Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

[stryker]

Depends how you go about it Stryker , if he says he got it wrong and wants to change it I don't have a problem with that and would be the same if it was a ALP leader also

Yes but what I am saying is that there should be no deception with policies. If Abbott believes in work choices then he should have the balls to run with it during his campaign and sell it to the electorate…just as Howard did with the GST.

Gillard and Swan categorically denied the carbon tax would be introduced - not just in their next term but whilst ever they were in power then got elected by a bees whisker and immediately started introducing it. She deserved the backlash she recieved.

I do think the IR laws need a tweak as the unions and workers in general have far too much power. Remember the old days when you bargained for your own payrise/bonus? It was time consuming but what happened was that people ended up working harder so as to attain this goal and the efficient were rewarded whilst the lazy were found out.

 

[Yossarian]

On what objective basis do you base that on?

Industrial Relation laws are one.

That's you opinion of the laws. The IR laws themselves are not an objective measurement.

Gold!! I really think you should be in politics Yoss.

There is no doubt that Liberal IR Laws are always focused towards helping small business. Labors towards the employees/unions.

The original comment asked for objective measurements so I'm not sure why my comment is "gold". I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your assessment but it is just that - an assessment based on a subjective overview. An alternative reading is that the Libs IR laws are focused on removing rights from employees whereas the Labor is focused on preserving workers' rights. Businesses don't operate in vacuums and workers are not some resource to be exploited for gain and tossed away when not needed.

 

[Tiger_Watto]

I see this everyday and its a good example of how both parties look at things.

Wage Workers in Australia think they get 'paid by the hour' - (This is a Labor Spin)

Where in fact, every award is written that you get 'paid to do a specific job', and that job is calculated at an hourly rate.

Labor continually take away the employers rights to manage poor performance, while the Libs (in the past) have allowed employers the autonomy to manage such things more simply.

Terminating Employees is not fun… In fact, I hate having to do it as I know I'm effecting that persons ability to live. But at the end of the day, I must put the business first and ensuring high productivity is the starting point to converting my product into money.

Profit isnt a dirty word... Its why I'm in business!!!

 

[stryker]

An alternative reading is that the Libs IR laws are focused on removing rights from employees whereas the Labor is focused on preserving workers' rights. Businesses don't operate in vacuums and workers are not some resource to be exploited for gain and tossed away when not needed.

I know a lot of people who are in business for themselves Yoss. None of us look at our employees as expendable commodities. Like it or not however, they are resources and in my view the most important resources in my business. I dont want their rights taken away from them…if they are sick they take time off and get better. If they give me enough notice, they can take any day off for whatever reason, as long as they have saved up some flex through rdo's etc....

With the sickness entitlements as an example the unwritten rule among employees is if you dont use them, you lose them meaning if you havent taken all of your sick day entitlements by the years end, they disappear. I brought in a system 3 years ago where each bloke gets his 10 sickies a year and if he hasnt used them all by the end of the year, I pay them out. This works for me on a couple of levels:
1) I only have 9 employees so it isnt a big payout
2) The average sickies taken by my men are down to 4 per year meaning I have them at work more often making the business money.
3) The employees see it as a sort of savings account. i.e. if I owe them 5 sickdays by christamas, then there is an extra weeks pay to go with their bonus and holiday leave loading....they get a good cheque at the time of the year they really need it.

The thing is, when you get rid of EBA's you find people react differently. Last time I did it, everyone got $2 an hour raise and another condition. Some of those blokes worked their rings out and were always prepared to do a Saturday etc...whilst others only did their 40 hours, just plodded along and you couldnt get another minute out of them come hell or high water. The first group deserved $4 an hour more whilst the second deserved $1\. Because they were all in together we settled on $2 and I was left with some very good employees who were cranky and some average ones who were happy. I myself was pretty angry as well.

I have scrapped this system and brought in productivity bonuses and also changed the working week to 4 x 10 hour days Mon-Thurs with a half day on Fridays at overtime rates. Saturdays are completely optional. This has by far increased productivity and the boys are happy because they are earning more and get get a 2 and a 1/2 day weekend every week at minumum. They can also bank their rdo's to a maximum of 10 which many do as well.

Point being, if you let employers decide working conditions to an extent, the employees will be looked after. We can not run our businesses with out them. They are the life blood. Every once in a while you will get one who doesnt give a crap and expects the world for little in return and I think it is only fair we are allowed to terminate these types instantly. In my experience these guys are usually heavily into union ideaology and they have been brainwashed into thinking this way. For instance they will drop tools at 12 on the dot and have lunch...even if the job they are on has only 1/2 an hour to go. It then takes them 35 minutes to get back to work, then they have a smoke or go to the dunny or have a chat and that half hour remaining quickly turns into a full hour. Just get the job done, pack up, then have lunch whilst preparing for the arvos activities. It is all about give and take and trying to get the emploees to take 'ownership' of the job.

Yes there are some big companies Yoss who exploit their employees but I can tell you mate that in construction, these companies became more prelevant when the unions started gaining strength again. These unions want all their fees paid for doing the minimum amount of work i.e. EBA's - everyone gets the same which as I said results in half the workforce being upset and half satisfied. Everyone should not be on the same wage. Some deserve more due to their experience and ethics and some deserve less due to their mentality of doing the bare minimum.

I think Abbott can come up with changes to IR laws that will be beneficial to both parties and that, I am hoping, is one of the platforms he pursues in the upcoming election.

 

[Tiger_Watto]

Your definitely going above and beyond Stryker… Good to see its getting a good result.

I only pay the bare minimum these days as I'm sick of lazy staff who think they can simply turn up and get paid... Those employees who work hard in our organisation, always receive a little cash packet most weeks and we always work towards common goals for whats best for their work-life balance.

My senior people have been with me for 11/6/5/5/4/4/4 years, and now 2 have received vendor finance to become part-owners within our business model...

Small Business aren't stupid when it comes to Employee Relations!!!

 

[happy_tiger]

I see this everyday and its a good example of how both parties look at things.

Wage Workers in Australia think they get 'paid by the hour' - (This is a Labor Spin)

Where in fact, every award is written that you get 'paid to do a specific job', and that job is calculated at an hourly rate.

Labor continually take away the employers rights to manage poor performance, while the Libs (in the past) have allowed employers the autonomy to manage such things more simply.

Terminating Employees is not fun… In fact, I hate having to do it as I know I'm effecting that persons ability to live. But at the end of the day, I must put the business first and ensuring high productivity is the starting point to converting my product into money.

Profit isnt a dirty word... Its why I'm in business!!!

Put the shoe on the other foot Watto ,don't think about how you are affecting their ability to live , think about how they are affecting your ability to make money

Its not your fault they choose not to perform to your expectations or at a level that is generally acceptable in your workplace

 

[Winnipeg]

Yes I will mate. If you are elected on a certain platform and then change it 180 degrees once in power then you deserve all ridicule that comes your way.

Abbott has plenty of form for this

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-22/abbott-defends-broken-promise/2805876

Opposition Leader Tony Abbott has defended his 2004 broken election promise on the Medicare safety net, saying it is not the same as the Prime Minister's carbon tax backflip.
>
Mr Abbott, who has made the issue of a broken election promise central to his attack on Labor's carbon pricing scheme, pledged as health minister that the then-Government's commitment to the Medicare safety net levels was "an absolutely rock solid, ironclad commitment".
>
But the Howard Government later lifted the safety net levels - a move Mr Abbott defended in similar terms to those currently employed by Prime Minister Julia Gillard in relation to her about-face on the carbon tax.
>
**In 2005, Mr Abbott said: "When I made that statement in the election campaign I had not the slightest inkling that there would ever be any intention to change this, but obviously when circumstances change, governments do change their opinions."**

HE LIED x one billion

 

[Winnipeg]

Stryker, under the Fair Work Act a small business owner cannot be done for unfair dismissal if they fire anyone in the first 12 months of employment… surely within a year you can work out if a worker is useless or not?

Watto, you say 'I only pay the bare minimum', yet would like to see the minimum wage abolished presumably so you could pay people less. I have to say I'm pretty glad I don't work for you. Also do you realise that superannuation is designed to care for an ageing population right? Would you be happy paying more tax to fund the millions more people who would end up on the pension?

Anyway Abbott has promised that Work Choices is dead and buried so I guess his policies won't be what you're looking for [as we know he is a man of his word]

 

[stryker]

Stryker, under the Fair Work Act a small business owner cannot be done for unfair dismissal if they fire anyone in the first 12 months of employment… surely within a year you can work out if a worker is useless or not?

Not always, people lose interest or get into a sense of comfort where they drop in intensity levels. Some play the game and go hard for a while and then relax. The truth is there are many out there who dont give a crap about where there work is heading, they dont want to progress through the company and will do the absolute bare minimum….that annoys me as it is but once they drop below that level they are taking me for ganted and I immediately get rid of them.
\
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Anyway Abbott has promised that Work Choices is dead and buried so I guess his policies won't be what you're looking for [as we know he is a man of his word]

Doesnt matter what he has said in opposition, I only care what he says when the whips start cracking during the campaign. I have no doubt it will be there somewhere and in some form. I also have no doubt it will be subject to the same spin and scare mongering it was in 07.

 

[Winnipeg]

I guess in a democracy the 'only the small business owner is allowed an opinion' spin doesn't apply

Recall when John Howard, the most popular PM in a generation, lost his own seat in the backlash against Work Choices. Scaremongering? I would say it was more a case of voters feeling the balance had been tipped too far in favour of business.

Maybe the solution is for every single person in Australia to be a small business owner, that way we'd all be rich?

 

[Tiger_Watto]

Stryker, under the Fair Work Act a small business owner cannot be done for unfair dismissal if they fire anyone in the first 12 months of employment… surely within a year you can work out if a worker is useless or not?

Watto, you say 'I only pay the bare minimum', yet would like to see the minimum wage abolished presumably so you could pay people less. I have to say I'm pretty glad I don't work for you. Also do you realise that superannuation is designed to care for an ageing population right? Would you be happy paying more tax to fund the millions more people who would end up on the pension?

Anyway Abbott has promised that Work Choices is dead and buried so I guess his policies won't be what you're looking for [as we know he is a man of his word]

Not at all… I'd love nothing more than to pay a base wage of $15 per hour and then incentive's/reward good workers by up to 100%. With the current generation coming through, some are only worth $10 per hour, but they are pretty quick to preach to me what there entitlements are under the Awards... I normally flush em out pretty quick and toss em out the back door!

The average punter's biggest whinge out there is the cost of living. They complain the cost of this is high, the cost of that is high, and then they celebrate the increase in minimum wage. What they dont realise is its because of minimum wage being increased, the bag of tomatoes goes through 5 sets of minimum wage hands before it gets to the supermarket, and it this reason why it is so high. Businesses are only going to pass on the increases... I'm a firm believer that if we abolish Minimum Wage, will actually bring the cost of living down dramatically. Some might say businesses will just pocket the profits, but with competition, they will drop prices!

As to ageing Australia, the fact these people haven't planned for their own financial future shouldn't be my burden... Maybe they should bring in a Super Threshold that if you don't have enough in your Super Funds [means tested by age], those individuals should pay higher tax's instead of forcing businesses to fund it… Honest people would say that's fair, but from a political sense, it wont win votes for a Labor Government!

 

[Yossarian]

You'd fire someone for defending their rights under an award? Seriously? 😱pen_mouth:

 

[Tiger_Watto]

You'd fire someone for defending their rights under an award? Seriously? 😱pen_mouth:

not exactly… I'm talking about the lazy ones who dont give a shit and let everyone else do the work for them.

You will have a chat to them and tell them to pull there fingers out or you'll punt them, and then they start preaching rules and regulations...

Years ago, I could take them into the coldroom and belt the crap out of them. Ironically, after that most would usually turn out to be great employees... but theres simply too many lawyers today :frowning:

Who's responsible for too many lawyers? Libs???

 

[Gary_Bakerloo]

.. I'm a firm believer that if we abolish Minimum Wage, will actually bring the cost of living down dramatically. Some might say businesses will just pocket the profits, but with competition, they will drop prices!

Sounds like an idea. I will therefore delay any consumption because prices will always be cheaper tomorrow. Doubt I will be the only one to think like that - hello deflation!

 

[Yossarian]

You'd fire someone for defending their rights under an award? Seriously? 😱pen_mouth:

not exactly… I'm talking about the lazy ones who dont give a s*** and let everyone else do the work for them.

You will have a chat to them and tell them to pull there fingers out or you'll punt them, and then they start preaching rules and regulations...

Years ago, I could take them into the coldroom and belt the crap out of them. Ironically, after that most would usually turn out to be great employees... but theres simply too many lawyers today :frowning:

Who's responsible for too many lawyers? Libs???

Well yes it is a shame that employers are no longer allowed to beat their staff…

Anyway for every employer like yourself who sees lazy staff citing the law there are others who will punt someone for refusing to work extra hours without pay or for taking a sick day. Without any safety net their livelihood is out the door.

 

[Tiger_Watto]

Yoss, is there really employers out there who expect employees to work extra hours without pay? I struggle to believe that one. To me, expecting anyone to do that is just ridiculous…. They simply wouldn't turn up the next day?!

You Work = You Get Paid... You Work Harder = You Get a Bonus.

I will say this though. Turning up at your workplace at a set time isn't working!

 

[Yossarian]

Yoss, is there really employers out there who expect employees to work extra hours without pay? I struggle to believe that one. To me, expecting anyone to do that is just ridiculous…. They simply wouldn't turn up the next day?!

You Work = You Get Paid... You Work Harder = You Get a Bonus.

I will say this though. Turning up at your workplace at a set time isn't working!

Yes there are employers who do that - some indeed did so during workchoices. People turn up because they need the job and if you're at the low end of the totem pole you worry about being unemployed even in the short-term.

 

[Flippedy]

Stryker, under the Fair Work Act a small business owner cannot be done for unfair dismissal if they fire anyone in the first 12 months of employment… surely within a year you can work out if a worker is useless or not?

Watto, you say 'I only pay the bare minimum', yet would like to see the minimum wage abolished presumably so you could pay people less. I have to say I'm pretty glad I don't work for you. Also do you realise that superannuation is designed to care for an ageing population right? Would you be happy paying more tax to fund the millions more people who would end up on the pension?

Anyway Abbott has promised that Work Choices is dead and buried so I guess his policies won't be what you're looking for [as we know he is a man of his word]

Not at all… I'd love nothing more than to pay a base wage of $15 per hour and then incentive's/reward good workers by up to 100%. With the current generation coming through, some are only worth $10 per hour, but they are pretty quick to preach to me what there entitlements are under the Awards... I normally flush em out pretty quick and toss em out the back door!

The average punter's biggest whinge out there is the cost of living. They complain the cost of this is high, the cost of that is high, and then they celebrate the increase in minimum wage. What they dont realise is its because of minimum wage being increased, the bag of tomatoes goes through 5 sets of minimum wage hands before it gets to the supermarket, and it this reason why it is so high. Businesses are only going to pass on the increases... I'm a firm believer that if we abolish Minimum Wage, will actually bring the cost of living down dramatically. Some might say businesses will just pocket the profits, but with competition, they will drop prices!

**As to ageing Australia, the fact these people haven't planned for their own financial future shouldn't be my burden... Maybe they should bring in a Super Threshold that if you don't have enough in your Super Funds [means tested by age], those individuals should pay higher tax's instead of forcing businesses to fund it…** Honest people would say that's fair, but from a political sense, it wont win votes for a Labor Government!

Yes, because we all get dealt exactly the same cards in life :unamused:

 

[happy_tiger]

Yoss, is there really employers out there who expect employees to work extra hours without pay? I struggle to believe that one. To me, expecting anyone to do that is just ridiculous…. They simply wouldn't turn up the next day?!

You Work = You Get Paid... You Work Harder = You Get a Bonus.

I will say this though. Turning up at your workplace at a set time isn't working!

Hey Watto nothing to say you can't set up a bonus scheme for your employees now

Reward them when you hit sales targets , operating income or ebitda targets , labour targets , minimising wastage targets

As much as we might try Watto , we can't do it all ourselves and if they get excellent results rewarding them they will only want them to achieve more for themselves and you

Stryker idea with the sick leave is a brilliant idea

Watto the only issue with what you are talking about will create a lot of complexity as you will have to turn to individual contracts which can only get messy and can create friction between staff if they talk (if they talk :laughing: ,when they talk or brag)

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

Yoss, is there really employers out there who expect employees to work extra hours without pay? I struggle to believe that one. To me, expecting anyone to do that is just ridiculous…. They simply wouldn't turn up the next day?!

You Work = You Get Paid... You Work Harder = You Get a Bonus.

I will say this though. Turning up at your workplace at a set time isn't working!

Come on TW, I know you aren't that naive. Not necessarily saying that you expect it from your employees, but I have worked at Maccas in various roles, then left and went on to complete an apprenticeship and then moved into a high end office role and a business will always extract any unpaid work wherever they can, especially if you're salaried. We had a manager at McDonalds who would only pay employees one hour after close to clean the store at the direction of the franchisee. It's not an easy task. I requested them to put on the best staff in the store to work the close shift and they still finished half an hour later. Whenever I worked the late shift after that I worked my ring out until the hour and if we weren't finished, I went home. Businesses will always exploit workers wherever they can, whether it is intentional or not.

I have got some pretty ordinary stories about the other places I have worked also.