LIVE game discussion. Tigers Team Vs Penrith - Trial#2

Jolls said:
I did a deep dive on this overnight (https://weststigersforum.com/threads/wests-tigers-deep-dive-of-the-week.36357/post-2232698)- putting my AD bias aside. After doing the analysis I came to the conclusion that this isn't really a question of AD or Madden and who is a better number 7.

Fans will have one of two positions:
  • If you think the team’s biggest issue has been a lack of physicality and unpredictability, then AD at halfback makes sense.
  • If you think the bigger issue has been game control, territorial discipline, and structural clarity — particularly when Luai is forced into over-management — then Jock Madden is the logical selection.
The real issue that needs to be considered is what is the root cause of our inconsistency — lack of power, or lack of control? If you answer that honestly the solution presents itself and until the club answers that honestly, they are picking names; not building a system.
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. . . . . . . and Benji's answer to this I believe is,

"I have already made up my mind and I won't be swayed."
 
hank37w said:
. . . . . . . and Benji's answer to this I believe is,

"I have already made up my mind and I won't be swayed."
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I made this assumption up front in the deep dive. The purpose of it wasn't to say who should be playing round 2, but more an analysis of what we need in a 7 and who is best suited, on paper, to provide that. The opportunity to do a like for like comparison was missed on Friday night - so what you state about Benji's decision is most likely correct.
 
WesternSuburbsBoy said:
My worry with AD is he is very much a run first player & that was evident on Friday night. Did Turuva or Starford even see the ball? KPP will be nonexistent if that's how AD is gonna play.
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My concerns also. I mentioned a couple months ago I hope we have plays designed for AD to run off KPP so we utilise KPPs skill and ADs running
 
The issue with AD is that he wants to create something every time he handles the ball. I cant recall him regularly being a link man in a sweep play consistently throughout a game and then choosing his moment. If he can get this sorted perhaps he can be a gun 7. Unlike some others on this forum i am not sold on the games he played at 7 last year as none were really typical 7 games. Perhaps the manic way he plays is because he has never had the role and was always auditioning for it hence the overplaying of his hand. Lets see how this plays out, the good thing is we do have options now in Madden, Latu and Andrews.
 
gregjm87 said:
My concerns also. I mentioned a couple months ago I hope we have plays designed for AD to run off KPP so we utilise KPPs skill and ADs running
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Can AD square up the defense to allow the space for KPP to punch through and then offload? I imagine a half who can provide that for KPP then skip around him to receive the offload would be a nice play. I can picture Latu and Madden doing it, not so much AD.

Anyway, I think I need to drop this subject now because the more I talk about it the more I'm convinced Benji is making a huge mistake, lol.
 
king_sirro said:
Can AD square up the defense to allow the space for KPP to punch through and then offload? I imagine a half who can provide that for KPP then skip around him to receive the offload would be a nice play. I can picture Latu and Madden doing it, not so much AD.

Anyway, I think I need to drop this subject now because the more I talk about it the more I'm convinced Benji is making a huge mistake, lol.
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Can he? Yes, of course. But it is not a natural play for him. It is one type of play that should be drilled into them during the preseason. It shouldn't be difficult to learn but given it's not a natural play for AD it needs be practised.
I guess if Madden was making the exact same play the question becomes has he got the speed or the strength through the hips to break through the lunging defence after he receives the offload. Just because the play is more natural for Madden he isn't necessarily better suited to it.
 
king_sirro said:
Can AD square up the defense to allow the space for KPP to punch through and then offload? I imagine a half who can provide that for KPP then skip around him to receive the offload would be a nice play. I can picture Latu and Madden doing it, not so much AD.

Anyway, I think I need to drop this subject now because the more I talk about it the more I'm convinced Benji is making a huge mistake, lol.
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We spent good money to get KPP here for a reason, if Doueihi cannot deliver good early ball to him then he should be shafted from 7, if Benji doesn't recognise it and do so, he hasn't progressed as a coach from one season to the next.

Maybe we seen Adam overplay his hand on Friday because KPP was out of the game late, then tried to do too much, just throwing that out there.

But if we don't use KPP to his strengths then he might as well have stayed at the Knights and get used as a permanent decoy, his talent should be utilized.
 
gregjm87 said:
Can he? Yes, of course. But it is not a natural play for him. It is one type of play that should be drilled into them during the preseason. It shouldn't be difficult to learn but given it's not a natural play for AD it needs be practised.
I guess if Madden was making the exact same play the question becomes has he got the speed or the strength through the hips to break through the lunging defence after he receives the offload. Just because the play is more natural for Madden he isn't necessarily better suited to it.
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This is exactly the the dilemma I expect that Benji is facing. AD and Jock have tow different sytles of play. AD = Power Play whereas Jock = orcehstrated play. As a result - despite what we would prefer FG and Cup are going to play two different styles of attacking football.

For the most part we the first 30 minutes agaisnt Penrith were similar in attack to 2025. The biggest change was in our defensive minset and trying to win the ruck. This was a big improvement over 2025.

We didn't get it right all of the time but having AD in the defensive line at half shores up that corridor. Madden, certailny doesn't have the defensive strenght of AD (when his attitude is right).

Given the FG side were playing a simplied attack there were good signs - more bodies in motion and some good shape on the left edge. AD's size and his penchant for running may lead to a few tries; however, the good teams are likely work him out quickly and bottle him, starving the right edge of quality ball. If he has worked on promoting when the defence collapses on him to negate his strength he didn't demonstrate it against Penrith. We did demonstrate this exact skill set on the left edge that resulted in a couple of meat pies.

Our right edge with AD as the link needs a lot of work - based on what was demonstrated on Friday. Let's trust that he gets enough reps in before round 2.
 
Jolls said:
This is exactly the the dilemma I expect that Benji is facing. AD and Jock have tow different sytles of play. AD = Power Play whereas Jock = orcehstrated play. As a result - despite what we would prefer FG and Cup are going to play two different styles of attacking football.

For the most part we the first 30 minutes agaisnt Penrith were similar in attack to 2025. The biggest change was in our defensive minset and trying to win the ruck. This was a big improvement over 2025.

We didn't get it right all of the time but having AD in the defensive line at half shores up that corridor. Madden, certailny doesn't have the defensive strenght of AD (when his attitude is right).

Given the FG side were playing a simplied attack there were good signs - more bodies in motion and some good shape on the left edge. AD's size and his penchant for running may lead to a few tries; however, the good teams are likely work him out quickly and bottle him, starving the right edge of quality ball. If he has worked on promoting when the defence collapses on him to negate his strength he didn't demonstrate it against Penrith. We did demonstrate this exact skill set on the left edge that resulted in a couple of meat pies.

Our right edge with AD as the link needs a lot of work - based on what was demonstrated on Friday. Let's trust that he gets enough reps in before round 2.
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With the extended bench out to 19 I would be very surprised if Jock's not on it early considering Latu isn't back for a while.

If Adam stinks up the right-side attack he would be hooked by a good coach to bring Madden on.

Lol let's not get carried away the season hasn't even started yet to be critical of him, he might surprise us all.
 
gregjm87 said:
Can he? Yes, of course. But it is not a natural play for him. It is one type of play that should be drilled into them during the preseason. It shouldn't be difficult to learn but given it's not a natural play for AD it needs be practised.
I guess if Madden was making the exact same play the question becomes has he got the speed or the strength through the hips to break through the lunging defence after he receives the offload. Just because the play is more natural for Madden he isn't necessarily better suited to it.
Click to expand...

I think Madden has the initial acceleration to do it. He is quite sharp when he puts his foot down. Obviously AD is a genuine tackle breaking ball runner. His ability to be difficult to handle carrying the ball is great. For me I think it looks like a personality thing with Doueihi. I dont see him having the personality to adjust for the team. He seems pretty settled on his own self belief of what he can do and provide, and hes backing himself to bring that. He doesn't come across as someone who gets a kick out of unleashing others while he goes somewhat unnoticed. I could be wrong on that of course.
 
Jolls said:
This is exactly the the dilemma I expect that Benji is facing. AD and Jock have tow different sytles of play. AD = Power Play whereas Jock = orcehstrated play. As a result - despite what we would prefer FG and Cup are going to play two different styles of attacking football.

For the most part we the first 30 minutes agaisnt Penrith were similar in attack to 2025. The biggest change was in our defensive minset and trying to win the ruck. This was a big improvement over 2025.

We didn't get it right all of the time but having AD in the defensive line at half shores up that corridor. Madden, certailny doesn't have the defensive strenght of AD (when his attitude is right).

Given the FG side were playing a simplied attack there were good signs - more bodies in motion and some good shape on the left edge. AD's size and his penchant for running may lead to a few tries; however, the good teams are likely work him out quickly and bottle him, starving the right edge of quality ball. If he has worked on promoting when the defence collapses on him to negate his strength he didn't demonstrate it against Penrith. We did demonstrate this exact skill set on the left edge that resulted in a couple of meat pies.

Our right edge with AD as the link needs a lot of work - based on what was demonstrated on Friday. Let's trust that he gets enough reps in before round 2.
Click to expand...
Defences need to stay on AD because he is a big body with the tendency to run. That might create space for KPP. Plus being hard to contain he got the offload to Bula.
 
Telltails said:
I can't believe the turn around in belief in Madden after one and a half games of footy against weakened opposition.
I think he was a smart buy for us but back the coaching team to decide the best option for our first 17
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Lol bit under 3 weeks to go and the nervousness is setting in already T, good to see how much we care though, enthusiasm remains the same for the club to succeed.
 
Viva_Zapata said:
Defences need to stay on AD because he is a big body with the tendency to run. That might create space for KPP. Plus being hard to contain he got the offload to Bula.
Click to expand...
That is the double edged sword with his style of play. The flip side of creating space by collapsing the defence with his running game is that he takes time and space way from, and tends to cramp, his edge. his edge. what he hasn't demonstrated yet, and that may well be by design, is his ability to dig into the line and create for his edge - that fine line between taking them on and shovelling it off at the last second makes a big difference. If he is one dimensionalthere are defensive systems that will eat up his running threat. He needs to take a leaf out of Madden's book and add it to the game he displayed on the weekend. If he doesn't we are going to be pretty ordinary in the red zone - same same as the last ten years.
 
Jolls said:
This is exactly the the dilemma I expect that Benji is facing. AD and Jock have tow different sytles of play. AD = Power Play whereas Jock = orcehstrated play. As a result - despite what we would prefer FG and Cup are going to play two different styles of attacking football.

For the most part we the first 30 minutes agaisnt Penrith were similar in attack to 2025. The biggest change was in our defensive minset and trying to win the ruck. This was a big improvement over 2025.

We didn't get it right all of the time but having AD in the defensive line at half shores up that corridor. Madden, certailny doesn't have the defensive strenght of AD (when his attitude is right).

Given the FG side were playing a simplied attack there were good signs - more bodies in motion and some good shape on the left edge. AD's size and his penchant for running may lead to a few tries; however, the good teams are likely work him out quickly and bottle him, starving the right edge of quality ball. If he has worked on promoting when the defence collapses on him to negate his strength he didn't demonstrate it against Penrith. We did demonstrate this exact skill set on the left edge that resulted in a couple of meat pies.

Our right edge with AD as the link needs a lot of work - based on what was demonstrated on Friday. Let's trust that he gets enough reps in before round 2.
Click to expand...
Imo the better half is whoever will be best able to take the responsability off Luais shoulders so he can inject himself whenever he wants. Whoever can free Luai up by taking the responsability of moving the lads around the pitch and control our general field kicking game. We saw friday night Luai will play both sides of the ruck. So imo its whoever allows him the freedom to chime in when chooses. Thats how we will get the best out of Luai.
 
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Jolls said:
I made this assumption up front in the deep dive. The purpose of it wasn't to say who should be playing round 2, but more an analysis of what we need in a 7 and who is best suited, on paper, to provide that. The opportunity to do a like for like comparison was missed on Friday night - so what you state about Benji's decision is most likely correct.
Click to expand...
Agree about the lost opportunity and feel as though Benji deliberately avoided that like for like comparison.
 
Jolls said:
That is the double edged sword with his style of play. The flip side of creating space by collapsing the defence with his running game is that he takes time and space way from, and tends to cramp, his edge. his edge. what he hasn't demonstrated yet, and that may well be by design, is his ability to dig into the line and create for his edge - that fine line between taking them on and shovelling it off at the last second makes a big difference. If he is one dimensionalthere are defensive systems that will eat up his running threat. He needs to take a leaf out of Madden's book and add it to the game he displayed on the weekend. If he doesn't we are going to be pretty ordinary in the red zone - same same as the last ten years.
Click to expand...
AD is a run first half, imo he needs to work on his timing, placement and selection of his passing game. Demonstrated perfectly by the try he set up for Bula, he hit the line and shovelled the ball out the back. Had the defender made the tackle pretty sure Bula doesnt get that ball. Though it is prob due to Douhis frame that he could get the ball out the back after the initial contact.
 
liltiger said:
Imo the better half is whoever will be best able to take the responsability off Luais shoulders so he can inject himself whenever he wants. Whoever can free Luai up by taking the responsability of moving the lads around the pitch and control our general field kicking game. We saw friday noght Luai will play both sides of the ruck. So imo its whoever allows him the freedom to chime in when chooses. Thats how we will get the best out of Luai.
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100%; that is what I pulled out of the analyisis I did overnight in the Deep Dive of the Week thread (https://weststigersforum.com/threads/wests-tigers-deep-dive-of-the-week.36357/post-2232698). Have a read and see if you agree with the assessmant or not.
 
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