Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

[hammertime]

Keneally is so bad it's not funny. She really has no connection to the public. I can't understand how she is still getting 25% of the primary vote? Is there that many people who don't watch the news or read the paper?

I think everyone wants to help out QLD! Even from an economic perspective, it's a very smart thing to repair and repair quickly. But I have to say, I know with a lot of my mates that there is a lot of angst that the core taxpayers are footing the bill for so much waste, mismanagement and things we don't really need. Labor need to cut the fat from somewhere. For god sake, as one example, these guys gave the independents $10billion to buy government. Surely they can just cut those projects?

We also running danger of the country keeps putting things on the wealthy, people usually in the top brackets easy stop paying tax here. I have one mate that was on $300k p.a. move to Hong Kong purely because of the tax rate. Everyone is all for fairness, but at some point, you create Paul Hogans and Rupert Murdochs who decide to take up citizenship elsewhere. It's getting close to that.

Just as an example, the top 10% of taxpayers will pay 90% of this levy.

The NBN, which will become a white elephant will personally cost me around $12k. To pay for myself and others. Now, what commercial things will be possible that we don't have now? There is a reason why the Americans have always been the greatest innovators, they don't dumb it down and think what ticks the boxes for the best specs, but what possibilities will it open up. Obama rattled off a list of new inventions that they are going to create with fast wireless. Where as, with the NBN, we just get the 'we haven't dreamed of the possibilities' and that concerns me greatly. I really hope this gives us cause to reexamine it and axe it.

There is no question about fixing QLD. But I really hope this the trigger to get the population and Labor to start to look at how reckless they have been with other peoples money. A levy shouldn't be needed.

 

[system]

See I will be unpopular and openly admit I am against the flood levy and actually support the request from the NSW Premier even if I do so for different reasons.

Firstly we should use one major existing resource in the rebuilding of infrastructure. That being the armed forces. We have corps of engineers and more than enough manpower sitting relatively idle at this point in time. Deploy them and start the rebuilding. They will do the job the right way the first time without the delightful amount of waste and price gouging that comes through that process.

Secondly I am all for using tax dollars to rebuild communities that were inundated such as Toowoomba and also the areas that were going through their third flood in 3 months. That makes sense. What I am not a fan of is any plan that will see every tom dick and harry unisured in the Brisbane area rebuild or refit if they had zero insurance. Sorry you gambled and you lost in a big way. You live in a established flood plane the taxpayers of this country owe you zero handouts. I would not however be adverse to low interest loans being given in that circumstance as it would allow rebuilding, aid in the stimulation of the building sector whilst not being a hand out. It would be aid that gets repaid. As a side not an average should be taken of trade prices in the lead up to the crisis and that median should be set at the maximum acceptable rate. Thos caught gouging should have their license of trade revoked.

I agree that the NBN should be delayed to allow the extra funds to be resourced and no levy should be imposed. It gives a perfect political backdoor to walk away from the NBN without the ability to be attacked on a party level.

Also I agree with the end result of the NSW Premiers point. Take cost of living out of the equation as that is a stupid argument. However we are a State, as far as I am aware the only State, that has more than 50% of it's collected GST distributed to every other State and Territory to build hospitals, pay nurses, maintain arterial roads etc etc. Our infrastructure is on its way out the back door at a rapid rate of decline and to slug us again is utterly unacceptable.

As I said probably unpopular but I don't care, prudent governance is not about bleeding hearts and popularity

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

See I will be unpopular and openly admit I am against the flood levy and actually support the request from the NSW Premier even if I do so for different reasons.

Firstly we should use one major existing resource in the rebuilding of infrastructure. That being the armed forces. We have corps of engineers and more than enough manpower sitting relatively idle at this point in time. Deploy them and start the rebuilding. They will do the job the right way the first time without the delightful amount of waste and price gouging that comes through that process.

Secondly I am all for using tax dollars to rebuild communities that were inundated such as Toowoomba and also the areas that were going through their third flood in 3 months. That makes sense. What I am not a fan of is any plan that will see every tom d*** and harry unisured in the Brisbane area rebuild or refit if they had zero insurance. Sorry you gambled and you lost in a big way. You live in a established flood plane the taxpayers of this country owe you zero handouts. I would not however be adverse to low interest loans being given in that circumstance as it would allow rebuilding, aid in the stimulation of the building sector whilst not being a hand out. It would be aid that gets repaid. As a side not an average should be taken of trade prices in the lead up to the crisis and that median should be set at the maximum acceptable rate. Thos caught gouging should have their license of trade revoked.

I agree that the NBN should be delayed to allow the extra funds to be resourced and no levy should be imposed. It gives a perfect political backdoor to walk away from the NBN without the ability to be attacked on a party level.

Also I agree with the end result of the NSW Premiers point. Take cost of living out of the equation as that is a stupid argument. However we are a State, as far as I am aware the only State, that has more than 50% of it's collected GST distributed to every other State and Territory to build hospitals, pay nurses, maintain arterial roads etc etc. Our infrastructure is on its way out the back door at a rapid rate of decline and to slug us again is utterly unacceptable.

As I said probably unpopular but I don't care, prudent governance is not about bleeding hearts and popularity

All fair points Smeg. If anyone was uninsured, unfortunately they shouldn't be compensated with taxpayer dollars for their lack of foresight. I would encourage all taxpayer dollars all go back to repairing essential state services and all those who had taken out insurance will unfortunately have to bide their time until their claims clear. The NBN is a ridiculous waste of money and should be put to death and have the funds redistributed into more viable policy.

The redistribution of our GST dollars to the other states is woeful. That needs to be remedied. NSW is going to the wall (Labor are every bit responsible for that,) and to have tax dollars collected from this state and distributed to other states with a fraction of the population is laughable.

 

[hammertime]

See I will be unpopular and openly admit I am against the flood levy and actually support the request from the NSW Premier even if I do so for different reasons.

Firstly we should use one major existing resource in the rebuilding of infrastructure. That being the armed forces. We have corps of engineers and more than enough manpower sitting relatively idle at this point in time. Deploy them and start the rebuilding. They will do the job the right way the first time without the delightful amount of waste and price gouging that comes through that process.

Secondly I am all for using tax dollars to rebuild communities that were inundated such as Toowoomba and also the areas that were going through their third flood in 3 months. That makes sense. What I am not a fan of is any plan that will see every tom d*** and harry unisured in the Brisbane area rebuild or refit if they had zero insurance. Sorry you gambled and you lost in a big way. You live in a established flood plane the taxpayers of this country owe you zero handouts. I would not however be adverse to low interest loans being given in that circumstance as it would allow rebuilding, aid in the stimulation of the building sector whilst not being a hand out. It would be aid that gets repaid. As a side not an average should be taken of trade prices in the lead up to the crisis and that median should be set at the maximum acceptable rate. Thos caught gouging should have their license of trade revoked.

I agree that the NBN should be delayed to allow the extra funds to be resourced and no levy should be imposed. It gives a perfect political backdoor to walk away from the NBN without the ability to be attacked on a party level.

Also I agree with the end result of the NSW Premiers point. Take cost of living out of the equation as that is a stupid argument. However we are a State, as far as I am aware the only State, that has more than 50% of it's collected GST distributed to every other State and Territory to build hospitals, pay nurses, maintain arterial roads etc etc. Our infrastructure is on its way out the back door at a rapid rate of decline and to slug us again is utterly unacceptable.

As I said probably unpopular but I don't care, prudent governance is not about bleeding hearts and popularity

Very well said Smeg. Completely agree on your points. Especially the insurance argument. Most of the owners would have saved several hundred thousands on the purchase price because it's in the flood zone. It's unfair on those who do take the right precautions.

I noticed several of the homes in the flood areas were built up high and this probably should have been enforced by the local council across the board.

I really do hope it gives them the reason to walk away from the NBN. But it won't. The only hope is a double dissolution with the levy. But the independents won't have the guts for that.

 

[cunno]

We should be helping Australians in need first and if need be ask questions later. So many Australian families have had their lives turned upside down I can't see any choice but to help.

 

[tig_prmz]

I am not much into politics atm coz I have other things to worry about but I do have a lot of interest in it.

I was discussing the flood levy with my dad the other day and some good points came up. This levy will do nothing but divide Australia into whether they want it to be every state for themselves or all states come together and form a united Australia. Sooner or later, I reckon if the levy is confirmed by the parliament, then there will be protests from working class families if it's just a tad unfair to them.

I like the idea of charity games like the legends of origin etc. games where people will spend a lot of money but ofcourse not as much as the flood levy Gillard proposed. QLD over the past year has done quite well with tourism and I think it's time for them to bank out some cash.

I just don't feel it's fair to impose this levy on all Australians.

 

[Yossarian]

I am not much into politics atm coz I have other things to worry about but I do have a lot of interest in it.

I was discussing the flood levy with my dad the other day and some good points came up. This levy will do nothing but divide Australia into whether they want it to be every state for themselves or all states come together and form a united Australia. Sooner or later, I reckon if the levy is confirmed by the parliament, then there will be protests from working class families if it's just a tad unfair to them.

I like the idea of charity games like the legends of origin etc. games where people will spend a lot of money but ofcourse not as much as the flood levy Gillard proposed. QLD over the past year has done quite well with tourism and I think it's time for them to bank out some cash.

I just don't feel it's fair to impose this levy on all Australians.

Cost them more to get to the protest than the levy. $1-$5 a week to rebuild half the country is going to cause protests?

Fair dinkum…

 

[Yossarian]

Keneally is so bad it's not funny. She really has no connection to the public. I can't understand how she is still getting 25% of the primary vote? Is there that many people who don't watch the news or read the paper?

I think everyone wants to help out QLD! Even from an economic perspective, it's a very smart thing to repair and repair quickly. But I have to say, I know with a lot of my mates that there is a lot of angst that the core taxpayers are footing the bill for so much waste, mismanagement and things we don't really need. Labor need to cut the fat from somewhere. For god sake, as one example, these guys gave the independents $10billion to buy government. Surely they can just cut those projects?

We also running danger of the country keeps putting things on the wealthy, people usually in the top brackets easy stop paying tax here. I have one mate that was on $300k p.a. move to Hong Kong purely because of the tax rate. Everyone is all for fairness, but at some point, you create Paul Hogans and Rupert Murdochs who decide to take up citizenship elsewhere. It's getting close to that.

Just as an example, the top 10% of taxpayers will pay 90% of this levy.

The NBN, which will become a white elephant will personally cost me around $12k. To pay for myself and others. Now, what commercial things will be possible that we don't have now? There is a reason why the Americans have always been the greatest innovators, they don't dumb it down and think what ticks the boxes for the best specs, but what possibilities will it open up. Obama rattled off a list of new inventions that they are going to create with fast wireless. Where as, with the NBN, we just get the 'we haven't dreamed of the possibilities' and that concerns me greatly. I really hope this gives us cause to reexamine it and axe it.

There is no question about fixing QLD. But I really hope this the trigger to get the population and Labor to start to look at how reckless they have been with other peoples money. A levy shouldn't be needed.

Hoges wasn't paying tax anywhere but he's still an Australian citizen. He's also damn lucky the Wickenby people pulled up stumps when they did. In anycase if the cost of keeping these "loyal citizens" (well Rupert dropped his citizenship to make money in TV not to avoid tax) is ending up with an American tax system then I'm not agreeable to that. No universal health care, PBS, subsidised tertiary education? No thanks.

And I have little or no sympathy for your friend on 300k who think he's getting stiffed paying 40% income tax. He can bugger off as far as I'm concerned if living on 160k is too much of an ordeal. Best of luck to him in Honkers - he can think about people who are wondering where there next meal is coming from back home…

 

[stryker]

I dont think its fair that high earners should pay a cent more than those on minimum wage.

The government has a heap of money collected from all of us that it is wasting everyday on the BER and the NBN. If we had a referendum on this issue I'm positive that the majority would vote for some of this money to be spent on the re-building of towns and cities after natural disasters rather than flushed down the drain with these stupid initiatives.

I agree with Smeg, that this coin should be used in the form of no/low interest loans to help re-build these towns but strongly object to a levy and a call for those of wealthy status to shoulder the burden yet again.

 

[Yossarian]

I dont think its fair that high earners should pay a cent more than those on minimum wage.

A cent more or a percent more?

 

[redemption]

I dont think its fair that high earners should pay a cent more than those on minimum wage.

The government has a heap of money collected from all of us that it is wasting everyday on the BER and the NBN. If we had a referendum on this issue I'm positive that the majority would vote for some of this money to be spent on the re-building of towns and cities after natural disasters rather than flushed down the drain with these stupid initiatives.

I agree with Smeg, that this coin should be used in the form of no/low interest loans to help re-build these towns but strongly object to a levy and a call for those of wealthy status to shoulder the burden yet again.

That is the nature of taxation in the WORLD (aside from the US - and the so-called rich have virtually bankrupted that economy)!!!

The more you earn - the higher percentage you pay - and I find it hard to argue against!!

In my life I have sat on both sides of that divide - & I know when earning more the extra slug is relatively easily accommodated - while at the lower end - every single dollar counts!

But the main issue is what sort of bloke wants to question the need to contribute to a $20-50 billion recovery effort!!

As for the NBN - if contracts are signed (as they have been) - abandoning (what is a questionable project) will only cost the taxpayer more for nothing (as per the the Rozelle/Balmain Leagues rail-link)!!

The Comnmonwealth would be up for billions in liquidated damages for zero infrastructural benefit!!

 

[stryker]

Dont presume to know anything about me red, I'm not in the same league of big noting as you are my friend!

Imposing a levy negates the good will already shown by millions of Australians.

 

[hammertime]

Keneally is so bad it's not funny. She really has no connection to the public. I can't understand how she is still getting 25% of the primary vote? Is there that many people who don't watch the news or read the paper?

I think everyone wants to help out QLD! Even from an economic perspective, it's a very smart thing to repair and repair quickly. But I have to say, I know with a lot of my mates that there is a lot of angst that the core taxpayers are footing the bill for so much waste, mismanagement and things we don't really need. Labor need to cut the fat from somewhere. For god sake, as one example, these guys gave the independents $10billion to buy government. Surely they can just cut those projects?

We also running danger of the country keeps putting things on the wealthy, people usually in the top brackets easy stop paying tax here. I have one mate that was on $300k p.a. move to Hong Kong purely because of the tax rate. Everyone is all for fairness, but at some point, you create Paul Hogans and Rupert Murdochs who decide to take up citizenship elsewhere. It's getting close to that.

Just as an example, the top 10% of taxpayers will pay 90% of this levy.

The NBN, which will become a white elephant will personally cost me around $12k. To pay for myself and others. Now, what commercial things will be possible that we don't have now? There is a reason why the Americans have always been the greatest innovators, they don't dumb it down and think what ticks the boxes for the best specs, but what possibilities will it open up. Obama rattled off a list of new inventions that they are going to create with fast wireless. Where as, with the NBN, we just get the 'we haven't dreamed of the possibilities' and that concerns me greatly. I really hope this gives us cause to reexamine it and axe it.

There is no question about fixing QLD. But I really hope this the trigger to get the population and Labor to start to look at how reckless they have been with other peoples money. A levy shouldn't be needed.

Hoges wasn't paying tax anywhere but he's still an Australian citizen. He's also damn lucky the Wickenby people pulled up stumps when they did. In anycase if the cost of keeping these "loyal citizens" (well Rupert dropped his citizenship to make money in TV not to avoid tax) is ending up with an American tax system then I'm not agreeable to that. No universal health care, PBS, subsidised tertiary education? No thanks.

And I have little or no sympathy for your friend on 300k who think he's getting stiffed paying 40% income tax. He can bugger off as far as I'm concerned if living on 160k is too much of an ordeal. Best of luck to him in Honkers - he can think about people who are wondering where there next meal is coming from back home…

Hoges is 'domiciled' in the US for tax purposes. He was paying duel tax for a while there but decided to stop paying tax in Australia years ago. Yes, Rupert also moved for business purposes. But where you 'domicile' can be easily manipulated. It says degrees about our system that he chose the US. He could have still done the same business activities without calling the US his primary country of residence.

No one want's to end up with the US system and I think the Aussie tax system is fair when it's spent like it should be. I for one am happy paying my fair share. But when the people who pay the majority of tax have their money handed out to every joe blogg to buy a plasma, dodgy contractor or spent on massive untested projects and then they are asked to foot further bills, it entices some very strong anger. That anger translates into less higher-end taxpayers and more burden on the working class.

As the saucy Margret Thatcher once said. 'The problem with Labor governments is that they eventually run out of other peoples money'. I for one am getting very sick of policy on the run and seeing my money being thrown down the drain.

QLD needs help. But we have so much current spending fat, it's not funny. Use the $10bil Gillard threw around to buy power from the independents for gods sake!

 

[hammertime]

That is the nature of taxation in the WORLD (aside from the US - and the so-called rich have virtually bankrupted that economy)!!!

The more you earn - the higher percentage you pay - and I find it hard to argue against!!

In my life I have sat on both sides of that divide - & I know when earning more the extra slug is relatively easily accommodated - while at the lower end - every single dollar counts!

But the main issue is what sort of bloke wants to question the need to contribute to a $20-50 billion recovery effort!!

As for the NBN - if contracts are signed (as they have been) - abandoning (what is a questionable project) will only cost the taxpayer more for nothing (as per the the Rozelle/Balmain Leagues rail-link)!!

The Comnmonwealth would be up for billions in liquidated damages for zero infrastructural benefit!!

Red - as much as I would like to agree with Stryker, and I usually do, I agree that we need a tiered system of tax. It's the fair way of taxation. But it does induce more reckless government because you suddenly have the 90% of people who won't pay a large tax bill, wasting the money of the 10% who do pay the large amount of tax. e.g. The NBN would not be happening if we had a flat tax rate because suddenly those 90% would have been up for a lot of cash. Of course people are going to say they want it if they don't have to pay for it. You give them the same proposal and ask for $4000 and you'll get a different answer.

The contracts for the NBN haven't been signed Red, only for Tasmania. Telstra haven't voted yet on the government purchase of their existing infrastructure. Once that is done, contracts will be signed.

I don't think I've heard anyone question the need to pay for the recovery effort. Not only as a sympathetic human being, but it makes smart economic sense to get QLD producing again quickly. The only question is where to get the money from. With how much the government has thrown around, and continues to, it really needs to come from cuts. They could stop the BER and refocus the efforts, scrap the NBN, localise foreign aid etc. There is too much bloat in the budget (which also, is helping inflation) for Labor to throw on a tax now.

 

[system]

Even paying a high tax bracket I believe the system is a meritous one.

Problem being once you get to the echelons of true wealth they end up paying less tax percentage than many regular income earners because of side deals done with the governments of the past 30 odd years

 

[stryker]

No one want's to end up with the US system and I think the Aussie tax system is fair when it's spent like it should be. I for one am happy paying my fair share. But when the people who pay the majority of tax have their money handed out to every joe blogg to buy a plasma, dodgy contractor or spent on massive untested projects and then they are asked to foot further bills, it entices some very strong anger. That anger translates into less higher-end taxpayers and more burden on the working class.

I am all for a tiered tax system, its what Ive been used to forever and I for the most part dont dodge that responsibility.

I am opposed to Gillards levy being tiered as I'm sick of constantly being told I should contribute more as I have been reasonably successful at work. As you have rightly pointed out Hammer, we pay a lot of money each year and it really ticks you off to see it fluttered away so brazenly.

Its not the cost that upsets me, its the inferance that it's my responsibility to pay more because I earn more than some others.

I've already donated quite unselfishly to this tradgedy….it's time for the government to do the same.

 

[redemption]

Dont presume to know anything about me red, I'm not in the same league of big noting as you are my friend!

Imposing a levy negates the good will already shown by millions of Australians.

Far from big noting mate - I am far from wealthy - but have had some good years that placed me in a relatively high tax bracket -and many others when I have been at the lower end of the scale!

I am all for good-will but this is the worst natural disaster to hit the economy EVER! It requires more than just good-will to get us back on track!

The damage is done in regards to the BER, NBN & other stimulus spending - but that is that nature of four-year term democracy - the future is ignored in favour of making hay while the sun shines!

(PS - I was typing angry this morning so I've chilled out and in no way am I suggesting you are being uncharitable! Cheers!

 

[Yossarian]

@hammertime:

Hoges is 'domiciled' in the US for tax purposes. He was paying duel tax for a while there but decided to stop paying tax in Australia years ago. Yes, Rupert also moved for business purposes. But where you 'domicile' can be easily manipulated. It says degrees about our system that he chose the US. He could have still done the same business activities without calling the US his primary country of residence.

That's not entirely true. He changed citizenship because he was worried about Fox being declared a foreign owned media company. As it turned out the FCC (or whoever made the final decision) said News was an Australian company despite what Rupert had done but that the competition benefits made up for that.

Yeah Hoges is domiciled in the US - perhaps we're working at cross purposes. I thought you were suggesting he had taken up US citizenship. Anyway the bloke relies on his public image to disguise the fact he's one of the biggest tax cheats in Australian history.

 

[hammertime]

The damage is done in regards to the BER, NBN & other stimulus spending - but that is that nature of four-year term democracy - the future is ignored in favour of making hay while the sun shines!

These schemes are still going on mate. That's the crazy thing. The economy has recovered and unemployment is reasonably low so continuing with these schemes just drives inflation and interest rates. This is inflation on top of the inflation that will be hitting our grocery baskets very shortly with QLD out of the game.

Also, with unemployment so low, you end up paying more for skilled workers and overspending on schemes. The best thing to do is save the money for when you need to give people jobs, or in this case, repair vital infrastructure.

In that respect, they can achieve 3 things by cutting back spending

- Reduce pressure on inflation and Interest Rates
- Capital will be freed up to repair QLD and reduce our debt.
- and; avoid the tax so you aren't putting any unnecessary pressure on families who already are dealing with high interest and inflation.

These guys really ignore the fundamentals for their own personal satisfaction. I really think they just like spending peoples money so they can get their names on plaques! For god sake, look at the photo Conroy took on the link below. Our taxes probably paid for that. They are really getting on my goat.

http://www.theage.com.au/technology/technology-news/nbn-bill-passes-senate-20101126-189we.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[hammertime]

Hoges is 'domiciled' in the US for tax purposes. He was paying duel tax for a while there but decided to stop paying tax in Australia years ago. Yes, Rupert also moved for business purposes. But where you 'domicile' can be easily manipulated. It says degrees about our system that he chose the US. He could have still done the same business activities without calling the US his primary country of residence.

That's not entirely true. He changed citizenship because he was worried about Fox being declared a foreign owned media company. As it turned out the FCC (or whoever made the final decision) said News was an Australian company despite what Rupert had done but that the competition benefits made up for that.

Yeah Hoges is domiciled in the US - perhaps we're working at cross purposes. I thought you were suggesting he had taken up US citizenship. Anyway the bloke relies on his public image to disguise the fact he's one of the biggest tax cheats in Australian history.

I think we are working at cross purposes mate. Citizenship is one thing, but for tax you can influence the 'domiciliary' test to determine where to pay tax. I really don't know the whole Hoges story, but to me, it sounded like he had paid a packet and messed up on a technicality.

My point overall though is the government has to be careful about how hard to hit the top tax payers. I mean, even environmental rebates are means tested by Labor.

I would just like for them to realize that they were so shortsighted to spend the rainy day fund and more and just fix it themselves rather than asking for more money. Halls won't improve educational outcomes, faster broadband won't create new innovations. They need to stop creating debt for us now.