OFFICIAL Pathways - KOE General Discussion

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Rock Hopper Steve said:
That's not right L madge was sacked mid-season 22 and Gardiner went to the riff in 23 after Sheens came in around Christmas and appointed some other KOE coach I think he had worked with before.
Sure someone else on the forum can confirm this as well.
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Wayne Lambkin an old mate of Sheens was the KOE Cup coach he appointed.
Lambkin with his extensive experience and previous connection to Westfield’s Sports seemed like a logical choice at the time, but I’m told his style of coaching is very outdated and probably a reason he has never been given an NRL role.
 
Rock Hopper Steve said:
www.zerotackle.com

Panthers confirm coaching staff for 2023

The Panthers have named two new assistant coaches.
www.zerotackle.com www.zerotackle.com
That's not right L madge was sacked mid-season 22 and Gardiner went to the riff in 23 after Sheens came in around Christmas and appointed some other KOE coach I think he had worked with before.
Sure someone else on the forum can confirm this as well.
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That was my understanding. It was Maguire who bought to/ wanted Gardiner at the club. When Maguire was sacked Gardiner moved/ or was moved on at the end of the season too. Gardner had a history with Maguire prior to Wests Tigers at Souths and as assistant coach NZ team.
 
Iron Fist said:
On the right track with what? I'm seeing plenty about Ben Gardner, as if he had some influence with what was happening at the club. Is it merely because he had the reserve grade team running third at the end of a Covid affected season?

This is the problem with the reserve grade team:
Mason
Feledy
Faataape
Lobb
Laulilii
Sukkar
Porter

Who are they missing who regularly played last season? Sullivan, Naden, Miller, and Tumeth. Otherwise, the NRL representatives are the same as last season. What's changed appears to be the part-timers. So the team is weaker. Matamua and Tumeth can't even make this team (or the club doesn't want them).

Compare that with the team currently leading the comp and the players they've already pulled into their reserve grade team this season:
Berry
Harper
Kosi
Te Mare Martin
Tannah Boyd
Lussick
Afoa
Laban
Ale
Sam Healy
Stowers-Smith

Some of those guys played in an NRL game that defeated our NRL team only a week ago.

Yeah, Gardner would turn this lot into a bunch of winners. Yeah right! They all train with NRL don't they?The depth is bad. The hangover from Sheens/McDonnell's signings lingers in this grade. After this season, with the deadwood cut adrift, you should hope it will improve. It can't be any worse than this.
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You have partly answered your own question, Gardiner had the team running 3rd with plenty of his players showing signs of gradual improvement.
Honestly Matamua has been disappointing in regards to not improving how we expected him to, but even on his worst day he walks into our current NSW Cup Team if we are being fair dinkum with our selections.
Do we expect a 29y.o Reuben Porter to show more improvement than a 22y.o Matamua as the season progresses?
Didn’t Richo say we are a Development Club?
 
Iron Fist said:
On the right track with what? I'm seeing plenty about Ben Gardner, as if he had some influence with what was happening at the club. Is it merely because he had the reserve grade team running third at the end of a Covid affected season?

This is the problem with the reserve grade team:
Mason
Feledy
Faataape
Lobb
Laulilii
Sukkar
Porter

Who are they missing who regularly played last season? Sullivan, Naden, Miller, and Tumeth. Otherwise, the NRL representatives are the same as last season. What's changed appears to be the part-timers. So the team is weaker. Matamua and Tumeth can't even make this team (or the club doesn't want them).

Our NRL team also seem to have the most NRL injuries in the past few seasons other than Souths and Roosters. So the depth is tested even more.

Compare that with the team currently leading the comp and the players they've already pulled into their reserve grade team this season:
Berry
Harper
Kosi
Te Mare Martin
Tannah Boyd
Lussick
Afoa
Laban
Ale
Sam Healy
Stowers-Smith

Some of those guys played in an NRL game that defeated our NRL team only a week ago.

Yeah, Gardner would turn this lot into a bunch of winners. Yeah right! They all train with NRL don't they?The depth is bad. The hangover from Sheens/McDonnell's signings lingers in this grade. After this season, with the deadwood cut adrift, you should hope it will improve. It can't be any worse than this.
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Impossible to tell what Gardiner could do with this mob IF, he's not here to prove himself.
 
Iron Fist said:
On the right track with what? I'm seeing plenty about Ben Gardner, as if he had some influence with what was happening at the club. Is it merely because he had the reserve grade team running third at the end of a Covid affected season?

This is the problem with the reserve grade team:
Mason
Feledy
Faataape
Lobb
Laulilii
Sukkar
Porter

Who are they missing who regularly played last season? Sullivan, Naden, Miller, and Tumeth. Otherwise, the NRL representatives are the same as last season. What's changed appears to be the part-timers. So the team is weaker. Matamua and Tumeth can't even make this team (or the club doesn't want them).

Our NRL team also seem to have the most NRL injuries in the past few seasons other than Souths and Roosters. So the depth is tested even more.

Compare that with the team currently leading the comp and the players they've already pulled into their reserve grade team this season:
Berry
Harper
Kosi
Te Mare Martin
Tannah Boyd
Lussick
Afoa
Laban
Ale
Sam Healy
Stowers-Smith

Some of those guys played in an NRL game that defeated our NRL team only a week ago.

Yeah, Gardner would turn this lot into a bunch of winners. Yeah right! They all train with NRL don't they?The depth is bad. The hangover from Sheens/McDonnell's signings lingers in this grade. After this season, with the deadwood cut adrift, you should hope it will improve. It can't be any worse than this.
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Doesn’t happen overnight though. You can’t afford to spend a lot of your cap in this area. Besides Berry staring in 23 and Martin last year with probably Boyd recruited out of a struggling Titans for a change of Scenery who in that side would be eating up a lot of the Wahs cap?
Berry, Afoa, Stowers-Smith, Laban, Ale, Kosi are juniors that have been in the system for years.
Martin would of come across on a low top 30 contract as with Harper and Boyd and Lussick and Healy would of signed second tier after getting no time at the Sharks given that Egan spends a bit of time on the sidelines from time to time.

Only some of your list of our players are taking up top 30 spots. The key is to improve the depth from an even lower level.

Noticed at SG Ball age the Roosters have a combined team, (CC and Sydney Roosters).
I think there is merit to look at that given this is an under 19s comp and majority of boys have finished school / could progress to the Flegg side once it starts.
 
Iron Fist said:
On the right track with what? I'm seeing plenty about Ben Gardner, as if he had some influence with what was happening at the club. Is it merely because he had the reserve grade team running third at the end of a Covid affected season?

This is the problem with the reserve grade team:
Mason
Feledy
Faataape
Lobb
Laulilii
Sukkar
Porter

Who are they missing who regularly played last season? Sullivan, Naden, Miller, and Tumeth. Otherwise, the NRL representatives are the same as last season. What's changed appears to be the part-timers. So the team is weaker. Matamua and Tumeth can't even make this team (or the club doesn't want them).

Our NRL team also seem to have the most NRL injuries in the past few seasons other than Souths and Roosters. So the depth is tested even more.

Compare that with the team currently leading the comp and the players they've already pulled into their reserve grade team this season:
Berry
Harper
Kosi
Te Mare Martin
Tannah Boyd
Lussick
Afoa
Laban
Ale
Sam Healy
Stowers-Smith

Some of those guys played in an NRL game that defeated our NRL team only a week ago.

Yeah, Gardner would turn this lot into a bunch of winners. Yeah right! They all train with NRL don't they?The depth is bad. The hangover from Sheens/McDonnell's signings lingers in this grade. After this season, with the deadwood cut adrift, you should hope it will improve. It can't be any worse than this.
Click to expand...
Really our NSW Cup team should be something like this IMO ...

Brent Naden - experience at the back, help direct defensive line, x-factor
Izaac Tui'tupou - former NRL winger & NSW Cup team of the year
Solomona Faataape - NRL contracted player, won a QCup premiership
Luke Laulilii - yes 18yo but one of our brightest outside back prospects
Charlie Staines - NRL quality
Heath Mason - running game, x-factor, his original position
Kurt Falls - experience, previous Penrith depth player
Jaxson Rahme - solid, young but has Cup experience
Tony Sukkar - held his own at NRL level, is on an upward trajectory
Reuben Porter or Elie El Zakhem - experience, solid NSW Cup players
Tim Johannssen - NSW Cup team of year, needs to play big minutes
Tristan Hope - captain, NRL depth, won a QCup premiership
Kit Laulilii - impact, is on an upward trajectory, working towards NRL

Bench of Vaka Aho, Justin Matamua, Brandon Tumeth, Bailey Hodges & numerous others in the mix.

It's not much different to what we ran out yesterday with some NRL additions in Naden & Staines. This team should be contending ... it has to be a coaching issue or something else going on behind-the-scenes affecting the intent of the squad in concentration & 1%ers.
 
Iron Fist said:
But shitting the bed can, and Sheens managed appear to manage it. It's a blight on the club that two top 30 players are lacing up boots for Massey and Shield comps. That tells you how much of a state the roster is still in after the 18th or 19th man.

"Only some of your list of our players are taking up top 30 spots". Correct, but they all train with the NRL squad. The warriors are leading the comp because they have a reserve grade standard top 30 with NRL depth. Apart from Hope, Staines, Naden, & Faataape, the tigers reserve grade don't. We see that as soon as there are a couple of injuries/suspensions.

Having watched the matches on bartv, I'd go as far as to say that the only reserve grade standard players in the team are Hope, Faataape, Aho, Rahme, tu'itupou, and Murray. I liked El-Zakhem on the weekend. Laulilii showed on the weekend that he is up to this standard, but only does it 1 in 4 games. So five of those players are in the train-on squad. What does that say about recruiting/contracts for NRL top 30 + development over the past few seasons? And what hope does any team have when it's fielding about 10 players not up to the standard of the grade it's in?
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Sometimes what’s intended for doesn’t work out.
Development issue, prehaps. I remember when Tumeth was unsigned his retention was a bit polarising at the time. Being the only under 19s origin player without an ongoing club contract it was seen as a blight that we weren’t fighting to retain him.
Some were saying he is too small, offers little.
Others were saying he works hard on the field is a good line runner and plays above his weight.
Why he isn’t being used could come down to his current ability or could be a potential contract issue.
I noticed that in re-reading the new changes (as of 23) to the salary cap laws that players on Top 30 contract playing only Cup or lower can request a release from their contract.
Is this the direction we are going?
 
We can look at it from many different angles , but however we view it, it is no good for our NRL prospects by having a NSW Cup team regularly running last and getting 40 or 50 points put on them most weeks.
It is no good for any young players development by being in a team that is constantly getting flogged.
Surely Richo would acknowledge this is a big problem and hopefully has a plan to fix it fast before it contributes to derailing our NRL season.
 
Iron Fist said:
On the right track with what? I'm seeing plenty about Ben Gardner, as if he had some influence with what was happening at the club. Is it merely because he had the reserve grade team running third at the end of a Covid affected season?

This is the problem with the reserve grade team:
Mason
Feledy
Faataape
Lobb
Laulilii
Sukkar
Porter

Who are they missing who regularly played last season? Sullivan, Naden, Miller, and Tumeth. Otherwise, the NRL representatives are the same as last season. What's changed appears to be the part-timers. So the team is weaker. Matamua and Tumeth can't even make this team (or the club doesn't want them).

Our NRL team also seem to have the most NRL injuries in the past few seasons other than Souths and Roosters. So the depth is tested even more.

Compare that with the team currently leading the comp and the players they've already pulled into their reserve grade team this season:
Berry
Harper
Kosi
Te Mare Martin
Tannah Boyd
Lussick
Afoa
Laban
Ale
Sam Healy
Stowers-Smith

Some of those guys played in an NRL game that defeated our NRL team only a week ago.

Yeah, Gardner would turn this lot into a bunch of winners. Yeah right! They all train with NRL don't they?The depth is bad. The hangover from Sheens/McDonnell's signings lingers in this grade. After this season, with the deadwood cut adrift, you should hope it will improve. It can't be any worse than this.
Click to expand...
Im not saying its just coaching or Gardner or any one thing. Its combination of factors that all need adressing.

Way back when we were looking for a first grade coach we interviewed Bellamy and one of his prerequisites was that there would be no duplication and / or separation of pathways teams (no Balmain or magpies but justWT) under his management coaching structure. So he perhaps also saw that our talent needs to be consolidated.

The other point is that any Pathways talent teens that are coming through land in our Reserve grade which (since Gardner and yes as far as I saw he was a good coach and communicator and had an eye old recruiting and selecting for what he needed) …… has had a series of “just plain awful” coaches and young player developers.

Not to mention this is also partly due to the fact of our continual stacking about 1/3 our top 30 roster with combination of either young players that should still be learning their craft in pathways or plan bad old recruitment decisions disasters.

Finally my belief has always been (as some on here have also mentioned) … that successful reserve grade side will provide much better environment for developing pathways youngsters in being ready for demands of NRL first grade. Good example is what the Bulldogs have achieved to date with very solid results in most of their grades.
 
momo_amp_medo said:
Finally my belief has always been (as some on here have also mentioned) … that successful reserve grade side will provide much better environment for developing pathways youngsters in being ready for demands of NRL first grade. Good example is what the Bulldogs have achieved to date with very solid results in most of their grades.
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I think this is the answer, but I expect that we are a couple of years behind the Dogs. We have fast tracked our talent into the NRL due to the poor performances and management of the previous ten or so years. I note that we have made a number of KoE level recruitment decisions and trust that we continue to do so. Slowing down the path to the NRL is critical to the development of our juniors - we should only be fast tracking by exception.

Waht we requre is a core we are building around and a numebr of undertsudies earmarked to replace them through injury or whatever. Until then the next man up matra is just that - it will have no substance.
 
The problem with the KOE squad and what has been the problem for a while, is the rewarding of poor performances due to the lack of depth. The first grade team don't have much of a choice when a man goes down cause they all haven't been playing well. Obviously last year it was good to see Si. Fainu and Johanssen rewarded for some excellent performances. But people like Faatape and Feledy have been rewarded for shocking performances. Faatape hasn't had a great game in KOE for months (including last year) but consistently gets called back up. His game on the weekend was shocking but he continues to be the next man up. I would argue there is no one in that KOE side that are NRL standard. I do believe it you fix up the top (first grade) the rest will follow. All the way down to Matts and Laurie Daley.

Also I believe Aaron Payne's coaching is poor. I am aware of the high turnover of players which wouldn't help him at all. But he took over last year and came last despite having the whole preseason and hasn't started this year well at all either. He needs to be saxked or demoted to a junior team. I have belief in this squad as I think it is almost there in terms of winning a few but I think the coaching is dragging them back a bit. Also a few players who are playing Ron massey, SS and Flegg who are taking up spots usually used for KOE players.

But I stay faithful. Carn the pies
 
Charred said:
View attachment 21676
Naden is back 🤝
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Some notes on this week's NSW Cup team ...

IN: Luke Laulilii, Brent Naden, Eiden Ackland, Bailey Hodges
OUT: Izaac Thompson (injury or demoted?), Max Liles (Flegg), Tino Tavana (Flegg), Tim Johannssen (injury or demoted?), Jayden Tanner (injury or demoted?)

In my review last week I called for El Zakhem to start & Porter demoted TICK and for Bailey Hodges to come in TICK.

I think Porter to bench is more a rev up from the coach as I expect him to start in place of Sukkar (with Sukkar to be 18th man in NRL and I suspect Benji does not like to play his 18th man in Cup if the game is prior to NRL).

With Feledy on bench, we'll probably see Naden move into the halves at some point or fullback (with Mason into halves).

Hopefully Hope & Hodges rotate at dummyhalf and Hodges is given some good minutes.
 
pathways has dropped of the planet on tv .Baah humbug , Scrolled forward today for Easter wknd. No lower grades advertised on either channel . ? .
 
Betterdays22 said:
"We’ve got a number of guys in NSW Cup who are NRL players and that’s what you want and that’s how you build a successful club,” he said.

“Anytime Canterbury has been successful in the past it’s had strong NSW Cup teams and Jersey Flegg teams and that’s what we’re trying to build and we feel like we’re getting closer."

- Cameron Ciraldo

We still have plenty of catch up to do
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Some seem to think all you need is a good 17. Well that maybe the case if you wanna win one year, but if you wanna be at the top long term this is the mentality required.
 
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