Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

[Geo]

I still cant believe that people think like this….the 60's are over sonny - you missed out.

Well Abbott wants to take us back to the 50's….. when global economies and businesses were non-existent... but hey... they most Australian focused government in 60yrs!!! And somehow this is a good thing... :deadhorse:

:laughing: told you they want to resurrect Menzies….

Well couple of days in ...so far so good....Internet still works...School science lab only 3 months behind the BER date...still pulling minerals out of the ground....interest rates have maintained stability ....Pension week went through....No complaints so far...

Keep it up Julia....

 

[MacDougall]

What a bunch of whining sooks. I've said it before in this thread and I'll say it again

So often, the government with little or cursory debate rams through legislation, knowing it has the numbers. Government and Opposition backbenchers, and independents, are treated with disdain.

Now policy and legislation will be given the scrutiny it truly deserves from all over the country not just the highly populated areas where the votes are.

A cross-bench of independents, holding the balance of power, seems to me the most satisfactory solution to what is currently a representative vacuum.

It is a great Victory for Democracy. The democratic process has delivered the result Democracy has always intended, a balance of power in both houses.

This is Australia finally giving it's entire population what they all want - A Fair Go!

:master:

Thank you.

 

[stryker]

MacDougall,

I didn't just skim over what you wrote, I see the point your making and half agree with it. The part I dont agree with is that your generation is here to save the world.

In 2007, I was a bit disenfranchised with the path the Coalition was taking and thought that they had become stale. I looked at Rudd and thought, he's young, fresh, well spoken maybe he's worth a chance. Then along came that abhorrent "Kevin 07" campaign. They proudly boasted that they would kick Howard out on his backside…and they did, they absolutely smashed him. I formed the opinion during that campaign that they were merely style over substance. He was swept to power on the youth vote of what was basically a popularity contest.

Flash forward three years and I thought that those who voted him in at their first election might be upset with how high their expectations were and at how low the subsequent delivery of those were. I wouldnt be surprised to find out that those who got him there 3yrs ago were the very same who swung the election almost out of the ALP's hands this time around.

This brings me to my point, I think that the youth vote your referring to swung the greens way as an up yours to both major parties more then some idealogical theorey. I think that Bob Brown is an egotistical maniac and the rest of them are just plain lunatics. We shall see I suppose.

In theorey what we have now could be seen as a very fair and balanced parliament. I tend to think it will be an extremely unproductive one.
Again we shall see.

By the way I have nothing against young people mate, at 35 I still consider myself one :wink:

 

[MacDougall]

Exactly man. It did swing the Green's way. We took it out of the hands of the major parties. Forced them to split a smaller share of the traditional vote, causing the tight contest that gave us this parliament hanging by a thread.

If this parliament is unproductive, it won't last long. This time it's certainly under pressure to perform or it will be out as quick as lightning.

I disagree that the Rudd government was lacking in delivery. Considering the economical issues that arose during his term I think Rudd did very well to deliver on as many promises as he did. I totally disagreed with them knifing him. I was a fan of him, not a fan of the ALP. I voted Green (in a pretty safe Labor seat) and voted Green 1 in the Senate. We gave QLD it's first Green senator.

I do believe Bob Brown is batty as hell and the Green's are radical. I think the parliament needs a share of radical left wing though. It's been moving to the right for far too long. The nation clearly wanted to pull it back to the left at least a little.

The "Gen Y noble generation" thing was entirely tongue in cheek. There are an overwhelming number of Gen Y that are awful, awful humans. Non contributing, destructive, self depreciating, selfish… all apt adjectives for a vast number of Gen Y. I fear for the future with my generation taking the mantle. Hopefully it never does. Hopefully the Generation before us pass the baton on to the next Gen, not our one.

I know full well that left wing is a naturally effective opposition and right wing are naturally effective power wielder. I fear that this fact is lost on many of my generation. The need for both sides that is.

 

[Blackpearl]

now thats its all over red rover this is latest counting ..

Coalition Votes Percentage % Swing %
Australian Labor Party 5,921,802 50.08 -2.62
Liberal/National Coalition 5,902,097 49.92 +2.62
\
\
labor is ahead in two party preferred by 20,000 votes. no noise mr abbot !!

 

[AndTheKungFoSing]

now thats its all over red rover this is latest counting ..

Coalition Votes Percentage % Swing %
Australian Labor Party 5,921,802 50.08 -2.62
Liberal/National Coalition 5,902,097 49.92 +2.62
\
\
labor is ahead in two party preferred by 20,000 votes. no noise mr abbot !!

Factual information has no place in the Australian media Pearl….

Australian will be told by the like minded morons on Sydney's 2gb and the telecrap all around Australia otherwise... and they will believe it...

told you they want to resurrect Menzies….

Well couple of days in ...so far so good....Internet still works...School science lab only 3 months behind the BER date...still pulling minerals out of the ground....interest rates have maintained stability ....Pension week went through....No complaints so far...

Keep it up Julia....

Hahaha

Mate… it wasn't falling apart before the election but...

meh... can't be bother

...see my above comment... it still applies lol

 

[Citizen_Tiger]

now thats its all over red rover this is latest counting ..

Coalition Votes Percentage % Swing %
Australian Labor Party 5,921,802 50.08 -2.62
Liberal/National Coalition 5,902,097 49.92 +2.62
\
\
labor is ahead in two party preferred by 20,000 votes. no noise mr abbot !!

The current state of the primary vote is :-

Coaliton 5,370,301

Labor 4,711, 376

From the ABC website

 

[Yossarian]

now thats its all over red rover this is latest counting ..

Coalition Votes Percentage % Swing %
Australian Labor Party 5,921,802 50.08 -2.62
Liberal/National Coalition 5,902,097 49.92 +2.62
\
\
labor is ahead in two party preferred by 20,000 votes. no noise mr abbot !!

The current state of the primary vote is :-

Coaliton 5,370,301

Labor 4,711, 376

From the ABC website

And if we didn't have preferential voting that would be important.

 

[hammertime]

now thats its all over red rover this is latest counting ..

Coalition Votes Percentage % Swing %
Australian Labor Party 5,921,802 50.08 -2.62
Liberal/National Coalition 5,902,097 49.92 +2.62
\
\
labor is ahead in two party preferred by 20,000 votes. no noise mr abbot !!

The current state of the primary vote is :-

Coaliton 5,370,301

Labor 4,711, 376

From the ABC website

And if we didn't have preferential voting that would be important.

It should have been important to the Independents if they were ethical. Not which party would give them a ministry and $10 billion dollars.

 

[Yossarian]

It should have been important to the Independents if they were ethical. Not which party would give them a ministry and $10 billion dollars.

Nonsense. An independent MP can do whatever he/she likes. That's what makes them independent. The only conventions anyone has to work with is that preference should be given to the party with the most seats in the HoR. This was even. Besides FPV are largely meaningless in a preferential voting system, especially in Aust where there is no major right wing party to take votes from the Coalition but the Greens take votes from the left.

Your other argument is very thin. Oakeshott turned down the ministerial post and Abbott was offering more.

 

[hammertime]

It should have been important to the Independents if they were ethical. Not which party would give them a ministry and $10 billion dollars.

Nonsense. An independent MP can do whatever he/she likes. That's what makes them independent. The only conventions anyone has to work with is that preference should be given to the party with the most seats in the HoR. This was even. Besides FPV are largely meaningless in a preferential voting system, especially in Aust where there is no major right wing party to take votes from the Coalition but the Greens take votes from the left.

Your other argument is very thin. Oakeshott turned down the ministerial post and Abbott was offering more.

Yes, they can do what they want. I'm talking ethically. If you speak ethically, they should have either went with the preferences of their constituents or the preferences of the general population.

I don't care which party offered what, the plain truth is that OUR taxes were used as a bargaining chip for the party that wanted power the most.

Labor/Liberal. I don't care. We should be back at the polls.

 

[Yossarian]

It should have been important to the Independents if they were ethical. Not which party would give them a ministry and $10 billion dollars.

Nonsense. An independent MP can do whatever he/she likes. That's what makes them independent. The only conventions anyone has to work with is that preference should be given to the party with the most seats in the HoR. This was even. Besides FPV are largely meaningless in a preferential voting system, especially in Aust where there is no major right wing party to take votes from the Coalition but the Greens take votes from the left.

Your other argument is very thin. Oakeshott turned down the ministerial post and Abbott was offering more.

Yes, they can do what they want. I'm talking ethically. If you speak ethically, they should have either went with the preferences of their constituents or the preferences of the general population.

I don't care which party offered what, the plain truth is that OUR taxes were used as a bargaining chip for the party that wanted power the most.

Labor/Liberal. I don't care. We should be back at the polls.

I'm sorry but I just think your general argument is paper thin. There is nothing unethical about the way they acted. They didn't stand as Coalition candidates nor have they joined the ALP post election.

Preference of their electorate? The majority of them voted against the Coalition candidate. They elected an independent who then acted as deemed appropriate.

Preference of the general population? At last count the ALP was ahead on 2PP but regardless plenty of parties have formed governments with less than 2PP of the vote. These kind of meaningless stats are only mentioned when it suits the argument of the person bring them up.

The election is over - everyone has to deal with the outcome and see what happens next…

 

[hammertime]

I'm sorry but I just think your general argument is paper thin. There is nothing unethical about the way they acted. They didn't stand as Coalition candidates nor have they joined the ALP post election.

Preference of their electorate? The majority of them voted against the Coalition candidate. They elected an independent who then acted as deemed appropriate.

Preference of the general population? At last count the ALP was ahead on 2PP but regardless plenty of parties have formed governments with less than 2PP of the vote. These kind of meaningless stats are only mentioned when it suits the argument of the person bring them up.

The election is over - everyone has to deal with the outcome and see what happens next…

Nah mate, your argument is paper thin. The majority of these guys were ex-nationals and the seats are heavily liberal. Their voters are liberal. Do you think they would have even gathered momentum to get voted in as a independent if they didn't have prior main party allegiances?

The fact is, these guys were BOUGHT by one side or another with tax payers dollars. It is an appalling example of what democracy can come down to. Where the wishes of the general population are ignored for the whims of a few people.

I guarantee that these guys will be crucified in their electorates for their actions if we went back to the polls.

 

[Citizen_Tiger]

2PP was 50.01-49.99 which possibly includes Nationals votes in WA even though they aren't part of the Coalition.
Seats finished 72-72
In the divisions of the independents the majority voted against the Coalition candidates.

So let's cut the crap and deal with some reality hey?

Who mentioned two party preferred? What does '700,000 more Australians' have to do with the preferential voting system? And you know it wasn't 700, 000, as at 16/9/2010, 9am its 658,925\. That's 658,925 more people that have voted for the coalition. Its not arguable, it's a fact.

In the seats of the Independents the clear cut position was and is that the Labor party polled poorly. In Oakeshott's electorate nearly three times as many votes were polled for the National Party, as for Labor. In Windsor's New England electorate it's three times as many as well. It's not arguable it's a fact.

We have the great majority of the primary vote in favour of the coalition, 16 lost Labor seats, a minority of seats in Government and a Prime Minister that's been sworn in twice, without having ever been elected. Not to mention two Independents who clearly didn't take a decent look at the messages coming from their constituents.

There's some of the 'reality' that you're so fond of and start playing the ball, not the man

 

[Citizen_Tiger]

now thats its all over red rover this is latest counting ..

Coalition Votes Percentage % Swing %
Australian Labor Party 5,921,802 50.08 -2.62
Liberal/National Coalition 5,902,097 49.92 +2.62
\
\
labor is ahead in two party preferred by 20,000 votes. no noise mr abbot !!

The current state of the primary vote is :-

Coaliton 5,370,301

Labor 4,711, 376

From the ABC website

And if we didn't have preferential voting that would be important.

Apparently it's important to 658,000 more Australians

 

[Citizen_Tiger]

It should have been important to the Independents if they were ethical. Not which party would give them a ministry and $10 billion dollars.

Nonsense. An independent MP can do whatever he/she likes. That's what makes them independent. The only conventions anyone has to work with is that preference should be given to the party with the most seats in the HoR. This was even. Besides FPV are largely meaningless in a preferential voting system, especially in Aust where there is no major right wing party to take votes from the Coalition but the Greens take votes from the left.

Your other argument is very thin. Oakeshott turned down the ministerial post and Abbott was offering more.

:laughing: 'Turned down a ministerial post' ? Why work your backside off on the front bench when you can become Speaker and cop an extra 100K? The transparency is side splitting …..been there for five minutes and now there's controversy over his vote during divisions. You just have to laugh at this circus, I give it 6 months, gear up for an April election

 

[Yossarian]

It should have been important to the Independents if they were ethical. Not which party would give them a ministry and $10 billion dollars.

Nonsense. An independent MP can do whatever he/she likes. That's what makes them independent. The only conventions anyone has to work with is that preference should be given to the party with the most seats in the HoR. This was even. Besides FPV are largely meaningless in a preferential voting system, especially in Aust where there is no major right wing party to take votes from the Coalition but the Greens take votes from the left.

Your other argument is very thin. Oakeshott turned down the ministerial post and Abbott was offering more.

:laughing: 'Turned down a ministerial post' ? Why work your backside off on the front bench when you can become Speaker and cop an extra 100K? The transparency is side splitting …..been there for five minutes and now there's controversy over his vote during divisions. You just have to laugh at this circus, I give it 6 months, gear up for an April election

Not sure why the laughter. He did turn it down, it's a matter of record. Him being a speaker does not really help Labor since there is an agreement for the Speaker and Deputy to have a pair. If it helps anyone it's the Libs.

I'm sorry if you see shadowy or devious conduct were there is none. It's politics. If Abbott could have done he would have in a heartbeat,

 

[Yossarian]

Apparently it's important to 658,000 more Australians

What did you speak to them about it? What a load of tripe. Primary votes have never played any part in the formation of government apart from their raw value in getting members elected.

It's an extremely thin argument to begin with - you either lack an understanding of Australian politics or you are ignoring its realities.

 

[Yossarian]

2PP was 50.01-49.99 which possibly includes Nationals votes in WA even though they aren't part of the Coalition.
Seats finished 72-72
In the divisions of the independents the majority voted against the Coalition candidates.

So let's cut the crap and deal with some reality hey?

Who mentioned two party preferred? What does '700,000 more Australians' have to do with the preferential voting system? And you know it wasn't 700, 000, as at 16/9/2010, 9am its 658,925\. That's 658,925 more people that have voted for the coalition. Its not arguable, it's a fact.

In the seats of the Independents the clear cut position was and is that the Labor party polled poorly. In Oakeshott's electorate nearly three times as many votes were polled for the National Party, as for Labor. In Windsor's New England electorate it's three times as many as well. It's not arguable it's a fact.

We have the great majority of the primary vote in favour of the coalition, 16 lost Labor seats, a minority of seats in Government and a Prime Minister that's been sworn in twice, without having ever been elected. Not to mention two Independents who clearly didn't take a decent look at the messages coming from their constituents.

There's some of the 'reality' that you're so fond of and start playing the ball, not the man

Where do we start…

Firstly, what the Coalition has in terms of primary is a plurality not a great majority or even a slight majority and that's a key difference.

Secondly the performance of other parties in Lyne etc is meaningless since a) we don't know the intention of the voters and b) they elected an independent by an overwhelming 2PP majority (I use the term 2PP for reasons of simplicity). We don't know the intention of Oakeshott voters, nobody does.

Thirdly, Prime Ministers are never elected in the sense you seem to think they are. A PM is the person who has the support of a majority of the House which Gillard has had on both occasions. All perfectly legal and in accordance with procedure.

Fourthly, any electorate who elects an independent has to deal with the consequences that entails. There's no second chance draw. If they wanted a National MP they could easily have voted National.

Fifthly, 2PP figures are mentioned because those figures decide who wins seats, not primary votes.

Lastly, when have I played the man? I don't believe I have attacked you or anyone else in this thread personally. Your arguments yes but that works both ways now doesn't it?

 

[Geo]

Ouside of reality for a bit …I always thought it was unfair that Labor has to go up against 2 parties.....If it's Labor v Libs V Nationals...

Julia wins....wooooooooo...