Joe Ofahengaue #240

[earl]

Don’t really think we will have much success until we make a change at the Top.

So if we change Pascoe we will be a top tier team ? Does that sound realistic ?


Yep think it would make a big difference and appoint a chairman that is not hands on with sponsorship as well.
Changes in any organization bring fresh ideas.

Personally I don't think it's realistic. I don't believe that you can just reinvigorate an organization by sacking a couple of people and everything is good. I also think Lee is only a new chairman and we've had pretty good backing from Marina Go prior to this. We've also turned over a fair number of coaches and various other positions within the club.

So I don't think your assumption stands up to some rational criticism.

I think we are in a tough sport and business and it's really hard to develop a top team. I think the two top teams recently have rorted the salary cap in Melbourne and the Rorters.

That isn't stating everything is perfect. It's just that things aren't that bad and we don't have inside information to judge the teams management.

 

[Tigerbuck63]

We wouldn't have released Josh if we didn't have Joe or someone of a similar stature lined up. The way it worked out this time was very convenient for us and stopped things getting nasty. It usually doesn't happen that conveniently.
If Joffa had a;ready signed elsewhere and there was a real gap in the market for decent props then a simple transfer fee wouldn't have been enough to get a release as our squad as a whole would have been worse off. I have no doubt we would have forced Aloiai to be present yesterday if no replacement had yet been provided or sourced.


Very convenient? Or by design? The more Madge, Pascoe et al talk about Aloiai’s departure, with specific references to JO makes me wonder if it was a conspiracy plotted by Lee, Madge, Pascoe and Hartigan? Which other forward would you want moved on? And before you answer that think about the guys who haven’t been re-signed. OK, pure speculation on my part and perhaps I’m giving these guys too much credit, but what if I’m on track with this? In which case we will possibly see Nofa throwing the toys out of the cot before Christmas. What if everything these guys are doing is by design? I mean with the full intention of getting another premiership?

Good point but you have to play finals football prior.
By design i don't think there that smart tbh players leave to be paid more elsewhere or think about this some players been getting paid overs for many years and not performing.
This is our current culture at present its like a workplace where those at the Top do little and the workers get paid less.

 

[earl]

Has our image, team and whatnot not suffered?
This is what I meant about semantics. People will sit on here and criticise others for applying opinion over fact, but will often reply in the same manner.
The fact is we have had a poor image and no opinion can dispute that.
Wasn’t really suggesting discussing all mechanisms or whatever, however like I said about the salary cap talk.

You keep stating your opinion as fact. I don't know what you mean by we have a poor image and I don't care. I don't think we do have a poor image at all. If we were a bikie gang I might believe you.

My point being that you have to talk about specific scenarios to state how did that specific issue turn out and offer an opinion on that issue. I'm not agreeing that the JA/JO issue was well handled. I'm also not stating the club is a mess. I'm yet to hear any critical information that means the club is as bad as you are implying.

The biggest fact that I've heard on hear was McIntyre not being re-signed. If this is the biggest issue the club has we are doing great.

Not to be be funny or rude but us not making the 8 for over a decade is nothing to do with my opinion.
Same applies to the other factors - the results are the more accurate indicator. So you can't really deny our struggles in these areas.

Probably should've clarified I feel we're on the up and my original post wasn't to pinpoint incompetence from our end, but rather to open the dialogue as to whether we can counterattack it - which is I why I specifically brought up the salary cap stuff.


Lauren, I agree with your dominant point. Putting forward an idea or opinion that makes sense is too often opposed, not by better opinions, but by linguistic wrestling. A point lost on some. ?

It's not the fact that you are being critical that isn't right. It's that the criticism isn't fair and rational. My impression is that some people on here catastrophize the situation and want simplistic answers.

 

[BAGNF05]

Not to be be funny or rude but us not making the 8 for over a decade is nothing to do with my opinion.

This is a fact. This fact though doesn't mean we are viewed poorly or management is incompetent.

A lot of these problems are just your perspective.

And the perspective of 99% of rugby league people I know

 

[earl]

Not to be be funny or rude but us not making the 8 for over a decade is nothing to do with my opinion.

This is a fact. This fact though doesn't mean we are viewed poorly or management is incompetent.

A lot of these problems are just your perspective.

And the perspective of 99% of rugby league people I know

Who cares ? Seriously. It's just your assessment of people you know. I know plenty of people and the last thing they do is tell me how incompetent the Tigers management are. I have a lot of friends who are also Tigers supporters.

How many people realistically talk to you every day about how incompetent the Tigers are ? I think most people have the Tigers management ability pretty low on their priorities of things to discuss.

I'd question your sample assessment but I assume you are just using hyperbole.

 

[BAGNF05]

Not to be contentious, but there are some valid points getting lost in semantics.
We've witnessed the degradation of the club, team and our image for over a decade and those quoting the club's inability to "put their foot down" should be entitled to express this on the forum, without receiving such hostility.
I also share some of this view.
It's fantastic that we've managed to recuperate or recover however it's still frustrating as hell to watch players quite capably force the hand of our club.

People stating we're on a road to nowhere until the NRL fix this may be accurate but I recall the same type of arguments about clubs getting away with rorting, so why can't this conversation be explored in the same capacity.
Teams have adjusted their operations and methods, and are more strategic in counterattacking this specifically.
So could @trippa101 AND @BAGNF05 simply be making an attempt to open the conversation with how we can manage it from within the club?

No problem with anyone posting their opinion but if it’s not based on facts, like Bagnf05 claim that Lee leaked Aloiais comments to the media then they can and should be pulled up.

It’s a public forum. Discussion of opposing opinions is the territory and healthy but it’s not healthy when people make things up to push an agenda.

Where did I make a claim of Lee leaking? I referred to his quote in the media “it becomes untenable when a player states they do not want to play for the Wests Tigers jersey”

That’s an instruction to any player hoping to take up a better offer.


My genuine apology. I got you mixed up with @Telltails , you didnt say that. Got your name mixed in because Lauren had quoted you in the post I was replying to.

My point remains the same, but with his name rather than yours.

Sweet. I’m seeing some signs of life with Lee getting on the front foot lately, just wish he thought through the comments he made about the JA scenario being untenable

 

[BAGNF05]

Not to be be funny or rude but us not making the 8 for over a decade is nothing to do with my opinion.

This is a fact. This fact though doesn't mean we are viewed poorly or management is incompetent.

A lot of these problems are just your perspective.

And the perspective of 99% of rugby league people I know

Who cares ? Seriously. It's just your assessment of people you know. I know plenty of people and the last thing they do is tell me how incompetent the Tigers management are. I have a lot of friends who are also Tigers supporters.

How many people realistically talk to you every day about how incompetent the Tigers are ? I think most people have the Tigers management ability pretty low on their priorities of things to discuss.

I'd question your sample assessment but I assume you are just using hyperbole.

I’ve been around the game all my life, as an average player at best, coach, and referee. So I know a few and I discuss it a lot. That ranges from NRL players to my wife who patrols the junior league canteen, it’s common knowledge WT are a rabble mate.

 

[Tigerbuck63]

Not to be be funny or rude but us not making the 8 for over a decade is nothing to do with my opinion.

This is a fact. This fact though doesn't mean we are viewed poorly or management is incompetent.

A lot of these problems are just your perspective.

And the perspective of 99% of rugby league people I know

Who cares ? Seriously. It's just your assessment of people you know. I know plenty of people and the last thing they do is tell me how incompetent the Tigers management are. I have a lot of friends who are also Tigers supporters.

How many people realistically talk to you every day about how incompetent the Tigers are ? I think most people have the Tigers management ability pretty low on their priorities of things to discuss.

I'd question your sample assessment but I assumobsee you are just using hyperbole.

Maybe your not mixing in the right circles and who let the dogs out mates....
Your last sentence using big words like Hyperbole - Everyone observations although might be different than yours don't make them incorrect, just stating what they think and this forum in reality is a good way of dealing with frustrations.

We will have nothing to Vent about if we play finals.

 

[Deleted member 3518]

Not to be be funny or rude but us not making the 8 for over a decade is nothing to do with my opinion.

This is a fact. This fact though doesn't mean we are viewed poorly or management is incompetent.

A lot of these problems are just your perspective.

And the perspective of 99% of rugby league people I know

Who cares ? Seriously. It's just your assessment of people you know. I know plenty of people and the last thing they do is tell me how incompetent the Tigers management are. I have a lot of friends who are also Tigers supporters.

How many people realistically talk to you every day about how incompetent the Tigers are ? I think most people have the Tigers management ability pretty low on their priorities of things to discuss.

I'd question your sample assessment but I assume you are just using hyperbole.

I’ve been around the game all my life, as an average player at best, coach, and referee. So I know a few and I discuss it a lot. That ranges from NRL players to my wife who patrols the junior league canteen, it’s common knowledge WT are a rabble mate.

Mate which district ? I think this has a bearing on where an opinion is coming from . There’s a lot of bias and things said like the “the tigers are a rabble “ and when pressed on the whys , they come up with a story from 5-10 years ago . Once someone gets an idea in thier head , it’s very rare for people to truely be open to changing it .
This was my whole point about targeting players Not affected by our past mistakes .
I don’t see how you can say we are a rabble when we are one of the only profitable teams in the comp ? To me , manly are a rabble . The sharks are a rabble . The sharks have had a good team since the late 80s yet fall into financial hardship every 5 years . Seriously , if the sway of living in the shire wasn’t there , they would have folded years ago . They have to recruit flat out , and this last crop of juniors is thier first in like 10 years with actual talent .

Another team that’s a rabble , the warriors . Have a whole country to pick from , but can never field a winning team . Have been through 4 owners as far as I can remember , and almost went out of business , when they changed thier name to NZ.
The dogs - have way too many hands in the kitchen , and haven’t fielded a decent team in 5 years , next year will be no different .
Secret bad team ...... NQ. Haven’t won anything , without a certain JT in thier squad , have the most diehard region of football fans in the world to pick from , huge corporate support , yet consistently produce rubbish . Bleed money like crazy as well . This same description applies to the dragons as well

You need to look at things objectively. Just because , you’re having conversations inside your echo chamber doesn’t mean , that it’s a fact . All it means is everyone inside that bubble has the same hive mind .

 

[earl]

it’s common knowledge WT are a rabble mate.

This isn't very scientific is it. Sorry but it's not very convincing to me.

 

[earl]

Everyone observations although might be different than yours don’t make them incorrect, just stating what they think and this forum in reality is a good way of dealing with frustrations.

I get it. People have opinions. There seems to be people complaining that they can't criticize the club but that to me isn't the issue. The issue is the criticism appears to be over the top and not factual.

Opinions don't equate to reality.

 

[Tigerbuck63]

Everyone observations although might be different than yours don’t make them incorrect, just stating what they think and this forum in reality is a good way of dealing with frustrations.

I get it. People have opinions. There seems to be people complaining that they can't criticize the club but that to me isn't the issue. The issue is the criticism appears to be over the top and not factual.

Opinions don't equate to reality.

and you can't criticize someone for having a different opinion, show others more respect than bagging them for it, just make it healthy debate, Cheers.

 

[earl]

Everyone observations although might be different than yours don’t make them incorrect, just stating what they think and this forum in reality is a good way of dealing with frustrations.

I get it. People have opinions. There seems to be people complaining that they can't criticize the club but that to me isn't the issue. The issue is the criticism appears to be over the top and not factual.

Opinions don't equate to reality.


and you can't criticize someone for having a different opinion, show others more respect than bagging them for it, just make it healthy debate, Cheers.

I think a healthy debate requires effective debating techniques such as trying to use objective facts. I personally think stating irrational opinions and making out they are facts isn't helpful. Comments along the lines of "WT are a rabble" and "Sack Pascoe and everything will be fixed" to me are comments that just don't have objective facts to back them up.

I'm not trying to politicize the discussion but it's similar to when Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon and his supporters state that the elections were fraudulent but they don't have any facts to back their opinions up. It's stated like it is a fact when it isn't.

I get that this isn't a scientific debate but I think some people should try and provide objective facts to justify their opinions rather than just expect people to buy it.

Lastly trying to be rational isn't really bagging people. It's not playing the man it's playing the ball.

 

[gallagher]

Everyone observations although might be different than yours don’t make them incorrect, just stating what they think and this forum in reality is a good way of dealing with frustrations.

I get it. People have opinions. There seems to be people complaining that they can't criticize the club but that to me isn't the issue. The issue is the criticism appears to be over the top and not factual.

Opinions don't equate to reality.


and you can't criticize someone for having a different opinion, show others more respect than bagging them for it, just make it healthy debate, Cheers.

I think a healthy debate requires effective debating techniques such as trying to use objective facts. I personally think stating irrational opinions and making out they are facts isn't helpful. Comments along the lines of "WT are a rabble" and "Sack Pascoe and everything will be fixed" to me are comments that just don't have objective facts to back them up.

I'm not trying to politicize the discussion but it's similar to when Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon and his supporters state that the elections were fraudulent but they don't have any facts to back their opinions up. It's stated like it is a fact when it isn't.

I get that this isn't a scientific debate but I think some people should try and provide objective facts to justify their opinions rather than just expect people to buy it.

Lastly trying to be rational isn't really bagging people. It's not playing the man it's playing the ball.

Show me anywhere where someone has said "Sack Pascoe and everything will be fixed"
facts lol

 

[Lauren]

Not to be be funny or rude but us not making the 8 for over a decade is nothing to do with my opinion.

This is a fact. This fact though doesn't mean we are viewed poorly or management is incompetent.

**A lot of these problems are just your perspective.**

I don't know if you're being serious or not, but these problems are a representation of the club/team and not elicited from my perspective.
It's okay that you don't feel the club has suffered degradation in any form over the years, or if you simply do not wish to speak or dwell on it.
I can respect that and respectfully move it along.

 

[Tigerbuck63]

Not to be be funny or rude but us not making the 8 for over a decade is nothing to do with my opinion.

This is a fact. This fact though doesn't mean we are viewed poorly or management is incompetent.

A lot of these problems are just your perspective.

And the perspective of 99% of rugby league people I know

Who cares ? Seriously. It's just your assessment of people you know. I know plenty of people and the last thing they do is tell me how incompetent the Tigers management are. I have a lot of friends who are also Tigers supporters.

How many people realistically talk to you every day about how incompetent the Tigers are ? I think most people have the Tigers management ability pretty low on their priorities of things to discuss.

I'd question your sample assessment but I assume you are just using hyperbole.

I’ve been around the game all my life, as an average player at best, coach, and referee. So I know a few and I discuss it a lot. That ranges from NRL players to my wife who patrols the junior league canteen, it’s common knowledge WT are a rabble mate.

Mate which district ? I think this has a bearing on where an opinion is coming from . There’s a lot of bias and things said like the “the tigers are a rabble “ and when pressed on the whys , they come up with a story from 5-10 years ago . Once someone gets an idea in thier head , it’s very rare for people to truely be open to changing it .
This was my whole point about targeting players Not affected by our past mistakes .
I don’t see how you can say we are a rabble when we are one of the only profitable teams in the comp ? To me , manly are a rabble . The sharks are a rabble . The sharks have had a good team since the late 80s yet fall into financial hardship every 5 years . Seriously , if the sway of living in the shire wasn’t there , they would have folded years ago . They have to recruit flat out , and this last crop of juniors is thier first in like 10 years with actual talent .

Another team that’s a rabble , the warriors . Have a whole country to pick from , but can never field a winning team . Have been through 4 owners as far as I can remember , and almost went out of business , when they changed thier name to NZ.
The dogs - have way too many hands in the kitchen , and haven’t fielded a decent team in 5 years , next year will be no different .
Secret bad team ...... NQ. Haven’t won anything , without a certain JT in thier squad , have the most diehard region of football fans in the world to pick from , huge corporate support , yet consistently produce rubbish . Bleed money like crazy as well . This same description applies to the dragons as well

You need to look at things objectively. Just because , you’re having conversations inside your echo chamber doesn’t mean , that it’s a fact . All it means is everyone inside that bubble has the same hive mind .

One of the most profitable clubs in the NRL????

Fact we had to get a loan from the NRL a few years.
Balmain forfeited on a loan and lost there ownership % to Wests and they were bailed out.

But a series of deals with Ben Elias has plunged the Balmain Leagues Club into inextricable debt, after it handed all its assets to its former star Test hooker.

Mr Elias has been lobbying heavily for the controversial $300 million Rozelle Village development on the club's former site, which is now before the state government's independent Planning Assessment Commission. Despite strong opposition from residents who argue that three towers, one as high as 32 storeys, are a gross overdevelopment of the site, more than 7000 letters of support for the proposal have been sent to the commission. This has been largely due to the efforts of Mr Elias, who has been greeting fans at matches and urging them to sign his petition.

What Mr Elias has failed to tell fans is that he owns a 50 per cent stake in the company behind the development, and stands to make millions if it goes ahead. And that company, which bought the club's property for $1 plus the clearing of a $23.5 million debt, is earning hundreds of thousands of dollars from crippling fees charged on loans to the club, which is back in the red to the tune of almost $9 million.

Note - This deal fell through with council not approving.

We have only just cleaned up this mess and yes we made a profit in 2019 only just every other year been a loss understandable with COVID.

I know i am going off topic but this club has been financially on its knees for many years just as well its a joint venture and West's stepped in when they did and i am happy that they control things now at least there is better direction from the board moving forward.

Ps - State of origin 2 years ago outside Lang park i did not mince words with Elias told him he is a disgrace to the club and should never be allowed in again, Grub.

 

[earl]

@tigerbuck63 - I assume that you realize that the Balmain Tigers are not the Wests Tigers. I don't understand what your point has to do with the Wests Tigers being a profitable club.

I'd add that my understanding is that very few NRL clubs are profitable. I assume when they are profitable they also only return a small amount.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/06/15/nrl-declares-money-will-flow-back-to-clubs-grassroots-after-posting-huge-surplus/

 

[Tigerbuck63]

@tigerbuck63 - I assume that you realize that the Balmain Tigers are not the Wests Tigers. I don't understand what your point has to do with the Wests Tigers being a profitable club.

I'd add that my understanding is that very few NRL clubs are profitable. I assume when they are profitable they also only return a small amount.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/06/15/nrl-declares-money-will-flow-back-to-clubs-grassroots-after-posting-huge-surplus/

So where is the surplus now after COVID.
See Beattie there who confuses newcastle with Barcelona.
I am not going to detail you a history lesson on why the club has been unsuccessful for many years.
Facts speak for themselves.

We better now over the past few years but we still have not played finals until we are a consistent performer within the 8 then we will know the club has fully evolved.

Love the comment that you don't go to Mass....Funny.

 

[gallagher]

@tigerbuck63 - I assume that you realize that the Balmain Tigers are not the Wests Tigers. I don't understand what your point has to do with the Wests Tigers being a profitable club.

I'd add that my understanding is that very few NRL clubs are profitable. I assume when they are profitable they also only return a small amount.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/06/15/nrl-declares-money-will-flow-back-to-clubs-grassroots-after-posting-huge-surplus/

Are we profitable?

 

[BAGNF05]

Not to be be funny or rude but us not making the 8 for over a decade is nothing to do with my opinion.

This is a fact. This fact though doesn't mean we are viewed poorly or management is incompetent.

A lot of these problems are just your perspective.

And the perspective of 99% of rugby league people I know

Who cares ? Seriously. It's just your assessment of people you know. I know plenty of people and the last thing they do is tell me how incompetent the Tigers management are. I have a lot of friends who are also Tigers supporters.

How many people realistically talk to you every day about how incompetent the Tigers are ? I think most people have the Tigers management ability pretty low on their priorities of things to discuss.

I'd question your sample assessment but I assume you are just using hyperbole.

I’ve been around the game all my life, as an average player at best, coach, and referee. So I know a few and I discuss it a lot. That ranges from NRL players to my wife who patrols the junior league canteen, it’s common knowledge WT are a rabble mate.

Mate which district ? I think this has a bearing on where an opinion is coming from . There’s a lot of bias and things said like the “the tigers are a rabble “ and when pressed on the whys , they come up with a story from 5-10 years ago . Once someone gets an idea in thier head , it’s very rare for people to truely be open to changing it .
This was my whole point about targeting players Not affected by our past mistakes .
I don’t see how you can say we are a rabble when we are one of the only profitable teams in the comp ? To me , manly are a rabble . The sharks are a rabble . The sharks have had a good team since the late 80s yet fall into financial hardship every 5 years . Seriously , if the sway of living in the shire wasn’t there , they would have folded years ago . They have to recruit flat out , and this last crop of juniors is thier first in like 10 years with actual talent .

Another team that’s a rabble , the warriors . Have a whole country to pick from , but can never field a winning team . Have been through 4 owners as far as I can remember , and almost went out of business , when they changed thier name to NZ.
The dogs - have way too many hands in the kitchen , and haven’t fielded a decent team in 5 years , next year will be no different .
Secret bad team ...... NQ. Haven’t won anything , without a certain JT in thier squad , have the most diehard region of football fans in the world to pick from , huge corporate support , yet consistently produce rubbish . Bleed money like crazy as well . This same description applies to the dragons as well

You need to look at things objectively. Just because , you’re having conversations inside your echo chamber doesn’t mean , that it’s a fact . All it means is everyone inside that bubble has the same hive mind .

The region I live is irrelevant mate because it’s not just hearsay, it’s week after week of player dramas, year after year of coaching issues (note I like Madge), year after year of losing our must win games after showing early glimpses of hope, and a relentless stream of players, player managers and other clubs treating us with no respect at all. Even in the recent case, when we wanted a meeting with the NRL, they said ‘in a few weeks’. Even the league shows us little respect. Nobody is making this stuff up.