OFFICIAL Pathways - KOE General Discussion

[Roar_Power]

There are no positives at the moment. Nearly every player we have in all of our squads isn't good enough to be there. There's a reason we lose every week in every grade. Our players get dominated by their opposition. Our players aren't strong enough to win the ruck, they're not skillful enough to make a break and beat their opponent, they're too slow to finish an opportunity when it arises or to chase down and opponent.

All of our lower grades are fundamentally flawed with players lacking the physical attributes or creativity to make a difference. Not a single player at the club with X factor. Not one. In. Any grade.

Yet almost every other club managed to find some, in every grade. Something is seriously wrong at the club. And I think Betsey has to pay the consequences for his massive failure.

Could I elaborate and say our opponents ran with more intensity, tried to offload, kicked Cleverley, had line speed in defence and had players who simply beat our guys one on one. Sure, but that also gets repetitive, and the root cause of why we suck is the same every week at present.
And then we create a culture not built around hard work, but handing youngsters nrl contacts on a silver platter. They think they're rock stars when they'd be in Flegg at any other (professional) club.

I admire your passion BB and understand your frustration. Its good to get dedicated insight into the lower grades and how they are performing. Your critiques leave me quite flat (for good reason) but hopefully it is something being addressed and we start getting stronger from ground up.

 

[Dazed]

There are no positives at the moment. Nearly every player we have in all of our squads isn't good enough to be there. There's a reason we lose every week in every grade. Our players get dominated by their opposition. Our players aren't strong enough to win the ruck, they're not skillful enough to make a break and beat their opponent, they're too slow to finish an opportunity when it arises or to chase down and opponent.

All of our lower grades are fundamentally flawed with players lacking the physical attributes or creativity to make a difference. Not a single player at the club with X factor. Not one. In. Any grade.

Yet almost every other club managed to find some, in every grade. Something is seriously wrong at the club. And I think Betsey has to pay the consequences for his massive failure.

Could I elaborate and say our opponents ran with more intensity, tried to offload, kicked Cleverley, had line speed in defence and had players who simply beat our guys one on one. Sure, but that also gets repetitive, and the root cause of why we suck is the same every week at present.
And then we create a culture not built around hard work, but handing youngsters nrl contacts on a silver platter. They think they're rock stars when they'd be in Flegg at any other (professional) club.

The truth is development starts at the top and should trickle down.

It's like saying, same pig different makeup, still makes it the pig!!

 

[Kelce68]

There are no positives at the moment. Nearly every player we have in all of our squads isn't good enough to be there. There's a reason we lose every week in every grade. Our players get dominated by their opposition. Our players aren't strong enough to win the ruck, they're not skillful enough to make a break and beat their opponent, they're too slow to finish an opportunity when it arises or to chase down and opponent.

All of our lower grades are fundamentally flawed with players lacking the physical attributes or creativity to make a difference. Not a single player at the club with X factor. Not one. In. Any grade.

Yet almost every other club managed to find some, in every grade. Something is seriously wrong at the club. And I think Betsey has to pay the consequences for his massive failure.

Could I elaborate and say our opponents ran with more intensity, tried to offload, kicked Cleverley, had line speed in defence and had players who simply beat our guys one on one. Sure, but that also gets repetitive, and the root cause of why we suck is the same every week at present.
And then we create a culture not built around hard work, but handing youngsters nrl contacts on a silver platter. They think they're rock stars when they'd be in Flegg at any other (professional) club.

It's difficult to dispute everything you've said in this post because a) you've said a lot and b) it's almost entirely incorrect. So let's just pull apart the first paragraph shall we?

There are no positives at the moment.

- No positives in any junior grade at the club? Ok.
Godinet, Taupau-Moors, Brookes, Tavana, Duncombe, Makasini, Havea Jr., Haywood, et al; nothing positive in those names? MWT making the GF, that's not a positive?

Nearly every player we have in all of our squads isn't good enough to be there.

- Nearly? Who, for example?

There's a reason we lose every week in every grade.

- False. This is just a joke of a statement.

All our grades have wins. Balmain SG Ball was in the Top 4 for a decent part of this season and are 5 -3. The Magpies are 50% win rate at 4-4. The MWT Johns' Cup boys made the grand final. The Lisa Fiola and Tarsha Gale sides are both 5-2 and sit in the top 4. Flegg has been patchy to start at 1-1-2 and the Matts boys have struggled, but each of the sides has 2 wins.

Our players get dominated by their opposition. Our players aren't strong enough to win the ruck, they're not skillful enough to make a break and beat their opponent, they're too slow to finish an opportunity when it arises or to chase down and opponent.

- This is just lazy, catch-all, pessimistic commentary.

I'll reiterate. For somebody who has their finger on the button around the juniors, your feedback is so hyperbolic and alarmist, its bordering on the ridiculous.

What is the benefit of shitting on EVERY player in our entire pathways system? Especially when there are little successes everywhere?

 

[Tiger Stripes]

I admire your passion BB and understand your frustration. Its good to get dedicated insight into the lower grades and how they are performing. Your critiques leave me quite flat (for good reason) but hopefully it is something being addressed and we start getting stronger from ground up.

I get frustrated too BB.
I can't afford to pay the high price of admission to see the NRL side play. So watch it on TV.
But I like to watch the lower grades [ $5 @ Lidcombe, free at Redfern] and look for upcoming talent and hopefully get a win?
However not getting very enthused at the moment, sweet FA to get enthused about.
But like you say [but pisses everybody off because you have said it so many times], the people who count don't seem to be getting the message? Small, slow, lightweight, BUT ENTHUSIASTIC wins every time, just not the games. The talent scouts need to get smarter-better or move on.

 

[Rock Hopper Steve]

You only have to look at one of the tries for the sharks last night, Briton Nikora small for a forward but carried defenders over the line to score when he had no right to.
But I ask you this given the choice at 2nd row to recruit between Nikora and Olakau'atu I know which one I would throw the money at.
The dilemma is how do you see this at a young age when scouts from every club are on the hunt, it would be difficult to know which players will continue on to 1st grade level.
We have an advantage in our large junior area good players will come through in a trickle, it's not often there is a bunch that come through together, well the lead up to 2005 an exception 20 years ago.

 

[Bellend]

The problem is not the talent or talent identification as stated previously they need to look at their skills and development policy it is lacking compared to other clubs. If the coaching is not there, why are they persisting with substandard coaching??

 

[BlackWhiteGold]

I get frustrated too BB.
I can't afford to pay the high price of admission to see the NRL side play. So watch it on TV.
But I like to watch the lower grades [ $5 @ Lidcombe, free at Redfern] and look for upcoming talent and hopefully get a win?
However not getting very enthused at the moment, sweet FA to get enthused about.
But like you say [but pisses everybody off because you have said it so many times], the people who count don't seem to be getting the message? Small, slow, lightweight, BUT ENTHUSIASTIC wins every time, just not the games. The talent scouts need to get smarter-better or move on.

I understand BB's frustrations from years of mismanagement, poor recruitment & retention & poor coaching and we all have different ways of conveying it, some put the negatives out there, others try to find the green shoots.

Firstly, We can only go off what we see & hear from the club and we still seem a bit behind other clubs in terms of a junior academy, skills development etc. I'd love the club to come out and explain how our pathways are structured in terms of skills & physical development, talent ID, coaching structures, future vision ... more detail rather than just Cubs squad & coaching announcements. Bulldogs are good at this but maybe that's just because Gus knows PR better than anyone.

Secondly, I do think we have a select group of 17-20yos who seem to possess an ingredient which suggests NRL. But it's rare to find that one who is a physical specimen, uncanny skill & x-factor and pure speed or power, that Israel Folau or Joseph Suaalii type.

IMO these are some names who I'm excited to watch develop over the next 1-3 years ...

Haemasi Makasini, Pheonix Godinet, Siotame Havea Jr, Christian Taupau-Moors, Max Taotua, Tino Tavana, Riley Oitmann, Logan Brookes-Deininger, Jared Haywood, Jekope Sovau, James Lanyon, Josh Vella ... a couple of smokeys in wingers Saint Fuatimau & Joseph Partch and prop Luani Tuifua too.

 

[Rock Hopper Steve]

The problem is not the talent or talent identification as stated previously they need to look at their skills and development policy it is lacking compared to other clubs. If the coaching is not there, why are they persisting with substandard coaching??

Unless you are part of the machine B how can you determine if the development policy is lacking or the quality of young players at the moment is in ebb, apart from the promising prospects mentioned above.

 

[Tiger Stripes]

I understand BB's frustrations from years of mismanagement, poor recruitment & retention & poor coaching and we all have different ways of conveying it, some put the negatives out there, others try to find the green shoots.

Firstly, We can only go off what we see & hear from the club and we still seem a bit behind other clubs in terms of a junior academy, skills development etc. I'd love the club to come out and explain how our pathways are structured in terms of skills & physical development, talent ID, coaching structures, future vision ... more detail rather than just Cubs squad & coaching announcements. Bulldogs are good at this but maybe that's just because Gus knows PR better than anyone.

Secondly, I do think we have a select group of 17-20yos who seem to possess an ingredient which suggests NRL. But it's rare to find that one who is a physical specimen, uncanny skill & x-factor and pure speed or power, that Israel Folau or Joseph Suaalii type.

IMO these are some names who I'm excited to watch develop over the next 1-3 years ...

Haemasi Makasini, Pheonix Godinet, Siotame Havea Jr, Christian Taupau-Moors, Max Taotua, Tino Tavana, Riley Oitmann, Logan Brookes-Deininger, Jared Haywood, Jekope Sovau, James Lanyon, Josh Vella ... a couple of smokeys in wingers Saint Fuatimau & Joseph Partch and prop Luani Tuifua too.

Always enjoy reading your views on what is in the pipeline as you are generally spot on!
My frustration I guess is that all these up 'n comer's are spread throughout about half a dozen sides, age groups, development; And not too many out 'n out stand outs?
Just frustrated we struggle to get a top notch competitive side together since H. Matthews a few years ago?
A great list by the way!

 

[Bellend]

Unless you are part of the machine B how can you determine if the development policy is lacking or the quality of young players at the moment is in ebb, apart from the promising prospects mentioned above.

Having mates sons at the tigers i hear the complaints which are minor compared to the past b/s that was around. Have seen parramatta juniors train at their Kellyville site you can see the difference.

 

[69tiger]

You only have to look at one of the tries for the sharks last night, Briton Nikora small for a forward but carried defenders over the line to score when he had no right to.
But I ask you this given the choice at 2nd row to recruit between Nikora and Olakau'atu I know which one I would throw the money at.
The dilemma is how do you see this at a young age when scouts from every club are on the hunt, it would be difficult to know which players will continue on to 1st grade level.
We have an advantage in our large junior area good players will come through in a trickle, it's not often there is a bunch that come through together, well the lead up to 2005 an exception 20 years ago.

I agree in part of what you’re saying, however Cronulla couldn’t ice that game even when it was 12 against 13– in the last two minutes to play their tackling efforts were hopeless. They didn’t shut the Raiders play down and they lost.
if that was a Tigers game and we lost like that all the Doomsday Journos and Fans would be saying the Tigers just got shot back into reality, Not much in the press today about how Cronulla blew that win.

 

[Rock Hopper Steve]

I agree in part of what you’re saying, however Cronulla couldn’t ice that game even when it was 12 against 13– in the last two minutes to play their tackling efforts were hopeless. They didn’t shut the Raiders play down and they lost.
if that was a Tigers game and we lost like that all the Doomsday Journos and Fans would be saying the Tigers just got shot back into reality, Not much in the press today about how Cronulla blew that win.

I get what you're saying it's true but what relation does it have to what I wrote, was talking about players progression and ability.

 

[69tiger]

I get what you're saying it's true but what relation does it have to what I wrote, was talking about players progression and ability.

Very true I wandered

I get what you're saying it's true but what relation does it have to what I wrote, was talking about players progression and ability.

Sorry I was bit of the point, but good point you’re making- I guess if we were lucky enough to have a look into the future how
young Juniors turn out we all would be in a great position LOL.
Lots similarities between the Nikora try and Seythorths try against the Dolphins Not sure what he was like when he was a junior and was he earmarked to eventually play NRL. —but we do have some very exciting prospects in the junior grades, hopefully they’ll make it to NRL. level
You only have to listen to Phil Gould talking about what it takes to make an NRL player -and as he said some players earmarked for greatness never make it. There’s only a very slim minority that eventually make the grade to NRL it’s a hard slog.

 

[Merlot]

Why are you such a loser? Ive been watching our list grades for a long time. Previously while our NRL squad sucked we were still very competitive in the lower grades.
This year there is no outstanding talents in our cup squad. Or in our flegg squad. All of our junior rep sides are likely to miss finals, with very few talented players pushing through the grades.

Not a single player with X factor in any of our Lower grades. No players with any outstanding physical traits.

I celebrate our wins and our promising young players and have done so for many years. At the moment we're a laughing stock, and I'm not amused. You don't seem to care, maybe that's all the wine.

Some fans want us to be better, to win games and maybe one day a competition. That's me. Some fans are happy to come last every year. That's you.

Fare enough, but history shows that basically a premier winning (lower grades). side will never morph into a winning 1st grade side. So why bag the youth. Its a strange game .We kicked rc over all in the U/20'scomp,yet apart from a few , only canberra kind of made that pay of. Money is tight ,con your locals -its the new buzz .Back on track ,negative noise for the kids is nonsense and a waste of time - only about 5% of them make it .Used to ? But times are a changing

 

[Buttface]

Fare enough, but history shows that basically a premier winning (lower grades). side will never morph into a winning 1st grade side. So why bag the youth. Its a strange game .We kicked rc over all in the U/20'scomp,yet apart from a few , only canberra kind of made that pay of. Money is tight ,con your locals -its the new buzz .Back on track ,negative noise for the kids is nonsense and a waste of time - only about 5% of them make it .Used to ? But times are a changing

It would be better if we were winning all grades though Merlot? He gets a bit negative old BB, but it’s hard not to be sometimes, especially when you’re invested in the lower grades, and Sheensy telling us all we had the best crop of juniors coming through. You’d think that would mean we start winning games across most grades, but nothing seems to have changed, still the smallest and still getting beat.

 

[Vicious]

It would be better if we were winning all grades though Merlot? He gets a bit negative old BB, but it’s hard not to be sometimes, especially when you’re invested in the lower grades, and Sheensy telling us all we had the best crop of juniors coming through. You’d think that would mean we start winning games across most grades, but nothing seems to have changed, still the smallest and still getting beat.

The issue is the percentage of players playing anywhere in our lower grades and showing gradual improvement like they should be is very low.
Why is this continually happening ?

 

[Merlot]

It would be better if we were winning all grades though Merlot? He gets a bit negative old BB, but it’s hard not to be sometimes, especially when you’re invested in the lower grades, and Sheensy telling us all we had the best crop of juniors coming through. You’d think that would mean we start winning games across most grades, but nothing seems to have changed, still the smallest and still getting beat.

Goldfish mentality All grades top of the comp-happy daze

 

[Buttface]

The issue is the percentage of players playing anywhere in our lower grades and showing gradual improvement like they should be is very low.
Why is this continually happening ?

That’s the question we all want answered.
Consistency with good people in the coaching, and talent ID positions might be a good start.

 

[Merlot]

It would be better if we were winning all grades though Merlot? He gets a bit negative old BB, but it’s hard not to be sometimes, especially when you’re invested in the lower grades, and Sheensy telling us all we had the best crop of juniors coming through. You’d think that would mean we start winning games across most grades, but nothing seems to have changed, still the smallest and still getting beat.

Sheensies 2nd coming wonder boy 's are in 1st's here , or in lower grades biding time at manly

 

[BlackWhiteGold]

Magpies lost 52-26 to Manly this afternoon. Watched the game on Bar TV and was getting excited after 15 mins that this team had turned the corner. I could say so much, mostly negative, but I don't have the time so here are a few points.

- Made Brandon Wakeham look like Adam Reynolds and Raymond Vaega always plays like Brian To'o against us.
- Reuben Porter, deadset shithouse performance, at least 2 dreadful efforts in defence for line breaks to Manly for tries, crucified a try late with an unnecessary attempted flick pass.
- We looked good when Vaka Aho, Kit Laulilii & Jaxson Rahme were on as our middles (first 20 mins, last 20 mins). All 3 played well and were our best in a well-beaten team along with Faataape.
- A number of Manly's tries were scored off poor individual efforts. Tui'tupou too far in from the wing, Faataape 1-on-1 miss, Mason blundered a kick through another try on a platter for Manly, Hope 1-on-1 miss and Porter see above.
- Faataape actually was visibly pissed at himself for the miss and dug deep to make amends & scored two strong tries.
- Tavana looks better than Mason at fullback.
- Our new backrower Elie El-Zakhem also looked good off the bench in his 1st game. Physically he looks a decent backrow depth prospect with ball skills (and more intent than Porter).
- Tui'tupou made a few handling errors too and also countered it with some strong carries and a long break. Rocks'n diamonds, older version of Junior Tupou maybe.
- Tim Johannssen via the eye test has gone a bit backwards from last season, not as many PCM and struggles to win the contact in D but effort is still there. IMO not being used right & possibly spent too much time on fitness in pre-season rather than gym for strength & power???
- Something is not working on the coaching side. On paper this side is much better than the results it is dishing out and the 'air in the team's balloon' seems to be sucked right out when things go against us in games - visible lack of intent & IQ around the 20 min of games.
- Heath Mason is on a Dev contract for this year (nowhere have I seen that he shifts to top 30 next year). He has a lot to prove over the coming months to be in the running for a top 30 IMO. At the moment, his form is more aligned to a T&T for next year.
- Thought Jaxson Rahme was very good at lock and Aho & Laulilii keep improving as our starting middles. A lot to like there.

Be interested in other's thoughts on this game.