Josh Addo Carr Contract Discussion

[JD Tiger]

Why pay your backup that much? Especially when other backups like Jennings and Nof are also on that much.

Is Jennings on $450k ? I find that very hard to believe.

400k, nof 450k.

He was leading tryscorer the year before (or right up there) so even though unfortunate thats believable.

 

[jirskyr]

Well yes and no. What I said was logical, and every point you made apart from that was imo correct. Each player that we approached, (if indeed we did approach any?) had a choice to either stay, go to us or go elsewhere. The ones that stayed choose to stay. Yes there were a lot of incentives to stay, and they choose those incentives rather than come to us. They could have chosen to forego those incentives, but didn’t.

I think at this stage, and I looked at the numbers a few weeks ago (and club-hoppers specifically today), it's something like 16 players have gone to new clubs 2020 and 40 have re-signed since 01/Nov/19.

So it's overwhelmingly tilted towards players not changing clubs. Your starting point is therefore trying to entice players away from their incumbent, which is more challenging than re-signing the players you already have.

You are right that we "missed out" on any player we offered a deal but who chose to stay where they were. And we'll never know what those numbers are. But also, the data tells you that player transfers are far less common than re-signing.

And it also tells you that Tigers weren't the only team that "missed out" on players who re-signed - the other 15 clubs did as well!

Furthermore, about 12 of those 16 player transfers are middle to worse footballers. ~6 of them are just 1-year try-out deals like Isaac Luke, Cameron King, Brock Lamb (who is 2 years development).

Ultimately it's how you interpret "missing out". I do not think it is flawed to consider this in the context of how many players actually do move and what kind of deals they are moving to.

 

[fibrodreaming]

Why pay your backup that much? Especially when other backups like Jennings and Nof are also on that much.

Is Jennings on $450k ? I find that very hard to believe.

400k, nof 450k.

I knew about Nofo, but that is rather disturbing paying Jennings $400k. It's only a two year deal, but it's substantial overs.

If true, I start to wonder about Madge's judgement. I always thought that offering LM $1m to play full back was a big gamble (but worth it if it paid off) but $400k for a bog average winger (below average on last year's form) seems crazy.

 

[Deleted member 3518]

All this talk about we didnt miss out on a lot of players as only so many players left their original club and went to another is flawed.

Just because they stayed with their club and didn't go to another doesnt mean we had no chance at them. Lomax stayed, but we should have still had a go at him, Brimson too. And if we did have a go at them, then we missed out, regardless of whether they choose another new club or their existing club over us.

That is absolutely illogical . Most players will stay with their current club for unders . It’s not just loyalty. It’s knowing the system , knowing role in The system , feeling secure .
So you have to pay overs to get off the starting block . Especially if youre in perpetually no mans land like the tigers . Too good to truely gut the team , but not bad enough to pull a Knights/bulldogs.
It’s also about value and next year as much as tomorrow. If you buy X player on way overs , you now have to commit to that player , and as in the case of teddy and Paps , lose a promising junior because of lack of opportunity.
Investing in youth is the smart play. Breed an environment of loyalty and trust. The storm were able to do this , as , they were lucky to have had a lot of thier ho-hum buys , perform above standard, whilst maintaining relevance . I’m talking about the Matt Orford years by the way.

Well yes and no. What I said was logical, and every point you made apart from that was imo correct. Each player that we approached, (if indeed we did approach any?) had a choice to either stay, go to us or go elsewhere. The ones that stayed choose to stay. Yes there were a lot of incentives to stay, and they choose those incentives rather than come to us. They could have chosen to forego those incentives, but didn't.

I said this before, but I think it was too early for LM to come to us. We need to do the things you have said, focus on juniors (we are), not pay overs for mediocrity (we are starting not to), start to build as a team and as a unit, and success will come and they will stay (hopefully), then I think we can add the cream like a LM.

? ? I think I misunderstood your tone. I totally agree with the Lattrell sentiments. I think the play was to appeal to his sense of legacy. But I’m not sure the “build a club around you” type legacy , ala Thurston, Fittler , Inglis etc. was what he wanted. I think he wanted to be the feature piece . Not the bricks and mortar.
I get that . I’m not sure I’d want it either.
I think we chose the wrong kids with the last batch.
Moses instead TMM .
Teddy instead of Paps.
Felise instead of Brown god even woods and groat instead of keeping Fifita and Gibbs.

My point is something went wrong in our evaluation process , that didn’t in the previous generation . I guess we have to identify the right psychological profile that matches the talent. Good luck with that by the way lol. American sports have been trying to figure out “intangibles” for 30 years .

 

[Cairnstigers]

Why pay your backup that much? Especially when other backups like Jennings and Nof are also on that much.

Is Jennings on $450k ? I find that very hard to believe.

400k, nof 450k.

I knew about Nofo, but that is rather disturbing paying Jennings $400k. It's only a two year deal, but it's substantial overs.

If true, I start to wonder about Madge's judgement. I always thought that offering LM $1m to play full back was a big gamble (but worth it if it paid off) but $400k for a bog average winger (below average on last year's form) seems crazy.

Would you say that if he was the leagues leading try scorer while playing at our club
No
He can finish a try
We just need to get it to him with a little more space

 

[fibrodreaming]

Would you say that if he was the leagues leading try scorer while playing at our club
No

You'r right, I wouldn't be saying that under those circumstances.

However, there was a reason Souths did not offer him a contract for 2019. Perhaps the reason for that relates to the point which has been made many time here that in his last season at Souths he took the final pass and fell over the line 19 times.

I'll be looking to see a substantial improvement in him this season. He was off the pace last year.

 

[kiwitiger]

i'm not sure how the salary cap works. But if there is a lot left in the cap for the tigers can they just use it to pay players currenlty on contract? so in future years we can use it to buy players?


Yes, and I think this is exactly what will happen. We also need to fill the roster spots though and I can see them being filled with development players

Apparently you cannot do that any longer!


You definitely can. I think some here are getting confused because you can no longer BACKend contracts.

if that's possible (front end) then i can only see that as a positive. Sign away end of 2020 and 2021! :face_with_cowboy_hat: :+1: :+1: :+1: :call_me_hand: :call_me_hand: :clap: :clap: :call_me_hand: :call_me_hand:


I agree with you and think that is what will happen, but the other side of that coin is we fill the rest of the roster for 2020 with cheap/development players and it could be seen as sacrificing 2020 for future years.

Sacrificing 2020 is unacceptable imo. Not good enough and questions should be asked.

im ok with it mate. tanking for future success!

What you mean we haven't been tanking for the last few years for future success? After the last 8 years if we have another bad year, it's not tanking it's just the same old WT.

 

[cochise]

I don't know how the Club can explain to members we had between $1.5 and $1.7m available to spend, and are only able to promote development players. No amount of spin could justify that,given the release of Marsters and Matterson. I'm still praying for something favourable

Pretty easy to explain actually.

Firstly we've signed 2 players - Big Lucy and Stefano, obv the latter for 2021 at this stage.

Marsters released 10/Oct/19
Matterson released 31/Oct/19
Matulino medically retired 31/Oct/19

The rep season finished on 16/Nov/19, with the Kangaroos playing their last test on 02/Nov/19.

That whole period, up to today 13/Jan/20, is 10.57 weeks. Leaving in the rep season but accounting for at least the 2 weeks of Christmas and NY that's basically 8 weeks. Taking out the rep season, i.e. your window for test match players, you only get 6 weeks.

You therefore are having to line up players who are willing and able to move clubs in a 6-8 week period, because the Tigers couldn't guarantee this cap space would be available - Marsters had to be taken on, Mats had to be rubber-stamped and Matterson they did not want to lose.

I said this before, since 01/Nov/19 only 16 players have joined new NRL clubs for 2020:
Matterson (3 years)
Enari Tuala (1 year)
Isaac Luke (1 year)
Val Holmes (6 years)
Kurt Capewell (2 years)
Brodie Croft (3 years)
Merrin (2 years)
Big Lucy (3 years)
Ryley Jacks (1 year)
Cameron King (1 year)
Zane Tetevano (2 years)
Gehamat Shibasaki (3 years)
Brock Lamb (2 years development)
Brayden Wiliame (2 years)
Jonus Pearson (2 years)
Tyrell Fuimaono (2 years)

Assuming you add Latrell this month, you honestly have 4 "bigger-name" players taking on new deals for 2020 - Latrell, Croft, Holmes and Matterson. Only 2 of those are legitimate top-tier footballers.

The rest of the signatures are middle-ground to bit-player at most.

Looking specifically at the details - Croft was a direct trade Storm to Broncos, Holmes only ever spoke with Sharks and Cowboys (according to accounts), Latrell we were right in the mix for and Matterson we had to lose.

I really don't know what you expect the club to do, it's like the cap space is burning a hole in your pocket. The point has already been made, last time we had a chunk of cap space available (arguably every time we've had a chunk of space available, casting back to 2000) we've spent it very poorly.

It has been 8 WEEKS. 8 weeks including Christmas. We went hard for Latrell, reportedly made an offer for Arrow and signed two other footballers in that period. Latrell wants to be at Souths and so does Arrow. Nobody else signed those players, just Souths.

Just because there's cap space you don't have to rush out to spend it, and it's unrealistic to expect a raft of signings in the offseason. Sometimes the offseason has horse trade, sometimes it doesn't, depending on who is available, what pieces are being shuffled around and what players/clubs are actually willing to talk terms for 2021.

Then why did we release players we had a right to keep including arguably our best player from 2019?

Releasing players without suitable replacements lined up shows a lack of planning!

Simples Cochise - Matterson did not want to be here, a lot of our players did not want him here. Training was too hard for him, he didn't like it. Lastly he was so disgruntled that he would have created a very toxic environment going into the 2020 season.

You're off your rocker if you want to keep him under those circumstances.

Masters wasn't keen to stay either - pathetic form in 2019 (even taking into account injuries) and the same coach had him for The Tigers and NZ, but was still quite happy for him to go. I'm ok with that decision.

Better off without either of them I think, even if we didn't replace them. However I feel Big Lucy will end up a better forward than Matterson in the years to come.

Keeping Masters for depth would have been better than how this played out!

Geez, some people must not watch games. Marsters for 450k, given his lack of attack, defence and goal kicking was a very poor player for us. He is very easily replacable. He wouldn't have even got a start if he was still at the club next season. Why pay your backup that much? Especially when other backups like Jennings and Nof are also on that much. We have to stop overpaying crap players.

So instead we sit here with $450k unspent, we saved nothing by releasing Masters because we haven't used his money!

 

[JD Tiger]

Well yes and no. What I said was logical, and every point you made apart from that was imo correct. Each player that we approached, (if indeed we did approach any?) had a choice to either stay, go to us or go elsewhere. The ones that stayed choose to stay. Yes there were a lot of incentives to stay, and they choose those incentives rather than come to us. They could have chosen to forego those incentives, but didn’t.

I think at this stage, and I looked at the numbers a few weeks ago (and club-hoppers specifically today), it's something like 16 players have gone to new clubs 2020 and 40 have re-signed since 01/Nov/19.

So it's overwhelmingly tilted towards players not changing clubs. Your starting point is therefore trying to entice players away from their incumbent, which is more challenging than re-signing the players you already have.

You are right that we "missed out" on any player we offered a deal but who chose to stay where they were. And we'll never know what those numbers are. But also, the data tells you that player transfers are far less common than re-signing.

And it also tells you that Tigers weren't the only team that "missed out" on players who re-signed - the other 15 clubs did as well!

Furthermore, about 12 of those 16 player transfers are middle to worse footballers. ~6 of them are just 1-year try-out deals like Isaac Luke, Cameron King, Brock Lamb (who is 2 years development).

Ultimately it's how you interpret "missing out". I do not think it is flawed to consider this in the context of how many players actually do move and what kind of deals they are moving to.

Very true, putting it like that. I like that.
So, we havent spent the cap cash we would have liked to, yet, and despite us certainly trying, circumstances were against us, so we havent necessarily failed because of a bad trait within us.

I was thinking more along the lines of we should be so good that we could entice them to our club, but that's a bit fantastical of me.

 

[balmain boy]

I don't know how the Club can explain to members we had between $1.5 and $1.7m available to spend, and are only able to promote development players. No amount of spin could justify that,given the release of Marsters and Matterson. I'm still praying for something favourable

Pretty easy to explain actually.

Firstly we've signed 2 players - Big Lucy and Stefano, obv the latter for 2021 at this stage.

Marsters released 10/Oct/19
Matterson released 31/Oct/19
Matulino medically retired 31/Oct/19

The rep season finished on 16/Nov/19, with the Kangaroos playing their last test on 02/Nov/19.

That whole period, up to today 13/Jan/20, is 10.57 weeks. Leaving in the rep season but accounting for at least the 2 weeks of Christmas and NY that's basically 8 weeks. Taking out the rep season, i.e. your window for test match players, you only get 6 weeks.

You therefore are having to line up players who are willing and able to move clubs in a 6-8 week period, because the Tigers couldn't guarantee this cap space would be available - Marsters had to be taken on, Mats had to be rubber-stamped and Matterson they did not want to lose.

I said this before, since 01/Nov/19 only 16 players have joined new NRL clubs for 2020:
Matterson (3 years)
Enari Tuala (1 year)
Isaac Luke (1 year)
Val Holmes (6 years)
Kurt Capewell (2 years)
Brodie Croft (3 years)
Merrin (2 years)
Big Lucy (3 years)
Ryley Jacks (1 year)
Cameron King (1 year)
Zane Tetevano (2 years)
Gehamat Shibasaki (3 years)
Brock Lamb (2 years development)
Brayden Wiliame (2 years)
Jonus Pearson (2 years)
Tyrell Fuimaono (2 years)

Assuming you add Latrell this month, you honestly have 4 "bigger-name" players taking on new deals for 2020 - Latrell, Croft, Holmes and Matterson. Only 2 of those are legitimate top-tier footballers.

The rest of the signatures are middle-ground to bit-player at most.

Looking specifically at the details - Croft was a direct trade Storm to Broncos, Holmes only ever spoke with Sharks and Cowboys (according to accounts), Latrell we were right in the mix for and Matterson we had to lose.

I really don't know what you expect the club to do, it's like the cap space is burning a hole in your pocket. The point has already been made, last time we had a chunk of cap space available (arguably every time we've had a chunk of space available, casting back to 2000) we've spent it very poorly.

It has been 8 WEEKS. 8 weeks including Christmas. We went hard for Latrell, reportedly made an offer for Arrow and signed two other footballers in that period. Latrell wants to be at Souths and so does Arrow. Nobody else signed those players, just Souths.

Just because there's cap space you don't have to rush out to spend it, and it's unrealistic to expect a raft of signings in the offseason. Sometimes the offseason has horse trade, sometimes it doesn't, depending on who is available, what pieces are being shuffled around and what players/clubs are actually willing to talk terms for 2021.

Then why did we release players we had a right to keep including arguably our best player from 2019?

Releasing players without suitable replacements lined up shows a lack of planning!

Simples Cochise - Matterson did not want to be here, a lot of our players did not want him here. Training was too hard for him, he didn't like it. Lastly he was so disgruntled that he would have created a very toxic environment going into the 2020 season.

You're off your rocker if you want to keep him under those circumstances.

Masters wasn't keen to stay either - pathetic form in 2019 (even taking into account injuries) and the same coach had him for The Tigers and NZ, but was still quite happy for him to go. I'm ok with that decision.

Better off without either of them I think, even if we didn't replace them. However I feel Big Lucy will end up a better forward than Matterson in the years to come.

Keeping Masters for depth would have been better than how this played out!

Geez, some people must not watch games. Marsters for 450k, given his lack of attack, defence and goal kicking was a very poor player for us. He is very easily replacable. He wouldn't have even got a start if he was still at the club next season. Why pay your backup that much? Especially when other backups like Jennings and Nof are also on that much. We have to stop overpaying crap players.

So instead we sit here with $450k unspent, we saved nothing by releasing Masters because we haven't used his money!

Yet.

 

[earl]

Now it’s fallen through I think we are floundering around trying to make up the shortfall, asking other clubs for their cast off backs, so late in the off season, but it’s just not working as players are happy to stay put, if they are able, at this late stage.

I also think we haven't lost our marbles and paid overs for the wrong players. It's harder to make signings for us because we are after talented players. We also appear to be buying juniors that may come good because you need some talented kids coming through.

 

[Tweed_Tiger]

Masters could also be still here making noise about wanting an upgrade and he would have removed close to 100k that we still have.

 

[wokesmoke]

Yep he’s only a boy; he’s not tough; he’s weak as ...; yada yada yada

Last bloke who was mentally weak is now tearing it up, will get parra to top 4 and is not far from origin

Who wins?

Not us

still mentally weak and no matter how he plays is an absolute flogbag.....

Agree but we lose - again and again and again and again.

Now we hear Souths call in business heavies to secure Latrell and we lose again and again and again

Bloody sick of it to be honest

I'm with you Steve, I'm bloody sick of it as well.

With regards to Matterson and Moses, yes they are flogs, dirtbags, dogs or whatever - it's only WT supporters who think so, the rest of the rugby league world think they're great...and yes they will still be winning.

You could form a GF team from all the players we couldn’t hang onto. Not to worry, We are now trying to buy back some of them. We need to make Tigers great again!

I thought id have fun with this. Anyone want to fill the gaps?

Tedesco
Lolohea
Suli
k naq
JAC
moses
Austin
Woods

Lodge


Matterson


Taupau
Gavet



Don’t really think that team is better than what tigers currently have though some shrewd recruitment retention would of been better

I would of kept lodge taupau JAC and teddy. Others are meh.

 

[Nelson]

Yep he’s only a boy; he’s not tough; he’s weak as ...; yada yada yada

Last bloke who was mentally weak is now tearing it up, will get parra to top 4 and is not far from origin

Who wins?

Not us

still mentally weak and no matter how he plays is an absolute flogbag.....

Agree but we lose - again and again and again and again.

Now we hear Souths call in business heavies to secure Latrell and we lose again and again and again

Bloody sick of it to be honest

I'm with you Steve, I'm bloody sick of it as well.

With regards to Matterson and Moses, yes they are flogs, dirtbags, dogs or whatever - it's only WT supporters who think so, the rest of the rugby league world think they're great...and yes they will still be winning.

You could form a GF team from all the players we couldn’t hang onto. Not to worry, We are now trying to buy back some of them. We need to make Tigers great again!

I thought id have fun with this. Anyone want to fill the gaps?

Tedesco
Lolohea
Suli
k naq
JAC
moses
Austin
Woods

Lodge


Matterson


Taupau
Gavet



Don’t really think that team is better than what tigers currently have though some shrewd recruitment retention would of been better

I would of kept lodge taupau JAC and teddy. Others are meh.

Fifita, Koroibete, Sironen, Nathan Brown, BMM, JMK at hooker...

 

[TheDaBoss]

Lament thread people

 

[wokesmoke]

Yep he’s only a boy; he’s not tough; he’s weak as ...; yada yada yada

Last bloke who was mentally weak is now tearing it up, will get parra to top 4 and is not far from origin

Who wins?

Not us

still mentally weak and no matter how he plays is an absolute flogbag.....

Agree but we lose - again and again and again and again.

Now we hear Souths call in business heavies to secure Latrell and we lose again and again and again

Bloody sick of it to be honest

I'm with you Steve, I'm bloody sick of it as well.

With regards to Matterson and Moses, yes they are flogs, dirtbags, dogs or whatever - it's only WT supporters who think so, the rest of the rugby league world think they're great...and yes they will still be winning.

You could form a GF team from all the players we couldn’t hang onto. Not to worry, We are now trying to buy back some of them. We need to make Tigers great again!

I thought id have fun with this. Anyone want to fill the gaps?

Tedesco
Lolohea
Suli
k naq
JAC
moses
Austin
Woods

Lodge


Matterson


Taupau
Gavet



Don’t really think that team is better than what tigers currently have though some shrewd recruitment retention would of been better

I would of kept lodge taupau JAC and teddy. Others are meh.

Fifita, Koroibete, Sironen, Nathan Brown, BMM, JMK at hooker...

I only went back to 2014+ for debuting tigers

 

[NT_Tiger]

I really don't understand the moaning about the dropping of Matterson. We got nothing for him, etc etc. Yes we did get something for him. Team harmony.
If you've never worked in a team you might not get that. It was absolutely clear at the end of last season that the current WT squad wanted nothing to do with Matterson. Wise decision to show him the door. He was too good for us.
Bye

 

[Russell]

Yep he’s only a boy; he’s not tough; he’s weak as ...; yada yada yada

Last bloke who was mentally weak is now tearing it up, will get parra to top 4 and is not far from origin

Who wins?

Not us

still mentally weak and no matter how he plays is an absolute flogbag.....

Agree but we lose - again and again and again and again.

Now we hear Souths call in business heavies to secure Latrell and we lose again and again and again

Bloody sick of it to be honest

I'm with you Steve, I'm bloody sick of it as well.

With regards to Matterson and Moses, yes they are flogs, dirtbags, dogs or whatever - it's only WT supporters who think so, the rest of the rugby league world think they're great...and yes they will still be winning.

You could form a GF team from all the players we couldn’t hang onto. Not to worry, We are now trying to buy back some of them. We need to make Tigers great again!

I thought id have fun with this. Anyone want to fill the gaps?

Tedesco
Lolohea
Suli
k naq
JAC
moses
Austin
Woods

Lodge


Matterson


Taupau
Gavet



Don’t really think that team is better than what tigers currently have though some shrewd recruitment retention would of been better

I would of kept lodge taupau JAC and teddy. Others are meh.

This should be in the lament thread Mods.

 

[Elderslie_Tiger]

Masters could also be still here making noise about wanting an upgrade and he would have removed close to 100k that we still have.

We lost a player who thought he was worth more than he was getting its called drawing a line in the sand

 

[jirskyr]

I thought id have fun with this. Anyone want to fill the gaps?

Too soon