Playing negative

[snowleopard]

This for Happy ..not a setup ..just interested in your thoughts

Looking at the replay of Cowboys game and the bombs we put in the air it seemed the plan was to not chase hard and get to Coote.. but rather hold back and approach in a straight line. Am thinking the reason for this was to stop coote from running forward to catch and gain momentum to break the first tackles and return the ball with big metres and make sure the next few hit ups were met with a solid straight wall of defence.

 

[happy_tiger]

This for Happy ..not a setup ..just interested in your thoughts

Looking at the replay of Cowboys game and the bombs we put in the air it seemed the plan was to not chase hard and get to Coote.. but rather hold back and approach in a straight line. Am thinking the reason for this was to stop coote from running forward to catch and gain momentum to break the first tackles and return the ball with big metres and make sure the next few hit ups were met with a solid straight wall of defence.

Look I will answer that as an ex fullback Snow

The balls you hated the most were the ones that were directed over your shoulder closer to the winger

You were then having to worry about where you were running , where the winger was , possibly where the sideline and dead ball were and all while this possibly looking over your shoulder running at speed looking into the sun or the lights if a night game and hoping a gust of wind wouldn't shift its line too much

Then if the kick was deep enough you had to turn and get your ass out of the in goal and try and get back mid field to give your team a chance to attack from either side of the field and get some field position

That's why looking at Taylor as an ex half and a bloke who used to put up some pretty effective bombs himself to say the least would be thinking "What does Coote really not want to do ?? "

And that's why I find it inconceivable that he wants the kicks in the centre of the field , firstly you want to try and get the opposition wasting a tackle or two to get in a position where the defence can't predict exactly where they will run because they can't do anything bar go left or right and play the open side

Half of our problem with our kicks is our lack of field position when we kick , which is affected by the fact we couldn't pin the opposition in their own half

So in the long run it still comes back to our lack of line speed and our inability to win the ruck defensively

Just about everything in rugby league bar the actually scoring of points comes back to your defence

 

[Doc_Tiger]

While it was still an aweful game to watch, last week we created plenty of opportunities, with diabolical execution.

In all honesty, with the team we fielded, anyone care to identify the finishers we had on the park? Who do you all expect to score the points?

Richards has only scored when Simona was on the park, and as we saw in the game, Simona was looking likely until injured. So how about punching a forward over… Ava was held up, Siro centimetres short twice, dropped one as well (though the pass was terrible for the traffic he was to hit). Kev, he can also score, almost did. But thats the end of our options bar Moses, Brooks or Teddy doing it all themselves.

I thought everyone realised that without Simona, Richards is all but out there counting blades of grass... then on the other side of the park we have Lawrence who while can occasionally play a decent defensive game, hasnt been an offensive threat forever, and for the same period never noted to release his winger.

So in all the wisdom out there, who do we expect to be hitting if we threw it around? A sidestep and a flickpass to the pack? double pump then cut out ball to the wingers, save Hoeter and Lawrence the shame of displaying their lack of offensive capabilities? Maybe bomb to Kev to cut out his centre, should work him being so tall and all...

The dour 5 up and kick... we honestly dont have other targets on the field at present bar 3 rookies in the spine, and a pack to punch it up.

Its not rocket surgery.

Whilst I understand the argument, Surely there must be an alternate argument that if after 15+ years of playing football, you offer absolutely nothing in attack, then perhaps you need to consider an alternate career.

 

[snowleopard]

Thanks Happy makes sense. When I looked at Cowboys and last few games it looked like that and because we're were in bad field position we were forced to try and bomb from a long way out and try and present a straight line in D to stop a break up field if the line was naturally staggered if we tried to contest. A bit like playing forcing back in the park ..wait for a mistake or bad kick return eh

 

[MightyMaggy]

I thought the idea in rugby league is to score more points in a game, than your opposition, as stated by many before this post.
If the JT plan is to concentrate on defence,WHO is primarily responsible for planning and implementing the coaching/training to achieve the improvement. I assume this is initially the DEFENSIVE COACH, who prepares the plan, which is modified/improved, if necessary, by JT. Does this person exist in the organisation? If improving the defence is the main task for the year, JT must make someone responsible for the task!
While the comparison of the defensive results for the first eleven rounds over the years is distorted, because the opposition differs, these are the figures up to and including round 11:-
2012-205 points against
2013-307 points against
2014-242 points against
2015-215 points against
While there is some improvement from 2014 to 2015, about 11 per cent, is this an acceptable gain for the tremendous effort involved and the lack of attention to attack?
Is there a person within the organisation, who is primarily responsible for improving the team's attack? Seeing, we are not working on the team's attack, how is this person contributing to JT's plan for the team this year?
This approach is not the norm for any sporting team in my view, but then I have only coached soccer and not league!

 

[Geo]

The answer to your question for Defensive Coach Maggy for this season is….David Kidwell...

Attack..Matt Cameron

 

[goldcoast_tiger]

I still don't accept that you have to stop attacking completely to improve your defence
I know I'm not a first grade Coach , but neither are some people who have coached first Grade.
Either our players are so dumb that they can't do two different things on the field or TAylor is responsible for these disgraceful displays we have to watch.
We don't have to have the most brilliant attack each week , but what is being served up each week is rubbish, , and so many people are prepared to accept this as some sort of brilliant scheme by our master coach,
Fair dinkum, we may as well hand the ball back to the opposition as soon as we get a new attacking set, as we certainly don't have any intention of actually trying to score any points
While we have it.
think of how much practise we will get in defence then,
I always thought that you sorted out problems on the training paddock , and actually played football during a game while trying to incorporate the things you were doing at training,
One question for JT,
Do we actually do ANY training on attack at training,
It mustn't take up much time as the attack plan is just standard under 10's stuff.
And don't give me that crap about he's changing the "culture" of the club"
if you are winning games, the " culture always seems to be good.
If you can't win a game the "culture"is crappy. There's not too many teams that are winning games that are classed as having a bad " culture"
The only culture in a club , is if you accept a sub standard effort, or don't.
And not making players and Coach responsible for their losses doesn't help that.

 

[Tigermama]

I still don't accept that you have to stop attacking completely to improve your defence
I know I'm not a first grade Coach , but neither are some people who have coached first Grade.
Either our players are so dumb that they can't do two different things on the field or TAylor is responsible for these disgraceful displays we have to watch.
We don't have to have the most brilliant attack each week , but what is being served up each week is rubbish, , and so many people are prepared to accept this as some sort of brilliant scheme by our master coach,
Fair dinkum, we may as well hand the ball back to the opposition as soon as we get a new attacking set, as we certainly don't have any intention of actually trying to score any points
While we have it.
think of how much practise we will get in defence then,
I always thought that you sorted out problems on the training paddock , and actually played football during a game while trying to incorporate the things you were doing at training,
One question for JT,
Do we actually do ANY training on attack at training,
It mustn't take up much time as the attack plan is just standard under 10's stuff.
And don't give me that crap about he's changing the "culture" of the club"
if you are winning games, the " culture always seems to be good.
If you can't win a game the "culture"is crappy. There's not too many teams that are winning games that are classed as having a bad " culture"
The only culture in a club , is if you accept a sub standard effort, or don't.
And not making players and Coach responsible for their losses doesn't help that.

Couldn't have said it better myself GCT. I'm so hoping we see our team play with a bit more spark this Friday. 😛ray:

 

[TrueTiger]

I still don't accept that you have to stop attacking completely to improve your defence
I know I'm not a first grade Coach , but neither are some people who have coached first Grade.
Either our players are so dumb that they can't do two different things on the field or TAylor is responsible for these disgraceful displays we have to watch.
We don't have to have the most brilliant attack each week , but what is being served up each week is rubbish, , and so many people are prepared to accept this as some sort of brilliant scheme by our master coach,
Fair dinkum, we may as well hand the ball back to the opposition as soon as we get a new attacking set, as we certainly don't have any intention of actually trying to score any points
While we have it.
think of how much practise we will get in defence then,
I always thought that you sorted out problems on the training paddock , and actually played football during a game while trying to incorporate the things you were doing at training,
One question for JT,
Do we actually do ANY training on attack at training,
It mustn't take up much time as the attack plan is just standard under 10's stuff.
And don't give me that crap about he's changing the "culture" of the club"
if you are winning games, the " culture always seems to be good.
If you can't win a game the "culture"is crappy. There's not too many teams that are winning games that are classed as having a bad " culture"
The only culture in a club , is if you accept a sub standard effort, or don't.
And not making players and Coach responsible for their losses doesn't help that.

Couldn't have said it better myself GCT. I'm so hoping we see our team play with a bit more spark this Friday. 😛ray:

GCT,MAMA,I still dont understand why we cant have some sort of attacking play sometime during the game,defence and attack go hand in hand anytime you want to win a game of rugby league…..
I will get shot down for my comments ,but defending all game gets boring,you cant win the game without the ball and trying to do something with it..

 

[goldcoast_tiger]

I still don't accept that you have to stop attacking completely to improve your defence
I know I'm not a first grade Coach , but neither are some people who have coached first Grade.
Either our players are so dumb that they can't do two different things on the field or TAylor is responsible for these disgraceful displays we have to watch.
We don't have to have the most brilliant attack each week , but what is being served up each week is rubbish, , and so many people are prepared to accept this as some sort of brilliant scheme by our master coach,
Fair dinkum, we may as well hand the ball back to the opposition as soon as we get a new attacking set, as we certainly don't have any intention of actually trying to score any points
While we have it.
think of how much practise we will get in defence then,
I always thought that you sorted out problems on the training paddock , and actually played football during a game while trying to incorporate the things you were doing at training,
One question for JT,
Do we actually do ANY training on attack at training,
It mustn't take up much time as the attack plan is just standard under 10's stuff.
And don't give me that crap about he's changing the "culture" of the club"
if you are winning games, the " culture always seems to be good.
If you can't win a game the "culture"is crappy. There's not too many teams that are winning games that are classed as having a bad " culture"
The only culture in a club , is if you accept a sub standard effort, or don't.
And not making players and Coach responsible for their losses doesn't help that.

Couldn't have said it better myself GCT. I'm so hoping we see our team play with a bit more spark this Friday. 😛ray:

GCT,MAMA,I still dont understand why we cant have some sort of attacking play sometime during the game,defence and attack go hand in hand anytime you want to win a game of rugby league…..
I will get shot down for my comments ,but defending all game gets boring,you cant win the game without the ball and trying to do something with it..

The guns will be out again for all of us that think this way. Lol

 

[magpiecol]

While it was still an aweful game to watch, last week we created plenty of opportunities, with diabolical execution.

In all honesty, with the team we fielded, anyone care to identify the finishers we had on the park? Who do you all expect to score the points?

Richards has only scored when Simona was on the park, and as we saw in the game, Simona was looking likely until injured. So how about punching a forward over… Ava was held up, Siro centimetres short twice, dropped one as well (though the pass was terrible for the traffic he was to hit). Kev, he can also score, almost did. But thats the end of our options bar Moses, Brooks or Teddy doing it all themselves.

I thought everyone realised that without Simona, Richards is all but out there counting blades of grass... then on the other side of the park we have Lawrence who while can occasionally play a decent defensive game, hasnt been an offensive threat forever, and for the same period never noted to release his winger.

So in all the wisdom out there, who do we expect to be hitting if we threw it around? A sidestep and a flickpass to the pack? double pump then cut out ball to the wingers, save Hoeter and Lawrence the shame of displaying their lack of offensive capabilities? Maybe bomb to Kev to cut out his centre, should work him being so tall and all...

The dour 5 up and kick... we honestly dont have other targets on the field at present bar 3 rookies in the spine, and a pack to punch it up.

Its not rocket surgery.

Good post B & W.

As pointed out earlier ( but seemingly ignored by most ) the Dragons have the BEST defence and the WORST attack and will be leading the comp. this afternoon when/if they beat the Sharks. Some people will ignore the facts so as not to interfere with a good whinge.

 

[Geo]

"You get your defence right and points will come"….Peter Stirling...

 

[stevetiger]

Good post B & W.

As pointed out earlier ( but seemingly ignored by most ) the Dragons have the BEST defence and the WORST attack and will be leading the comp. this afternoon when/if they beat the Sharks. Some people will ignore the facts so as not to interfere with a good whinge.

I think its pretty obvious that you are ignoring the facts. You need to win games to be leading the comp. I'd suggest that means that you need to have a positive points differential in the games that you win unless you can win by scoring less that the opposition.

No one is stating that we don't need a good defence. The problem is that there are a bunch of posters on here stating that all that matters is defence and playing negative footy will somehow win us the comp in 5 years time. That is ignoring the facts and being delusional.

 

[Tigermama]

I still don't accept that you have to stop attacking completely to improve your defence
I know I'm not a first grade Coach , but neither are some people who have coached first Grade.
Either our players are so dumb that they can't do two different things on the field or TAylor is responsible for these disgraceful displays we have to watch.
We don't have to have the most brilliant attack each week , but what is being served up each week is rubbish, , and so many people are prepared to accept this as some sort of brilliant scheme by our master coach,
Fair dinkum, we may as well hand the ball back to the opposition as soon as we get a new attacking set, as we certainly don't have any intention of actually trying to score any points
While we have it.
think of how much practise we will get in defence then,
I always thought that you sorted out problems on the training paddock , and actually played football during a game while trying to incorporate the things you were doing at training,
One question for JT,
Do we actually do ANY training on attack at training,
It mustn't take up much time as the attack plan is just standard under 10's stuff.
And don't give me that crap about he's changing the "culture" of the club"
if you are winning games, the " culture always seems to be good.
If you can't win a game the "culture"is crappy. There's not too many teams that are winning games that are classed as having a bad " culture"
The only culture in a club , is if you accept a sub standard effort, or don't.
And not making players and Coach responsible for their losses doesn't help that.

Couldn't have said it better myself GCT. I'm so hoping we see our team play with a bit more spark this Friday. 😛ray:

GCT,MAMA,I still dont understand why we cant have some sort of attacking play sometime during the game,defence and attack go hand in hand anytime you want to win a game of rugby league…..
I will get shot down for my comments ,but defending all game gets boring,you cant win the game without the ball and trying to do something with it..

God help us TT, if we play like we did against the Cowboys. The Titans can play some flamboyant footy and they are capable of putting quite a few points on us, if we don't hold on to the ball and strike while the iron is hot!
Good luck to the boys on Friday. They are going to need it. I have a feeling we will see more attack this week :sign:

 

[magpiecol]

Good post B & W.

As pointed out earlier ( but seemingly ignored by most ) the Dragons have the BEST defence and the WORST attack and will be leading the comp. this afternoon when/if they beat the Sharks. Some people will ignore the facts so as not to interfere with a good whinge.

I think its pretty obvious that you are ignoring the facts. You need to win games to be leading the comp. I'd suggest that means that you need to have a positive points differential in the games that you win unless you can win by scoring less that the opposition.

No one is stating that we don't need a good defence. The problem is that there are a bunch of posters on here stating that all that matters is defence and playing negative footy will somehow win us the comp in 5 years time. That is ignoring the facts and being delusional.

The facts are the facts. Saints are leading the comp with the best defence and the worst attack. How things work out in individual games is another matter, but those are the facts.

To throw Taylor under the bus because of one game seems a bit ott. Don't forget that we beat Saints earlier in the year. We have been in most of the games this year except a couple, so I am prepared to mark time for awhile and see how things work out.

When Taylor can get a couple of players that we need then we shall see.

 

[Tigerdave]

Pretty sure just about every commentator is saying that you need good defence first and then attack will follow…..........the Saints are a clear example of turning things around, concentrating on defence and then everything else has followed.

Best defence and even after yesterday's big win, still the 5th worst attack........only 5 points more than us....

 

[Newtown]

Pretty sure just about every commentator is saying that you need good defence first and then attack will follow…..........the Saints are a clear example of turning things around, concentrating on defence and then everything else has followed.

Best defence and even after yesterday's big win, still the 5th worst attack........only 5 points more than us....

Dragons have Benji Marshal who can turn the game at any moment. Wests Tigers don't have anybody like that at all. When they finish their boring first four or five tackles they don't have a game breaker to pass the ball too. At least not at the way Taylor has them currently playing. They can play defensively until the cows come home but tries will be few and far between (and so will the fans).

 

[sheer64]

In no way am I defending Taylor but it was obvious we needed to improve defensively. I just cant see the problem of letting our halves play what they see in front of them. Brooks is quick off the mark and can catch lazy forwards out and Moses looks best when he is running the ball not kicking it! Even Teddy is losing interest supporting them when they have the ball! But one of my main concerns is the number of times Brooks passes to Siro and he is unable to score. Our opposition seem well schooled on this and able to snuff it out. Again not playing what is in front of them, just playing what they are trained!

 

[Black_n_White]

Pretty sure just about every commentator is saying that you need good defence first and then attack will follow…..........the Saints are a clear example of turning things around, concentrating on defence and then everything else has followed.

Best defence and even after yesterday's big win, still the 5th worst attack........only 5 points more than us....

Dragons have Benji Marshal who can turn the game at any moment. Wests Tigers don't have anybody like that at all. When they finish their boring first four or five tackles they don't have a game breaker to pass the ball too. At least not at the way Taylor has them currently playing. They can play defensively until the cows come home but tries will be few and far between (and so will the fans).

Simona and Noffa coming back will give us alot more attacking prowess… light and day between what they offer, and what Hoeter and Lawrence dont.

 

[bp_tiger]

Whats the use of saying with simona and noffa back we will have a batter attack,