unsafe’ training session before NRL player died

An intense training session on the first day of Manly’s pre-season in 2020 was beyond Keith Titmuss’ aerobic capacity, a coronial inquest into his death has heard.
www.smh.com.au www.smh.com.au

1713950443625.png
A training session during which rising NRL player Keith Titmuss collapsed and later died was “unnecessarily and inappropriately tough” for a player of his aerobic capacity, an inquest has heard.

On the final day of submissions at the inquest into the death of the former Manly forward, the NSW Coroners Court was told the first official pre-season workout posed a risk to the player given its duration and intensity.

Counsel assisting Adam Casselden, SC, made several recommendations in the court on Friday, and submitted the session that Titmuss was put through on November 23, 2020, was “objectively tough, and perceived by the players to be tough”.
GPS data from the training session showed Manly players completed a 139-minute outdoor workout before jogging to a nearby gym, described as “hot and stuffy”, for further conditioning drills.

Former Manly coach Des Hasler, who was employed at the club at the time of Titmuss’ death, last month told the inquest the player’s training load of 47 metres a minute suggested it was a moderate session.

But Casselden relied on the evidence of several expert witnesses to suggest the training, which was held days after Titmuss was deemed to have the lowest aerobic capacity of any player in the squad after a yo-yo test, was beyond an acceptable level for him after an off-season break.

“It was unnecessarily and inappropriately tough given it was the first extended training session of the new season,” Casselden said. “It did not take into account an individual player’s characteristics.
“We submit, with the benefit of hindsight, [it was an] inappropriately high level of intensity and not of a safe level or environment.”

Manly’s legal counsel, Peggy Dwyer, SC, said there was “ample evidence there was a period of gradual training and acclimatisation, and players were encouraged to put their hand up if they’re struggling”.

The inquest heard the likely cause of Titmuss’ death was exertional heatstroke. Titmuss collapsed inside the club’s Narrabeen gym and later died of cardiac arrest. He was 20.

A paramedic who treated Titmuss at the Sydney Academy of Sport said the player’s temperature of 41.9 degrees was “the hottest I’ve ever seen”.

Titmuss was also found to have a 70 per cent narrowing of one of the heart’s main arteries during an autopsy, which one expert witness, Dr Simon Quilty, described as “very unusual” in a young man.

Casselden told deputy state coroner Derek Lee no findings should deem any Manly staff or attending paramedics liable for not detecting the “unusual” exertional heatstroke in the player.

Several of Titmuss’ teammates described seeing him suffer a seizure and involuntarily howling after initially complaining of cramps.

Casselden told the court Manly staff would not have been able to identify any potential dangers of exertional heatstroke from screening results taken days before the training session, and said their response to the medical emergency was “appropriate”.
But he questioned the conditions inside the club’s gym.

Titmuss’ former teammates Josh Schuster and Moses Suli, as well as attending paramedics, described the gym as “probably the hottest I’ve ever been in”, “oppressive” and “very humid”.

There were varying witness accounts of whether the cooling fans were on in the gym or the doors open at the time of Titmuss’ collapse, but Casselden said, “it [is] possible the coaching staff did not appreciate the need for the fans to be turned on”.

Dwyer admitted the gym would have been hotter than the outdoor conditions, which reached only 24.9 degrees at nearby Terrey Hills on the day.
But she said, “if [the fans] weren’t turned on, it was because the players didn’t think it was hot or stuffy enough for them to be turned on. They were clearly there and available.”

Manly have since had air-conditioning installed in the gym.

Casselden made several recommendations for Lee to consider amid the NRL’s ongoing review of its heat policy, including mandating a 14-day period of controlled training for players returning from an off-season break and individual training programs.

He also submitted players should be screened for known risk factors to exertional heatstroke, club medical officers to be present at sessions which might provide a greater risk to players, while also having a doctor sign off on strength and conditioning programs for players returning from extended breaks.
Casselden also suggested the NRL heat policy be updated to include clear rules on both indoor and outdoor training sessions alongside game-day protocols.

Titmuss’ family also recommended to the coroner the NRL be forced to mandate the reporting of all heat-related injuries from training and game days.

Since becoming aware of Titmuss’ likely cause of death, Casselden said, “both Manly and the NRL have taken positive, proactive and immediate steps”.

“Keith was clearly a well-loved and admired young man at that club,” he said.
 
Snidest 0 said:
Where was the RLPA??

They were out in force holding hands with Nofa when his grievance was just trumped up nonsense - but this kid is forced to take individual civil legal action with no support from the player's association?
Click to expand...
Exactly! Are all NRL players members?
 
Snidest 0 said:
Maybe you should educate yourself and read the NSW Coronial Inquest report into the death of Keith Titmuss which was found to be caused by exertional heat stress that was inadequately identified and treated by Manly training staff due to an "inappropriate and UNSAFE training session"...

MMA fighters are self-employed bottom feeders who accept the risks to compete in a "sport" with no regulation against PEDs - concussion protocols etc - there is ZERO relevant comparison between professional rugby league players and MMA fighters!!

www.smh.com.au

‘Inappropriate and unsafe’ training session before NRL player died

An intense training session on the first day of Manly’s pre-season in 2020 was beyond Keith Titmuss’ aerobic capacity, a coronial inquest into his death has heard.
www.smh.com.au www.smh.com.au

View attachment 11661
A training session during which rising NRL player Keith Titmuss collapsed and later died was “unnecessarily and inappropriately tough” for a player of his aerobic capacity, an inquest has heard.

On the final day of submissions at the inquest into the death of the former Manly forward, the NSW Coroners Court was told the first official pre-season workout posed a risk to the player given its duration and intensity.

Counsel assisting Adam Casselden, SC, made several recommendations in the court on Friday, and submitted the session that Titmuss was put through on November 23, 2020, was “objectively tough, and perceived by the players to be tough”.
GPS data from the training session showed Manly players completed a 139-minute outdoor workout before jogging to a nearby gym, described as “hot and stuffy”, for further conditioning drills.

Former Manly coach Des Hasler, who was employed at the club at the time of Titmuss’ death, last month told the inquest the player’s training load of 47 metres a minute suggested it was a moderate session.

But Casselden relied on the evidence of several expert witnesses to suggest the training, which was held days after Titmuss was deemed to have the lowest aerobic capacity of any player in the squad after a yo-yo test, was beyond an acceptable level for him after an off-season break.

“It was unnecessarily and inappropriately tough given it was the first extended training session of the new season,” Casselden said. “It did not take into account an individual player’s characteristics.
“We submit, with the benefit of hindsight, [it was an] inappropriately high level of intensity and not of a safe level or environment.”

Manly’s legal counsel, Peggy Dwyer, SC, said there was “ample evidence there was a period of gradual training and acclimatisation, and players were encouraged to put their hand up if they’re struggling”.

The inquest heard the likely cause of Titmuss’ death was exertional heatstroke. Titmuss collapsed inside the club’s Narrabeen gym and later died of cardiac arrest. He was 20.

A paramedic who treated Titmuss at the Sydney Academy of Sport said the player’s temperature of 41.9 degrees was “the hottest I’ve ever seen”.

Titmuss was also found to have a 70 per cent narrowing of one of the heart’s main arteries during an autopsy, which one expert witness, Dr Simon Quilty, described as “very unusual” in a young man.

Casselden told deputy state coroner Derek Lee no findings should deem any Manly staff or attending paramedics liable for not detecting the “unusual” exertional heatstroke in the player.

Several of Titmuss’ teammates described seeing him suffer a seizure and involuntarily howling after initially complaining of cramps.

Casselden told the court Manly staff would not have been able to identify any potential dangers of exertional heatstroke from screening results taken days before the training session, and said their response to the medical emergency was “appropriate”.
But he questioned the conditions inside the club’s gym.

Titmuss’ former teammates Josh Schuster and Moses Suli, as well as attending paramedics, described the gym as “probably the hottest I’ve ever been in”, “oppressive” and “very humid”.

There were varying witness accounts of whether the cooling fans were on in the gym or the doors open at the time of Titmuss’ collapse, but Casselden said, “it [is] possible the coaching staff did not appreciate the need for the fans to be turned on”.

Dwyer admitted the gym would have been hotter than the outdoor conditions, which reached only 24.9 degrees at nearby Terrey Hills on the day.
But she said, “if [the fans] weren’t turned on, it was because the players didn’t think it was hot or stuffy enough for them to be turned on. They were clearly there and available.”

Manly have since had air-conditioning installed in the gym.

Casselden made several recommendations for Lee to consider amid the NRL’s ongoing review of its heat policy, including mandating a 14-day period of controlled training for players returning from an off-season break and individual training programs.

He also submitted players should be screened for known risk factors to exertional heatstroke, club medical officers to be present at sessions which might provide a greater risk to players, while also having a doctor sign off on strength and conditioning programs for players returning from extended breaks.
Casselden also suggested the NRL heat policy be updated to include clear rules on both indoor and outdoor training sessions alongside game-day protocols.

Titmuss’ family also recommended to the coroner the NRL be forced to mandate the reporting of all heat-related injuries from training and game days.

Since becoming aware of Titmuss’ likely cause of death, Casselden said, “both Manly and the NRL have taken positive, proactive and immediate steps”.

“Keith was clearly a well-loved and admired young man at that club,” he said.
Click to expand...
So that is the bible... the NSW scientists???
 
Snidest 0 said:
By default - the NRL pays for their membership as part of the collective bargaining agreement.
Click to expand...
Then where are they? As you said, imagine if it was your child.

I get "punishment" for arriving late to training, but to make him fight everyone else, even if he "was on the ground" and to be unable to walk afterwards. How can that be acceptable in anyone's mind?
 
AmericanHistoryX said:
So that is the bible... the NSW scientists???
Click to expand...
coroners.nsw.gov.au

Coroners Court of New South Wales

Coroners ensure that all sudden, unexpected or unexplained deaths, suspected deaths, fires and explosions are properly investigated. The State Coroners Court in Lidcombe, Sydney is the state headquarters for the coronial jurisdiction in NSW. The Coroners Court home page has links to guide...
coroners.nsw.gov.au coroners.nsw.gov.au

1713951342757.png
 
TheKhan said:
Imagine if this young bloke was your son. He has borderline been tortured by his employer.. it's some weird as lord of the flies stuff
Click to expand...
Ever watched the Tour de France. Athletes torturing themselves. Sport is not life, it is extreme. Players choose it. As long as the bloke had the right to walk away, nothing to see here.
 
Lestronge said:
I get the faux outrage from people , but what was the desired outcome for this . The trainer is the roosters premiership winning training , and the roosters along with storm are/ were the poster child’s for the wrestle / grind hard edged style that dominated the last 10-15 years .
Was Jackson viewed as “soft” . Coddled maybe ?
My issue with this isn’t supposed torture…. I mean it’s a high contact sport designed around having the equivalent of a car crash Everytime you enter a collision …. But more the psychological fallout of being embarrassed in that situation . Personally I’ve been in similar situations where a trainer is trying to break you , and only you .
It’s about upstairs at a certain point .
The reality is I bet this shit happens at the storm and roosters on a weekly basis . The difference ? Players are recruited with this hard edge personality prior to this boot camp mentality.
I guess I don’t know how to feel about this . As MMA fighters would put themselves through way worse than this . It’s really a matter of consent …. Because the kid had this type of training pressed upon him . If it wasn’t for him , he didn’t really have that option to know prior to ciraldo and the trainer being employed there .
Click to expand...
Again this is not the 80’s, this is a work place. Say what u like but it’s still a work place. No matter what u think people are softer and more sensitive these days. Typical 360 favouritism by Bwaith and the wife beater ‘this is what happens at all clubs’ coming from a known bulldogs player. This would be a completely different story if it was the tigers that did this ti a player!
Gone are the days of ridiculing players until they break infront of their peers. You watch the Gould, Ciraldo shift the blame to the trainer!
 
Suzie-Q said:
Then where are they? As you said, imagine if it was your child.

I get "punishment" for arriving late to training, but to make him fight everyone else, even if he "was on the ground" and to be unable to walk afterwards. How can that be acceptable in anyone's mind?
Click to expand...
www.foxsports.com.au

Titmuss’ family’s touching act as inquest into NRL training death nears conclusion

Titmuss’ family’s touching act as inquest into NRL training death nears conclusion
www.foxsports.com.au www.foxsports.com.au

1713951587345.png

The mother of Manly Sea Eagles player Keith Titmuss told a court her son loved the club and his “brothers in arms”, before he died after his first pre-season session.

The young forward died in hospital after suffering seizures following a cardio workout at the club’s base at Narrabeen, on Sydney’s northern beaches, on November 23, 2020.

A coronial inquiry into the incident was told the 20-year-old suffered a heart attack in hospital, with his death determined to have been the result of exertional heat exhaustion.

Titmuss’ mother and father, Lafo and Paul Titmuss, as well as sister, Zara, and brother, Jesse, wore shirts with Titmuss’ face as they entered the NSW Coroners Court.

Addressing the court, Titmuss’ mother described her son as having been “cherished” from birth and as a “paragon of virtue”, who lived his life to “completeness”.

“Keith loved Manly. He loved his brothers in arms on and off the field. He loved the and respected the training staff,” Mrs Titmuss said, flanked by a photo of her son.

“After signing the contract he had an extra bounce in his step. He finally realised his commitment and hard work to become an NRL was about to happen. 2020 was going to be his year.”

Ms Titmuss expressed her gratitude for the “clarity and understanding of the events that lead to his death”, and said the inquiry could lead to changes for paramedics and the NRL.

“We are encouraged of the NRL’s internal review and its commitments to enhancing its knowledge and understanding across all clubs, staff and players,” Ms Titmuss said.

“Specifically, they seek to prioritise heat related injuries ... We hope the findings form this inquest will be instructive not just to the NRL, but sport across Australia and worldwide.”

Deputy State Coroner Magistrate Derek Lee, who became emotional after the statement, thanked Mr Titmuss’ family for reminding court about “Keith the son, brother, and partner”.

“From these learnings something might be done to prevent a similar tragic events happening again ... but we cannot forget the reason that has happened in the first palace,” he said.

“To be so generous to share collectively your memories ... I am very much grateful for that because it again reminds us more about Keith the footballer - the son, the brother, the partner.”

1713951760566.png
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Members online

Total: 307 (members: 24, guests: 283)
Forever online: Tigergran, Geo
Back
Top